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Yeah I think storms should be buffed with more instant damage instead.... and the build time for Collossi should be reduced. While we are at it, we should also nerf marines with 10% less hp. You're just going to have to micro harder Terrans!
Haha. Nice joke.
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I think blizzard went a little bit overboard with the Protoss buffs.
There have been two patches in a row where P has been buffed in PvT. I think they should have left a little gap between those changes to see how the matchup would be doing. Now it seems we have gone from terran with a 5% advantage to protoss with a 5% advantage...
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On December 09 2011 15:18 thepeonwhocould wrote:
I think blizzard went a little bit overboard with the Protoss buffs.
There have been two patches in a row where P has been buffed in PvT. I think they should have left a little gap between those changes to see how the matchup would be doing. Now it seems we have gone from terran with a 5% advantage to protoss with a 5% advantage...
Sorry dude, but just thought I'd point out that it's more around a 10% advantage.
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On December 09 2011 14:23 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:50 lizzard_warish wrote:On December 09 2011 10:53 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 10:51 Nymbul wrote:On December 09 2011 09:27 Psychobabas wrote:
Yep, TvP, favoured towards Protoss as expected.
Waiting for Blizzard to fix this situation we got here. Well judging by the graph. Starting from the last time protoss was favoured in the match up = Terran fairly heavily favoured in the match up for 2 months, slightly favoured for 1 and then fairly heavily favoured for another month before Protoss actually eclipsed terran. So you're looking at April before you're favoured again. Yeah, us Terrans owe it to Toss for them to be OP. You know since we make ourselves OP and all. Nevermind about balance for now  SC2 can be such a childish community. For literally a single month after the resulting balance changes, terran is unfavoured by like 5-6%. Not only is that essentially within the margin of error, anyone with a brain knows to ignore the stats after a major balance or metagame shift for at least a month, possibly two. It takes time for things to settle. Zerg win rates in BW were hovering around 40% and below after the mech revolution in 2008. No one cried imba, people just worked at it and things worked itself out. If you havent realized major balance changes are slowing down DRAMATICALLY, and given the recent problems with protoss and the changes to fix that, there probably wont be anymore ever. Not until the expansion, and even then there will probably only be like two changes. Blizzard cant baby the community forever, its retarded. I dont know why you quoted that guy cause your post is completely irrelevant to his. Can you not read? Pretty self evident why I quoted him.
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On December 09 2011 11:27 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 10:54 Nymbul wrote:On December 09 2011 10:53 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 10:51 Nymbul wrote:On December 09 2011 09:27 Psychobabas wrote:
Yep, TvP, favoured towards Protoss as expected.
Waiting for Blizzard to fix this situation we got here. Well judging by the graph. Starting from the last time protoss was favoured in the match up = Terran fairly heavily favoured in the match up for 2 months, slightly favoured for 1 and then fairly heavily favoured for another month before Protoss actually eclipsed terran. So you're looking at April before you're favoured again. Yeah, us Terrans owe it to Toss for them to be OP. You know since we make ourselves OP and all. Nevermind about balance for now It's gonna be a long while until the game is truely balanced, so for now the best we can hope for is equal time intervals of slight imbalance for each race. This isn't a personal cry out from me. It's just gonna be like this until Legacy of the Void. It could be worse. You could be at less than 45% in both your non-mirrors at the same time. Something that zerg and protoss have had to put up with Its going to be that way regardless of patches and expansions dude. Fluctuations happen, I don´t know why you even call them intervals of imbalance. Strategy evolves, look at Broodwar TvZ, is fluctuated like crazy but it was all strategy. Not ¨imbalances¨ . Hell IIRC ZvT even reached like 30% in BW, Zergs then had to revise their strategies. I don´t know why people expect exactly 50% in all MUs all the time, thats just impossible. I don´t get why people can´t see beyond IMBA and start seeing... you know, strategy in the strategy games T_T
Because people need to bitch and whine for losing instead of owning up to their losses. When protoss was getting owned in pvz and pvt, not ONCE did I bitch about my race. I wish blizzard stopped adding patches as I think the game is balanced (said this b4 the toss buff). Strategies will constantly evolve and balancing the current/popular strategies is stupid. People need to stop whining... seriously terrans are starting to sound like zergs back in the day when zerg was ACTUALLY underpowered.
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terran is finally the lowerest!!
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It is so hard to say anything with balance. Even this is bad evidence, since the game and the strategy is developing all the time. When a new strat comes out this will obviously change the win ration untill a solution is found. And since there are a lot of builds out there, I think we need a lot more condensation of build to say anything about balance. Terran win ratio could be due to more strats coming out from the terrans side and z and P having to deal extensively with this. This could give T a higher win ratio even though the race is not better. Just a hypothetical that goes to show that talk about balance is extremely hard to back up.
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On December 09 2011 16:25 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 11:27 windsupernova wrote:On December 09 2011 10:54 Nymbul wrote:On December 09 2011 10:53 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 10:51 Nymbul wrote:On December 09 2011 09:27 Psychobabas wrote:
Yep, TvP, favoured towards Protoss as expected.
Waiting for Blizzard to fix this situation we got here. Well judging by the graph. Starting from the last time protoss was favoured in the match up = Terran fairly heavily favoured in the match up for 2 months, slightly favoured for 1 and then fairly heavily favoured for another month before Protoss actually eclipsed terran. So you're looking at April before you're favoured again. Yeah, us Terrans owe it to Toss for them to be OP. You know since we make ourselves OP and all. Nevermind about balance for now It's gonna be a long while until the game is truely balanced, so for now the best we can hope for is equal time intervals of slight imbalance for each race. This isn't a personal cry out from me. It's just gonna be like this until Legacy of the Void. It could be worse. You could be at less than 45% in both your non-mirrors at the same time. Something that zerg and protoss have had to put up with Its going to be that way regardless of patches and expansions dude. Fluctuations happen, I don´t know why you even call them intervals of imbalance. Strategy evolves, look at Broodwar TvZ, is fluctuated like crazy but it was all strategy. Not ¨imbalances¨ . Hell IIRC ZvT even reached like 30% in BW, Zergs then had to revise their strategies. I don´t know why people expect exactly 50% in all MUs all the time, thats just impossible. I don´t get why people can´t see beyond IMBA and start seeing... you know, strategy in the strategy games T_T Because people need to bitch and whine for losing instead of owning up to their losses. When protoss was getting owned in pvz and pvt, not ONCE did I bitch about my race. I wish blizzard stopped adding patches as I think the game is balanced (said this b4 the toss buff). Strategies will constantly evolve and balancing the current/popular strategies is stupid. People need to stop whining... seriously terrans are starting to sound like zergs back in the day when zerg was ACTUALLY underpowered.
I don't understand how people can so casually say that the game is balanced. IIRC Checkers was only fairly recently solved and proven to result in a draw given perfect play from both sides (this took a fucking massive game tree given that there are roughly 5*10^20 legal positions). Given that Starcraft 2 is a far more complex game than Checkers, how can anyone even state that the game is "balanced" with any degree of confidence? I don't know if the game is balanced or not, but there is an overwhelmingly high chance that it is indeed not balanced - though in what aspects, I do not know. Maybe others' definition of "balance" differs from mine, but, personally, I fail to see how any of the empirical evidence out there comes anywhere near close to sufficiently proving that the game is balanced.
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Imo sc2 can never actually be balanced because it has been changed too much from what it was originally intended to be. Now they're stuck quite literally nerfing or buffing the metagame as they go along which is just stupid imo. I'm not saying the game is massively broken but I am saying they will never be finished patching it (at least until HoTS comes out and they shift their attention to that).
A quick example. If you look at what terrans are complaining about in the t v p match up it is directly related to all the changes Blizzard has made in the past couple of patches. It isn't because protoss players figured out some super creative mixture of units or timing or micro trick, it's literally because Blizzard buffed chargelots, archons and upgrades.
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On December 09 2011 19:19 Neurosis wrote:
Imo sc2 can never actually be balanced because it has been changed too much from what it was originally intended to be. Now they're stuck quite literally nerfing or buffing the metagame as they go along which is just stupid imo. I'm not saying the game is massively broken but I am saying they will never be finished patching it (at least until HoTS comes out and they shift their attention to that).
A quick example. If you look at what terrans are complaining about in the t v p match up it is directly related to all the changes Blizzard has made in the past couple of patches. It isn't because protoss players figured out some super creative mixture of units or timing or micro trick, it's literally because Blizzard buffed chargelots, archons and upgrades.
Archons have been buffed, but chargelots and upgrades haven't been changed in any big way with the small ish exception of the zealot charge hit, so TvP stupidness lategame has been there for a long while. Basically, terrans had the same complaints about protoss when they had a 40% win rate, but at that point it was responded with "terran op" or something similar to that, and now it's "the game's balanced at top levels, get better!".
People who think terran players are whining are doing it because we're under 50%, don't be silly. The TLPD stats as always are too inconclusive to mean anything. We're whining for the same reason we did for months now. Chargelots are dumb and cost way to much time and effort to deal with for the equivalent of two seconds of attention of the protoss. Think of it as baneling splitting micro, only you have to do it for a minute non stop rather than for five seconds before you can move back to your ordinary game plan. Even foreign top terrans struggle doing it.
Edit: If anything it was the EMP nerf that aggravated the already existing prroblem .Before, especially when the protoss players were to lazy to split their templars, you could blanket EMP their entire army and the templars and stand a good chance. Now you need a lot more ghosts who get ripped to shreds once the engagement begins, and the protoss actually splits their templars up. In a p v t battle, if you land your EMPs but don't hit one or two templars way in the back and he lands one or two storms, you are dead. The storm itself doesn't kill you, but it more than negates medivacs and lets the gateway+colossi melt that chunk of army so fast that there's a snowball effect of the rest of your army lacking the dps to kill anything else.
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On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P - In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now. - It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility. I can go on for ages with this........ To you next point; Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut. I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing. Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on...
Yeah and now I could ask you to name outstanding Protoss players in the GSL last season: Oz... that's it.
I could ask you to look at the general consensus in any SC2 forum from the other races about terran:
ZvT: "Zerg has to outplay Terran 20mins to get 1one broodlord push. If it fails mass ghost is gonna win against any zerg composition"
PvT: "Protoss can't do anything all game long until it has a 200supply deathball, which can't be split and the moment you move out 4marauders kill your whole base in 5sec"
You're not imagining that Terrans are whining all over the place, just as much as Protoss and Zergs are whining.
(btw I wish any Terran forum poster would stick to all the "zerg players are whiners, terrans would never do that"-stuff they said over time. But apparently, Terrans are just as whiny as any other race. Maybe even more. They are whining about not having completly broken stats anymore, while Protoss and Zergs at least had statistics on their side for whining at some times)
I could tell you that if you had 80% winrate against Protoss, you were either way better than your protoss opponents OR the game was pretty broken before.
If you only consider hardcore macro wins to be "true wins", I urge you to go and cut corners hardcore (15CC,15CC, 15CC, 15CC as a BO...). You really shouldn't lose any game anymore.
As I hadn't checked Pro-APM for a long time I was courious about the "Terran Pros have higher in battle APM in PvT" and opened a random Puma vs Hero game (from IPL). Your statement is simply true. Heros APM were better overall and his in battle peaks were 300-400 against 250-300 from Puma, but with Puma having a little more solid in battle APM (always above 200, while Hero's APM were sometimes wildly going to up to 350+ and then dropping again under 100 for a second).
My arguement about Warp In was focusing on the part were you declared everything bullshit that wasn't army movement across the map. Nydus worm is an example for that.
Anyways, this whole discussion is pathetic.
Terran is nearly as much represented than any other race in any ladder league. Terran is overrepresented in the GSL and other Korean Tournaments (= the highest level of play) and well represented in most tournaments worldwide(like any race has it's better and worse tournaments)
The winrate stats of Korea (=highest level) are still over 50% and the matchup that is said to be the "best balanced" (TvZ) is and has nearly always been hugely in favor of Terran.
It's only TvP that has gone from completly broken in favor of Terran to Protossfavored FOR ONLY ONE MONTH.
There is absolutly no data that would suggest that Terran has any major flaw at any level of play...
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On December 09 2011 22:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P - In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now. - It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility. I can go on for ages with this........ To you next point; Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut. I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing. Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on... Yeah and now I could ask you to name outstanding Protoss players in the GSL last season: Oz... that's it. I could ask you to look at the general consensus in any SC2 forum from the other races about terran: ZvT: "Zerg has to outplay Terran 20mins to get 1one broodlord push. If it fails mass ghost is gonna win against any zerg composition" PvT: "Protoss can't do anything all game long until it has a 200supply deathball, which can't be split and the moment you move out 4marauders kill your whole base in 5sec" You're not imagining that Terrans are whining all over the place, just as much as Protoss and Zergs are whining. (btw I wish any Terran forum poster would stick to all the "zerg players are whiners, terrans would never do that"-stuff they said over time. But apparently, Terrans are just as whiny as any other race. Maybe even more. They are whining about not having completly broken stats anymore, while Protoss and Zergs at least had statistics on their side for whining at some times) I could tell you that if you had 80% winrate against Protoss, you were either way better than your protoss opponents OR the game was pretty broken before. If you only consider hardcore macro wins to be "true wins", I urge you to go and cut corners hardcore (15CC,15CC, 15CC, 15CC as a BO...). You really shouldn't lose any game anymore. As I hadn't checked Pro-APM for a long time I was courious about the "Terran Pros have higher in battle APM in PvT" and opened a random Puma vs Hero game (from IPL). Your statement is simply true. Heros APM were better overall and his in battle peaks were 300-400 against 250-300 from Puma, but with Puma having a little more solid in battle APM (always above 200, while Hero's APM were sometimes wildly going to up to 350+ and then dropping again under 100 for a second). My arguement about Warp In was focusing on the part were you declared everything bullshit that wasn't army movement across the map. Nydus worm is an example for that. Anyways, this whole discussion is pathetic. Terran is nearly as much represented than any other race in any ladder league. Terran is overrepresented in the GSL and other Korean Tournaments (= the highest level of play) and well represented in most tournaments worldwide(like any race has it's better and worse tournaments)The winrate stats of Korea (=highest level) are still over 50% and the matchup that is said to be the "best balanced" (TvZ) is and has nearly always been hugely in favor of Terran. It's only TvP that has gone from completly broken in favor of Terran to Protossfavored FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. There is absolutly no data that would suggest that Terran has any major flaw at any level of play...
Wrong, terran is the least played race in gold, platinum, diamond, master, grandmaster on every server outside of korea. In korea protoss is the most represented in Grandmaster
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
Pointing towards terran being the hardest race to play, just going off how blizzards ranking system works.
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On December 09 2011 22:29 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 22:24 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P - In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now. - It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility. I can go on for ages with this........ To you next point; Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut. I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing. Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on... Yeah and now I could ask you to name outstanding Protoss players in the GSL last season: Oz... that's it. I could ask you to look at the general consensus in any SC2 forum from the other races about terran: ZvT: "Zerg has to outplay Terran 20mins to get 1one broodlord push. If it fails mass ghost is gonna win against any zerg composition" PvT: "Protoss can't do anything all game long until it has a 200supply deathball, which can't be split and the moment you move out 4marauders kill your whole base in 5sec" You're not imagining that Terrans are whining all over the place, just as much as Protoss and Zergs are whining. (btw I wish any Terran forum poster would stick to all the "zerg players are whiners, terrans would never do that"-stuff they said over time. But apparently, Terrans are just as whiny as any other race. Maybe even more. They are whining about not having completly broken stats anymore, while Protoss and Zergs at least had statistics on their side for whining at some times) I could tell you that if you had 80% winrate against Protoss, you were either way better than your protoss opponents OR the game was pretty broken before. If you only consider hardcore macro wins to be "true wins", I urge you to go and cut corners hardcore (15CC,15CC, 15CC, 15CC as a BO...). You really shouldn't lose any game anymore. As I hadn't checked Pro-APM for a long time I was courious about the "Terran Pros have higher in battle APM in PvT" and opened a random Puma vs Hero game (from IPL). Your statement is simply true. Heros APM were better overall and his in battle peaks were 300-400 against 250-300 from Puma, but with Puma having a little more solid in battle APM (always above 200, while Hero's APM were sometimes wildly going to up to 350+ and then dropping again under 100 for a second). My arguement about Warp In was focusing on the part were you declared everything bullshit that wasn't army movement across the map. Nydus worm is an example for that. Anyways, this whole discussion is pathetic. Terran is nearly as much represented than any other race in any ladder league. Terran is overrepresented in the GSL and other Korean Tournaments (= the highest level of play) and well represented in most tournaments worldwide(like any race has it's better and worse tournaments)The winrate stats of Korea (=highest level) are still over 50% and the matchup that is said to be the "best balanced" (TvZ) is and has nearly always been hugely in favor of Terran. It's only TvP that has gone from completly broken in favor of Terran to Protossfavored FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. There is absolutly no data that would suggest that Terran has any major flaw at any level of play... Wrong, terran is the least played race in gold, platinum, diamond, master, grandmaster on every server outside of korea. In korea protoss is the most represented in Grandmaster http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allPointing towards terran being the hardest race to play, just going off how blizzards ranking system works.
So? Did I say it was different? I posted the exact same stats in a post ~5 pages ago to point out how terran is only slightly less played than the other 2races.
Yeah in platinum and diamond the difference with 6percent is rather big. Everything else is in regions around 2-3percent of the 2nd least played race and ~5% to the most played race.
It is something, but not a lot.
Furthermore, following your argument, the silver and bronze stats suggest that Terran is the easiest race to play on the lowest level.
Furthermore, the fact that the Terran percentages are increasing after diamond level point towards Terran being easier on high ladder level than on mid ladder level. Using the fact that there are less players to "recruit" from in diamond and platinum, the percentages in master+ are even too high --> Terran seems to be easier to play at that level.
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On December 09 2011 22:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P - In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now. - It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility. I can go on for ages with this........ To you next point; Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut. I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing. Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on... Yeah and now I could ask you to name outstanding Protoss players in the GSL last season: Oz... that's it. I could ask you to look at the general consensus in any SC2 forum from the other races about terran: ZvT: "Zerg has to outplay Terran 20mins to get 1one broodlord push. If it fails mass ghost is gonna win against any zerg composition" PvT: "Protoss can't do anything all game long until it has a 200supply deathball, which can't be split and the moment you move out 4marauders kill your whole base in 5sec" You're not imagining that Terrans are whining all over the place, just as much as Protoss and Zergs are whining. (btw I wish any Terran forum poster would stick to all the "zerg players are whiners, terrans would never do that"-stuff they said over time. But apparently, Terrans are just as whiny as any other race. Maybe even more. They are whining about not having completly broken stats anymore, while Protoss and Zergs at least had statistics on their side for whining at some times) I could tell you that if you had 80% winrate against Protoss, you were either way better than your protoss opponents OR the game was pretty broken before. If you only consider hardcore macro wins to be "true wins", I urge you to go and cut corners hardcore (15CC,15CC, 15CC, 15CC as a BO...). You really shouldn't lose any game anymore. As I hadn't checked Pro-APM for a long time I was courious about the "Terran Pros have higher in battle APM in PvT" and opened a random Puma vs Hero game (from IPL). Your statement is simply true. Heros APM were better overall and his in battle peaks were 300-400 against 250-300 from Puma, but with Puma having a little more solid in battle APM (always above 200, while Hero's APM were sometimes wildly going to up to 350+ and then dropping again under 100 for a second). My arguement about Warp In was focusing on the part were you declared everything bullshit that wasn't army movement across the map. Nydus worm is an example for that. Anyways, this whole discussion is pathetic. Terran is nearly as much represented than any other race in any ladder league. Terran is overrepresented in the GSL and other Korean Tournaments (= the highest level of play) and well represented in most tournaments worldwide(like any race has it's better and worse tournaments) The winrate stats of Korea (=highest level) are still over 50% and the matchup that is said to be the "best balanced" (TvZ) is and has nearly always been hugely in favor of Terran. It's only TvP that has gone from completly broken in favor of Terran to Protossfavored FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. There is absolutly no data that would suggest that Terran has any major flaw at any level of play...
I'm sorry dude, but for the first couple of paragraphs all I read was blah blah GSL blah blah.... Did you forget that I was merely talking about the skill gap of Terran and Toss at lower to professional levels?
Secondly, funny thing is I was never much of a ghost user before the emp nerf.... and yes, I won long macro games without it. After the emp nerf, I learned really fast to start using it due to double forge builds..... and that doesn't even help me. But my personal QQ here and my own flaws are not the point. The point I'm trying to get across here is, I don't believe it's right that a Chargelot/Archon composition should only require a 1 a whereas the Terran has to work so much harder during the engagement.
I'm going to say this again..... Nydus Worm? Really? Your still trying to hang on to this? I'm still not even going to bother with this, it's quiet pathetic.
Your right, this whole discussion is pathetic. There is no point trying to talk to people that can't see things from your side of the story and are only interested in finding any pathetic way to rebut you. It really is a waste of time.
If you have taken any notice to what I have been saying all along, my main argument has been about the Chargelot/Archon composition. I'm sure I speak for many Terrans here when I say that there is nothing worse then trading armies with that composition and then suffer a whole new wave of Chargelot warp-in straight after. Especially knowing during that whole time you were frantically smashing the shit out of your keyboard whilst the Protoss is having a cup of coffee back at his base macro'ing up.
But yeah, lets see how things pan out over the next few months. I'm dying to know what that new age T v P composition is! I'm sorry mods, I'm sure there is one of you who wants to give me a warning or whatever, but this is my last post in this thread. I don't like talking to brick walls.
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On December 09 2011 23:11 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 22:24 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P - In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now. - It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility. I can go on for ages with this........ To you next point; Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut. I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing. Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on... Yeah and now I could ask you to name outstanding Protoss players in the GSL last season: Oz... that's it. I could ask you to look at the general consensus in any SC2 forum from the other races about terran: ZvT: "Zerg has to outplay Terran 20mins to get 1one broodlord push. If it fails mass ghost is gonna win against any zerg composition" PvT: "Protoss can't do anything all game long until it has a 200supply deathball, which can't be split and the moment you move out 4marauders kill your whole base in 5sec" You're not imagining that Terrans are whining all over the place, just as much as Protoss and Zergs are whining. (btw I wish any Terran forum poster would stick to all the "zerg players are whiners, terrans would never do that"-stuff they said over time. But apparently, Terrans are just as whiny as any other race. Maybe even more. They are whining about not having completly broken stats anymore, while Protoss and Zergs at least had statistics on their side for whining at some times) I could tell you that if you had 80% winrate against Protoss, you were either way better than your protoss opponents OR the game was pretty broken before. If you only consider hardcore macro wins to be "true wins", I urge you to go and cut corners hardcore (15CC,15CC, 15CC, 15CC as a BO...). You really shouldn't lose any game anymore. As I hadn't checked Pro-APM for a long time I was courious about the "Terran Pros have higher in battle APM in PvT" and opened a random Puma vs Hero game (from IPL). Your statement is simply true. Heros APM were better overall and his in battle peaks were 300-400 against 250-300 from Puma, but with Puma having a little more solid in battle APM (always above 200, while Hero's APM were sometimes wildly going to up to 350+ and then dropping again under 100 for a second). My arguement about Warp In was focusing on the part were you declared everything bullshit that wasn't army movement across the map. Nydus worm is an example for that. Anyways, this whole discussion is pathetic. Terran is nearly as much represented than any other race in any ladder league. Terran is overrepresented in the GSL and other Korean Tournaments (= the highest level of play) and well represented in most tournaments worldwide(like any race has it's better and worse tournaments) The winrate stats of Korea (=highest level) are still over 50% and the matchup that is said to be the "best balanced" (TvZ) is and has nearly always been hugely in favor of Terran. It's only TvP that has gone from completly broken in favor of Terran to Protossfavored FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. There is absolutly no data that would suggest that Terran has any major flaw at any level of play... I'm sorry dude, but for the first couple of paragraphs all I read was blah blah GSL blah blah.... Did you forget that I was merely talking about the skill gap of Terran and Toss at lower to professional levels? Secondly, funny thing is I was never much of a ghost user before the emp nerf.... and yes, I won long macro games without it. After the emp nerf, I learned really fast to start using it due to double forge builds..... and that doesn't even help me. But my personal QQ here and my own flaws are not the point. The point I'm trying to get across here is, I don't believe it's right that a Chargelot/Archon composition should only require a 1 a whereas the Terran has to work so much harder during the engagement. I'm going to say this again..... Nydus Worm? Really? Your still trying to hang on to this? I'm still not even going to bother with this, it's quiet pathetic. Your right, this whole discussion is pathetic. There is no point trying to talk to people that can't see things from your side of the story and are only interested in finding any pathetic way to rebut you. It really is a waste of time. If you have taken any notice to what I have been saying all along, my main argument has been about the Chargelot/Archon composition. I'm sure I speak for many Terrans here when I say that there is nothing worse then trading armies with that composition and then suffer a whole new wave of Chargelot warp-in straight after. Especially knowing during that whole time you were frantically smashing the shit out of your keyboard whilst the Protoss is having a cup of coffee back at his base macro'ing up. But yeah, lets see how things pan out over the next few months. I'm dying to know what that new age T v P composition is! I'm sorry mods, I'm sure there is one of you who wants to give me a warning or whatever, but this is my last post in this thread. I don't like talking to brick walls.
I'm gonna tell you the same thing I'm telling everyone, as I know you will read it, even if you don't respond to it:
Go and fucking play another race or game if you're unhappy with playing a race in a game that is very well balanced at all levels of play. (STATISTICS = PROOF FOR THIS STATEMENT)
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On December 09 2011 23:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 23:11 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 22:24 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P - In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now. - It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility. I can go on for ages with this........ To you next point; Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut. I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing. Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on... Yeah and now I could ask you to name outstanding Protoss players in the GSL last season: Oz... that's it. I could ask you to look at the general consensus in any SC2 forum from the other races about terran: ZvT: "Zerg has to outplay Terran 20mins to get 1one broodlord push. If it fails mass ghost is gonna win against any zerg composition" PvT: "Protoss can't do anything all game long until it has a 200supply deathball, which can't be split and the moment you move out 4marauders kill your whole base in 5sec" You're not imagining that Terrans are whining all over the place, just as much as Protoss and Zergs are whining. (btw I wish any Terran forum poster would stick to all the "zerg players are whiners, terrans would never do that"-stuff they said over time. But apparently, Terrans are just as whiny as any other race. Maybe even more. They are whining about not having completly broken stats anymore, while Protoss and Zergs at least had statistics on their side for whining at some times) I could tell you that if you had 80% winrate against Protoss, you were either way better than your protoss opponents OR the game was pretty broken before. If you only consider hardcore macro wins to be "true wins", I urge you to go and cut corners hardcore (15CC,15CC, 15CC, 15CC as a BO...). You really shouldn't lose any game anymore. As I hadn't checked Pro-APM for a long time I was courious about the "Terran Pros have higher in battle APM in PvT" and opened a random Puma vs Hero game (from IPL). Your statement is simply true. Heros APM were better overall and his in battle peaks were 300-400 against 250-300 from Puma, but with Puma having a little more solid in battle APM (always above 200, while Hero's APM were sometimes wildly going to up to 350+ and then dropping again under 100 for a second). My arguement about Warp In was focusing on the part were you declared everything bullshit that wasn't army movement across the map. Nydus worm is an example for that. Anyways, this whole discussion is pathetic. Terran is nearly as much represented than any other race in any ladder league. Terran is overrepresented in the GSL and other Korean Tournaments (= the highest level of play) and well represented in most tournaments worldwide(like any race has it's better and worse tournaments) The winrate stats of Korea (=highest level) are still over 50% and the matchup that is said to be the "best balanced" (TvZ) is and has nearly always been hugely in favor of Terran. It's only TvP that has gone from completly broken in favor of Terran to Protossfavored FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. There is absolutly no data that would suggest that Terran has any major flaw at any level of play... I'm sorry dude, but for the first couple of paragraphs all I read was blah blah GSL blah blah.... Did you forget that I was merely talking about the skill gap of Terran and Toss at lower to professional levels? Secondly, funny thing is I was never much of a ghost user before the emp nerf.... and yes, I won long macro games without it. After the emp nerf, I learned really fast to start using it due to double forge builds..... and that doesn't even help me. But my personal QQ here and my own flaws are not the point. The point I'm trying to get across here is, I don't believe it's right that a Chargelot/Archon composition should only require a 1 a whereas the Terran has to work so much harder during the engagement. I'm going to say this again..... Nydus Worm? Really? Your still trying to hang on to this? I'm still not even going to bother with this, it's quiet pathetic. Your right, this whole discussion is pathetic. There is no point trying to talk to people that can't see things from your side of the story and are only interested in finding any pathetic way to rebut you. It really is a waste of time. If you have taken any notice to what I have been saying all along, my main argument has been about the Chargelot/Archon composition. I'm sure I speak for many Terrans here when I say that there is nothing worse then trading armies with that composition and then suffer a whole new wave of Chargelot warp-in straight after. Especially knowing during that whole time you were frantically smashing the shit out of your keyboard whilst the Protoss is having a cup of coffee back at his base macro'ing up. But yeah, lets see how things pan out over the next few months. I'm dying to know what that new age T v P composition is! I'm sorry mods, I'm sure there is one of you who wants to give me a warning or whatever, but this is my last post in this thread. I don't like talking to brick walls. I'm gonna tell you the same thing I'm telling everyone, as I know you will read it, even if you don't respond to it: Go and fucking play another race or game if you're unhappy with playing a race in a game that is very well balanced at all levels of play. (STATISTICS = PROOF FOR THIS STATEMENT)
Really...statistics ?? Another reason why protoss QQ doesn't make sense. You go by stats in the GSL. So silly....if any race has sucked it is zerg. Terran is balanced, Zerg needs help with Tier 3, and Protoss needs to quit all inning everygame and play more like HerO and Naniwa.
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On December 09 2011 23:11 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 22:24 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 08:45 ZorBa.G wrote:On December 09 2011 08:19 Big J wrote:On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
The biggest problem here is;
The skill gap between Wood league and Professional level for Protoss is MUCH smaller then the skill gap for Terran.
What grinds my gears is that Terran is continued with this burden to micro more and more as they keep getting nerfed on Protoss accord.
I think it's obvious what the solution is;
Fix this shit design of a race (Protoss) Blizzard and stop nerfing Terran. The only thing you guys are doing is increasing the skill gap for Terrans whilst minimizing it for Toss. why is the skill gap for Terrans that big in your opinion? I myself as a mid-high master zerg player have no problem with playing Terran around mid-high diamond level without any micro/multitasking training for them... On the other hand I have huge troubles with forcefielding, my stalker kiting usually always leads to a lot of hull damage and I keep on missing warp ins. So from my personal experiences, I would say that Protoss is way harder to play overall than Terran for me, at least if I'm not doing a plain colossus or gateway allin. (note this is ONLY personal experience and note that maybe "zerg skills" simply transfer better to "terran skills" than to "protoss skills") On December 09 2011 07:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
I'm not getting paid to balance the game out, you are Blizzard. Stop trying to find the easy way out trying to nerf Terran, I think it's time to realize that you really screwed up the Toss race in the first place and it's becoming evident you need to fix it.
EDIT: And who is the Einstein that came up with the idea of warp mechanics? Seriously, doesn't it occur to you that one of the fine aspects of RTS games is the timing of moving your army from your base on foot to your opponents base. It's like you designed this race, then went SHIT we have a big problem here (no one new about before it was released) and said oh well "lets just let these guys teleport in front of the Terran/Zergs base." Smart idea indeed! Apparently Starcraft 2 is an RTS and apparently there is warp in in it and apparently it is one of the best games out there, for forum posters like you and me probably the best (else we would play and write about something else). In other great RTS games you will find similar abilities to warp in ("ambush" from C&C generals f.e.), or simply machanics that curcumvent army movement at all (nukes looooooooooooooooooong rang artillery) and even in Starcraft:BW and Starcraft 2 there is another such mechanism that works against such timings: Nydus Network. So I guess no, those walk out timings are not "one of the fine apects of RTS", but "one of the fine aspects of Race X in game Y". PS: Even with all of Warp Ins problems, I love the idea behind it... It just makes Protoss feel different from Terran gameplaywise. (each race no has unique production: larva, "normal RTS rally", warp in) Why is the skill gap that big in my opinion? - IIRC we have 1 Terran going to Blizzcon so far... MVP. - Name me some outstanding foreign Terrans atm? The only ones doing well are the top Terrans in GSL jjakji, MVP, fin (ForGG) looks promising. In Korea. - Look at the general consensus on SC2 forums, I must be imagining things when I see so many Terrans complaining about late game T v P - In my own experiences where my go to build was a 1 rax fe where I "had" an 80% win rate against Toss until recently with the Protoss who now headbutts their keyboard into the 1 A Chargelot/Archon compositon.... I still have not won 1 single game against Toss yet (in the late game). So I consider myself at 0% win rate. Yes I do win still, however it is only when I go for the all-in builds now. - It's not just me saying this, browse over the forums more and you will also find pro gamers saying the same thing if at any time you might think what I say lacks credibility. I can go on for ages with this........ To you next point; Stalker kiting? Force fielding? really?...... You need to come play Terran..... I'm not going to elaborate on this much further because I think we both know here that what you said is utter bullshit in a fail attempt to rebut. I urge you to download ANY professional replay of your choice where the Terran engages a Protoss army, check out the apm whilst engaging. You can't tell me there is much difference from a Pro toss player 1 A'ing a chargelot/archon army then a wood leaguer doing the same thing. Your argument for the whole warp mechanics is pathetic.... it really seems like your trying to grab onto anything here to try and rebut me. Trying to compare nydus network to warp in? Really dude? Come on... Yeah and now I could ask you to name outstanding Protoss players in the GSL last season: Oz... that's it. I could ask you to look at the general consensus in any SC2 forum from the other races about terran: ZvT: "Zerg has to outplay Terran 20mins to get 1one broodlord push. If it fails mass ghost is gonna win against any zerg composition" PvT: "Protoss can't do anything all game long until it has a 200supply deathball, which can't be split and the moment you move out 4marauders kill your whole base in 5sec" You're not imagining that Terrans are whining all over the place, just as much as Protoss and Zergs are whining. (btw I wish any Terran forum poster would stick to all the "zerg players are whiners, terrans would never do that"-stuff they said over time. But apparently, Terrans are just as whiny as any other race. Maybe even more. They are whining about not having completly broken stats anymore, while Protoss and Zergs at least had statistics on their side for whining at some times) I could tell you that if you had 80% winrate against Protoss, you were either way better than your protoss opponents OR the game was pretty broken before. If you only consider hardcore macro wins to be "true wins", I urge you to go and cut corners hardcore (15CC,15CC, 15CC, 15CC as a BO...). You really shouldn't lose any game anymore. As I hadn't checked Pro-APM for a long time I was courious about the "Terran Pros have higher in battle APM in PvT" and opened a random Puma vs Hero game (from IPL). Your statement is simply true. Heros APM were better overall and his in battle peaks were 300-400 against 250-300 from Puma, but with Puma having a little more solid in battle APM (always above 200, while Hero's APM were sometimes wildly going to up to 350+ and then dropping again under 100 for a second). My arguement about Warp In was focusing on the part were you declared everything bullshit that wasn't army movement across the map. Nydus worm is an example for that. Anyways, this whole discussion is pathetic. Terran is nearly as much represented than any other race in any ladder league. Terran is overrepresented in the GSL and other Korean Tournaments (= the highest level of play) and well represented in most tournaments worldwide(like any race has it's better and worse tournaments) The winrate stats of Korea (=highest level) are still over 50% and the matchup that is said to be the "best balanced" (TvZ) is and has nearly always been hugely in favor of Terran. It's only TvP that has gone from completly broken in favor of Terran to Protossfavored FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. There is absolutly no data that would suggest that Terran has any major flaw at any level of play... I'm sorry dude, but for the first couple of paragraphs all I read was blah blah GSL blah blah.... Did you forget that I was merely talking about the skill gap of Terran and Toss at lower to professional levels? Secondly, funny thing is I was never much of a ghost user before the emp nerf.... and yes, I won long macro games without it. After the emp nerf, I learned really fast to start using it due to double forge builds..... and that doesn't even help me. But my personal QQ here and my own flaws are not the point. The point I'm trying to get across here is, I don't believe it's right that a Chargelot/Archon composition should only require a 1 a whereas the Terran has to work so much harder during the engagement. I'm going to say this again..... Nydus Worm? Really? Your still trying to hang on to this? I'm still not even going to bother with this, it's quiet pathetic. Your right, this whole discussion is pathetic. There is no point trying to talk to people that can't see things from your side of the story and are only interested in finding any pathetic way to rebut you. It really is a waste of time. If you have taken any notice to what I have been saying all along, my main argument has been about the Chargelot/Archon composition. I'm sure I speak for many Terrans here when I say that there is nothing worse then trading armies with that composition and then suffer a whole new wave of Chargelot warp-in straight after. Especially knowing during that whole time you were frantically smashing the shit out of your keyboard whilst the Protoss is having a cup of coffee back at his base macro'ing up. But yeah, lets see how things pan out over the next few months. I'm dying to know what that new age T v P composition is! I'm sorry mods, I'm sure there is one of you who wants to give me a warning or whatever, but this is my last post in this thread. I don't like talking to brick walls.
You'd think he'd be ENRAGED at how little micro most zerg units require. But the double forge is the flavor of the month and is actually flipping the meta game on it's head so now Terran as a race is fucked because it's harder to micro. Zerg apparently isn't doing as hot so no one gives a shit. Neither makes the slightest difference at the highest levels.
I'll tell you what's bullshit. How much more difficult it is to defend drops/multi-pronged attacks than it is to shift queue a medivac or two; stim when they arrive.
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Terran were dominating Toss for almost a year before Nov. All this time, Terran were just saying in EVERY SINGLE balance thread, that Toss should just Learn 2 play, and that Terran were more skilled and that was why.
Now that Toss had the high end of the stick... for only a MONTH... they are crying to the nerf.
Hypocrites?
I'm not even playing Toss, but for god fucking sake, can we wait another month or two before crying at the imbalance? There was not even that many games played during that month. And it's the most balanced month yet. 49,1% win rate for terran, how can they cry when they were in the complete denial when they were at 58%? I don't even get it.
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Terran has always been OP.
Always
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On December 10 2011 00:25 Xalorian wrote:
Terran were dominating Toss for almost a year before Nov. All this time, Terran were just saying in EVERY SINGLE balance thread, that Toss should just Learn 2 play, and that Terran were more skilled and that was why.
Now that Toss had the high end of the stick... for only a MONTH... they are crying to the nerf.
Hypocrites?
I'm not even playing Toss, but for god fucking sake, can we wait another month or two before crying at the imbalance? There was not even that many games played during that month. And it's the most balanced month yet. 49,1% win rate for terran, how can they cry when they were in the complete denial when they were at 58%? I don't even get it.
It's possible it's different people crying you know? 
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