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On December 14 2011 06:03 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:01 dibbaN wrote:
I remember IdrA throwing 3 games in a row vs MC. Few people in the scene made a big deal out of it. He got a lot of shit for it. It had a bunch of pages in the LR thread, his fan club and I'm pretty sure they talked about it on SotG.
also going on tilt and throwing matches is not quite the same. I remember that series and it was heartbreaking to watch... Yes he "threw" the games (as in he played badly), but he lost them because in his mind he was already defeated ("protoss imba" etc.). He didn't decide to 6 pool or worker rush. I think he tried roach ling all ins, or similar two base stuff. Not 2minutes rushes.
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On December 14 2011 06:06 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:53 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 05:35 MichaelJLowell wrote:On December 14 2011 04:55 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 04:53 Gabriel Verlaine wrote:On December 14 2011 04:50 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 04:41 Gabriel Verlaine wrote:On December 14 2011 04:34 Russano wrote:On December 14 2011 04:32 The_LiNk wrote:On December 14 2011 04:26 Sea_Food wrote:
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Naniwa was in pissed off, so there is a reason why he dosnt act respectfully.
And FYI. 300 spartans was not a documentary. 300 spartans never did kill 10 000 persians. If you havent stayed awake during history lessons, western nations give up before they have only 300 soldiers left. I don't think you understood my reference to 300 and the Spartans. I'm saying how Western culture seems to have some sort of value in fighting to the end because it's the honourable thing to do and how the lore of the Battle of Thermopylae is one of the most celebrated examples of this. Also I don't see how Naniwa being pissed off is an excuse to not act respectfully. Do Western parents really buy the candy for their child just because the child is having a temper tantrum? Yeah they do buy them the candy kinda often, and it really blows. But Naniwa sees the world differently, and probably didn't even conceive that it might be disrespectful. Im' sure he's totally shocked at how much hate he's getting for a fucking probe rush. Reading the interview I cannot see any sign of Naniwa being shocked, he still thinks he did nothing wrong, even if he denied the PAYING STARCRAFT2-FANS a game of NesTea. You think someone who's gonna play against Nestea is thinking about giving good games for the paying Nestea fans? No, they're thinking about winning the game regardless of how they do it. Naniwa, being the guy obsessed with winning that we all know, didn't care about a match that wouldn't decide anything, and acted accordingly. Blizzard Cup isn't a set of showmatches, they're not playing for your entertainment. They're playing to win. Money. A lot of it. It's not about NesTea Fans, read more careful! Well it's not about Naniwa's fans either, neither is about SC2 fans who paid for it. It's about the players only. It's their job. They make a living off of it. They don't need to give a shit about what the fans think, and some of them (like Naniwa) indeed don't give a shit. How do you think they make their living? They make their living by performing. The reason they get paid is that people pay to see the players perform. If they do not perform, they do not live up to their contractual obligations. That's why people get upset about this, just like people get upset when IdrA quits games and no-shows his matches. Not to mention the general grudge nature of the contest. Naniwa looks like the kid who told Nestea to meet him out in the schoolyard after class and cried "I don't want to fight anymore" after Nestea popped him in the jaw. And all of that would be appliable if he didn't play his match. He did. Just in a way you didn't like. Players don't have an obligation to play entertaining games, they have an obligation to play games. Whether they're entertaining or not it's for each person to decide. It's also the team's right to fire players who sully the reputation of the team, organization, or tournament, or intentionally play build orders and styles that lose games, and it's my right to call out players who piss away their god-given talent because they're butthurt about getting eliminated. I'm leveraging my side of the bargain and I won't be stunned when these teams (who don't exactly have the resources to provide paychecks to players that deliberately choose not to compete in their games) start leveraging their end.
Yes, you have the right to be pissed at this. Just don't go on thinking anyone gives a shit about it.
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Why are people getting mad about decisions that only a programer can make? You can't force players to not cheese....
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On December 14 2011 06:06 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:04 Paperplane wrote:On December 14 2011 06:01 Jibba wrote:On December 14 2011 05:57 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 05:56 Aro wrote:
How is this different from a sports team playing their bench in meaningless games? That's actually a really good analogy. Because the bench players actually give effort. Even going through the motions is more effort than this. The only thing really equivalent to this is W. Germany vs. Austria in '82 when the W. Germans just ran around aimlessly without even trying to play the match. They were reamed for it, by Germans too. If he really didn't want to play, they he simply should've not played. He wasn't being any more honest than other people. Don't quote me on this but I think he wasn't allowed to forfeit. What? They'd throw him in prison if he said he didn't want to play? Playing the game is a player's choice at ALL times. I am 100% sure Complexity would have PREFERRED him to just forfeit than this shitstorm...
... way to exaggerate of course they wouldn't throw him in prison.
they could just ban him from the gsl!
oh wait.. : D
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United States22883 Posts
On December 14 2011 06:06 GrungyMunchy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:01 Jibba wrote:On December 14 2011 05:57 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 05:56 Aro wrote:
How is this different from a sports team playing their bench in meaningless games? That's actually a really good analogy. Because the bench players actually give effort. Even going through the motions is more effort than this. The only thing really equivalent to this is W. Germany vs. Austria in '82 when the W. Germans just ran around aimlessly without even trying to play the match. They were reamed for it, by Germans too. If he really didn't want to play, they he simply should've not played. He wasn't being any more honest than other people. If the Germans didn't want to play, then they simply should've not played. Yet they did. Maybe they had to. Like Naniwa?
Why did he have to play? Is it a life or death contract?
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On December 14 2011 06:06 qwertyindeed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:56 Aro wrote:
How is this different from a sports team playing their bench in meaningless games? maybe because of the rivalry people were expecting a good game. For me, that's the game i was looking forward to. So as a fan, i am not happy since he is being selfish -imagine fans/a team are supporting this kid(some financially), who gets to travel around the world to play a game for a living-and he does not do it. IF its considered work and you don't treat it like that, then its just silly its like when you go work in an office or wherever and there is no work or little work to do. sometimes you just gotta look busy . everyone knows there is no work today but you cant go screwing around. (assume its paid hourly and boss wont let you go early  )
Not a team, a player. A player that goes into the outfield and makes 0 attempt at catching a fly ball gets kicked the fuck off the team... If he didn't want to play he didn't have to. He could have just told them he wanted to forfeit. NOBODY was physically forcing to play, there's just about 0% chance that there's a clause in his contract with Complexity that say he is never allowed to forfeit games...
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On December 14 2011 05:57 GrungyMunchy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:56 Aro wrote:
How is this different from a sports team playing their bench in meaningless games? That's actually a really good analogy.
because they still are at least playing the fucking game.
It's a terrible analogy.
You want an analogy? It would be like a sports team going out on to the field, and sitting down / sleeping.
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On December 14 2011 06:06 GrungyMunchy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:01 Jibba wrote:On December 14 2011 05:57 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 05:56 Aro wrote:
How is this different from a sports team playing their bench in meaningless games? That's actually a really good analogy. Because the bench players actually give effort. Even going through the motions is more effort than this. The only thing really equivalent to this is W. Germany vs. Austria in '82 when the W. Germans just ran around aimlessly without even trying to play the match. They were reamed for it, by Germans too. If he really didn't want to play, they he simply should've not played. He wasn't being any more honest than other people. If the Germans didn't want to play, then they simply should've not played. Yet they did. Maybe they had to. Like Naniwa?
in the '82 scandal it was even worse, because both teams were going to advance if Germany won 1:0. That was the last WC my father watched, he still refuses to support our team to this day, simply because he was so disgusted by that game.
Note we are comparing apples to oranges though, the scandal back then was closer to matchfixing then throwing a game on purpose. Both sides knew that such a result would mean they win so they "fixed" the match in a strange way. As i said, some die hard fans still haven't forgiven their team for that. That is not something i'd wish any pro gamer.
edit: in regards to the poster who said something about complexity: i think Jason Lake is currently very happy that they have nothing to do with this mess :p The Managers of Quantic on the other hand are probably pissed off pretty badly.
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On December 14 2011 06:08 NEXUS6 wrote:
Why are people getting mad about decisions that only a programer can make? You can't force players to not cheese....
It was not cheese it was disrespect. Cheese has a chance to win.
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On December 14 2011 06:07 GrungyMunchy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:06 MichaelJLowell wrote:On December 14 2011 05:53 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 05:35 MichaelJLowell wrote:On December 14 2011 04:55 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 04:53 Gabriel Verlaine wrote:On December 14 2011 04:50 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 04:41 Gabriel Verlaine wrote:On December 14 2011 04:34 Russano wrote:On December 14 2011 04:32 The_LiNk wrote:
[quote]
I don't think you understood my reference to 300 and the Spartans. I'm saying how Western culture seems to have some sort of value in fighting to the end because it's the honourable thing to do and how the lore of the Battle of Thermopylae is one of the most celebrated examples of this.
Also I don't see how Naniwa being pissed off is an excuse to not act respectfully. Do Western parents really buy the candy for their child just because the child is having a temper tantrum? Yeah they do buy them the candy kinda often, and it really blows. But Naniwa sees the world differently, and probably didn't even conceive that it might be disrespectful. Im' sure he's totally shocked at how much hate he's getting for a fucking probe rush. Reading the interview I cannot see any sign of Naniwa being shocked, he still thinks he did nothing wrong, even if he denied the PAYING STARCRAFT2-FANS a game of NesTea. You think someone who's gonna play against Nestea is thinking about giving good games for the paying Nestea fans? No, they're thinking about winning the game regardless of how they do it. Naniwa, being the guy obsessed with winning that we all know, didn't care about a match that wouldn't decide anything, and acted accordingly. Blizzard Cup isn't a set of showmatches, they're not playing for your entertainment. They're playing to win. Money. A lot of it. It's not about NesTea Fans, read more careful! Well it's not about Naniwa's fans either, neither is about SC2 fans who paid for it. It's about the players only. It's their job. They make a living off of it. They don't need to give a shit about what the fans think, and some of them (like Naniwa) indeed don't give a shit. How do you think they make their living? They make their living by performing. The reason they get paid is that people pay to see the players perform. If they do not perform, they do not live up to their contractual obligations. That's why people get upset about this, just like people get upset when IdrA quits games and no-shows his matches. Not to mention the general grudge nature of the contest. Naniwa looks like the kid who told Nestea to meet him out in the schoolyard after class and cried "I don't want to fight anymore" after Nestea popped him in the jaw. And all of that would be appliable if he didn't play his match. He did. Just in a way you didn't like. Players don't have an obligation to play entertaining games, they have an obligation to play games. Whether they're entertaining or not it's for each person to decide. It's also the team's right to fire players who sully the reputation of the team, organization, or tournament, or intentionally play build orders and styles that lose games, and it's my right to call out players who piss away their god-given talent because they're butthurt about getting eliminated. I'm leveraging my side of the bargain and I won't be stunned when these teams (who don't exactly have the resources to provide paychecks to players that deliberately choose not to compete in their games) start leveraging their end. Yes, you have the right to be pissed at this. Just don't go on thinking anyone gives a shit about it.
Step 1: "OMG MAINSTREAT WE WANT TOO BE A REAL SPORTS WITH REAL ATHLETES WHO ARE HELD TO REAL RESPONSIBILITIES"
Step 2: "Hey, it's his right to decide whether or not he wants to compete. He's not here to play for the fans, the people who generate the revenue that pays for his salary. He's here to play for himself!"
Step 3: Lol.
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On December 14 2011 06:04 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Mega over generalization... I am 100% sure that if this were in ANY other country in the world the response would have been at bad... it's just bad over all...
I mean seriously, it's one thing to skew the situation into using child soldiers in a situation where it's basic manners.... if he didn't want to play a "useless game" then he could have declined to play instead of purposefully getting on international stream and throwing his forfeit into the other player's face....
Your argument is childish and misplaced... it is correct, but only in situations of changes in human rights... in fundamentally serious situations... not in a video game arena...
So your argument is that, A) He should of known just from his own culture?
and/or
B) My analogy doesn't apply because video game manners isn't the same as real life people to people manners?
because If I suddenly became good enough to win MLG. Went to play in a touranment in korea, and decided to worker rush 1 game that didn't matter after I had been effectively eliminated from the tournament, I wouldn't of at all thought it was a big deal. I would of been incredibly surprised by this shit storm
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On December 14 2011 06:05 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:45 aviator116 wrote:
This really shows the difference between foreign perception of ESPORTS and the korean perception. koreans have spent over a decade shaping starcraft into an nationally accepted sport. for ANY player to throw games is just unacceptable. Remember when Bratok and stephano tried to lose at assembly so they wouldn't have to play Sen? the koreans blew up at that as well. just because the game doesnt matter doesnt mean one of the players should just decide to not give a shit. This is why Korean opinion of foreigners have always been so low. But Hero threw his game against DRG yesterday?
hero didn't throw his game, he just tried something that had a very slim chance of working
it would have been different if he had tried block DRG's ramp with a nexus or something, not like he gave up like naniwa did
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United States4991 Posts
I don't really see how this is any worse than the fact that lots of players don't show up for their MLG placement matches after they're eliminated (like the matches that determine whether you got 16th or 17th for example - they're already out of the tournament at that point). No one throws a shitfit over that to my knowledge.
I think a lot of "esports fans" are fucking crazy maniacs, who view this game as some sort of "honorable contest" with precise codes of honor and conduct. Shit, it's a game. I enjoy watching it, and the fact that people can make a living off it (be it via playing, streaming, coaching, whatever) is awesome bananas. But it's still a game; it's not some samurai duel.
Controversy is awesome, and there's pretty much no one in SC2 right now who I think is a cooler contestant than Naniwa - he says what he means, and he cares about winning over manner/portrayal. Despite people talking about how he's not a professional, not properly competing, etc., I think he's the purest competitor there is right now.
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On December 14 2011 05:28 Gabriel Verlaine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:21 Lt.Roosevelt wrote:
Lol, not a pro gamer? >.<
Anyway, I just hope Quantic stands up and supports Naniwa because quite frankly this is getting out of hand and is blown way out of proportion. I don't think so. Such behaviour is tolerated too much in western eSports. It's unfair and disrespectful and anyone should be punished for it. Even if my personal favourite players would do like that I would demand penalties for it. So many people lost any sense for fairness, it's unbelievable, they o not even know that Naniwa shows disrespect. You can only educate people to be fair again, if you force them by penalties and hopefully the audience will learn what's right and what is wrong.
My GOD it's the end of the world!
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On December 14 2011 06:11 Insane wrote:
I don't really see how this is any worse than the fact that lots of players don't show up for their MLG placement matches after they're eliminated (like the matches that determine whether you got 16th or 17th for example - they're already out of the tournament at that point). No one throws a shitfit over that to my knowledge.
I think a lot of "esports fans" are fucking crazy maniacs, who view this game as some sort of "honorable contest" with precise codes of honor and conduct. Shit, it's a game. I enjoy watching it, and the fact that people can make a living off it (be it via playing, streaming, coaching, whatever) is awesome bananas. But it's still a game; it's not some samurai duel.
Controversy is awesome, and there's pretty much no one in SC2 right now who I think is a cooler contestant than Naniwa - he says what he means, and he cares about winning over manner/portrayal. Despite people talking about how he's not a professional, not properly competing, etc., I think he's the purest competitor there is right now.
Tell that to all the Koreans in Cod S,A,B who hate him right now for throwing the game and disrespecting GSL and the fans at the game.
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On December 14 2011 06:12 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:28 Gabriel Verlaine wrote:On December 14 2011 05:21 Lt.Roosevelt wrote:
Lol, not a pro gamer? >.<
Anyway, I just hope Quantic stands up and supports Naniwa because quite frankly this is getting out of hand and is blown way out of proportion. I don't think so. Such behaviour is tolerated too much in western eSports. It's unfair and disrespectful and anyone should be punished for it. Even if my personal favourite players would do like that I would demand penalties for it. So many people lost any sense for fairness, it's unbelievable, they o not even know that Naniwa shows disrespect. You can only educate people to be fair again, if you force them by penalties and hopefully the audience will learn what's right and what is wrong. My GOD it's the end of the world!
We need corporal punishment for these sorts of things. No gg? You lose a finger. Throw a game? You lose two!
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Fuck Koreans, seriusly:/ They need to start thinking a bit more as e-sports not as something cultural of theirs but something global (alfter all, it is the global starcraft league). They might have this mindset of giving it all in every game no amtter what, but that is not the mindset in the occidental world and from there we get our greatness and our flaws.
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On December 14 2011 06:15 SeriouR wrote:
Fuck Koreans, seriusly:/ They need to start thinking a bit more as e-sports not as something cultural of theirs but something global (alfter all, it is the global starcraft league). They might have this mindset of giving it all in every game no amtter what, but that is not the mindset in the occidental world and from there we get our greatness and our flaws.
lol...
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Just remove him from gsl until he matures like the coca/byun incident.
That sort of behavior has no business in e-sports, and I as a fan am outraged by paying 140 dollars for the gsl ticket if that is the quality of game I will receive.
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On December 14 2011 06:11 Insane wrote:
I don't really see how this is any worse than the fact that lots of players don't show up for their MLG placement matches after they're eliminated (like the matches that determine whether you got 16th or 17th for example - they're already out of the tournament at that point). No one throws a shitfit over that to my knowledge.
I think a lot of "esports fans" are fucking crazy maniacs, who view this game as some sort of "honorable contest" with precise codes of honor and conduct. Shit, it's a game. I enjoy watching it, and the fact that people can make a living off it (be it via playing, streaming, coaching, whatever) is awesome bananas. But it's still a game; it's not some samurai duel.
Controversy is awesome, and there's pretty much no one in SC2 right now who I think is a cooler contestant than Naniwa - he says what he means, and he cares about winning over manner/portrayal. Despite people talking about how he's not a professional, not properly competing, etc., I think he's the purest competitor there is right now.
If we have to explain the difference about a run of the mill MLG (note providence as in the national final is different) and the BLIZZARD CUP, which is supposed to be the most prestigous tournament of the year (wether it truly is or not is another discussion, but that is what we are expecting from the name) where only the best of the best are competing against each other, then this discussion makes little sense.
If you want to be professional at something (and that includes professional gamers) than you actually NEED to be professional when the light is on you. In this context i couldn't care less about how he behaves outside of the booth, he could be the foulest person on the planet for all i care, IF he performed properly inside the game.
I'm not saying that teams would actually sign someone if he was that problematic outside of the booth, but as long as he played his games properly and well we as the fans would have little to no room to complain.
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EPT
