On December 14 2011 19:28 tribulator wrote: Remember that time Idra just left the game without even trying anything the minute Jinro started building a bunker outside his expansion in the GSL ro8? Hell, he didn't even try to a-move his workers.
Edit: Wait, rewatched it, he did kinda a-moved his workers and 2 lings, but then left. And it was his ramp, my bad.
I think he should get banned for that if we're going to ban for shit like this.
There was no way IdrA could win from that position. 2 bunker block at the ramp and close positions metalopolis is the reason why maps were changed so there was a neutral supply depot and close spawns were removed.
On December 14 2011 19:37 Polarexia wrote: When Mr. Chae said that bullshit about wanting "progamers" and not prize money hunters or whatever did he ever bother to look into why Stephano is playing?
Every Pro-gamer plays this game for the money, it's not just Stephano. I think the "prize money hunter" -term is a either misleading or incorrectly translated.
At least Stephano would have played his match in Naniwas situation. Pretty sure about that.
What's the difference between this and what Naniwa did? The fact that it was longer than a minute? Why should that matter?
On December 14 2011 19:37 Polarexia wrote: When Mr. Chae said that bullshit about wanting "progamers" and not prize money hunters or whatever did he ever bother to look into why Stephano is playing?
Calling Naniwa an "amateur prize money hunter" on air as the figurehead of a tournament is rather abusive and BM in my eyes. He should've phrased that differently. Now he just lost any moral highground that he had.
He should compose himself and be a bit more professional, not just lay into him like he's sending him some vitriol filled personal rant. Also it's incredibly rude and hypocritical when almost all the top koreans traveled to providence for the money.
On December 14 2011 18:56 Confuse wrote: To all the people announcing you won't pay for GSL anymore: There are probably more viewers who were offended enough by what Nani did to say the same thing if he was still invited. It was probably a correct business decision. With that said, strict professionalism in BW (as ridiculous as it was) worked, I'm sure some discipline won't hurt the SC2 community.
I just can't comprehend how someone could be offended by the Naniwa vs Nestea game.
because you don't care enough about the sc2 esports growing potential is why you dont understand, if you did you would be offended. He needs to grow up and when invited to one of the biggest tournaments of the year. YOU PLAY YOUR HEART OUT NO MATTER WHAT. If hes not punished then he possibly could do it again in something to do with code s if he goes down 1-0 he just throws the match because he wants to go home and cry
There are numerous examples of people NOT playing their heart out no matter what in high profile tournemants. This includes Idra btw, who has just been invited for unclear reasons into code S.
BECAUSE you are being completely IGNORANT to the korean culture and pro gaming. They CANNOT show weakness on this issue with the background issues they have had lately in the industry. Pro gaming is a SPORT in korea its televised, its still growing, THEY are trying to still GET fans from brood war to come over to Sc2 and dont need some little brat not even giving them a show to get fans to pay for PRIZES that naniwa needs to even have anything to play for.
So...why haven't they taken action against Choya, Byun or Coca? Who have done far worse things than Nani? Please do explain, since you know so much about Korean culture.
Probably because what naniwa did was more visible even if it was much less severe than what choya did (purposefully cheating the system).
I'd argue that what Choya did wasn't purposefully cheating the system, it was childish and immature and him thinking it was perfectly fine at that time because he didn't do anything but make sure he got placed where the actual system meant for him to be (skill wise), and it was just meaningless ladder (as we all refer to it).
Much like I think what Naniwa did was childish and immature.
I'd argue that ladder actually has more meaning than that game did.
On December 14 2011 18:56 Confuse wrote: To all the people announcing you won't pay for GSL anymore: There are probably more viewers who were offended enough by what Nani did to say the same thing if he was still invited. It was probably a correct business decision. With that said, strict professionalism in BW (as ridiculous as it was) worked, I'm sure some discipline won't hurt the SC2 community.
I just can't comprehend how someone could be offended by the Naniwa vs Nestea game.
because you don't care enough about the sc2 esports growing potential is why you dont understand, if you did you would be offended. He needs to grow up and when invited to one of the biggest tournaments of the year. YOU PLAY YOUR HEART OUT NO MATTER WHAT. If hes not punished then he possibly could do it again in something to do with code s if he goes down 1-0 he just throws the match because he wants to go home and cry
There are numerous examples of people NOT playing their heart out no matter what in high profile tournemants. This includes Idra btw, who has just been invited for unclear reasons into code S.
BECAUSE you are being completely IGNORANT to the korean culture and pro gaming. They CANNOT show weakness on this issue with the background issues they have had lately in the industry. Pro gaming is a SPORT in korea its televised, its still growing, THEY are trying to still GET fans from brood war to come over to Sc2 and dont need some little brat not even giving them a show to get fans to pay for PRIZES that naniwa needs to even have anything to play for.
Why do you type like that?
i was wondering exactly the same thing :/ the capitalized words don't seem to make sense emphasized :/
On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote: "During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter
I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive."
And I see you as a selfish egotist that will probably bring about armageddon single-handedly. That doesn't make it so. There was a huge backlash, both in Korea and the foreigner scene. Your single opinion doesn't negate that fact.
I'm kind of curious, do people like you expect players to just start putting on shows, and instead of being actual professionals becoming purely entertainers. Common sense would say that there was really nothing to gain from the game with nestea, so people essentially are pissed because Naniwa didn't see the point as just trying to go out and act like the game mattered, at what point are people going to realize they're just treading the line before playing a game professionally to compete, and playing a game to just entertain people despite it's lack of significance.
So we should not expect F1 drivers to not bother to race on the last day of the race if it dosen't matter anymore? So the driver is justified in just leaving after the first lap of the race since he dosen't feel like it? I don't understand why everyone says its the tournaments fault for having meaningless games when EVERY PROFESSIONAL SPORTS LEAGUE IN THE WORLD has such meaningless games.
All of us want E-sports to be considered legitimate. To make it professional, you have to enforce such rules. Harsh for Naniwa though, a warning would have been good enough.
Some players may not like the format. You give proper feedback, not throw away the game...
But there's nothing professional about an organization saying that if you don't try 100% in every game despite the fact that it may be meaningless, we will ban you from our organization. That type of format is just pretty much forcing players to cater to viewers in situations like the naniwa nestea one, and actually pretty much pushing them in the direction of providing entertainment rather than competition. If the game is pointless, you're pretty much forced to attempt some sort of resemblance of a game, and at this point it becomes more forced acting rather than competitive play.
If a national team refused to play a match in the world cup in soccer because 'we are already out' I guarantee that they would be punished. Or in the premier league. Or in any decent sized sport.
There's a complete difference between what naniwa did and what you're suggesting. Naniwa showed up for the game, he started the game he did a horrible strat that he likely didn't think would win, but in the end it didn't matter. If Naniwa just straight up and refused to play it would be different even then, it still asks the argument. Yes they might be punished but it creates the argument and question, do these leagues and often times sports create situations where they force someone into an almost entertainment role or face some sort of punishment, which is almost anti competitiveness.
On December 14 2011 19:40 theBALLS wrote: GOGO IDRA AND SEN! Having people who respect their host country playing in GSL is just so much more refreshing.
Yep and even if you don't like Idra's attitude online, you've to say that he was an humble representant of the US in the GSL, his interview after his game versus Nada was really nice and manner
On December 14 2011 18:31 Grettin wrote: People seem to overlook that BOTH Idra and Sen has very large following, especially Idra and i would say Sen has pretty big following as well. (Taiwanese fans and such)
That is good enough reason for GOM to give them a Code S spot
Not when you argue you are all about professionalism and all that.
- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
That is the most ridiculous rule ever.
It might sound that way to us gamers, but its in just about every sport. Many examples can be found where athletes do something detrimental enough to be suspended or fined (basically some form of punishment) from their respective leagues.
Except this case wasn't all that "detrimental".
When people compare this to other sports or other games remember that this game had nothing at stake. No points, no money, nothing.
It's playing playing a Bo7 where the opponent has already won 4 matches (why play the last 3 games when the opponent already won)?
I'm not saying what Naniwa did was right but this is no where as bad as people are making it out to be IMO. He should get a warning or something else rather than an outright ban and his Code S spot taken away.
I though it was detrimental because it lacked professionalism and respect but I agree that the punishment is too harsh.
And you want to take about tournament formatting - Naniwa was the one who accepted the tournament invite, he shouldnt revolt in the middle of it. If hes going to accept and invitational to a prestigious tournament like the Blizzard Cup, he should try to finish gracefully.
I agree but not that it was "detrimental" as people are making it out to be.
I do agree that GOM has the right and what Naniwa did was not sportsmanlike. What I meant to say that his view is reasonable considering both players were 0-3 (the match had no real meaning) but yet people are comparing this to something worse (for example match fixing in BW). The difference between this and other examples is that it doesn't change the outcome of the tournament and it was only one "show match game".
Again I just think the punishment was too harsh especially without warning or an "explicit" rule stating it (being unfit for a gamer is vague; they should give examples for it and detail penalties for not following it).
Agreed 100%. I honestly thought the punishment would have been a verbal slap on the wrist by GomTV lol. But they went overboard on punishing coca so I guess theyre atleast consistent -_-
GOM didn't punish Coca. SlayerS (his team) made him forfeit the Code S spot. It's possible that GOM would've done the same had they been given the opportunity, but there's no way to tell. And judging by the way they handled the Choya situation, it seems unlikely.
Thanks for the clarification, what was the Choya situation? I dont know what happened with him.
Choya win-trade on the ladder (by doing online rock-paper-scissors with his opponents to determine the winner), because it was the most time-efficient way to get MMR up. Now the ladder isn't GSL (similarly as to how the Korean Weekly tournament where Coca matchfixed was a different tournament), but GOM required a certain ladder rating before you could enter into the qualifiers. So in a way, Choya tried to cheat his way into the qualifiers.
He was punished by a "slap on the wrist", mostly. He had to apologize and was banned from the GSTL for 1 season, but there were no reprecussions for his GSL run.
What the heck is "online rock papers and scissors?"
On December 14 2011 18:56 Confuse wrote: To all the people announcing you won't pay for GSL anymore: There are probably more viewers who were offended enough by what Nani did to say the same thing if he was still invited. It was probably a correct business decision. With that said, strict professionalism in BW (as ridiculous as it was) worked, I'm sure some discipline won't hurt the SC2 community.
I just can't comprehend how someone could be offended by the Naniwa vs Nestea game.
because you don't care enough about the sc2 esports growing potential is why you dont understand, if you did you would be offended. He needs to grow up and when invited to one of the biggest tournaments of the year. YOU PLAY YOUR HEART OUT NO MATTER WHAT. If hes not punished then he possibly could do it again in something to do with code s if he goes down 1-0 he just throws the match because he wants to go home and cry
There are numerous examples of people NOT playing their heart out no matter what in high profile tournemants. This includes Idra btw, who has just been invited for unclear reasons into code S.
BECAUSE you are being completely IGNORANT to the korean culture and pro gaming. They CANNOT show weakness on this issue with the background issues they have had lately in the industry. Pro gaming is a SPORT in korea its televised, its still growing, THEY are trying to still GET fans from brood war to come over to Sc2 and dont need some little brat not even giving them a show to get fans to pay for PRIZES that naniwa needs to even have anything to play for.
So...why haven't they taken action against Choya, Byun or Coca? Who have done far worse things than Nani? Please do explain, since you know so much about Korean culture.
Probably because what naniwa did was more visible even if it was much less severe than what choya did (purposefully cheating the system).
I'd argue that what Choya did wasn't purposefully cheating the system, it was childish and immature and him thinking it was perfectly fine at that time because he didn't do anything but make sure he got placed where the actual system meant for him to be (skill wise), and it was just meaningless ladder (as we all refer to it).
Much like I think what Naniwa did was childish and immature.
I'd argue that ladder actually has more meaning than that game did.
I'd argue against you because of:
a) Hyped storyline b) Tons of viewers tuning in for that scheduled match c) GSL points being on the line d) Determining the loser of the group.
I probably missed something just because I've had to write it so many times.
On December 14 2011 19:19 Grettin wrote: "During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours." - Wolf @ Twitter
I dont see probe rushes to be "abusive."
And I see you as a selfish egotist that will probably bring about armageddon single-handedly. That doesn't make it so. There was a huge backlash, both in Korea and the foreigner scene. Your single opinion doesn't negate that fact.
I'm kind of curious, do people like you expect players to just start putting on shows, and instead of being actual professionals becoming purely entertainers. Common sense would say that there was really nothing to gain from the game with nestea, so people essentially are pissed because Naniwa didn't see the point as just trying to go out and act like the game mattered, at what point are people going to realize they're just treading the line before playing a game professionally to compete, and playing a game to just entertain people despite it's lack of significance.
So we should not expect F1 drivers to not bother to race on the last day of the race if it dosen't matter anymore? So the driver is justified in just leaving after the first lap of the race since he dosen't feel like it? I don't understand why everyone says its the tournaments fault for having meaningless games when EVERY PROFESSIONAL SPORTS LEAGUE IN THE WORLD has such meaningless games.
All of us want E-sports to be considered legitimate. To make it professional, you have to enforce such rules. Harsh for Naniwa though, a warning would have been good enough.
Some players may not like the format. You give proper feedback, not throw away the game...
But there's nothing professional about an organization saying that if you don't try 100% in every game despite the fact that it may be meaningless, we will ban you from our organization. That type of format is just pretty much forcing players to cater to viewers in situations like the naniwa nestea one, and actually pretty much pushing them in the direction of providing entertainment rather than competition. If the game is pointless, you're pretty much forced to attempt some sort of resemblance of a game, and at this point it becomes more forced acting rather than competitive play.
If a national team refused to play a match in the world cup in soccer because 'we are already out' I guarantee that they would be punished. Or in the premier league. Or in any decent sized sport.
There's a complete difference between what naniwa did and what you're suggesting. Naniwa showed up for the game, he started the game he did a horrible strat that he likely didn't think would win, but in the end it didn't matter. If Naniwa just straight up and refused to play it would be different even then, it still asks the argument. Yes they might be punished but it creates the argument and question, do these leagues and often times sports create situations where they force someone into an almost entertainment role or face some sort of punishment, which is almost anti competitiveness.
The equivalent of this for hockey would be pulling your goalie and not moving from the initial faceoff circle, letting them score at will for 60 minutes. Yah... theyd be fined to hell
On December 14 2011 18:56 Confuse wrote: To all the people announcing you won't pay for GSL anymore: There are probably more viewers who were offended enough by what Nani did to say the same thing if he was still invited. It was probably a correct business decision. With that said, strict professionalism in BW (as ridiculous as it was) worked, I'm sure some discipline won't hurt the SC2 community.
I just can't comprehend how someone could be offended by the Naniwa vs Nestea game.
because you don't care enough about the sc2 esports growing potential is why you dont understand, if you did you would be offended. He needs to grow up and when invited to one of the biggest tournaments of the year. YOU PLAY YOUR HEART OUT NO MATTER WHAT. If hes not punished then he possibly could do it again in something to do with code s if he goes down 1-0 he just throws the match because he wants to go home and cry
There are numerous examples of people NOT playing their heart out no matter what in high profile tournemants. This includes Idra btw, who has just been invited for unclear reasons into code S.
BECAUSE you are being completely IGNORANT to the korean culture and pro gaming. They CANNOT show weakness on this issue with the background issues they have had lately in the industry. Pro gaming is a SPORT in korea its televised, its still growing, THEY are trying to still GET fans from brood war to come over to Sc2 and dont need some little brat not even giving them a show to get fans to pay for PRIZES that naniwa needs to even have anything to play for.
So...why haven't they taken action against Choya, Byun or Coca? Who have done far worse things than Nani? Please do explain, since you know so much about Korean culture.
Probably because what naniwa did was more visible even if it was much less severe than what choya did (purposefully cheating the system).
I'd argue that what Choya did wasn't purposefully cheating the system, it was childish and immature and him thinking it was perfectly fine at that time because he didn't do anything but make sure he got placed where the actual system meant for him to be (skill wise), and it was just meaningless ladder (as we all refer to it).
Much like I think what Naniwa did was childish and immature.
I'd argue that ladder actually has more meaning than that game did.
I'd argue against you because of:
a) Hyped storyline b) Tons of viewers tuning in for that scheduled match c) GSL points being on the line d) Determining the loser of the group.
I probably missed something just because I've had to write it so many times.
Hope this stops all the stupid racist comments that are made.
Because HuK is always right, right? LOL And with this statement he says GOM are racists because they deal different with koreans and foreigners.
Then they've already been "racist" a long time ago with giving preferential treatment to foreigners in free seedings and placements. Stop with this racist bullshit. There's nothing racist going on here.
On December 14 2011 19:28 tribulator wrote: Remember that time Idra just left the game without even trying anything the minute Jinro started building a bunker outside his expansion in the GSL ro8? Hell, he didn't even try to a-move his workers.
Edit: Wait, rewatched it, he did kinda a-moved his workers and 2 lings, but then left. And it was his ramp, my bad.
I think he should get banned for that if we're going to ban for shit like this.
There was no way IdrA could win from that position. 2 bunker block at the ramp and close positions metalopolis is the reason why maps were changed so there was a neutral supply depot and close spawns were removed.
Also, his reaction forced a change so that all future maps in the GSL had a neutral supply depots there. So it was actually all to the good. Because before that, it wasn't clear to everyone that that gameplay was game breaking in a tournament in ZvT.
On December 14 2011 18:31 Grettin wrote: People seem to overlook that BOTH Idra and Sen has very large following, especially Idra and i would say Sen has pretty big following as well. (Taiwanese fans and such)
That is good enough reason for GOM to give them a Code S spot
Not when you argue you are all about professionalism and all that.
Yeah, that's a bullshit reason. If that is why GOM gave them the spot (and I am almost 100% sure it is) then GOM has lost a lot of my respect.
EPT
