|
On December 06 2011 16:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 16:13 LeapofFaith wrote:
First time Terran has dropped below a 50% win rate o.O TvZ is quite balanced, PvT and PvZ need a bit more work. I'm still not understanding what happened in PvT though. Did the upgrade buff/emp nerf really make that much of a difference? Terrans are still modifying their builds after their EMP nerf, and Protoss just discovered that double forge builds are viable, so PvT is still being smoothed out. Terrans will surely recover.
People have known about double forge and chargelot spam builds for ages.
I have no idea why the builds even disappeared to begin with. I seem to recall it having to do with it dying to ghost timings, but I could be wrong. As far as terran recovering, they'll inch closer to the 50% win rate, but protoss will still always be the stronger lategame race if nothing changes, which indicates a bad matchup.
|
On December 06 2011 20:56 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 16:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 16:13 LeapofFaith wrote:
First time Terran has dropped below a 50% win rate o.O TvZ is quite balanced, PvT and PvZ need a bit more work. I'm still not understanding what happened in PvT though. Did the upgrade buff/emp nerf really make that much of a difference? Terrans are still modifying their builds after their EMP nerf, and Protoss just discovered that double forge builds are viable, so PvT is still being smoothed out. Terrans will surely recover. People have known about double forge and chargelot spam builds for ages. I have no idea why the builds even disappeared to begin with. I seem to recall it having to do with it dying to ghost timings, but I could be wrong. As far as terran recovering, they'll inch closer to the 50% win rate, but protoss will still always be the stronger lategame race if nothing changes, which indicates a bad matchup.
As far as I know, double forge was the standard for a while even before the patch.. it never disappeared. I have no idea why people are saying it was "just discovered."
|
On December 05 2011 20:51 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. Right, Terran can't stick with MMMGV the entire time. Unfortunately the Factory units are even worse in the lategame: Tanks are countered by pretty much everything in the Toss lategamearsenal and Thors get feedbacked. Or how often do you see pros using mech vP? Also Ladderterrans below GM above low Diamond have it even harder then the pros imo. I as a Terran am superhappy, that the TLPD winrates, which everyone seems to care about the most for some reason, are not longer in our favor. Now we can finally cry as much as the toss and maybe we get buffed in return :D So what you're saying is that because the charts now show that the game is finally balanced you as a Terran are going to whine so they buff u again making the game inbalanced again? And you wonder why Protoss and Zerg players always dislike Terrans...
|
On December 06 2011 21:17 Ehralur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 20:51 Greenei wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. Right, Terran can't stick with MMMGV the entire time. Unfortunately the Factory units are even worse in the lategame: Tanks are countered by pretty much everything in the Toss lategamearsenal and Thors get feedbacked. Or how often do you see pros using mech vP? Also Ladderterrans below GM above low Diamond have it even harder then the pros imo. I as a Terran am superhappy, that the TLPD winrates, which everyone seems to care about the most for some reason, are not longer in our favor. Now we can finally cry as much as the toss and maybe we get buffed in return :D So what you're saying is that because the charts now show that the game is finally balanced you as a Terran are going to whine so they buff u again making the game inbalanced again? And you wonder why Protoss and Zerg players always dislike Terrans...
It's not balanced though is it, looking at the TvP win rate you cannot say that match up is balanced, it is in fact of the three match ups the MOST imbalanced, especially due to the fact that at lower skill levels it becomes even more imbalanced.
EDIT: Really hope I don't get a warning for that but it's just obvious that at lower skill levels and lower APMs it is far far harder for a T to perfectly micro a 200 vs 200 battle compared to the relatively simple micro P has to do. (T absolutely HAS to EMP/Snipe every Templar, Stim and focus Colossi along with trying to kite zealots and move any sections of army out of storms that do land or they WILL lose unless upgrades are stupidly off or P has decided to have mostly Stalkers or something. Meanwhile P simply has to land a storm that T cannot or doesn't move away from to pretty much guarantee winning the engagement and therefore game)
|
the graph for tvp doesn't match what the numbers say?
|
On December 06 2011 21:23 IMPrime wrote:
the graph for tvp doesn't match what the numbers say?
As the line on the graph is a moving average (so it takes in to account previous months)
|
Is everyone looking at the same graphs I am? It's like a 54.5% winrate for PvT both internationally and in Korea. In a single month. After multiple months of Terran having at least as high a winrate. And you guys are whining that Protoss is too hard to beat in TvP? Get some bloody perspective.
|
On December 06 2011 21:36 Severian wrote:
Is everyone looking at the same graphs I am? It's like a 54.5% winrate for PvT both internationally and in Korea. In a single month. After multiple months of Terran having at least as high a winrate. And you guys are whining that Protoss is too hard to beat in TvP? Get some bloody perspective.
I suggest you do the same. There's a reason a graph swings that wildly in the other direction.
Also, protosses being to hard to beat in TvP has nothing to do with the recent changes. Protoss lategame has been hard to deal with since people found out that chargelots were good units, which honestly took a lot longer than it should have had...
|
On December 06 2011 21:19 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 21:17 Ehralur wrote:On December 05 2011 20:51 Greenei wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. Right, Terran can't stick with MMMGV the entire time. Unfortunately the Factory units are even worse in the lategame: Tanks are countered by pretty much everything in the Toss lategamearsenal and Thors get feedbacked. Or how often do you see pros using mech vP? Also Ladderterrans below GM above low Diamond have it even harder then the pros imo. I as a Terran am superhappy, that the TLPD winrates, which everyone seems to care about the most for some reason, are not longer in our favor. Now we can finally cry as much as the toss and maybe we get buffed in return :D So what you're saying is that because the charts now show that the game is finally balanced you as a Terran are going to whine so they buff u again making the game inbalanced again? And you wonder why Protoss and Zerg players always dislike Terrans... It's not balanced though is it, looking at the TvP win rate you cannot say that match up is balanced, it is in fact of the three match ups the MOST imbalanced, especially due to the fact that at lower skill levels it becomes even more imbalanced. EDIT: Really hope I don't get a warning for that but it's just obvious that at lower skill levels and lower APMs it is far far harder for a T to perfectly micro a 200 vs 200 battle compared to the relatively simple micro P has to do. (T absolutely HAS to EMP/Snipe every Templar, Stim and focus Colossi along with trying to kite zealots and move any sections of army out of storms that do land or they WILL lose unless upgrades are stupidly off or P has decided to have mostly Stalkers or something. Meanwhile P simply has to land a storm that T cannot or doesn't move away from to pretty much guarantee winning the engagement and therefore game)
I, as a low level P, wholeheartedly agree with you. As long as I can get to 200/200 with both Colossi and HTs against a terran, I feel like I have already won (and I usually win).
On the other hand, this is just one half of the picture. Before AOE units, it feels to me that the roles are completely reversed. For me it is extremely difficult to hold early M&M agression, even though I have heard countelss adivces what to do, I am just not physically capable of doing it. Not to mention SCV all-ins, that is a free win against me.
The point is that as the TvP matchup stands right now, it is impossible to balance for all skill levels at once by just fiddling around with some numbers.
|
God people, stop relying entirely on these graphs to determine balance! Yes it might be a SMALL indication of balance but from in between months, the meta game shifts and the win rates changes. As it is right now, terrans are having some problem versus protoss in the PROGRAMMING scene only for the first time since a long time. Do you guyz remember terran using a different strategy or a different way of playing vs protoss besides MMMGV? not really...They will adapt and find new ways to win and will probably get back up. Personnally, as a High master, I find it super hard to deal with mech or with a terran that goes mass air. Even a couple ravens with seeker missile is hard to deal with and are not seen very often.
Terran, in my belief never had to be imaginative in PvT. Now they will probably try to be. Just wait and stop complaining.
However, I think terran should get a late game buff and protoss an early game buff...as well as a overall nerf for zerg (like roach cost increase) if we want a good balance...BC's pretty much suck ATM in all matchups, roach tech switch is insane in ALL match and they are way too spammable and protoss is simply too weak/reliant on FF in the early stage.
|
On December 06 2011 20:56 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 16:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 16:13 LeapofFaith wrote:
First time Terran has dropped below a 50% win rate o.O TvZ is quite balanced, PvT and PvZ need a bit more work. I'm still not understanding what happened in PvT though. Did the upgrade buff/emp nerf really make that much of a difference? Terrans are still modifying their builds after their EMP nerf, and Protoss just discovered that double forge builds are viable, so PvT is still being smoothed out. Terrans will surely recover. People have known about double forge and chargelot spam builds for ages. I have no idea why the builds even disappeared to begin with. I seem to recall it having to do with it dying to ghost timings, but I could be wrong. As far as terran recovering, they'll inch closer to the 50% win rate, but protoss will still always be the stronger lategame race if nothing changes, which indicates a bad matchup.
Yeah that's pretty odd. I'm with you on that one; I'd also guess that most Protoss started sticking to one forge instead of two if they thought an early timing attack was coming.
|
On December 06 2011 21:42 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 21:19 mvtaylor wrote:On December 06 2011 21:17 Ehralur wrote:On December 05 2011 20:51 Greenei wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. Right, Terran can't stick with MMMGV the entire time. Unfortunately the Factory units are even worse in the lategame: Tanks are countered by pretty much everything in the Toss lategamearsenal and Thors get feedbacked. Or how often do you see pros using mech vP? Also Ladderterrans below GM above low Diamond have it even harder then the pros imo. I as a Terran am superhappy, that the TLPD winrates, which everyone seems to care about the most for some reason, are not longer in our favor. Now we can finally cry as much as the toss and maybe we get buffed in return :D So what you're saying is that because the charts now show that the game is finally balanced you as a Terran are going to whine so they buff u again making the game inbalanced again? And you wonder why Protoss and Zerg players always dislike Terrans... It's not balanced though is it, looking at the TvP win rate you cannot say that match up is balanced, it is in fact of the three match ups the MOST imbalanced, especially due to the fact that at lower skill levels it becomes even more imbalanced. EDIT: Really hope I don't get a warning for that but it's just obvious that at lower skill levels and lower APMs it is far far harder for a T to perfectly micro a 200 vs 200 battle compared to the relatively simple micro P has to do. (T absolutely HAS to EMP/Snipe every Templar, Stim and focus Colossi along with trying to kite zealots and move any sections of army out of storms that do land or they WILL lose unless upgrades are stupidly off or P has decided to have mostly Stalkers or something. Meanwhile P simply has to land a storm that T cannot or doesn't move away from to pretty much guarantee winning the engagement and therefore game) I, as a low level P, wholeheartedly agree with you. As long as I can get to 200/200 with both Colossi and HTs against a terran, I feel like I have already won (and I usually win). On the other hand, this is just one half of the picture. Before AOE units, it feels to me that the roles are completely reversed. For me it is extremely difficult to hold early M&M agression, even though I have heard countelss adivces what to do, I am just not physically capable of doing it. Not to mention SCV all-ins, that is a free win against me. The point is that as the TvP matchup stands right now, it is impossible to balance for all skill levels at once by just fiddling around with some numbers.
I'm in high master league on Europe, and I've lost most of my TvP's since the nerf and was losing them even before, because chargelot heavy colossus storm comps with no archons always and always will rape Terran. I never understood why Protoss expects Archons to work in TvP, but they whined and whined and Blizzard kept nerfing as usual. You don't see mech working in TvP and it never got buffed or anything to work. Just lame really, just shows how clueless Blizzard is. But with Archons, this stupid expectation that they're supposed to work in a matchup where the other race has an unit that simply super hard counters them and Blizzard nerfing EMP to actually make Archons work is the stupidest thing I've seen in this game's short history. Sad really, the fact that Terran has to wait for a freaking addon for any change and fix in strategies and gameplay compared to Protoss and Zerg, who seem to get whatever they want in every patch.
|
Vatican City State334 Posts
As a Protoss I'm quite glad Terrans virtually never use mech or air, out of the 2000 games I've played I must have seen those types of builds about 30 times and they're incredibly difficult to beat late game. It's especially bad if Terran denies scouting and starts getting the dreaded banshees + vikings to auto kill all your observers. Terrans definitely haven't used those styles enough to say it won't work, you've had over a year to develop bio play. Terrans would have to go mech for a year, with plenty of painful losses, until they could develop a mech style as developed as their bio.
|
|
|
Man protoss users are trolling hard tonight.
|
53%, 54% and 52%, Looks pretty good
|
Lol at that swing for TvP Korea.. Crazy.
|
looks like idra was right once again!
|
I'll just say this about toss...
- They suck earlygame
- They're OP lategame
As for what changes should happen, I know suggesting anything will instantly make people flame me, but I don't think anyone can disagree with the above 2 statements.
|
On December 06 2011 23:12 IMPrime wrote:
I'll just say this about toss...
- They suck earlygame
- They're OP lategame
As for what changes should happen, I know suggesting anything will instantly make people flame me, but I don't think anyone can disagree with the above 2 statements.
Protoss doesn't suck earlygame.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
