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I said it should be considered that - perhaps -- this time the nerfs have gone too far. The major swing in TvP -- unprecedented in its scale, I might add -- lends some credibility to the thesis.
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On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in)
Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion?
- IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP.
- Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea.
- Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P
- In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now.
- It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility.
I can go on for ages with this........
To you next point;
Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut.
I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing.
Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on...
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 09 2011 08:20 Nazeron wrote:
seems a lot more balanced, wonder how toss went from getting owned in pvt to kicking the shit out of terrans
Double Forge and, in Korea, Calm Before the Storm. That and the EMP nerf i guess.
On topic: 1) for the first time in months, pvt is protoss favoured. It's been consistently terran favoured for what, 8 months now? Calm down before you start yelling ZOMG NURF P.
I also don't buy the whole "BUT TERRAN IS HARDER TO PLAY!" thing. Why would it be so? Is stim kiting really that hard? Queuing a drop to the back of someone's main? Focusing the colossi? Scouting templar vs colossus? Don't take this as an insult, balance whine or whatever, i just geniuinely do not understand why some people think that terran is so much harder because yes.
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I've noticed Terrans not dropping anywhere near enough on me (high Diamond Toss).
I really hope Terrans are still dropping. Thats one of the greatest weaknesses of Zealot/Archon. Go after the Shrine/Archives with your .75 attack speed stimmed Marauders. Drop 8 of them and watch the building fall in seconds.
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...the overall winrates look so balanced...yay!
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On December 09 2011 08:46 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 08:20 Nazeron wrote:
seems a lot more balanced, wonder how toss went from getting owned in pvt to kicking the shit out of terrans Double Forge and, in Korea, Calm Before the Storm. That and the EMP nerf i guess. On topic: 1) for the first time in months, pvt is protoss favoured. It's been consistently terran favoured for what, 8 months now? Calm down before you start yelling ZOMG NURF P. I also don't buy the whole "BUT TERRAN IS HARDER TO PLAY!" thing. Why would it be so? Is stim kiting really that hard? Queuing a drop to the back of someone's main? Focusing the colossi? Scouting templar vs colossus? Don't take this as an insult, balance whine or whatever, i just geniuinely do not understand why some people think that terran is so much harder because yes.
Im not gonna say Terran is harder, but stim kiting is actually pretty hard when you have to do it for 40 minutes.
EDIT: To all my Terran brethren: shut the fuck up and take it. Blizzard doesnt read TL anyways so if you wanna bitch go to Bnet.
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On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P - In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now. - It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility. I can go on for ages with this........ To you next point; Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut. I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing. Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on...
if u cant win any games in the later stages maybe ur macro is to blame.
and ppl talking about a huge swing in protoss favor for PvT means nerf is too much? LOL? it's only a huge swing cus TvP had a 67% win rate and now is losing slightly. same with ZvP, it used to have a rather noticeable Z favor and now its switched too. man some of these T posts are just too hilarious. ur now 46% vs P and ur complaining like crazy but u sure dont mind ur 58% vs Z. and dont even cite the "huge" win rate change because its not that far off from 50%. i guess always being ahead in every matchup has some ppl spoiled.
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On December 06 2011 23:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 23:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 23:15 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 23:12 Dalavita wrote:On December 06 2011 23:12 IMPrime wrote:
I'll just say this about toss...
- They suck earlygame
- They're OP lategame
As for what changes should happen, I know suggesting anything will instantly make people flame me, but I don't think anyone can disagree with the above 2 statements. Protoss doesn't suck earlygame. Neither is they OP lategame TT Agreed. It's never so black and white, and certainly not as exaggerated. I'm not gonna say they're OP. But I feel the general consensus among both terrans and protoss is that the protoss is much, much more comfortable in the late game when you have all tech paths and upgrades available, and the terran does their best to be aggressive immediately after ghost/medivacs start coming out. It's pretty obvious. Protoss keeps teching while terrans stop and just work on the same stuff.
I'd love to be able to use higher tech units against protoss, too bad they all suck against protoss. IE Siege Tanks. Thors, Cruisers, hell banshees too. 3/3 Siege Line with Hellions? With Full Energy Ghosts for EMP? Let me a move into your Fortress wall and still have all my units left over alive
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ZVT has never ever ever been balanced for Zerg.
Terran has always overpowered it since beta.
No hate, only statistics.
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On December 09 2011 09:05 TheTurk wrote:
ZVT has never ever ever been balanced for Zerg.
Terran has always overpowered it since beta.
No hate, only statistics.
52/48 worldwide aint too bad, isnt it?
Sure its worse in Korea, but theres way less Zergs in Korea and its a smaller sample size.
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On December 09 2011 09:05 TheTurk wrote:
ZVT has never ever ever been balanced for Zerg.
Terran has always overpowered it since beta.
No hate, only statistics.
I am going to disagree with you. The only thing I hate about terran is late game ghosts but other then that late game scenario I feel zerg vs terran is very balanced.
Not once in the match up when I am watching 2 top tier players playing do I think "wow nothing zerg could have done to win this game he played perfect but lost". Not once have I thought that. When a zerg loses in zvt I almost always feel the terran player played better and the zerg made mistakes he shouldn't have.
I main zerg and no I am not a terran player I just don't feel this match up is broken at all other then possibly ghosts 
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On December 09 2011 09:16 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 09:05 TheTurk wrote:
ZVT has never ever ever been balanced for Zerg.
Terran has always overpowered it since beta.
No hate, only statistics. I am going to disagree with you. The only thing I hate about terran is late game ghosts but other then that late game scenario I feel zerg vs terran is very balanced. Not once in the match up when I am watching 2 top tier players playing do I think "wow nothing zerg could have done to win this game he played perfect but lost". Not once have I thought that. When a zerg loses in zvt I almost always feel the terran player played better and the zerg made mistakes he shouldn't have. I main zerg and no I am not a terran player I just don't feel this match up is broken at all other then possibly ghosts
Does this change your mind about ghosts?
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Yep, TvP, favoured towards Protoss as expected.
Waiting for Blizzard to fix this situation we got here.
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On December 09 2011 09:04 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 23:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:On December 06 2011 23:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 23:15 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 23:12 Dalavita wrote:On December 06 2011 23:12 IMPrime wrote:
I'll just say this about toss...
- They suck earlygame
- They're OP lategame
As for what changes should happen, I know suggesting anything will instantly make people flame me, but I don't think anyone can disagree with the above 2 statements. Protoss doesn't suck earlygame. Neither is they OP lategame TT Agreed. It's never so black and white, and certainly not as exaggerated. I'm not gonna say they're OP. But I feel the general consensus among both terrans and protoss is that the protoss is much, much more comfortable in the late game when you have all tech paths and upgrades available, and the terran does their best to be aggressive immediately after ghost/medivacs start coming out. It's pretty obvious. Protoss keeps teching while terrans stop and just work on the same stuff. I'd love to be able to use higher tech units against protoss, too bad they all suck against protoss. IE Siege Tanks. Thors, Cruisers, hell banshees too. 3/3 Siege Line with Hellions? With Full Energy Ghosts for EMP? Let me a move into your Fortress wall and still have all my units left over alive
Replacing Vikings with Banshees might definitely be viable. They force out extra Stalkers late game and adds a ton of DPS to the ball without Colo/Chargelots hitting them. I predict Banshees will be the future of late game TvP.
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On December 09 2011 09:33 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 09:04 Blasterion wrote:On December 06 2011 23:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:On December 06 2011 23:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 23:15 eYeball wrote:On December 06 2011 23:12 Dalavita wrote:On December 06 2011 23:12 IMPrime wrote:
I'll just say this about toss...
- They suck earlygame
- They're OP lategame
As for what changes should happen, I know suggesting anything will instantly make people flame me, but I don't think anyone can disagree with the above 2 statements. Protoss doesn't suck earlygame. Neither is they OP lategame TT Agreed. It's never so black and white, and certainly not as exaggerated. I'm not gonna say they're OP. But I feel the general consensus among both terrans and protoss is that the protoss is much, much more comfortable in the late game when you have all tech paths and upgrades available, and the terran does their best to be aggressive immediately after ghost/medivacs start coming out. It's pretty obvious. Protoss keeps teching while terrans stop and just work on the same stuff. I'd love to be able to use higher tech units against protoss, too bad they all suck against protoss. IE Siege Tanks. Thors, Cruisers, hell banshees too. 3/3 Siege Line with Hellions? With Full Energy Ghosts for EMP? Let me a move into your Fortress wall and still have all my units left over alive Replacing Vikings with Banshees might definitely be viable. They force out extra Stalkers late game and adds a ton of DPS to the ball without Colo/Chargelots hitting them. I predict Banshees will be the future of late game TvP.
I really don't understand this whole "future of the MU" thing. If banshees were so good, why wouldn't people use them now? How are banshees suddenly going to become viable in the future? Its the same as mech in TvT. People 2 months ago were all saying "mech is the future of TvT", but now no one uses mech. Everyone has gone back to bio, the same strategy that people once said was going to become killed by mech. There is nothing to suggest that banshees will become the "future of tvp"
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On December 09 2011 09:27 Psychobabas wrote:
Yep, TvP, favoured towards Protoss as expected.
Waiting for Blizzard to fix this situation we got here.
And do what? Make protoss win rate almost below 40% again?
For the first time this year, Protoss has a lead and you are already crying. Plus, the difference isnt that big.
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On December 09 2011 09:04 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P - In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now. - It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility. I can go on for ages with this........ To you next point; Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut. I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing. Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on... if u cant win any games in the later stages maybe ur macro is to blame. and ppl talking about a huge swing in protoss favor for PvT means nerf is too much? LOL? it's only a huge swing cus TvP had a 67% win rate and now is losing slightly. same with ZvP, it used to have a rather noticeable Z favor and now its switched too. man some of these T posts are just too hilarious. ur now 46% vs P and ur complaining like crazy but u sure dont mind ur 58% vs Z. and dont even cite the "huge" win rate change because its not that far off from 50%. i guess always being ahead in every matchup has some ppl spoiled.
Yeah, I agree my macro isn't the best. But when I'm up by at least 30 supply, have an extra base, no less then 1 upgrade behind I expect better results. Fact is, the reason I lose is because of my micro in these games. It's definately not because of my macro, there are many games where I have been clearly ahead... yet roflstomped by Chargelot/Archon. I'll be honest here, I don't mind one bit that I have to micro my ass off... it's one of the reasons why I play this race. But I don't believe Protoss should practically be given a free pass in the late game.
Is there anyone that has problems with T v Z? I actually thought it was the most balanced MU. Watch the GSL finals where jjakji and leenock couldn't just directly engage each other, they were dancing around the map trying to find every little way of trying to get an advantage. I always thought that's what a balanced MU is meant to be. Maybe I'm mistaken Unlike T v P where there is a main engagement and 1 army comes out disgustingly ahead depending on whos OP for the month. lol.
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On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea.
What about Major and Select?
If your post refers to Blizzard cup, MMA is going to.
Now, name an outstanding Protoss. Hero? Maybe, but he wasnt able to qualify to code s. Maybe Oz, but Jjakji beat him.
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On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P
An outstanding foreign Terran? Demuslim and Thorzain are 2 that come to mind, Jinro is still hanging around as well.
But see, you're WAY late with that. I've been saying ever since HSC3 that foreign Terrans (as a whole) are not that good and need to step their game up. Keep in mind this is when Terran still had the edge over Protoss, so I don't get how your point gets to transfer to now when it was STILL happening back then.
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On December 09 2011 10:11 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P An outstanding foreign Terran? Demuslim and Thorzain are 2 that come to mind, Jinro is still hanging around as well. But see, you're WAY late with that. I've been saying ever since HSC3 that foreign Terrans (as a whole) are not that good and need to step their game up. Keep in mind this is when Terran still had the edge over Protoss, so I don't get how your point gets to transfer to now when it was STILL happening back then.
Demuslim hasn't won anything, and the only success that thorzain has had was in tsl. Jinro has been abscent for half a year now.
I agree with you, foriegn terrans arent as good as foriegn zergs or protosses.
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