• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 18:54
CET 00:54
KST 08:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Dark completes military service, returns to SC29[BSL23] RO16 Group Stage19Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?2Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175
StarCraft 2
General
Greetings.. Dark completes military service, returns to SC2 No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Serral's getting trashed by New Catsle's Mind Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Dark returns! GSL CK #7 4v4 Team Battle (Nov 19) soO & FanTaSy return! SC2 Kevin Scrim 4v4 (Nov 16) RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery BW General Discussion Recommended BW Settings for Mouse and Video Starcraft:Brood War Discord Servers [BSL23] RO16 Group Stage
Tourneys
[BSL23] Ro16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET [$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Bisu's Team vs Shuttle's Team 2026-11-14
Strategy
Pluto's TvP 5Marine 2Medic Push Simple Questions, Simple Answers Infested Terran strategies in 2026 Nuke strategy worked in K-League 2026-11-09
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Free Space RTS Game, optimised f. Phone/Tablet etc List of Game Threads The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Trading/Investing Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The time I organised my…
AssyrianKing
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 12249 users

[Nov] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 28

Forum Index > SC2 General
798 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 26 27 28 29 30 40 Next All
Laughing
Profile Joined January 2011
United States44 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 15:27:20
December 08 2011 15:25 GMT
#541
Imo the graph reflects quite heavily the meta-game, best example I can give is how ghost timings against toss started getting popular around mid 2011, which are terran's highest points in the graph.

Edit*: Ignoring the "weird" December period.
hasuterrans
Profile Joined April 2009
United States614 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 15:32:14
December 08 2011 15:28 GMT
#542
On December 09 2011 00:16 Deadeight wrote:
Differences of a few percent, that's pretty cool. I hope people did note the scale/values not just the relative magnitudes of the lines. A few percent is what I would call balanced pretty much, totally accountable to "meta-game" shifts and the rise of good players (as I am assuming the data is done by games, not by individual player win percentage, and better players get further in tournaments and win more games...). That's a point actually.

@hasuterrans Did you take the win percentage of all P, T & Z games? I'm guessing so from the OP. Another way to do it is to average individual players win percentages in particular match ups, so that exceptional individual players (e.g. Nestea, or MC when he dominated) aren't over-represented just because they play more games. I defer to your superior knowledge on this ofc but just interested on your thinking on it.

+ Show Spoiler +
The more you win, the further in the tournament you get, so the more games you play. Overall I guess that doesn't make a big difference though and all three races probably have an identical gaussian distribution of players, so same effect upon all three.


I didn't make the graph I just posted it. You can tweet the guy (see link in op) who makes these or pm him. He's super responsive to suggestions. His TL id is Ctuchik.
Kznn
Profile Joined March 2011
Brazil9072 Posts
December 08 2011 15:37 GMT
#543
Protoss <3
rakoth
Profile Joined August 2011
Greece55 Posts
December 08 2011 15:52 GMT
#544
Every matchup within the 55-45 range is pretty ok imo, there are other stuff that can influence balance such as maps, metagame shifts and the time it takes the other race to respond, some players who perform really well and influence the percentage (especially in Korea) etc. The game looks pretty balanced right now, well untill the new HOTS units come along and destroy this
DreamChaser
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
1649 Posts
December 08 2011 16:01 GMT
#545
I didn't know toss were doing so poorly against zerg, but to be fair i only watch HerO's games and hes basically inflating the graph loll
Plays against every MU with nexus first.
Vapaach
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland994 Posts
December 08 2011 16:03 GMT
#546
Everything is looking quite nice But I think tvz is a matchup that needs to be addressed. Z seems too weak.
If you never try you never know. Sase - Mana - TLO - WhiteRa - Naniwa - Sheth - HuK
Applesqt
Profile Joined May 2011
United States206 Posts
December 08 2011 16:19 GMT
#547
On December 09 2011 01:03 Vapaach wrote:
Everything is looking quite nice But I think tvz is a matchup that needs to be addressed. Z seems too weak.

I'm guessing you play Zerg
Kira__
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden2672 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 16:22:44
December 08 2011 16:22 GMT
#548
On December 09 2011 01:19 Applesqt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 01:03 Vapaach wrote:
Everything is looking quite nice But I think tvz is a matchup that needs to be addressed. Z seems too weak.

I'm guessing you play Zerg


Well if you use these statistics to claim that terran was overpowered versus protoss before, or that it's the other way around since the patch... then you will have to draw the conclusion that terran is overpowered against zerg.


Edit: Personally I don't think this is the case; I think in general that win percentages is a useless way of measuring balance. But that's just me.
The truth is, Yagami-kun, I suspect that you may in fact be Kira.
Gravity3
Profile Joined June 2011
Bulgaria17 Posts
December 08 2011 16:31 GMT
#549
TvP is still imbalanced ,fix more Blizzard but nerf protoss instead this time.

User was warned for this post
Scan the island.
FlamingTurd
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1059 Posts
December 08 2011 16:31 GMT
#550
Hmm that is pretty awesome, although I'd really like to see there be more games than 279 ?? Did I really read that right? They did the stats off the results of 279 games? Honestly, there can be a significant difference between different batches of 279 games.. That's definitely NOT enough games to post stats about to be statistically correct. At least make it a 1k minimum or something before posting like this :-/ Hopefully I'm just reading it wrong.
Nerf MMMT!!! Liquid`Ret Hwaiting!!!
SeaSwift
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Scotland4486 Posts
December 08 2011 16:33 GMT
#551
On December 09 2011 01:31 Gravity3 wrote:
TvP is still imbalanced ,fix more Blizzard but nerf protoss instead this time.


Yup. These stats conclusively prove beyond doubt that those cheaper upgrades and the EMP nerf makes PvT absolutely broken in favour of the Protoss.

...
Wtamer
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada131 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 16:39:28
December 08 2011 16:36 GMT
#552
On December 09 2011 01:31 FlamingTurd wrote:
Hmm that is pretty awesome, although I'd really like to see there be more games than 279 ?? Did I really read that right? They did the stats off the results of 279 games? Honestly, there can be a significant difference between different batches of 279 games.. That's definitely NOT enough games to post stats about to be statistically correct. At least make it a 1k minimum or something before posting like this :-/ Hopefully I'm just reading it wrong.

Yeah, for the korean stats that's not a whole lot of games.
On the other hand, there's not exactly a whole lot of korean games PERIOD, so it'd be kind of hard to get 1000 games/month for the korean stats. Just the way things work out unfortunately. :/
So take the stats with a grain of salt, I guess? Don't overreact to sudden changes?

EDIT:
On December 09 2011 01:31 Gravity3 wrote:
TvP is still imbalanced ,fix more Blizzard but nerf protoss instead this time.

Seriously, dude. It's been one month. One bad month. Just chill and let the game develop a little.
Tomken
Profile Joined January 2010
Norway1144 Posts
December 08 2011 16:42 GMT
#553
P>T, T>Z, Z>P 'same' as bw? kekekeke
MBCGame HERO FIGHTING!!!~
sVnteen
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2238 Posts
December 08 2011 16:47 GMT
#554
On December 05 2011 20:19 rpgalon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2011 20:17 StiX wrote:
Does anyone thinks its funny that in:
PvT Protoss has the better end
ZvT Terran has the better end
ZvP Zerg has the better end
?

it's the easiest way to achiev balance, a counter systen



lol
so you think blizzard is trying to balance the game by making Terran win vs zerg zerg win vs Protoss and Protoss winning vs Terran?

thats kinda stupid since it is obviously not the way it is
MY LIFE STARTS NOW ♥
Perfect
Profile Joined August 2010
United States322 Posts
December 08 2011 17:00 GMT
#555
Very interesting. Must by why I (terran player) dropped down to diamond.
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
December 08 2011 17:02 GMT
#556
On December 09 2011 02:00 Perfect wrote:
Very interesting. Must by why I (terran player) dropped down to diamond.


It's also the reason why I'm not a bonjwa yet.
MMA: The true King of Wings
creamer
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada128 Posts
December 08 2011 17:06 GMT
#557
I am so happy we will not see protoss crying any more that was getting old. Nice to see the game getting balanced
MKP - Best player of all time
Bajsgrodan
Profile Joined November 2010
Afghanistan408 Posts
December 08 2011 17:10 GMT
#558
>zerg player< "Z is weak buff it"
>protoss player< "toss is weak buff toss"
>terran player< "I like nachos!"

Why would anyone who plays anything else then random ever have any saying in whats balanced or whats not? I mean clearly evry opinion here is biased as hell:D
My name sucks!
Raambo11
Profile Joined April 2011
United States828 Posts
December 08 2011 17:43 GMT
#559
On December 09 2011 01:22 Kira__ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 01:19 Applesqt wrote:
On December 09 2011 01:03 Vapaach wrote:
Everything is looking quite nice But I think tvz is a matchup that needs to be addressed. Z seems too weak.

I'm guessing you play Zerg


Well if you use these statistics to claim that terran was overpowered versus protoss before, or that it's the other way around since the patch... then you will have to draw the conclusion that terran is overpowered against zerg.


Edit: Personally I don't think this is the case; I think in general that win percentages is a useless way of measuring balance. But that's just me.


The KR stats may be surprising, but I can virtually assure you the reason is lack of infestor usage as everyone in KR goes muta ling bling. The more people start to use infestor the more Z will start winning vs T.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 08 2011 17:51 GMT
#560
On December 09 2011 02:43 Raambo11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 01:22 Kira__ wrote:
On December 09 2011 01:19 Applesqt wrote:
On December 09 2011 01:03 Vapaach wrote:
Everything is looking quite nice But I think tvz is a matchup that needs to be addressed. Z seems too weak.

I'm guessing you play Zerg


Well if you use these statistics to claim that terran was overpowered versus protoss before, or that it's the other way around since the patch... then you will have to draw the conclusion that terran is overpowered against zerg.


Edit: Personally I don't think this is the case; I think in general that win percentages is a useless way of measuring balance. But that's just me.


The KR stats may be surprising, but I can virtually assure you the reason is lack of infestor usage as everyone in KR goes muta ling bling. The more people start to use infestor the more Z will start winning vs T.

and what is that based upon?
"I can assure you, once Terrans start to build only medivacs without any units that can actually shoot the terran winrates will reach 100%"...

There are various reasons why players play infestors or why players play mutalisks. From what you can read on TL, you will hear most high level Terrans say that they are more comfortable against early Infestors than against early mutalisks.
Prev 1 26 27 28 29 30 40 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL
05:00
S23 - Ro16 Group A
TerrOr vs OyAji
UltrA vs Gosudark
ZZZero.O240
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 98
SpeCial 15
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 240
Dota 2
420jenkins692
League of Legends
gofns9941
JimRising 1059
Counter-Strike
zeus806
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor222
Other Games
summit1g6674
tarik_tv4349
Grubby2556
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2203
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 32
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 8
• HerbMon 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos4934
Other Games
• imaqtpie590
• Shiphtur273
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10h 6m
WardiTV Invitational
12h 6m
IPSL
17h 6m
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
BSL
20h 6m
Artosis vs Dewalt
Ret vs Tech
SOOP
1d 10h
soO vs FanTaSy
WardiTV Weekly
1d 12h
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
GSL
4 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
BSL
6 days
eOnzErG vs StRyKeR
Cross vs JDConan
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-13
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
Individual League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Proleague 2026-11-14
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

YSL S4
Sector 591
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
StarCraft2 Weekly Open Tournament 2026 Grand Finals
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
IEM Kraków 2027
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.