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On December 14 2011 06:34 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:30 Russano wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 hunts wrote:
Your argument is silly. The line is drawn at the point where the player knows his strategy has 0% chance of ever winning. Worker rushing falls under this strategy as it does not work above bronze league. Almost everything else that actually has a chance of working, qualifies as giving enough effort. And really, why should someone be a progamer if they are not willing to give it their all in every match, it's what they're there for and it's what they are being paid for. What if for whatever reason, some bronze player soooo incredibly bad wtih next to no idea what they are doing, plays NesTea. Effectively everything anything he does gives nestea a further advantage. Pretty much every strat has a 0 percent chance of work with his ability, worker rush is then his highest percentage play. Should said player be punished for worker rushing? If giving it your all was a requirement, nobody would be a progamer. Everyone has games where they dont' try their hardest or just give up. While I'd agree, what's the point of playing if you aren't trying to win. Thats on them. Having rules requiring people to try harder is absolutely silly, and I will never be for the absolutey prevention of a player to concede a match. Now you're just creating a strawman argument though. A bronze player will never play nestea in a tournament setting, it is not possible. It is assumed that inherently when two people meet in a tournament they both have at least a chance of beating the other, and therefore a strategy that has 0% chance of winning such as drone rushing is effectively throwing the game.
Yes it generally is a strawman, however such an occaision could happen like in the first round of the MLG open bracket, which has had awful awful awful players before who play just for the chance to face someone like nestea.
THe broader point, is why are people bitching about the WAY he threw the match, rather then if match forfeitures should be allowed. Because the probe rush was clearly intended as a lulzworthy forfeit.
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Naniwa is paid for his skills, and for his potential.
He isn't paid to put on entertaining matches for everyone.
The creator of this article doesn't seem to understand that.
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On December 14 2011 06:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:57 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 05:56 Aro wrote:
How is this different from a sports team playing their bench in meaningless games? That's actually a really good analogy. Because the bench players actually give effort. Even going through the motions is more effort than this. The only thing really equivalent to this is W. Germany vs. Austria in '82 when the W. Germans just ran around aimlessly without even trying to play the match. They were reamed for it, by Germans too. If he really didn't want to play, they he simply should've not played. He wasn't being any more honest than other people.
How is that equivelent at all?
W. Germany and Austria completely fucked over Algeria.
This was both teams, not Germany alone. Also the Germans won both the match and the group.
Consequently the format was changed before the next world cup because it was completely unfair.
They basically fixed the match, but did so in line with the rules.
Naniwa vs Nestea was meaningless, an equivelant match from the world cup would be something like Russia vs Cameroon in 94'.
The match was completely meaningless and Russia won 6-1 vs a halfhearted lacklustered Cameroon.
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On December 14 2011 06:04 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 05:50 perestain wrote:On December 14 2011 05:43 laggikoN wrote:On December 14 2011 05:33 Halcyondaze wrote:On December 14 2011 05:27 Russano wrote:On December 14 2011 05:21 Halcyondaze wrote:On December 14 2011 05:18 Russano wrote:
I still don't find this "disrespectful". If you want to make a case for it being disrespectful for the fans, sure, but how in the world is it disrespectful to NesTea? See the thing is you are American, with an American Perspective. This is HIGHLY disrespectful to do something of this nature. To say I don't even respect you enough as a player to show you a real game. Simply, what he is saying is Naniwa's time is more important than Nestea's time. When it was even Nestea's birthday, yet he was willing to prepare and show good games because that is what he is expected to do The problem here is. It's on the person receiving the offense, to be offended. The "foreign" perspectieve for lack of a better term, doesn't see this as disrespectful. While it would be good of naniwa to try to adjust for the culture and not cause any offense. The korean stand point should realize that the foreigner didn't intend it as disrespect, and that they can take the high road and forgive it. THe proper response here, is for the Koreans to tell Naniwa that they frown on this kind of thing, tell him not to do it again, and for him to say I'm sorry I did it, and everyone moves on. Not this stupid shitstorm saying he doesn't deserve to be a progamer. That is another great AMERICAN perspective because we are used to other cultures coming into our country and having to abide by their "rules". THIS IS KOREA, how many times can I say this. Adjusting to cultures is polite AND EXPECTED, not doing so is disrespectful, that is life. You either are American, or you agree with that. Yeah, embrace other cultures, don't question anything and don't try to understand eachother. If you're in another country, follow their social rules. Throw rocks at gay people until they die, bow to your "superiors", do everything in your power to get rich - stepping on as many toes as you possibly can, censor the internet, kill people trying to cross the border, hand out the death penalty, openly carry guns, use kids as soldiers, start wars over oil, don't learn english.. the list goes on and on... There are just so many cultural differences i'm just dying to embrace and make my own. NO, that's not how it works, people need to accept that different people have different culture and that those cultural things should never be forced upon someone who doesn't agree with them! word! The term culture is abused on a regular basis as an excuse for the worst kind of behaviour. Mega over generalization... I am 100% sure that if this were in ANY other country in the world the response would have been at bad... it's just bad over all... I mean seriously, it's one thing to skew the situation into using child soldiers in a situation where it's basic manners.... if he didn't want to play a "useless game" then he could have declined to play instead of purposefully getting on international stream and throwing his forfeit into the other player's face.... Your argument is childish and misplaced... it is correct, but only in situations of changes in human rights... in fundamentally serious situations... not in a video game arena...
I wasn't arguing what naniwa did i was responding to
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That is another great AMERICAN perspective because we are used to other cultures coming into our country and having to abide by their "rules".
THIS IS KOREA, how many times can I say this. Adjusting to cultures is polite AND EXPECTED, not doing so is disrespectful, that is life. You either are American, or you agree with that."
Which i think is just silly, we can't adjust to cultures we don't agree with, and culture can't always be used as an excuse to do idiotic things - like forcing someone to play a game that means nothing when they're angry and dissapointed in themselves for losing 3 games really cloesly...
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United States4991 Posts
On December 14 2011 06:32 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:26 Insane wrote:On December 14 2011 06:20 D_K_night wrote:On December 13 2011 23:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On December 13 2011 23:12 zul wrote:
Naniwa responds on twitter: "apparently people got upset when i probe rushed nestea, the game was pointless and it couldnt change anything in the tournament."
people who bought the HD Pass just to see good games from him, will not approve of this behavior. The people who bought the HD Pass knew the format of the tournament and knew that it allowed for inconsequential games. Without the incentive of winning a tournament, progamers should not try to win. No one is good enough to waste their best effort on inconsequential games, especially with how many major tournaments there are nowadays. Whatever the best strategy Naniwa had in mind for the game, he should not use it. What irrational people want and expect is for the players to put on a false show of a competition, where they both seem to be trying enough for viewers to successfully suspend their disbelief. Such people don't constitute a significant enough part of the community to justify this huge reaction. If I watched it for free using the SQ stream, then OK I totally see your point(hey it's free entertainment, so no harm no foul). It just means I have to stay up till the wee hours of the morning here in PST time to watch the games. I bought the HD pass. This enables me to watch the VODS later. So would you say this is a lesson to me, to not buy it next time? Just want to say that, when money is put down on the table, you've invested something into the tourney. About supporting esports right? And what qualifies as "inconsequential"? Any BO1 format? My impression is, when money is on the line for the players, it counts. If it's inconsequential, then why should anyone play this joke of a tourney? My take is, it does matter for all concerned. The game itself was inconsequential by that point. They were both eliminated, and the result of the game had no impact on either of them, nor of other players. Korean esports fans are amazingly hypocritical. For YEARS they have come to BW WCGs and the representatives blatantly threw games which directly impacted their and other players' seedings out of the groups. They just brushed it away and didn't care because it was a dumb foreigner tourney and the only people getting screwed were non-Koreans. citations?
If you mean that they deliberately manipulated the results of groups in WCG, I'll cite common knowledge to anyone who was involved in the BW community before SC2. I never directly spoke to them and heard them say "it was a dumb foreigner tourney", but if they threw games as obviously in OSL as they did in WCG, I'm pretty sure there would've been a Korean reaction.
If you choose to disbelieve, that's your choice.
e: btw I don't care that Nani did this, and I don't really care that Koreans did it at WCG (although if it'd been me who got screwed over, I might've cared  ). The fact is that in both cases, it's a result of the the bracket system being abusable. I just mostly think it's pathetic that they overreact so much to Naniwa doing this, but don't care when their own heroes do it.
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They do it all the time. Nani just didn't do any bullshit "funny" strats and did it like a boss.
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Now that's a news site only out for extra views by being controversal trying to bring up a ridiculous point over exaggerated thousands of times.
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On December 14 2011 06:39 PanN wrote:
Naniwa is paid for his skills, and for his potential.
He isn't paid to put on entertaining matches for everyone.
The creator of this article doesn't seem to understand that.
Naniwa isn't paid to win. He is paid to entertain. Sponsors don't pay to have the sponsored win tournaments, they pay for the viewers that the sponsored brings in.
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Damn NaniWhine, I don't like him, but was waiting for the rematch against NesTea all morning and he just did that $#|T , WTF man???!!
I liked the oGsMinChul tweets, and it is true, NaniWhine do not deserve to be a pro gamer, let's see what can he achieve when no team want to sponsorship... and he couldn't find proper training conditions...
This man has no respect for eSports or anyone, and that madafaka was representing foreigners in Korean?! Jeez, even IdrA has more respect overall
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How would you feel if someone you played/were playing against, talks smack about how he beat you and now you have a chance to duke it out in a high class tournament with everyone watching, and they bitch out.....
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On December 14 2011 06:06 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:04 Paperplane wrote:On December 14 2011 06:01 Jibba wrote:On December 14 2011 05:57 GrungyMunchy wrote:On December 14 2011 05:56 Aro wrote:
How is this different from a sports team playing their bench in meaningless games? That's actually a really good analogy. Because the bench players actually give effort. Even going through the motions is more effort than this. The only thing really equivalent to this is W. Germany vs. Austria in '82 when the W. Germans just ran around aimlessly without even trying to play the match. They were reamed for it, by Germans too. If he really didn't want to play, they he simply should've not played. He wasn't being any more honest than other people. Don't quote me on this but I think he wasn't allowed to forfeit. What? They'd throw him in prison if he said he didn't want to play? Playing the game is a player's choice at ALL times. I am 100% sure Complexity would have PREFERRED him to just forfeit than this shitstorm...
he's not in complexity anymore. he's in quantic gaming.
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Naniwa should repay everyone who bought a Blizzard Cup ticket a portion of the money they deserve. Customers expected around 30-40 games, so he owes around 25-33c to each person who bought a $10 ticket.
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On December 14 2011 06:39 PanN wrote:
Naniwa is paid for his skills, and for his potential.
He isn't paid to put on entertaining matches for everyone.
The creator of this article doesn't seem to understand that.
then he shouldn't be in the tourny, or future tournies.
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On December 14 2011 06:31 Russano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:28 dkream wrote:On December 14 2011 04:25 tetrismaan wrote:
If naniwa has to accept the Korean culture, the Koreans should accept a foreigners culture as well. eSport will never be worldwide, if you have to act after one culture.
This is one of those things which makes sports fun.
I just love how naniwa doesn't give a flying fuck of what others thinks of him. Why the hell should he care? If every personality in Starcraft / eSport was the same, why would there even be fanclubs? This is something for the mass. For people who are posting with similar reasoning, in which parts of the world culture are people accepted for being selfish and disrespectful? All cultures at least have similar fundamental: be respectful and fit in. This reasoning is just absurd. What he did is disrespectful to Gom, Nestea and many others and it has nothing to do with accepting 'foreign' culture. The way he acted is just selfish as he is a representative of Quantic Gaming and his sponsors probably was not happy about how the match fanned out. Whoever's bringing up the idea of accepting so called 'foreign' or 'Western' culture into this clearly has no ground to stand on. Because I don't find worker rushing disrespectful, and if I don't, other people don't. I would never have known worker rushing was like the biggest fuck you you could do apparently, before this. That's the entire crux of my argument. Now that I DO know, I certainly won't be worker rushing a GSL tournament anytime soon.
IT IS THE WAY HE PRESENTED BEING DISRESPECTFUL. Look at how Nani's one hand is 'unoccupied' and his face while whole thing played out. I think everyone will agree that he gave 0 fuck in the game and that'd be perceived as disrepectful action in any culture to the organizers and his opponent. He obviously did a great job representing his team and all in process. I saw QG hyping the match before it started then haven't seen anything since then. You tell me if that was not selfish on his part as a player of QG.
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On December 14 2011 06:25 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
Naniwa has been in Korea long enough to know the Korean culture and work ethic.
You seriously expect him to have picked up on "unspoken rules" while playing SC2 24/7 for a few weeks with people who don't share a common language?
If we're going to start punishing people I wonder when HerO being punished like CoCa for throwing games against DRG?
When is NesTea being punished for admitting to not taking his showmatches against HuK seriously?
Half the time Showmatches are intentionally silly, Yellow vs Boxer for example. Should that now be punishable as well?
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On December 14 2011 06:43 Hubris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:39 PanN wrote:
Naniwa is paid for his skills, and for his potential.
He isn't paid to put on entertaining matches for everyone.
The creator of this article doesn't seem to understand that. then he shouldn't be in the tourny, or future tournies.
if playing entertaining matches was a requirement to play in a tourney, the cheese builds would result in banning, cuz I sure as shit don't want to watch a cannon rush or a stupid marine scv all in. That's an absurd stance to take.
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On December 14 2011 06:43 Hubris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:39 PanN wrote:
Naniwa is paid for his skills, and for his potential.
He isn't paid to put on entertaining matches for everyone.
The creator of this article doesn't seem to understand that. then he shouldn't be in the tourny, or future tournies.
You have absolutely no backing on your illogical statement.
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On December 14 2011 06:44 tlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:25 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
Naniwa has been in Korea long enough to know the Korean culture and work ethic. You seriously expect him to have picked up on "unspoken rules" while playing SC2 24/7 for a few weeks with people who don't share a common language? If we're going to start punishing people I wonder when HerO being punished like CoCa for throwing games against DRG? When is NesTea being punished for admitting to not taking his showmatches against HuK seriously? Half the time Showmatches are intentionally silly, Yellow vs Boxer for example. Should that now be punishable as well?
are you saying blizzard cup is actually a showmatch.
for reference.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/The Blizzard Cup is a tournament in which we plan to look back at and conclude the year 2011 and determine the BEST of BEST. Additionally, other events like Best Coach Award, Fan Favorite Player Award, Best Player of their respective Race Award.
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On December 14 2011 06:46 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:44 tlin wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
Naniwa has been in Korea long enough to know the Korean culture and work ethic. You seriously expect him to have picked up on "unspoken rules" while playing SC2 24/7 for a few weeks with people who don't share a common language? If we're going to start punishing people I wonder when HerO being punished like CoCa for throwing games against DRG? When is NesTea being punished for admitting to not taking his showmatches against HuK seriously? Half the time Showmatches are intentionally silly, Yellow vs Boxer for example. Should that now be punishable as well? are you saying blizzard cup is actually a showmatch. for reference. Show nested quote +http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/The Blizzard Cup is a tournament in which we plan to look back at and conclude the year 2011 and determine the BEST of BEST. Additionally, other events like Best Coach Award, Fan Favorite Player Award, Best Player of their respective Race Award.
When the match doesn't mean anything it actually is just for show, and yeah, that would be a showmatch.
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On December 14 2011 06:46 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:44 tlin wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 ssi.bal-listic wrote:
Naniwa has been in Korea long enough to know the Korean culture and work ethic. You seriously expect him to have picked up on "unspoken rules" while playing SC2 24/7 for a few weeks with people who don't share a common language? If we're going to start punishing people I wonder when HerO being punished like CoCa for throwing games against DRG? When is NesTea being punished for admitting to not taking his showmatches against HuK seriously? Half the time Showmatches are intentionally silly, Yellow vs Boxer for example. Should that now be punishable as well? are you saying blizzard cup is actually a showmatch. for reference. Show nested quote +http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/The Blizzard Cup is a tournament in which we plan to look back at and conclude the year 2011 and determine the BEST of BEST. Additionally, other events like Best Coach Award, Fan Favorite Player Award, Best Player of their respective Race Award.
Well, I guess we can rule him out for "Fan Favorite Player" lol..
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EPT
