|
On December 14 2011 06:24 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:20 zhurai wrote:
could
- proxy 10 gate
- proxy 12 gate
- 12forge cannon rush
.... etc?
o.o My point, is that, it's an arbitrary line we are drawing where there were no lines at all. Its a dangerous precedent to set in actually forcing regulation into actual game play once the game starts, where there was absolutely none before. I'm really against restricting the rights of individual players to forfeit individual matches.
It's not really an arbitrary line if what we see is the player playing one-handed, using a build that would pretty much guarantee a loss regardless of what Nestea does (6 pool can always pump out 3 drones while you run away), and not even showing any micro.
I mean honestly, we can't judge that a cannon rush or a two gate proxy is better or not than each other, but a worker rush is too damn obvious.
|
On December 14 2011 04:25 tetrismaan wrote:
If naniwa has to accept the Korean culture, the Koreans should accept a foreigners culture as well. eSport will never be worldwide, if you have to act after one culture.
This is one of those things which makes sports fun.
I just love how naniwa doesn't give a flying fuck of what others thinks of him. Why the hell should he care? If every personality in Starcraft / eSport was the same, why would there even be fanclubs? This is something for the mass.
For people who are posting with similar reasoning, in which parts of the world culture are people accepted for being selfish and disrespectful? All cultures at least have similar fundamental: be respectful and fit in. This reasoning is just absurd.
What he did is disrespectful to Gom, Nestea and many others and it has nothing to do with accepting 'foreign' culture.
The way he acted is just selfish as he is a representative of Quantic Gaming and his sponsors probably was not happy about how the match fanned out.
Whoever's bringing up the idea of accepting so called 'foreign' or 'Western' culture into this clearly has no ground to stand on.
|
On December 14 2011 06:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:57 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 05:56 Aro wrote:
How is this different from a sports team playing their bench in meaningless games? That's actually a really good analogy. Because the bench players actually give effort. Even going through the motions is more effort than this. The only thing really equivalent to this is W. Germany vs. Austria in '82 when the W. Germans just ran around aimlessly without even trying to play the match. They were reamed for it, by Germans too. If he really didn't want to play, they he simply should've not played. He wasn't being any more honest than other people.
I really don't believe you thought that response through when comparing those two events.
In the football game, both teams would benefit from this certain result, and their benefits inevitably ruined Algerias chances to write football-history for Africa (more than they did).
In the SC2-game, none of the players in the game could benefit from the result, neither could anyone else in their group.
I don't feel like I have to explain that point further as it's quite obvious why there is a major difference.
People need to get over theirself and take it for what it is
He basically forfeited a game without any meaning for any players involved, "robbing" paying customers.
This is nothing if we continue on the point being made of teams fielding their B-team in other sports.
A question for you who feels this is justified because they actually try to play: Is that what you came to watch? People don't seem to consider this being "robbed" even if you're seeing an entirely different match than you supposedly paid quite a bit for, quite a long time in advance, baffling, to say the least
bottom line is, it's not even remotely worthy of this absolute shitstorm that is all over TL atm)
|
Why do people love making drama over Naniwa? It makes little sense. It almost seems like a reddit-like mob trying to demonize someone or something. Move along, mates.
|
On December 14 2011 06:25 hunts wrote:
Your argument is silly. The line is drawn at the point where the player knows his strategy has 0% chance of ever winning. Worker rushing falls under this strategy as it does not work above bronze league. Almost everything else that actually has a chance of working, qualifies as giving enough effort. And really, why should someone be a progamer if they are not willing to give it their all in every match, it's what they're there for and it's what they are being paid for.
What if for whatever reason, some bronze player soooo incredibly bad wtih next to no idea what they are doing, plays NesTea. Effectively everything anything he does gives nestea a further advantage. Pretty much every strat has a 0 percent chance of work with his ability, worker rush is then his highest percentage play. Should said player be punished for worker rushing? If giving it your all was a requirement, nobody would be a progamer. Everyone has games where they dont' try their hardest or just give up.
While I'd agree, what's the point of playing if you aren't trying to win. Thats on them. Having rules requiring people to try harder is absolutely silly, and I will never be for the absolutey prevention of a player to concede a match.
|
On December 14 2011 06:11 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:04 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Mega over generalization... I am 100% sure that if this were in ANY other country in the world the response would have been at bad... it's just bad over all...
I mean seriously, it's one thing to skew the situation into using child soldiers in a situation where it's basic manners.... if he didn't want to play a "useless game" then he could have declined to play instead of purposefully getting on international stream and throwing his forfeit into the other player's face....
Your argument is childish and misplaced... it is correct, but only in situations of changes in human rights... in fundamentally serious situations... not in a video game arena...
So your argument is that, A) He should of known just from his own culture? and/or B) My analogy doesn't apply because video game manners isn't the same as real life people to people manners? because If I suddenly became good enough to win MLG. Went to play in a touranment in korea, and decided to worker rush 1 game that didn't matter after I had been effectively eliminated from the tournament, I wouldn't of at all thought it was a big deal. I would of been incredibly surprised by this shit storm
Point A) <- Yes, Swedish culture doesn't exactly applaud quitting when people are counting on you...
Point B) You're confused about my statement... I don't really see how throwing a game on purpose is related to a woman faking an orgasm? Nothing is on the line when having sex. And if you wanted to put it in those words... Naniwa could have declined the sex instead of complaining while having uninterested sex? I feel really weirded out talking about this in terms of intercourse xDDD
End point, Naniwa could have just as easily taken a far more respectful route than he did than worker rushing, which was a clear spit in the face to the majority of those who watched/mattered (sponsors/GSL/etc.), and purposefully did NOT take that route.
Which is the whole of my argument I guess. What inspired you to compare Naniwa throwing a game to a woman faking an orgasm? I'm vaguely curious... LOL
|
On December 14 2011 06:24 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:14 Utinni wrote:On December 14 2011 06:11 Insane wrote:
I don't really see how this is any worse than the fact that lots of players don't show up for their MLG placement matches after they're eliminated (like the matches that determine whether you got 16th or 17th for example - they're already out of the tournament at that point). No one throws a shitfit over that to my knowledge.
I think a lot of "esports fans" are fucking crazy maniacs, who view this game as some sort of "honorable contest" with precise codes of honor and conduct. Shit, it's a game. I enjoy watching it, and the fact that people can make a living off it (be it via playing, streaming, coaching, whatever) is awesome bananas. But it's still a game; it's not some samurai duel.
Controversy is awesome, and there's pretty much no one in SC2 right now who I think is a cooler contestant than Naniwa - he says what he means, and he cares about winning over manner/portrayal. Despite people talking about how he's not a professional, not properly competing, etc., I think he's the purest competitor there is right now.
Tell that to all the Koreans in Cod S,A,B who hate him right now for throwing the game and disrespecting GSL and the fans at the game. I would if I spoke Korean, but I don't speak it and I doubt anyone cares enough about either that comment or my opinion to translate it for them... You're nuts if you think that was disrespecting "GSL and the fans of the game". It was a game that didn't count for anything, and he didn't want to play it. He did not say "Fuck you", he did not even leave without "gg"ing. He just picked a bad strategy and lost with it in a quick game. Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:16 Tula wrote:On December 14 2011 06:11 Insane wrote:
I don't really see how this is any worse than the fact that lots of players don't show up for their MLG placement matches after they're eliminated (like the matches that determine whether you got 16th or 17th for example - they're already out of the tournament at that point). No one throws a shitfit over that to my knowledge.
I think a lot of "esports fans" are fucking crazy maniacs, who view this game as some sort of "honorable contest" with precise codes of honor and conduct. Shit, it's a game. I enjoy watching it, and the fact that people can make a living off it (be it via playing, streaming, coaching, whatever) is awesome bananas. But it's still a game; it's not some samurai duel.
Controversy is awesome, and there's pretty much no one in SC2 right now who I think is a cooler contestant than Naniwa - he says what he means, and he cares about winning over manner/portrayal. Despite people talking about how he's not a professional, not properly competing, etc., I think he's the purest competitor there is right now.
If we have to explain the difference about a run of the mill MLG (note providence as in the national final is different) and the BLIZZARD CUP, which is supposed to be the most prestigous tournament of the year (wether it truly is or not is another discussion, but that is what we are expecting from the name) where only the best of the best are competing against each other, then this discussion makes little sense. No, please do explain it. "Run of the mill MLG" has code S korean players participating. It has hundreds of participants, with tens (hundreds?) of thousands of viewers for the event itself (not for those games specifically I guess). A tournament is a tournament. The fact that there are only good players in it doesn't mean you should be held to a different standard of behavior.
Are those matches broadcast? Are they scheduled to be broadcast?
Do the fans buy a ticket to the event expecting those games to be played on the mainstage? The simple fact that a camera is centered on you and you are playing on a live stage in one of the biggest tournaments of the year makes the situation different.
I'll try to make my point 100% clear so there can be no missunderstanding:
If we want esports to mean anything, it means that when the lights are on and the show has started the players have to play. We can't expect them to play their absolute best every time because no one can do that, but they have to be willing and able to play at their current ability (whatever that may be, if they are tilting heavily and their game has collapsed completly that is "expected" in some situations) so that we the fans and the sponsors and the organisers behind the tournaments can say this is a true sport.
|
who gives a fuck,
the drama,
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
|
+ Show Spoiler +@FXOChoya: [Can't believe] that kind of bastard is a pro-gamer.
COMEDY GOLD.(admittedly less severe since it was ladder, but still funny nonetheless)
Anyway, I think I can understand Naniwa's frustration and reaction... he's hyper-competitive and seems incredibly hard on himself when he loses, so I can't say I'm surprised that he'd probe-rush since it didn't matter any more -- at least to him. I don't think the amount of controversy generated over this is that deserved, but I hope Naniwa can better deal with his frustration and general image as a progamer in the future.
|
Here's a real life example from myself, from 10 years ago, from my last day on the job for a reseller.
On my last call of the day, I determined that the customer's hard drive is dead(click...whirrrrr....CLICK whirrrrrr the telltale signs your HD is kaput). I let the customer know that we are not a data recovery shop and that he needs to take his hard drive to specialists to recover his data for him(that's not us unfortunately). Then guess what happened.
He sat me down and said "wait wait. see, we are both asians. I know you can fix this. why don't we just do this under the table".
OK here's the defining moment for me as a professional. This is my last day on the job. Either I:
a) take him up on his offer, download some data recovery tools, help him on my own time and make some side cash
b) I remain professional, reiterate my company's stance, and return to the office to report the result of the field call.
Again it was my last day. I could have screwed everything up last day and still leave the company on good terms.
But you know what I did? I went with option B. For some of you, who the hell cares. For me - professionalism matters, when even it doesn't to everyone else.
|
On December 14 2011 06:28 dkream wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 04:25 tetrismaan wrote:
If naniwa has to accept the Korean culture, the Koreans should accept a foreigners culture as well. eSport will never be worldwide, if you have to act after one culture.
This is one of those things which makes sports fun.
I just love how naniwa doesn't give a flying fuck of what others thinks of him. Why the hell should he care? If every personality in Starcraft / eSport was the same, why would there even be fanclubs? This is something for the mass. For people who are posting with similar reasoning, in which parts of the world culture are people accepted for being selfish and disrespectful? All cultures at least have similar fundamental: be respectful and fit in. This reasoning is just absurd. What he did is disrespectful to Gom, Nestea and many others and it has nothing to do with accepting 'foreign' culture. The way he acted is just selfish as he is a representative of Quantic Gaming and his sponsors probably was not happy about how the match fanned out. Whoever's bringing up the idea of accepting so called 'foreign' or 'Western' culture into this clearly has no ground to stand on.
Because I don't find worker rushing disrespectful, and if I don't, other people don't. I would never have known worker rushing was like the biggest fuck you you could do apparently, before this. That's the entire crux of my argument. Now that I DO know, I certainly won't be worker rushing a GSL tournament anytime soon.
|
My personal opinion is that if Naniwa didn't care about the game, why didn't he just forfeit instead of being childish and wasting everyone's time? Knowing he had forfeited I could've gone to sleep earlier, rather than just staying an extra 5-10min waiting for a grudge match that just didn't happen.
He's an entertainer. I'd rather have an entertainer go before hand and say "We're not playing tonight" than make me wait and not do anything. If he didn't want to forfeit, he could have at least put some effort and cheese, but no he just sends probes and doesn't even do anything with them.
|
On December 14 2011 06:26 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:20 D_K_night wrote:On December 13 2011 23:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 13 2011 23:12 zul wrote:
Naniwa responds on twitter: "apparently people got upset when i probe rushed nestea, the game was pointless and it couldnt change anything in the tournament."
people who bought the HD Pass just to see good games from him, will not approve of this behavior. The people who bought the HD Pass knew the format of the tournament and knew that it allowed for inconsequential games. Without the incentive of winning a tournament, progamers should not try to win. No one is good enough to waste their best effort on inconsequential games, especially with how many major tournaments there are nowadays. Whatever the best strategy Naniwa had in mind for the game, he should not use it. What irrational people want and expect is for the players to put on a false show of a competition, where they both seem to be trying enough for viewers to successfully suspend their disbelief. Such people don't constitute a significant enough part of the community to justify this huge reaction. If I watched it for free using the SQ stream, then OK I totally see your point(hey it's free entertainment, so no harm no foul). It just means I have to stay up till the wee hours of the morning here in PST time to watch the games. I bought the HD pass. This enables me to watch the VODS later. So would you say this is a lesson to me, to not buy it next time? Just want to say that, when money is put down on the table, you've invested something into the tourney. About supporting esports right? And what qualifies as "inconsequential"? Any BO1 format? My impression is, when money is on the line for the players, it counts. If it's inconsequential, then why should anyone play this joke of a tourney? My take is, it does matter for all concerned. The game itself was inconsequential by that point. They were both eliminated, and the result of the game had no impact on either of them, nor of other players. Korean esports fans are amazingly hypocritical. For YEARS they have come to BW WCGs and the representatives blatantly threw games which directly impacted their and other players' seedings out of the groups. They just brushed it away and didn't care because it was a dumb foreigner tourney and the only people getting screwed were non-Koreans.
citations?
|
I hope things aren't too awkward for Naniwa now in the Startale house lol....
|
Who said naniwa didn't throw the game?????????????
He a moved his probes and took his hands off the keyboard
|
On December 14 2011 06:32 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:26 Insane wrote:On December 14 2011 06:20 D_K_night wrote:On December 13 2011 23:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 13 2011 23:12 zul wrote:
Naniwa responds on twitter: "apparently people got upset when i probe rushed nestea, the game was pointless and it couldnt change anything in the tournament."
people who bought the HD Pass just to see good games from him, will not approve of this behavior. The people who bought the HD Pass knew the format of the tournament and knew that it allowed for inconsequential games. Without the incentive of winning a tournament, progamers should not try to win. No one is good enough to waste their best effort on inconsequential games, especially with how many major tournaments there are nowadays. Whatever the best strategy Naniwa had in mind for the game, he should not use it. What irrational people want and expect is for the players to put on a false show of a competition, where they both seem to be trying enough for viewers to successfully suspend their disbelief. Such people don't constitute a significant enough part of the community to justify this huge reaction. If I watched it for free using the SQ stream, then OK I totally see your point(hey it's free entertainment, so no harm no foul). It just means I have to stay up till the wee hours of the morning here in PST time to watch the games. I bought the HD pass. This enables me to watch the VODS later. So would you say this is a lesson to me, to not buy it next time? Just want to say that, when money is put down on the table, you've invested something into the tourney. About supporting esports right? And what qualifies as "inconsequential"? Any BO1 format? My impression is, when money is on the line for the players, it counts. If it's inconsequential, then why should anyone play this joke of a tourney? My take is, it does matter for all concerned. The game itself was inconsequential by that point. They were both eliminated, and the result of the game had no impact on either of them, nor of other players. Korean esports fans are amazingly hypocritical. For YEARS they have come to BW WCGs and the representatives blatantly threw games which directly impacted their and other players' seedings out of the groups. They just brushed it away and didn't care because it was a dumb foreigner tourney and the only people getting screwed were non-Koreans. citations?
how about stork vs lx for one where both of them try to throw their game as hard as possible
|
On December 14 2011 06:31 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:11 Russano wrote:On December 14 2011 06:04 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Mega over generalization... I am 100% sure that if this were in ANY other country in the world the response would have been at bad... it's just bad over all...
I mean seriously, it's one thing to skew the situation into using child soldiers in a situation where it's basic manners.... if he didn't want to play a "useless game" then he could have declined to play instead of purposefully getting on international stream and throwing his forfeit into the other player's face....
Your argument is childish and misplaced... it is correct, but only in situations of changes in human rights... in fundamentally serious situations... not in a video game arena...
So your argument is that, A) He should of known just from his own culture? and/or B) My analogy doesn't apply because video game manners isn't the same as real life people to people manners? because If I suddenly became good enough to win MLG. Went to play in a touranment in korea, and decided to worker rush 1 game that didn't matter after I had been effectively eliminated from the tournament, I wouldn't of at all thought it was a big deal. I would of been incredibly surprised by this shit storm Point A) <- Yes, Swedish culture doesn't exactly applaud quitting when people are counting on you... Point B) You're confused about my statement... I don't really see how throwing a game on purpose is related to a woman faking an orgasm? Nothing is on the line when having sex. And if you wanted to put it in those words... Naniwa could have declined the sex instead of complaining while having uninterested sex? I feel really weirded out talking about this in terms of intercourse xDDD End point, Naniwa could have just as easily taken a far more respectful route than he did than worker rushing, which was a clear spit in the face to the majority of those who watched/mattered (sponsors/GSL/etc.), and purposefully did NOT take that route. Which is the whole of my argument I guess. What inspired you to compare Naniwa throwing a game to a woman faking an orgasm? I'm vaguely curious... LOL
well MY whole point, is its not an obvious spit in the face, which I posted just above. I wouldn't have known it was a spit in the face.
and all the analogy was about was basically feigning interest in something to make the other party feel better.
|
On December 14 2011 06:30 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:25 hunts wrote:
Your argument is silly. The line is drawn at the point where the player knows his strategy has 0% chance of ever winning. Worker rushing falls under this strategy as it does not work above bronze league. Almost everything else that actually has a chance of working, qualifies as giving enough effort. And really, why should someone be a progamer if they are not willing to give it their all in every match, it's what they're there for and it's what they are being paid for. What if for whatever reason, some bronze player soooo incredibly bad wtih next to no idea what they are doing, plays NesTea. Effectively everything anything he does gives nestea a further advantage. Pretty much every strat has a 0 percent chance of work with his ability, worker rush is then his highest percentage play. Should said player be punished for worker rushing? If giving it your all was a requirement, nobody would be a progamer. Everyone has games where they dont' try their hardest or just give up. While I'd agree, what's the point of playing if you aren't trying to win. Thats on them. Having rules requiring people to try harder is absolutely silly, and I will never be for the absolutey prevention of a player to concede a match.
Now you're just creating a strawman argument though. A bronze player will never play nestea in a tournament setting, it is not possible. It is assumed that inherently when two people meet in a tournament they both have at least a chance of beating the other, and therefore a strategy that has 0% chance of winning such as drone rushing is effectively throwing the game.
|
On December 14 2011 06:33 TyrionSC2 wrote:
Who said naniwa didn't throw the game?????????????
He a moved his probes and took his hands off the keyboard
People aren't really saying that. What I said earlier, it's absurd how people are not arguing about whether its okay to throw games. But they are arguing about how if you DO throw games, you better do a better job hiding it, and do something wtih a higher chance of winning, even though you aren't trying.
|
from a viewers perspective i could not have hoped for a better game as i am solely watching for my own entertainment-purposes. even if the game itself did turn out to be a little "anticlimactic", the shitstorm thats going on right now is making up for it, as i happen to find this situation quite amusing. guess i'm just that much of a weirdo, go figure 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
