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On December 09 2011 04:54 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:40 Cyro wrote:On December 09 2011 03:55 shuurai wrote:
As most of you know, terrans are already sparse on ladder. If this "balancing" trend continues, it'll result in even more PvP/ZvZ , until everyone left will be totally fed up -- and there won't be any more T to blame, either. Very redeeming thought. If it is the cost of a balanced endgame that can scale well as APM climbs without causing major imbalances, it is worth it. When a player looks at the competitive scene, and they see things that they beleive are just wrong (HuK vs Virus comes to mind a few months back, 1-1-1 with all scvs pulled, and then the exact same push with all scvs pulled 10 minutes later winning the game even though the first "all in" didnt put huk in a particularly bad position) they are demotivated to play and get better, what is the point if this shit still happens to the best players and there is seemingly nothing you can do about it, right? With game balance directed at the best of the best, you can fix all of your problems at any by just becoming better. In the current state of the game, plenty of high level pros frequently loose games to random high masters due to all ins, etc So what you're saying is that it's okay to continue with patches that effectively make Terran impossible to be competitive with at any but the highest level of play, because non-Terran players who see pros lose sometimes to silly cheeses will get demotivated to continue trying to play and get better? That's not even a disguised attempt at saying "Fuck Terran, I don't want to play or see Terran anymore".
Stats just speak differently. Apparently the sc2ranks.com stats are bugged, but I guess/hope that they still come close to the true race distribution: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/race/all/1
So fuck off with that low level argument that is simply not true.
If I hadn't learned the thousand and one responses to terran play, I could also whine all day how it is viable for terran to just slap the keyboard 5times on 1-2base, receive a completly random composition and just win, because I couldn't get a scout in against walls and marines. But you know what? That is what happens in starcraft. If you want a game in which every race is the same difficulty on all levels and all categories (micro, macro, multitasking, decision making, tight build order usage, volatility, terrain/map dependence...) you have to play a game in which there is only one race.
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On December 09 2011 04:54 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:40 Cyro wrote:On December 09 2011 03:55 shuurai wrote:
As most of you know, terrans are already sparse on ladder. If this "balancing" trend continues, it'll result in even more PvP/ZvZ , until everyone left will be totally fed up -- and there won't be any more T to blame, either. Very redeeming thought. If it is the cost of a balanced endgame that can scale well as APM climbs without causing major imbalances, it is worth it. When a player looks at the competitive scene, and they see things that they beleive are just wrong (HuK vs Virus comes to mind a few months back, 1-1-1 with all scvs pulled, and then the exact same push with all scvs pulled 10 minutes later winning the game even though the first "all in" didnt put huk in a particularly bad position) they are demotivated to play and get better, what is the point if this shit still happens to the best players and there is seemingly nothing you can do about it, right? With game balance directed at the best of the best, you can fix all of your problems at any by just becoming better. In the current state of the game, plenty of high level pros frequently loose games to random high masters due to all ins, etc So what you're saying is that it's okay to continue with patches that effectively make Terran impossible to be competitive with at any but the highest level of play, because non-Terran players who see pros lose sometimes to silly cheeses will get demotivated to continue trying to play and get better? That's not even a disguised attempt at saying "Fuck Terran, I don't want to play or see Terran anymore".
It isn't about Terran, it's about the concept, It's more important that the game is playable at the highest level with the most fairness than in silver league where no one cares about the results of a ladder game. Yes perfect balance at all levels is what would be best, but you have to start somewhere and pandering to the lower levels isn't the right place to start if you want a complex game. If the game were balanced for lower levels but on the same level of balance as a few months ago where GSL is all Terran every day the game gets boring for the majority of players because no matter how good they get, they see the image at the very top of only one race because the game has been balanced for the low levels like themselves. That isn't a good direction to take a competitive game.
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Based on the brilliant posts on this page and my surprise about how some people watch/play the game so much and yet have such great analysis, I think there are issues external to the game affecting people's win rates.
"have to play like gods"
"EMP's are, as he also mentionned, needed to win any straight up Ball vs Ball battle, they don't tip the battle to terran's favor, they simply balance it out. "
Good thing upgrades scale equally among the races too.
The uselessness of PF posts are incredible. If you're not grasping Iamke's point you're either being willfully obtuse or have problem A.
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On December 09 2011 04:54 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:40 Cyro wrote:On December 09 2011 03:55 shuurai wrote:
As most of you know, terrans are already sparse on ladder. If this "balancing" trend continues, it'll result in even more PvP/ZvZ , until everyone left will be totally fed up -- and there won't be any more T to blame, either. Very redeeming thought. If it is the cost of a balanced endgame that can scale well as APM climbs without causing major imbalances, it is worth it. When a player looks at the competitive scene, and they see things that they beleive are just wrong (HuK vs Virus comes to mind a few months back, 1-1-1 with all scvs pulled, and then the exact same push with all scvs pulled 10 minutes later winning the game even though the first "all in" didnt put huk in a particularly bad position) they are demotivated to play and get better, what is the point if this shit still happens to the best players and there is seemingly nothing you can do about it, right? With game balance directed at the best of the best, you can fix all of your problems at any by just becoming better. In the current state of the game, plenty of high level pros frequently loose games to random high masters due to all ins, etc So what you're saying is that it's okay to continue with patches that effectively make Terran impossible to be competitive with at any but the highest level of play, because non-Terran players who see pros lose sometimes to silly cheeses will get demotivated to continue trying to play and get better? That's not even a disguised attempt at saying "Fuck Terran, I don't want to play or see Terran anymore".
I'd rather have a game balanced at the highest levels than at any other level, yes. If they can keep that level of balance AND balance the game at other levels then sure, do so, but not at the sacrifice of high-level balance.
In BW Terran was ridiculously hard to pick up and learn, but that's not what really matters.
I also hate that people try and use these to show balance/imbalance. There were months in BW where TvZ was extremely T sided, but then Zergs swung it back in their favor by changing the way they play. If Protoss has a 80% win-rate vs. Zerg for a month that doesn't mean Protoss is truly imbalanced, Zergs could just be playing poorly.
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On December 09 2011 05:44 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 04:54 forsooth wrote:On December 09 2011 04:40 Cyro wrote:On December 09 2011 03:55 shuurai wrote:
As most of you know, terrans are already sparse on ladder. If this "balancing" trend continues, it'll result in even more PvP/ZvZ , until everyone left will be totally fed up -- and there won't be any more T to blame, either. Very redeeming thought. If it is the cost of a balanced endgame that can scale well as APM climbs without causing major imbalances, it is worth it. When a player looks at the competitive scene, and they see things that they beleive are just wrong (HuK vs Virus comes to mind a few months back, 1-1-1 with all scvs pulled, and then the exact same push with all scvs pulled 10 minutes later winning the game even though the first "all in" didnt put huk in a particularly bad position) they are demotivated to play and get better, what is the point if this shit still happens to the best players and there is seemingly nothing you can do about it, right? With game balance directed at the best of the best, you can fix all of your problems at any by just becoming better. In the current state of the game, plenty of high level pros frequently loose games to random high masters due to all ins, etc So what you're saying is that it's okay to continue with patches that effectively make Terran impossible to be competitive with at any but the highest level of play, because non-Terran players who see pros lose sometimes to silly cheeses will get demotivated to continue trying to play and get better? That's not even a disguised attempt at saying "Fuck Terran, I don't want to play or see Terran anymore". I'd rather have a game balanced at the highest levels than at any other level, yes. If they can keep that level of balance AND balance the game at other levels then sure, do so, but not at the sacrifice of high-level balance. In BW Terran was ridiculously hard to pick up and learn, but that's not what really matters. I also hate that people try and use these to show balance/imbalance. There were months in BW where TvZ was extremely T sided, but then Zergs swung it back in their favor by changing the way they play. If Protoss has a 80% win-rate vs. Zerg for a month that doesn't mean Protoss is truly imbalanced, Zergs could just be playing poorly.
You also have to remember that it is near impossible to balance the game at low level due to skill differences. Under GM and high masters, the winrates are all close to 50% because that's how the matchmaking system works. This is due to the fact that it is hard to quantify "skill".
Assume there are only two races: Race A and Race B. Race A is super easy to play and Race B extremely difficult. In diamond the winrates between the two races will be near 50% due to matchmaking. The only way to come to the conclusion that A is imbalanced is by looking at the top tier of players. In SC2's case, it is not quite as drastic as there are 3 races, so it keeps it somewhat in check (if your TvP rate blows because of imbalance, you will compensate by winning in TvT and TvZ).
TLDR: The root cause of balancing the game around top tier players is because that is the only tier where you can assume a reasonable equal skill level between the two players.
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Impressed by the overall balance.
Very nice Zs Ps and Ts.
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Looking at these numbers is really interesting. The game isn't completely balanced yet, but it's incredibly close, which is pretty amazing considering the relatively short amount of time it's been out.
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On December 09 2011 06:02 Gary Oak wrote:
Looking at these numbers is really interesting. The game isn't completely balanced yet, but it's incredibly close, which is pretty amazing considering the relatively short amount of time it's been out.
You can't even say it's imbalanced at all from this. It could very well be that the people playing one race are just better (practice more, better mechanics, more dedication, etc.) than the players of another.
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On December 09 2011 05:37 Suerte wrote:
If the game were balanced for lower levels but on the same level of balance as a few months ago where GSL is all Terran every day the game gets boring for the majority of players
Until very recently, race distribution within the GSL (code S) wasn't a valid balance indicator at all due to its inflexible structure. And in the last "balance report" Blizzard published (sometime after 1.4.0), things were looking more balanced than they do now after yet another terran nerf. I'm relatively confident when I say that next (or rather this...) month's stats will show an even more skewed picture. I'm ok with terran having a steeper learning curve, as I like challenges (and terrans, being human after all), but it should definitely be considered that maybe, this time it has gone too far with the nerfs.
And already, I hear a lot of calls for...you guessed it...more nerfs. Next topic seems to be snipe. Then maybe PFs. Then Mules. By then it won't matter because absolutely noone will be bothered to ever play Terran again.
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I think blizzard should keep it this way until HOTS comes out, the small percentage of differens in the matchups could easilly be fixed by metagame shifts. Depends on how long it is until HOTS though, knowing blizzard ot will be released sometime 2013 if we are lucky
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On December 09 2011 06:28 hmunkey wrote:
You can't even say it's imbalanced at all from this. It could very well be that the people playing one race are just better (practice more, better mechanics, more dedication, etc.) than the players of another.
That certainly didn't qualify as a valid argument before, therefore it definitely shouldn't now.
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On December 09 2011 06:48 shuurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:37 Suerte wrote:
If the game were balanced for lower levels but on the same level of balance as a few months ago where GSL is all Terran every day the game gets boring for the majority of players
Until very recently, race distribution within the GSL (code S) wasn't a valid balance indicator at all due to its inflexible structure. And in the last "balance report" Blizzard published (sometime after 1.4.0), things were looking more balanced than they do now after yet another terran nerf. I'm relatively confident when I say that next (or rather this...) month's stats will show an even more skewed picture. I'm ok with terran having a steeper learning curve, as I like challenges (and terrans, being human after all), but it should definitely be considered that maybe, this time it has gone too far with the nerfs. And already, I hear a lot of calls for...you guessed it...more nerfs. Next topic seems to be snipe. Then maybe PFs. Then Mules. By then it won't matter because absolutely noone will be bothered to ever play Terran again.
I normally try to stay away from balance threads, but I just wanted to pop in to call this one out for plain absurdity.
"Even more skewed"? Last I checked, the graph was the most equal it has been in months.
While race distribution wasn't a great balance indicator, the race winrate WAS. And it clearly showed TvP as being Terran favoured for a long period of time.
"I hear a lot of calls for..." - this is a common part of most whiners' posts. They don't want to whine alone, so they invent an opposition to "argue" against. While there are some people calling for more nerfs, the majority of people seem to be quite happy that Terran does not require any straight up nerfs. In fact, there seem to be more people whining about how "bad" Terran is than how good it is.
I know that hyperbole can help get a point across, but everyone in this thread seems to be saying the end of SC2 balance is nigh, and soon the game will be so broken that nobody will play it. Just calm down and think about what you type before you press "Post", please.
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The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss.
Another thing as well. Do we all want a balanced game here? It's very sad with those toss players coming in saying "huurp derrp Terran was OP for a year and now it's our turn heeerrp derrrp." I'm not sure if I can speak for most Terrans, but as a Terran player myself I want to see a "balanced" game. Not, 1 month Terran can be favoured and the 2nd month Protoss can be favoured. I mean really, it's been a god damn year already and the T v P MU is still in a shambles.
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed!
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On December 09 2011 07:01 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 06:48 shuurai wrote:On December 09 2011 05:37 Suerte wrote:
If the game were balanced for lower levels but on the same level of balance as a few months ago where GSL is all Terran every day the game gets boring for the majority of players
Until very recently, race distribution within the GSL (code S) wasn't a valid balance indicator at all due to its inflexible structure. And in the last "balance report" Blizzard published (sometime after 1.4.0), things were looking more balanced than they do now after yet another terran nerf. I'm relatively confident when I say that next (or rather this...) month's stats will show an even more skewed picture. I'm ok with terran having a steeper learning curve, as I like challenges (and terrans, being human after all), but it should definitely be considered that maybe, this time it has gone too far with the nerfs. And already, I hear a lot of calls for...you guessed it...more nerfs. Next topic seems to be snipe. Then maybe PFs. Then Mules. By then it won't matter because absolutely noone will be bothered to ever play Terran again. I normally try to stay away from balance threads, but I just wanted to pop in to call this one out for plain absurdity.
Techno never forgets a name.
On November 11 2011 04:24 SeaSwift wrote:
You say that Terrans aren't whining and then produce a whole fucking passage of whine. There is far more Terran whining in this thread than Protoss, strangely enough. If you can contradict yourself within the space of 2 short paragraphs, don't expect people to argue with you about the actual ideas of your post.
On November 10 2011 06:52 SeaSwift wrote:
Come on. All [ghosts] require is a Barracks with Tech Lab and a 150/50 building, with optional 150/150 Cloak (in no way necessary for the unit to fulfil it's role) and 100/100 +25 starting energy (something which Infestors are lucky to have, and HTs are sorely lacking).
You're listing all the other positives of Stalkers. None of them are DPS. The DPS of Stalkers is shit -> if Dimaga did complain about it, that's some BS. If Dimaga had complained about any of these, then yeah. Sure. But allegedly he didn't.
On November 09 2011 01:19 SeaSwift wrote:It isn't so much that the winrates are bad for this month. In BW they fluctuated a lot, sometimes to 60/40. But the important point is that they are getting consistently worse - this is no statistical fluctuation. There is a clear trend here, and you could extrapolate this out (assuming no patches) to show how poor PvX winrates would be in the future. EDIT: marvellosity, great minds think alike
On November 09 2011 02:35 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 02:34 Lorch wrote:On November 09 2011 02:31 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I hope this hits Korea asap so HuK can benefit when he plays his GSL matches--I assume that by the time it gets to the next round it will be live there, so MC can benefit as well.
It won't, Patch will be live soon on NA (or is it already?) tomorrow on EU and thursday on KR.  (( Sad Zealot is sad.
On November 09 2011 02:21 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 02:19 Teoita wrote:
And that's the best it's been in the last 6 months. Even at worst, mostly favoured for t, vs even at best, mostly unfavoured for p.
11 months actually. PvT winrates were slightly above 50% in the first month of release. Since then, it has been almost always <50%, with one month of about equality.
On November 09 2011 00:58 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:45 Quotidian wrote:On November 09 2011 00:36 SeaSwift wrote:On November 09 2011 00:33 Quotidian wrote:
I don't get why people are saying that the upgrade cost reduction will have no real effect on the game. Of course it will.. Why is the buff even there in the first place then, if it's so trivial, except for blizzard saying "hey, idiots! upgrade your units!" Warp Prism shield buff was minimal bullshit I'm getting so tired of protoss players acting like victims.. there's nothing "minimal" about any of the buffs they've received for the last few patches. We clearly disagree then. No need to write a vulgar, one word reply to only part of my post, then quickly edit in a general whine about Protoss players and an umbrella statement about buffs. I think most Protoss buffs have been fairly small and mostly just nods to enourage useage of X unit or Y strat. Blizzard hasn't changed the way Protoss works on any great level for the better.
...and then theres your signature.
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well you got your answer... everyone QQing about toss being op.... take a second look.
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Those are quite nice stats, interesting to look at... Its nice to see things have changed somewhat from last year (and this implies a more balanced game), though as many have said the game's balance cant be judged solely from TLPD :D
Only thing i'm wondering is what the mirror matchup win rates are!
+ Show Spoiler +I joke of course about mirrors
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On December 09 2011 07:30 Techno wrote:
Techno never forgets a name.
Indeed. And then, after all those posts, I got warned for calling someone a douchebag (I don't think it was related to balance), and then temp banned for talking about racism in an LR thread.
Since then, I tried to stop posting in anything remotely related to balance, or any other hotly debated topic, because I didn't want to get worked up about stuff and end up getting permed.
My signature? Yeah, that's from a time in which Protoss was definitely seen as underpowered, and it was a funny MC quote. I never had a reason to change it.
If you have a problem with my posting habits, take it to PMs.
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On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss.
why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin.
(note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills")
On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed!
Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else).
In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network.
So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y".
PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in)
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seems a lot more balanced, wonder how toss went from getting owned in pvt to kicking the shit out of terrans
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On December 09 2011 06:48 shuurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:37 Suerte wrote:
If the game were balanced for lower levels but on the same level of balance as a few months ago where GSL is all Terran every day the game gets boring for the majority of players
Until very recently, race distribution within the GSL (code S) wasn't a valid balance indicator at all due to its inflexible structure. And in the last "balance report" Blizzard published (sometime after 1.4.0), things were looking more balanced than they do now after yet another terran nerf. I'm relatively confident when I say that next (or rather this...) month's stats will show an even more skewed picture. I'm ok with terran having a steeper learning curve, as I like challenges (and terrans, being human after all), but it should definitely be considered that maybe, this time it has gone too far with the nerfs. And already, I hear a lot of calls for...you guessed it...more nerfs. Next topic seems to be snipe. Then maybe PFs. Then Mules. By then it won't matter because absolutely noone will be bothered to ever play Terran again.
It's just an example, all I'm saying is that if you see pro's only playing one race the game is dull to observe for the vast majority.
I find it odd that you're saying things have gone too far with the nerfs when this month the win percentages are incredibly close with the exception of TvZ in korea which is in Terrans favor, but still is within a 10% swing which really isn't even that bad.
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EPT
