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On December 08 2011 16:42 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 16:21 FidoDido wrote:
finally a chart to make protoss qqers on forums stop qqing about T>P
btw ... the international chart looks like brood war balance. TvP wasn't really as bad as ZvP in terms of balance. The only reason people jumped on the Terran hate train was GomTvT, which many saw as a problem with the GSL tournament format and not so much Terran being broken.
Just gonna jump in here really quickly and say it was also because of one set of games: IEM Cologne.
The LR thread for that tournament was an absolute clusterfuck, and the TL article about Dead Presidents fed the flames a little bit as well. Basically, after Puma had won 3-0 with 2 1-1-1s and one game in which he "abused" Ghosts after MC "outplayed" him, people were baying for blood, especially after the exciting and close series at NASL. Because the Protoss and Zerg races are so different, I doubt we will ever see a series again which will make the game look so unbelievably broken at the highest level of play.
Also note that ZvP still has a fair bit of hope: HerO/Brown have the potential to revolutionize high level PvZ with a completely different style of play, whereas PvT at the time made it look like Protoss had tried all the options and still had never had a winrate over 50%.
Personally, I still don't understand why Blizzard outright removed Protoss upgrades. If they were overpowered, weaken their effect, increase their cost or something. But removing Kayhdarin Amulet and Flux Vanes from the game completely on a whim after the Reaper was so OP and Blizzard only moved the Nitro Pack upgrade to requiring Factory seems really sloppy and inconsistent to me. Instead, they should have changed KA to +15 starting energy, rather than +25, so that Warp-in Storms couldn't be done but they could still get an energy upgrade. And I don't understand the problem with Flux Vanes at all =/
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oooooof
seems like Protoss is finally balancing out!!!!! this game may actually ebcome 50-50 :D
only ZvT which hasnt come more inline
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Holy crap! After half a year, Protoss finally has a winrate above 50%!
This is wonderful news. A great month, despite another Terran GSL winner.
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On December 08 2011 15:05 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 14:42 Entropic wrote:On December 08 2011 14:38 enemy2010 wrote:I don't knwo why every zerg seems to win against protoss, but i am not able to  its the korean zergs dominating protoss that is skewing the statistic. Foreigner zergs and NA/EU ladder, zergs do not dominate protoss (IMO foreigner zergs are way too passive and sit too much letting protoss max out). better answer is tournament statistics is nowhere close to actual ladder
There all also more foreign Toss who have committed to Korea. Also the foreign tradition tended to Protoss dominant in BW so you might expect some residual distribution of skill to be toss biased.
edit:
Sea. PvT was really as uncompetitive as that tournament demonstrated. We were seeing good or better Tosses being crushed by random Terrans doing really abusive strategies. What about the 10-0 Toss v Terran in the gom up and downs? What about Polt's famous quote about an overabundance of Terran. Hell look at my sig in which there's quote from BISU about the Korean perception of the game. Those problems didn't look like a metagame conundrum but fundamental balance and design flaws in the very game. The month of 1-1-1 was ridiculous and Puma rightly deserved the disgust and hatred he got. The dead Kennedies article was spot on. The game was simply not competitive at that point. In a match between even competitiors the Toss would lose.
Even the past few months of SC2 have been sketchy as only recent results, patches and map changes have begun to reassure me that the game is worth watching on a competitive stage. Fortunately I always have nevake and songbyonggoo.
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On December 08 2011 16:51 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 16:42 aksfjh wrote:On December 08 2011 16:21 FidoDido wrote:
finally a chart to make protoss qqers on forums stop qqing about T>P
btw ... the international chart looks like brood war balance. TvP wasn't really as bad as ZvP in terms of balance. The only reason people jumped on the Terran hate train was GomTvT, which many saw as a problem with the GSL tournament format and not so much Terran being broken. Just gonna jump in here really quickly and say it was also because of one set of games: IEM Cologne. The LR thread for that tournament was an absolute clusterfuck, and the TL article about Dead Presidents fed the flames a little bit as well. Basically, after Puma had won 3-0 with 2 1-1-1s and one game in which he "abused" Ghosts after MC "outplayed" him, people were baying for blood, especially after the exciting and close series at NASL. Because the Protoss and Zerg races are so different, I doubt we will ever see a series again which will make the game look so unbelievably broken at the highest level of play. Also note that ZvP still has a fair bit of hope: HerO/Brown have the potential to revolutionize high level PvZ with a completely different style of play, whereas PvT at the time made it look like Protoss had tried all the options and still had never had a winrate over 50%.
You're in the wrong time frame. That was right before the warp prism and immortal buffs. A month later, all we heard was "Terran is broken! Look at GomTvT!" Protoss, at the same time, was having struggles, and by looking at the data, it's largely against Zerg. However, apparently the community has such a hardon for whining about Terran that Protoss ire was directed at Terran, and the month or 2 stretch of Terran reign in GSL gave everybody justification.
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i think the game is pretty balanced. and the charts here somewhat prove that. my win rate as T is by far the lowest for me, however.. im bad and these are pros so, i trust their stats.
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On December 08 2011 17:32 black3200 wrote:
i think the game is pretty balanced. and the charts here somewhat prove that. my win rate as T is by far the lowest for me, however.. im bad and these are pros so, i trust their stats.
Be careful about using these as 'proof' of anything.
They are certainly interesting and very good representations, but they don't prove a thing.
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On December 08 2011 17:26 Sabu113 wrote:
Sea. PvT was really as uncompetitive as that tournament demonstrated. We were seeing good or better Tosses being crushed by random Terrans doing really abusive strategies. What about the 10-0 Toss v Terran in the gom up and downs? What about Polt's famous quote about an overabundance of Terran. Hell look at my sig in which there's quote from BISU about the Korean perception of the game. Those problems didn't look like a metagame conundrum but fundamental balance and design flaws in the very game. The month of 1-1-1 was ridiculous and Puma rightly deserved the disgust and hatred he got. The dead Kennedies article was spot on. The game was simply not competitive at that point. In a match between even competitiors the Toss would lose.
Oh, I absolutely agree about how broken it was. I just wanted to stay objective while giving a bit of background to the balance whine so that it didn't seem I was just joining in ^_^
I bolded the one part I don't agree with though. Puma had a choice between making a shitton of money or playing "fairly". Bear in mind that he is from Korea, where cheese doesn't have the same negative connotations to the extent the foreign community does. I think "don't hate the player, hate the game" would be an appropriate expression for this circumstance.
Anyway, the Immortal buff, some metagame changes and the reduction of EMP area by 44% makes a pretty big difference in PvT nowadays. It definitely doesn't look broken, and I would say the better player normally wins.
What I'm really excited about is the Jjakji/MVP half meching style of play in the early game for specific pushes. I don't really know whether those styles will carry on into standard play, and people on TL seem to be very sceptical about anything other than MMMGV for TvP, but I really hope it does.
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On December 08 2011 16:51 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 16:42 aksfjh wrote:On December 08 2011 16:21 FidoDido wrote:
finally a chart to make protoss qqers on forums stop qqing about T>P
btw ... the international chart looks like brood war balance. TvP wasn't really as bad as ZvP in terms of balance. The only reason people jumped on the Terran hate train was GomTvT, which many saw as a problem with the GSL tournament format and not so much Terran being broken. Just gonna jump in here really quickly and say it was also because of one set of games: IEM Cologne. The LR thread for that tournament was an absolute clusterfuck, and the TL article about Dead Presidents fed the flames a little bit as well. Basically, after Puma had won 3-0 with 2 1-1-1s and one game in which he "abused" Ghosts after MC "outplayed" him, people were baying for blood, especially after the exciting and close series at NASL. Because the Protoss and Zerg races are so different, I doubt we will ever see a series again which will make the game look so unbelievably broken at the highest level of play. Also note that ZvP still has a fair bit of hope: HerO/Brown have the potential to revolutionize high level PvZ with a completely different style of play, whereas PvT at the time made it look like Protoss had tried all the options and still had never had a winrate over 50%. Personally, I still don't understand why Blizzard outright removed Protoss upgrades. If they were overpowered, weaken their effect, increase their cost or something. But removing Kayhdarin Amulet and Flux Vanes from the game completely on a whim after the Reaper was so OP and Blizzard only moved the Nitro Pack upgrade to requiring Factory seems really sloppy and inconsistent to me. Instead, they should have changed KA to +15 starting energy, rather than +25, so that Warp-in Storms couldn't be done but they could still get an energy upgrade. And I don't understand the problem with Flux Vanes at all =/
I don't understand your post. Things are finally balanced at the highest lvl, and now u want KA and FV back?
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I'm absorbing what this graph has to tell me, but most of the time the better player (at that time) wins. Even if your race has some kind of supposed handicap or advantage at least we don't use items in an RTS like you would in an RPG. Yeah there is some coin flippy stuff that goes on, but that's just poor game design not a balance concern.
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On December 08 2011 17:51 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:26 Sabu113 wrote:
Sea. PvT was really as uncompetitive as that tournament demonstrated. We were seeing good or better Tosses being crushed by random Terrans doing really abusive strategies. What about the 10-0 Toss v Terran in the gom up and downs? What about Polt's famous quote about an overabundance of Terran. Hell look at my sig in which there's quote from BISU about the Korean perception of the game. Those problems didn't look like a metagame conundrum but fundamental balance and design flaws in the very game. The month of 1-1-1 was ridiculous and Puma rightly deserved the disgust and hatred he got. The dead Kennedies article was spot on. The game was simply not competitive at that point. In a match between even competitiors the Toss would lose. Oh, I absolutely agree about how broken it was. I just wanted to stay objective while giving a bit of background to the balance whine so that it didn't seem I was just joining in ^_^ I bolded the one part I don't agree with though. Puma had a choice between making a shitton of money or playing "fairly". Bear in mind that he is from Korea, where cheese doesn't have the same negative connotations to the extent the foreign community does. I think "don't hate the player, hate the game" would be an appropriate expression for this circumstance. Anyway, the Immortal buff, some metagame changes and the reduction of EMP area by 44% makes a pretty big difference in PvT nowadays. It definitely doesn't look broken, and I would say the better player normally wins. What I'm really excited about is the Jjakji/MVP half meching style of play in the early game for specific pushes. I don't really know whether those styles will carry on into standard play, and people on TL seem to be very sceptical about anything other than MMMGV for TvP, but I really hope it does.
I was confused since I usually agree with you.
Blargh spent a few minutes trying to think about how to phrase my thoughts about Puma. Not quite satisfied with any format. I'll say I cautiously agree that you want competition to be pure and about winning, but there's this silly fallacy in "e-sports" that being a fan means being supportive and loving of everything. Being a fan and passionate about the sport is as much about dislike and negativity as it is about positive support of your stars. I love Stork with all my heart and I "hate" Fantasy with a passion. Fantasy is a fantastic player and in their most recent finals appearance, absolutely raped Stork. I sure as hell did not write congratz fantasy/deserved it/etc. on that thread after Stork got done. Puma represents many of the worst and most vile attributes of terran. Not the simple villany of baby-bit but a more sophisticated abuse of inherent strengths however wisely created and attributed to the races.Like fantasy he's definitely good, but unlike fantasy I am holding Puma's play to a higher bar.
Jjakji's thor observer sniping build is so awesome! I am really excited by it actually. I think it's a bit "broken" but I have been waiting ages to see someone implement it. I was super impressed by Jjijaki's PvT and finals performance. Probably more than a little influenced by the general results nad play this month.
I am still deeply worried about late game TvP. A lot of the TvP gsl matches I watched had screwy terran play. 1/1/1 is still a map and coinflippish thing (timings for the 2 gates/ robo after 1gate exp). In the late game in particular, you can still end up with the mass emp situation in which a toss army just gets diced up. If the games stay good though I'll happily accept the strength of ghosts.
This is a bit of a diversion but I am really enjoying the evolution of ZvP right now. I'll contend that the spore crawler change is going to have to be reverted eventually but the new styles that have developed recently are a pleasure to watch. Muta doomballs are irritating but I actually think it's a SC2 map design fault more than anything (compare free space around bases with BW bases. I.e. muta harass on Matchpoint or Sin chpung ryong or destination or andromeda).
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Time to switch to Random : )
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On December 08 2011 17:56 KingPwny wrote:
I don't understand your post. Things are finally balanced at the highest lvl, and now u want KA and FV back?
Oh, I'm not really worried about balance at the moment. There don't seem to be any glaring issues at all. I'm just still confused about Blizzard's design decisions, which I'd seperate a bit from just balance.
There just doesn't seem to be a great deal of variety in Protoss strategy. The only new "way to play" has been HerOic PvZ, while PvT has pretty much been defined by either mass Gateway + upgrades or Colossi tech, and PvZ always used to be more either gateway all-ins or turtling. PvP has just been... well, PvP.
I'm not pointing any fingers yet. I don't think SC2 has been ruined by X decision. I just remain perplexed as to why Blizzard removed two upgrades from Protoss, both of which changed the style of play, rather than tweaking them a la the Reaver, the Blue Flame hellion upgrade or the Mothership.
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So historically ZvT is the most imbalanced matchup favoring Terran. Now ZvP is most imbalanced matchup favoring Zerg. But it's interesting to note that if SD are taken into account the balance isn't too bad with a few rogue months here and there. It's also pretty cool to track dominant strategies. Like when 4gate and 6gate timing pushes were super strong Protoss has a nice hump x].
Nice graphs.
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On December 08 2011 17:51 SeaSwift wrote:
What I'm really excited about is the Jjakji/MVP half meching style of play in the early game for specific pushes. I don't really know whether those styles will carry on into standard play, and people on TL seem to be very sceptical about anything other than MMMGV for TvP, but I really hope it does.
People need to stop calling 'mech' some pushes with Tanks before Protoss tier3, or would you call 1-1-1 'half-meching' too? Both Jjakji and MVP transition into bio after this push (if necessary). Building 3-4 Tanks along with Marines does not tell you anything about mech.
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On December 08 2011 19:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 17:51 SeaSwift wrote:What I'm really excited about is the Jjakji/MVP half meching style of play in the early game for specific pushes. I don't really know whether those styles will carry on into standard play, and people on TL seem to be very sceptical about anything other than MMMGV for TvP, but I really hope it does. People need to stop calling 'mech' some pushes with Tanks before Protoss tier3, or would you call 1-1-1 'half-meching' too? Both Jjakji and MVP transition into bio after this push (if necessary). Building 3-4 Tanks along with Marines does not tell you anything about mech.
Emphasis mine.
Definitely. Making your army out of mechanical units is, by definition, "mech". Maybe not in the jargon BW players used, in which mech had connotations of being defensive and going into the lategame, but mechanical units do not stop being mechanical units because they are used before you have 3 bases each o_0
If you go mech, then transition out of it into bio, then you have played mech for a period of time.
While building 3-4 tanks along with marines might not tell you much about Mech, building pure Thor/Raven/Banshee definitely does, even if it is just a 1 or 2base push.
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On December 08 2011 19:28 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 19:22 TheDwf wrote:On December 08 2011 17:51 SeaSwift wrote:What I'm really excited about is the Jjakji/MVP half meching style of play in the early game for specific pushes. I don't really know whether those styles will carry on into standard play, and people on TL seem to be very sceptical about anything other than MMMGV for TvP, but I really hope it does. People need to stop calling 'mech' some pushes with Tanks before Protoss tier3, or would you call 1-1-1 'half-meching' too? Both Jjakji and MVP transition into bio after this push (if necessary). Building 3-4 Tanks along with Marines does not tell you anything about mech. Emphasis mine. Definitely. Making your army out of mechanical units is, by definition, "mech". Maybe not in the jargon BW players used, in which mech had connotations of being defensive and going into the lategame, but mechanical units do not stop being mechanical units because they are used before you have 3 bases each o_0 If you go mech, then transition out of it into bio, then you have played mech for a period of time. While building 3-4 tanks along with marines might not tell you much about Mech, building pure Thor/Raven/Banshee definitely does, even if it is just a 1 or 2base push.
Yea, but it's of the same thread as a proxy stargate play from Protoss. However, nobody seriously thinks stargate play is a serious answer to "how do I win against Terran?" The essential point being that you're investing in something that does not inherently lead you to a later stage in the game. You invest in tech which only has the purpose to be used once or twice in an attack, then discarded, as lost investment.
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you're really considerate aren't you .__. with that colorblind version too. i bet 99% of the people wouldn't even think about something like that when making their graphs.. or just any color representations. good for you :D
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On December 08 2011 19:36 aksfjh wrote:
Yea, but it's of the same thread as a proxy stargate play from Protoss. However, nobody seriously thinks stargate play is a serious answer to "how do I win against Terran?" The essential point being that you're investing in something that does not inherently lead you to a later stage in the game. You invest in tech which only has the purpose to be used once or twice in an attack, then discarded, as lost investment.
Perhaps, but I think it's still unexplored. The sheer number of different timing attacks Terran can do using Mech shows that it isn't a one-trick-pony like the 3gate VR you mentioned. Of course, I suspect the Korean Terrans know quite a bit more about the game than I do, but the few times I've seen multiple base mech play it's looked very successful.
I'd also like to mention that you are wrong saying that Stargate play does not help you win in a standard game. Both MC and HerO frequently use 1base Phoenix to open up into a macro game, partly because it destroys any kind of 1-1-1 and partly because it makes Medivac drops almost worthless, and partly because they are one of the only decent harassment units Protoss has. Void Rays do not help much in a standard game, but Stargate play does work as part of an early-midgame investment.
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On December 08 2011 16:49 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
I know a single month can't represent the overall trend, but if it counts for anything, it looks like a simple ZvP tweak and a ZvT tweak would do pretty well in the future.
That said, HOTS is going to break the game bigtime lol.
tank god for that, because protoss is underpowered in the fun factor of the game...
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EPT
