EPT[Nov] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 27
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WightyCity
Canada887 Posts
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Fatze
Germany1342 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 08 2011 19:45 SeaSwift wrote: Perhaps, but I think it's still unexplored. The sheer number of different timing attacks Terran can do using Mech shows that it isn't a one-trick-pony like the 3gate VR you mentioned. Of course, I suspect the Korean Terrans know quite a bit more about the game than I do, but the few times I've seen multiple base mech play it's looked very successful. I'd also like to mention that you are wrong saying that Stargate play does not help you win in a standard game. Both MC and HerO frequently use 1base Phoenix to open up into a macro game, partly because it destroys any kind of 1-1-1 and partly because it makes Medivac drops almost worthless, and partly because they are one of the only decent harassment units Protoss has. Void Rays do not help much in a standard game, but Stargate play does work as part of an early-midgame investment. Of course, but that is not something you would describe as "standard" play. You use these "gimmick" strats to gain a quick advantage that exceeds the investment, since the investment does NOT help later in the game if you fumble the gimmick (or your opponent correctly counters). The nature of the investment is to do damage, and ultimately win with the investment. Banshee cloak, tanks (in TvP), and stargate tech are all part of this category. On the complete opposite end are investments which are guaranteed payouts. These are things like weapon and armor upgrades, special ability/stat upgrades that apply to your primary army, and tech routes. Stim, zergling speed, robo tech, and so on are all part of these investments. If you fumble a timing attack in which these upgrades are supposed to maximize return, you can still use them regardless. They don't find themselves at a detriment in the long term (but possibly in the short term). In between, you have investments which are, more or less, neutral. Generally, they are meant to discourage certain types of play, or give some intangible return. Things like using hellions (and maybe DTs) for map control in such a way that doing direct damage isn't even required. It's the same way that Protoss opens up stargate against Zerg in some circumstances. The little damage that can be done with some stargate builds is not a problem, since the primary role is to prompt extra defenses and gain scouting information. The investment in the stargate (assuming it's not proxied) will be used throughout the game to harass and bolster the main forces, but it is not the core of bringing about a win in most cases. In our discussion, these half-mech strats fall under the first category. As you move into the mid game, they become increasingly ineffective as a way to deal damage, even when mixed with a normal range of units. You get to a point where the strengths of each do not compliment one another. The mobility of bio is hindered by stationary tanks, and the high damage of mech is hindered by the need of so much bio to deal with zealots/immortals. The only solution is to then use bio-mech before it becomes useless by this dysfunction. Meanwhile, it does little to sway the Protoss down any tech paths you would find desirable for later encounters, nor does it lend itself to any sense of safety, as there are still a number of Protoss aggressive moves that could be done effectively regardless of one's choice to mech or bio-mech. This is why I categorize it under category 1, an investment that HAS to do direct damage that is greater than the investment. | ||
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NKsc2
Sweden133 Posts
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IAmSpooner
Sweden111 Posts
On December 08 2011 21:22 NKsc2 wrote: I honestly feel like if cannons had a bonus to biological air, that would fix the ZvP to 50% :/ Nothing radical but like a +10bonus to bio air or smth. Or give stalkers +dmg to bio air so that they actually counter mutas instead of being countered by them. That would be ridiculous. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On December 08 2011 21:22 NKsc2 wrote: I honestly feel like if cannons had a bonus to biological air, that would fix the ZvP to 50% :/ Nothing radical but like a +10bonus to bio air or smth. Or give stalkers +dmg to bio air so that they actually counter mutas instead of being countered by them. You know how powerful turrets are? They still don't counter mutas at numbers Protoss is having trouble with. I don't know what the solution is, but increased static defense damage is not part of it. | ||
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Ravnemesteren
224 Posts
I dont know if anyone agrees, but I think the korean stats are by far the most interesting. Korea is the highest level, so "balance" stats for lower levels is in some ways redundant in my opinion. The game should be balanced at the very top and all that. Anyways, its cool to see the stats change so fast (maybe it will be a trend, maybe not). And please blizzard, let terran be at the loosing end of a matchup for a full year :p Just joking... I am actually hoping things will level out and become steady in a year or two. But then again I guess heart of the swarm kills that hope. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
But if you start with cans in your mineral line you have a lot more freedom before the flock becomes big so you can move on the map and be aggressive forcing the zerg to make ground units and defend with the mutas. Making no canons and hoping you defend with your stalkers early on i think it's just stupid. | ||
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Kira__
Sweden2672 Posts
I really feel there's nothing wrong with the unit | ||
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HowardRoark
1146 Posts
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chipman
United States139 Posts
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Petninja
United States159 Posts
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pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 08 2011 22:36 Petninja wrote: Why are there 1/3 of the games played this past month from like 3 months ago? Is summer really that big of a deal for the professional community? Some games are not on lp yet, so some will be added in next moth graph | ||
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MistraL958
Switzerland100 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20323 Posts
On December 08 2011 16:51 SeaSwift wrote: Just gonna jump in here really quickly and say it was also because of one set of games: IEM Cologne. The LR thread for that tournament was an absolute clusterfuck, and the TL article about Dead Presidents fed the flames a little bit as well. Basically, after Puma had won 3-0 with 2 1-1-1s and one game in which he "abused" Ghosts after MC "outplayed" him, people were baying for blood, especially after the exciting and close series at NASL. Because the Protoss and Zerg races are so different, I doubt we will ever see a series again which will make the game look so unbelievably broken at the highest level of play. Also note that ZvP still has a fair bit of hope: HerO/Brown have the potential to revolutionize high level PvZ with a completely different style of play, whereas PvT at the time made it look like Protoss had tried all the options and still had never had a winrate over 50%. Personally, I still don't understand why Blizzard outright removed Protoss upgrades. If they were overpowered, weaken their effect, increase their cost or something. But removing Kayhdarin Amulet and Flux Vanes from the game completely on a whim after the Reaper was so OP and Blizzard only moved the Nitro Pack upgrade to requiring Factory seems really sloppy and inconsistent to me. Instead, they should have changed KA to +15 starting energy, rather than +25, so that Warp-in Storms couldn't be done but they could still get an energy upgrade. And I don't understand the problem with Flux Vanes at all =/ There was a big problem arising with speed void rays, which hadnt been seen all too much in high level play because of deathball styles, but it was rising and from what i heard it was completely unstoppable when played right. There was a VOD posted with i think Catz talking about talking to dustin browder or david kim about void ray speed and how he dealt with it, something along those lines, and it mentioned fungal growth's ability to hit air was being removed as a tradeoff for flux vanes removal as they was unsure about how to balance it without making void rays useless for their actual design purpose/s. Im not sure why they dont give neural back range 9 and remove fungal hitting air again, i dont think anyone would really have a problem with that, as a protoss player neural from range 9 was potentially very dangerous against archons/immortals, but with range 7, i havnt seen zerg successfully steal even those far shorter range units, because they are usually in the middle of the army, and the infestors just die almost instantly if they try to get close enough. It would be interesting to see what could arise from infestors being unable to hit air units with fungal, i just want to see it happen because it was previously that way for a patch and then reverted for no specific reason i think. Tyler made some comments on fungal screwing you over if you ever tried to poke with some air units (a non all-in) in the midgame, because you just lost your whole fleet if it ever got fungalled once. I think his words were something around "Not being able to poke with units that are designed for poking" after he lost a game where he tried midgame phoenix's and got crushed after loosing them almost for free | ||
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
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Raid
United States398 Posts
Still is nice to see win rates every season, just mad at people taking it as a balance evidence. | ||
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price
United States297 Posts
On December 08 2011 23:30 Raid wrote: People should seriously stop looking at statistics to try to balance game. Even though it seems the game feels like its evening out any change in metagame can swing heavy for another race. People should balance more on how the game looks than how it is statistically shown. Statistics are nice to look at but sometimes correlation =/= cause. Still is nice to see win rates every season, just mad at people taking it as a balance evidence. How the game feels is arbitrary. Statistics are not as long as sample sizes are large enough (i.e., low p values). It's how games should be balanced ... | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Deadeight
United Kingdom1629 Posts
@hasuterrans Did you take the win percentage of all P, T & Z games? I'm guessing so from the OP. Another way to do it is to average individual players win percentages in particular match ups, so that exceptional individual players (e.g. Nestea, or MC when he dominated) aren't over-represented just because they play more games. I defer to your superior knowledge on this ofc but just interested on your thinking on it. + Show Spoiler + The more you win, the further in the tournament you get, so the more games you play. Overall I guess that doesn't make a big difference though and all three races probably have an identical gaussian distribution of players, so same effect upon all three. | ||
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