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[Nov] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 29

Forum Index > SC2 General
798 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 27 28 29 30 31 40 Next All
1st_Panzer_Div.
Profile Joined November 2010
United States621 Posts
December 08 2011 17:58 GMT
#561
Interesting thing about imbalances. If at some point a race is imbalacned, that race will win more than their skill level would provide. If the imbalance is removed then that race will immediately lose more, as they get re-balanced against appropriate level opponents.

That also becomes less relevant the higher up in play you go, but a lot of these games are not from the top 10 players in the world.

This is why for example blizzard removed KA, despite the win rates being nearly 50% for PvT. They saw an imbalance and removed it.
Manager, Team RIP ZeeZ
SafeAsCheese
Profile Joined June 2011
United States4924 Posts
December 08 2011 18:04 GMT
#562
On December 09 2011 02:58 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
Interesting thing about imbalances. If at some point a race is imbalacned, that race will win more than their skill level would provide. If the imbalance is removed then that race will immediately lose more, as they get re-balanced against appropriate level opponents.

That also becomes less relevant the higher up in play you go, but a lot of these games are not from the top 10 players in the world.

This is why for example blizzard removed KA, despite the win rates being nearly 50% for PvT. They saw an imbalance and removed it.


It was OP vs zerg as well.

Protoss just had to sit on 3 base and max out.

Zerg then tries to counter attack or base trade, because their army can't win, yet you can warp in storms anywhere with banked gas and melt the army so easily as it tries to pass buildings
MVTaylor
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2893 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 18:19:36
December 08 2011 18:17 GMT
#563
Oh, look, in Korea, where the highest skilled players are (which as everyone says, is what should balance the game around) Protoss are over 50% in both their match ups since the latest patch!
@followMVT
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 18:26:18
December 08 2011 18:24 GMT
#564
On December 09 2011 03:04 SafeAsCheese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 02:58 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
Interesting thing about imbalances. If at some point a race is imbalacned, that race will win more than their skill level would provide. If the imbalance is removed then that race will immediately lose more, as they get re-balanced against appropriate level opponents.

That also becomes less relevant the higher up in play you go, but a lot of these games are not from the top 10 players in the world.

This is why for example blizzard removed KA, despite the win rates being nearly 50% for PvT. They saw an imbalance and removed it.


It was OP vs zerg as well.

Protoss just had to sit on 3 base and max out.

Zerg then tries to counter attack or base trade, because their army can't win, yet you can warp in storms anywhere with banked gas and melt the army so easily as it tries to pass buildings


And it also led to bad gameplay. "Hey I'm completly caught off guard, yet it doesn't matter at all!"
(not to say it was the Protoss players fault... it was simply viable to not think about defending bases, so noone would waste APM and ressources on defense)
perestain
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany308 Posts
December 08 2011 18:26 GMT
#565
Appearantly zerg has a slight edge after the last patch,

otherwise winrates appear pretty symmetric in that p>t, z>p, and terran only doing slightly better than zerg. If maps will be a tiny bit less favorable for zerg it might be perfect.

To bad HOTS is around the corner to ruin everything again.

No matter how hot it gets, sooner or later there's a cool breeze coming in.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 08 2011 18:28 GMT
#566
On December 09 2011 03:26 perestain wrote:
Appearantly zerg has a slight edge after the last patch,

otherwise winrates appear pretty symmetric in that p>t, z>p, and terran only doing slightly better than zerg. If maps will be a tiny bit less favorable for zerg it might be perfect.

To bad HOTS is around the corner to ruin everything again.


HotS is another game... It won't change anything about WoL winrates.
trias_e
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States520 Posts
December 08 2011 18:30 GMT
#567
On December 09 2011 03:28 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 03:26 perestain wrote:
Appearantly zerg has a slight edge after the last patch,

otherwise winrates appear pretty symmetric in that p>t, z>p, and terran only doing slightly better than zerg. If maps will be a tiny bit less favorable for zerg it might be perfect.

To bad HOTS is around the corner to ruin everything again.


HotS is another game... It won't change anything about WoL winrates.


Who will care about WoL winrates when HotS is released?
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
December 08 2011 18:30 GMT
#568
On December 09 2011 03:26 perestain wrote:
Appearantly zerg has a slight edge after the last patch,

otherwise winrates appear pretty symmetric in that p>t, z>p, and terran only doing slightly better than zerg. If maps will be a tiny bit less favorable for zerg it might be perfect.

To bad HOTS is around the corner to ruin everything again.


To be fair, HOTS will fix a lot of things that are wrong with SC2. Possibly to the point where we don't complain nearly as much about balance. We might get worse numbers, but it could end up being a better experience for players and spectators alike.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 08 2011 18:32 GMT
#569
On December 09 2011 03:30 trias_e wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 03:28 Big J wrote:
On December 09 2011 03:26 perestain wrote:
Appearantly zerg has a slight edge after the last patch,

otherwise winrates appear pretty symmetric in that p>t, z>p, and terran only doing slightly better than zerg. If maps will be a tiny bit less favorable for zerg it might be perfect.

To bad HOTS is around the corner to ruin everything again.


HotS is another game... It won't change anything about WoL winrates.


Who will care about WoL winrates when HotS is released?

People who whine around about HotS and therefore should play WoL.
BlueyD
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada437 Posts
December 08 2011 18:33 GMT
#570
I like how protoss has its first month with any matchup over 50% since June, and suddenly people call the race imbalanced.

Once terrans get a feel for what the nerfed ghost can still do and can't do anymore, I expect the matchup will become a bit more even in terms of winrates.
Zealot Chaaaaarge!
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
December 08 2011 18:35 GMT
#571
On December 09 2011 03:33 BlueyD wrote:
I like how protoss has its first month with any matchup over 50% since June, and suddenly people call the race imbalanced.

Once terrans get a feel for what the nerfed ghost can still do and can't do anymore, I expect the matchup will become a bit more even in terms of winrates.

You realize that Terrans have been complaining about Protoss for MONTHS. It's not about winrates, but instead how Terran feels when they win or lose games. Graphs just substantiate those feelings.
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
December 08 2011 18:36 GMT
#572
On December 09 2011 03:30 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 03:26 perestain wrote:
Appearantly zerg has a slight edge after the last patch,

otherwise winrates appear pretty symmetric in that p>t, z>p, and terran only doing slightly better than zerg. If maps will be a tiny bit less favorable for zerg it might be perfect.

To bad HOTS is around the corner to ruin everything again.


To be fair, HOTS will fix a lot of things that are wrong with SC2. Possibly to the point where we don't complain nearly as much about balance. We might get worse numbers, but it could end up being a better experience for players and spectators alike.


I really hope that they'll kill warpgate. But, somehow, I doubt it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 18:42:19
December 08 2011 18:42 GMT
#573
On December 09 2011 03:36 Erasme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 03:30 aksfjh wrote:
On December 09 2011 03:26 perestain wrote:
Appearantly zerg has a slight edge after the last patch,

otherwise winrates appear pretty symmetric in that p>t, z>p, and terran only doing slightly better than zerg. If maps will be a tiny bit less favorable for zerg it might be perfect.

To bad HOTS is around the corner to ruin everything again.


To be fair, HOTS will fix a lot of things that are wrong with SC2. Possibly to the point where we don't complain nearly as much about balance. We might get worse numbers, but it could end up being a better experience for players and spectators alike.


I really hope that they'll kill warpgate. But, somehow, I doubt it.

It would be literally the best thing they could do to make SC2 a better game, but unfortunately Blizz will probably stick to the concept and PvAnything will continue to be terrible.
Flonomenalz
Profile Joined May 2011
Nigeria3519 Posts
December 08 2011 18:42 GMT
#574
On December 09 2011 03:35 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 03:33 BlueyD wrote:
I like how protoss has its first month with any matchup over 50% since June, and suddenly people call the race imbalanced.

Once terrans get a feel for what the nerfed ghost can still do and can't do anymore, I expect the matchup will become a bit more even in terms of winrates.

You realize that Terrans have been complaining about Protoss for MONTHS. It's not about winrates, but instead how Terran feels when they win or lose games. Graphs just substantiate those feelings.

I'm sorry, but which Terran was complaining when they were blanket EMP'ing entire armies and single EMPs were doing almost 1000 damage?

Lmfao come on now.

I love crazymoving
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 08 2011 18:43 GMT
#575
On December 09 2011 03:35 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 03:33 BlueyD wrote:
I like how protoss has its first month with any matchup over 50% since June, and suddenly people call the race imbalanced.

Once terrans get a feel for what the nerfed ghost can still do and can't do anymore, I expect the matchup will become a bit more even in terms of winrates.

You realize that Terrans have been complaining about Protoss for MONTHS. It's not about winrates, but instead how Terran feels when they win or lose games. Graphs just substantiate those feelings.


Well I feel pretty crappy when I lose games and pretty awesome when I win them. I don't think the graphs have a lot to do with those feelings.

Protoss have been complaining about terran since launch and the graphs reflect that too. The only thing that this shows is that protoss had a good month against terrans. It doesn't show that Terran is weaker or horrible. If that were true, than every month where terran had a higher win rate would be a month were protoss was underpowered and weak. What would that say about every win that a terran player got against protoss?



I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Zerker
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada201 Posts
December 08 2011 18:46 GMT
#576
protoss looking PRETTY good after the upgrade patch Pretty impressive stats this month.
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
December 08 2011 18:46 GMT
#577
On December 09 2011 03:24 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 03:04 SafeAsCheese wrote:
On December 09 2011 02:58 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
Interesting thing about imbalances. If at some point a race is imbalacned, that race will win more than their skill level would provide. If the imbalance is removed then that race will immediately lose more, as they get re-balanced against appropriate level opponents.

That also becomes less relevant the higher up in play you go, but a lot of these games are not from the top 10 players in the world.

This is why for example blizzard removed KA, despite the win rates being nearly 50% for PvT. They saw an imbalance and removed it.


It was OP vs zerg as well.

Protoss just had to sit on 3 base and max out.

Zerg then tries to counter attack or base trade, because their army can't win, yet you can warp in storms anywhere with banked gas and melt the army so easily as it tries to pass buildings


And it also led to bad gameplay. "Hey I'm completly caught off guard, yet it doesn't matter at all!"
(not to say it was the Protoss players fault... it was simply viable to not think about defending bases, so noone would waste APM and ressources on defense)

Is it really bad gameplay for Protoss to have one cushion that prevents them from losing the instant they make a mistake? The planetary fortress makes Terran never have to think about defending bases, and that is much cheaper than constantly having to warp in templars every time 1 medivac flies near a nexus. Why aren't you calling that OP? IMO removing KA led to bad gameplay because that created situations where you're playing a PvT and you auto-lose from one unscouted drop killing a crucial nexus (something that will never happen to Terran due to orbital lifting off, planetary fortress repairing, and low DPS of whatever is dropped). It takes, what, 10 seconds for a group of marauders to kill a nexus? It's rather absurd to me that in a 20 minute game, you only have to "outplay" your opponent for 10 seconds of it to win. That to me is bad gameplay. I would think in well-designed game you win by consistently outplaying your opponent throughout the course of the game, i.e. at least 11 minutes out of 20. Not 10 seconds.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
brentsen
Profile Joined November 2010
1252 Posts
December 08 2011 18:53 GMT
#578
I had a feeling that the game is currently in a pretty good state, glad to see that the stats seem to agree.
shuurai
Profile Joined December 2011
75 Posts
December 08 2011 18:55 GMT
#579
As most of you know, terrans are already sparse on ladder. If this "balancing" trend continues, it'll result in even more PvP/ZvZ , until everyone left will be totally fed up -- and there won't be any more T to blame, either. Very redeeming thought.
Koreans got Seoul
Techno
Profile Joined June 2010
1900 Posts
December 08 2011 18:58 GMT
#580
On December 09 2011 03:46 iamke55 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2011 03:24 Big J wrote:
On December 09 2011 03:04 SafeAsCheese wrote:
On December 09 2011 02:58 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
Interesting thing about imbalances. If at some point a race is imbalacned, that race will win more than their skill level would provide. If the imbalance is removed then that race will immediately lose more, as they get re-balanced against appropriate level opponents.

That also becomes less relevant the higher up in play you go, but a lot of these games are not from the top 10 players in the world.

This is why for example blizzard removed KA, despite the win rates being nearly 50% for PvT. They saw an imbalance and removed it.


It was OP vs zerg as well.

Protoss just had to sit on 3 base and max out.

Zerg then tries to counter attack or base trade, because their army can't win, yet you can warp in storms anywhere with banked gas and melt the army so easily as it tries to pass buildings


And it also led to bad gameplay. "Hey I'm completly caught off guard, yet it doesn't matter at all!"
(not to say it was the Protoss players fault... it was simply viable to not think about defending bases, so noone would waste APM and ressources on defense)

Is it really bad gameplay for Protoss to have one cushion that prevents them from losing the instant they make a mistake? The planetary fortress makes Terran never have to think about defending bases, and that is much cheaper than constantly having to warp in templars every time 1 medivac flies near a nexus. Why aren't you calling that OP? IMO removing KA led to bad gameplay because that created situations where you're playing a PvT and you auto-lose from one unscouted drop killing a crucial nexus (something that will never happen to Terran due to orbital lifting off, planetary fortress repairing, and low DPS of whatever is dropped). It takes, what, 10 seconds for a group of marauders to kill a nexus? It's rather absurd to me that in a 20 minute game, you only have to "outplay" your opponent for 10 seconds of it to win. That to me is bad gameplay. I would think in well-designed game you win by consistently outplaying your opponent throughout the course of the game, i.e. at least 11 minutes out of 20. Not 10 seconds.

What are you trying to say here, Iamke? I'd like to hold you to a higher standard than the rest of the userbase here....
Hell, its awesome to LOSE to nukes!
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