EPTSay that to the recipent of a 2rax with 3-5 scvs pulled
[Nov] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 23
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
Say that to the recipent of a 2rax with 3-5 scvs pulled | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
Neither is they OP lategame TT | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44272 Posts
Agreed. It's never so black and white, and certainly not as exaggerated. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On December 06 2011 23:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Agreed. It's never so black and white, and certainly not as exaggerated. I'm not gonna say they're OP. But I feel the general consensus among both terrans and protoss is that the protoss is much, much more comfortable in the late game when you have all tech paths and upgrades available, and the terran does their best to be aggressive immediately after ghost/medivacs start coming out. It's pretty obvious. Protoss keeps teching while terrans stop and just work on the same stuff. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
On December 06 2011 23:21 Itsmedudeman wrote: I'm not gonna say they're OP. But I feel the general consensus among both terrans and protoss is that the protoss is much, much more comfortable in the late game when you have all tech paths and upgrades available, and the terran does their best to be aggressive immediately after ghost/medivacs start coming out. It's pretty obvious. Protoss keeps teching while terrans stop and just work on the same stuff. I'm just gonna say that achiving a perfect 50/50 in TvP seems sooo hard. Even the smallest change seems to throw the winratios huge distances away. I agree with the general concensus that Terran has it easier earlygame, and Toss has it easier lategame, but easier doesn't mean better though. Not sure exactly what needs to be done about it though. | ||
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phiinix
United States1169 Posts
On December 06 2011 17:24 jmbthirteen wrote: I don't want to see anyone from any race crying imba now. Can we please just let the game play out for a few months? PLEASEEEE. T_T To be honest, there will always be some very outspoken complainers, but I really do hope the general consensus is at the least "play more games to find out". Hopefully now that protoss has a winning month, sotg won't (or rather incontrol won't) be so fast to say blizzard is still terrible.(side note, i don't hate him, and even though he often covered his bases by saying "now I don't want people to think I'm ungrateful, but..." it's quite upsetting how he was so pessimistic about the future of protoss) People thought the fungel nerf was not big enough, that the forge upgrades were useless, that the emp nerf wouldn't really matter because terran just had to get more ghosts out herp, but that's all that's really changed, and large sample or not, and these results show SOMETHING. I'd almost be willing to bet my life that the chances of this months rates being what they are in comparison to any other month, or collection of months, is slim to nil. It's really quite silly if you think an extra 1000 today would cause something as large as what we see in tvp-pvt. Will terrans figure out something in the next 1000 games? maybe, but that argument can be made for any mu at any time. tl:dr to conclude these results aren't significant in any way is ignorant, to complain about balance is also ignorant. | ||
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d_wAy
United States104 Posts
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mrvidek
Romania15 Posts
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Tuk
United Kingdom223 Posts
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On December 07 2011 02:41 Tuk wrote: Its not really balanced tbh PvT is pretty heavy towards toss and PvZ is pretty heavy towards zerg and TvZ is heavy towards terran, its an improvement i guess but its a long way off. Not really. Even in a balanced game like BW, win rates would fluctuate from 45%-55% all the time. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On December 06 2011 22:04 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: I'm in high master league on Europe, and I've lost most of my TvP's since the nerf and was losing them even before, because chargelot heavy colossus storm comps with no archons always and always will rape Terran. I never understood why Protoss expects Archons to work in TvP, but they whined and whined and Blizzard kept nerfing as usual. You don't see mech working in TvP and it never got buffed or anything to work. Just lame really, just shows how clueless Blizzard is. But with Archons, this stupid expectation that they're supposed to work in a matchup where the other race has an unit that simply super hard counters them and Blizzard nerfing EMP to actually make Archons work is the stupidest thing I've seen in this game's short history. Sad really, the fact that Terran has to wait for a freaking addon for any change and fix in strategies and gameplay compared to Protoss and Zerg, who seem to get whatever they want in every patch. Blizzard buffed archons because they didn't want HT's Amulet in the game- so they had to make templar tech better. I'm OK with really strong spells because it creates more need for critical micro during a battle. But HTs were just not scary enough, IMO, and are very much support units. Whereas ghosts (especially old EMP radius) and infestors (with old neural) start to become the backbone of the army in certain builds. I'd be fine with that (their incarnation prior to nerfs) if they had obvious weaknesses or if the HT was equally scary. Warpin with Amulet used to be scary at least against unprepared or low-micro players (fine otherwise IMO), but that was yanked. So now the other spellcasters are coming down in potency because Protoss couldn't keep up. Blizzard is (purposely or not) aiming to please people that like big battles with less micro... makes me kinda sad. One culprit to the problem above is, dare I say, the western view of never ever miss a beat with your macro. There are times when you should miss a larva inject or whatever to micro closer to perfectly. But with that macro first no matter what attitude, aspiring ladder players ignore the fight too much and die to something they could have microed against... and it slowly becomes forum food for imba this and that when it may not be a problem. On the TvP mech argument, I'll say this. Mech + bio can be very good. Terran air can be very good. It may not be good in a turtle till max scenario though. It doesn't have to be all in if it guarantees you have freedom to expand more than you typically would and threaten deadly pressure onto P. Also, pure mech in TvP (like in BW) will probably never make sense in SC2... it just doesn't fit in, like how pure Protoss air will never make sense PvT. But the new battle hellions are scary as hell. Maybe if Protoss harassment truly gets bumped up, it will all balance out in HOTS. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 07 2011 04:07 Blacklizard wrote: Blizzard buffed archons because they didn't want HT's Amulet in the game- so they had to make templar tech better. I'm OK with really strong spells because it creates more need for critical micro during a battle. But HTs were just not scary enough, IMO, and are very much support units. Whereas ghosts (especially old EMP radius) and infestors (with old neural) start to become the backbone of the army in certain builds. I'd be fine with that (their incarnation prior to nerfs) if they had obvious weaknesses or if the HT was equally scary. Warpin with Amulet used to be scary at least against unprepared or low-micro players (fine otherwise IMO), but that was yanked. So now the other spellcasters are coming down in potency because Protoss couldn't keep up. Blizzard is (purposely or not) aiming to please people that like big battles with less micro... makes me kinda sad. One culprit to the problem above is, dare I say, the western view of never ever miss a beat with your macro. There are times when you should miss a larva inject or whatever to micro closer to perfectly. But with that macro first no matter what attitude, aspiring ladder players ignore the fight too much and die to something they could have microed against... and it slowly becomes forum food for imba this and that when it may not be a problem. On the TvP mech argument, I'll say this. Mech + bio can be very good. Terran air can be very good. It may not be good in a turtle till max scenario though. It doesn't have to be all in if it guarantees you have freedom to expand more than you typically would and threaten deadly pressure onto P. Also, pure mech in TvP (like in BW) will probably never make sense in SC2... it just doesn't fit in, like how pure Protoss air will never make sense PvT. But the new battle hellions are scary as hell. Maybe if Protoss harassment truly gets bumped up, it will all balance out in HOTS. Well there is actually no Mech argument. TvP is very balanced right now. Agreed designwise it would be better if every unit was kind of viable in some form in every matchup, but balancewise there is absolutly no need for Tanks, Thors and Hellions to work (especially if used only in this combination). Furthermore, the tanks role in TvP (1-1-1 or similar 1base or 2base allins) is at least as big as the hydras role in ZvP or the ultras role in ZvP or the corruptors role in ZvT or the Pheonix/Void Rays role in PvT. Not even to mention the unit without any role in the game: the carrier. It usually comes down to the argument "I want to play Mech", not to "I need to transition out of bio". Actually, if Terran had ever had a phase in which they had struggled vs Protoss (like ZvP and PvZ both had/have their phases of "imbalance" and some ZvT phases also haven't been too great for zergs), we would have at least seen experiments with Mech and Air in high level play (apart from them being used rather frequently in lower leagues such as Masters downwards). Not seeing any transitions in the lategame from Code A and S Terrans is rather a huge sign that "Bio until end of times" works at least in practice rather well and there is no need to do anything else. On the HT's: Amulet was imba... Really good decision from blizzard to remove it. | ||
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GwSC
United States1997 Posts
On December 05 2011 19:49 Chaosvuistje wrote: Cmon Protoss You can get there!It's going to be so glorious to have the w/l ratios balance out just in time for HotS to completely devastate everything again :D! THIS. Ugh. I actually can't wait for these expansions to be over with. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
But Patch 1.4 proved that you can ruin TvT with a Terran nerf, now it's all bio bio bio!  | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On December 07 2011 04:07 Blacklizard wrote: Blizzard buffed archons because they didn't want HT's Amulet in the game- so they had to make templar tech better. Since when has HT tech needed to be buffed? It was only recently that players actually started doing Templar in a Prism, and for a while Protoss players would just clump up every single Templar they had and expect them to not get EMPed or something. I'm still convinced that storm is and always has been the best spell in the game because a single storm does far more damage than a single EMP or Fungal. If microed against, the Protoss should be able to get off two or three storms which will leave every Marine in red health and every Marauder in Orange-ish health. Then Colossi just clean up the job because they only need to attack once or twice to kill super weakened bio. Storm also seems like it can turn a lost game around more than any other spell, because one good storm can devastate as much as a Hellion drop (pre 1.4 I might add) or weaken an army to the point that it will die soon after (of course, if the Terran fails to micro against storm then their units all just die). | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On December 06 2011 16:36 kofman wrote: The emp nerf was huge. I dont think the upgrade buff actually affects the game that much, but it encouraged protosses to go double forge again, which was a really good strat that people had just forgotten about i guess... No but players like Oz, HerO, and Naniwa are actually coming up with new stuff and people aren't used to Protoss players doing something new. | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
On December 07 2011 06:16 The Final Boss wrote: Since when has HT tech needed to be buffed? It was only recently that players actually started doing Templar in a Prism, and for a while Protoss players would just clump up every single Templar they had and expect them to not get EMPed or something. I'm still convinced that storm is and always has been the best spell in the game because a single storm does far more damage than a single EMP or Fungal. If microed against, the Protoss should be able to get off two or three storms which will leave every Marine in red health and every Marauder in Orange-ish health. Then Colossi just clean up the job because they only need to attack once or twice to kill super weakened bio. Storm also seems like it can turn a lost game around more than any other spell, because one good storm can devastate as much as a Hellion drop (pre 1.4 I might add) or weaken an army to the point that it will die soon after (of course, if the Terran fails to micro against storm then their units all just die). This is exactly the problem right now in TvP. The matchup isn't that balanced at all because you can't call a matchup freaking well balanced, when Terran needs to micro separate groups of bio perfectly, micro vikings, not miss 1 EMP on the Protoss army, and still deny any storms, while Protoss just A moves, and presses T a few times. Furthermore it only takes a couple of storms to leave bio with 1 hp, while it takes carpet EMPS on the whole Protoss army for Terran to even stand a chance. And it's been like this for a long time now, Protoss just got it in their heads that they need to make Archons in TvP. Chargelot heavy colossus armies with a few high templars have always been a bane for Terran, yet ppl wen't insane on the Archons and ofc expected them to work so Blizzard made them work. 2 bad Terran strats have been the same since beta. Bio Bio and more Bio. And when Terran's say they'd like Mech to work, you get replies like " Terran doesn't need Mech". Seriously? You get to use most of your tech tree and Terran get's what? Funny how it took an addon for Mech to be made viable while every patch Zerg and Protoss get what they want and Terran gets nerfed continuously cuz Protoss has it 2 hard with A moving and Zergs can't stop whining no matter how many times their "UP" race gets buffed. Please. And please, no more of the Bio-Mech can work crap. If you're not going full bio lategame, you've got a deathwish. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On December 08 2011 13:49 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: This is the exactly the problem right now in TvP. The matchup isn't balanced at all because you can't call a matchup freaking balanced, when Terran needs to micro separate groups of bio perfectly, micro vikings, not miss 1 EMP on the Protoss army, and still deny any storms, while Protoss just A moves, and presses T a few times. Furthermore it only takes a couple of storms to leave bio with 1 hp, while it takes carpet EMPS on the whole Protoss army for Terran to even stand a chance. And it's been like these for a long time now, Protoss just got it in their heads that they need to make Archons in TvP. Chargelot heavy colossus armies with a few high templars have always been a bane for Terran, yet ppl wen't insane on the Archons and ofc expected them to work so Blizzard made them work. 2 bad Terran strats have been the same since beta. Bio Bio and more Bio. And when Terran's say they'd like Mech to work, you get replies like " Terran doesn't need Mech". Seriously? You get to use most of your tech tree and Terran get's what? Funny how it took an addon for Mech to be made viable while every patch Zerg and Protoss get what they want and Terran gets nerfed continuously cuz Protoss has it 2 hard with A moving and Zergs can't stop whining no matter how many times their "UP" race gets buffed. Please. And please, no more of the Bio-Mech can work crap. If you're not going full bio lategame, you've got a deathwish. I think its gonna stay this way, bud. Because at the high level, Terran players can do all the things they need to in a big engagement, so Blizzard needs to give pro Protosses a chance against that. Thus at the masters/diamond level, Protoss players with decent macro dominate Terrans of similar skill in long games because engaging a Protoss army with bio once both forms of AOE + chargelots are on the field takes multitasking on Brood War levels. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On December 06 2011 22:09 Sated wrote: The EMP change has just punished bad Terrans really hard because they've relied on blanket EMPs for too long, this is why the graph has swung so badly this month. Terrans who could previously do well by relying on Ghosts are getting stomped by Protoss players who were always better than them, but were fighting against Ghosts being ridiculous. Don't worry, Terran players. All will be well. And if not, you could always try Battlecruisers! No one uses capital ships, you should use them more! (Hehehehe...) ALL Terran players relied on EMP blankets... If you dont use emp blankets, you are bad. Now, ghosts are a lot weaker. Its amazing that you consider terran players who use emp worse than protoss players, but just abusing emp to win. Try the battlecruiser? what a joke of a unit. 1. It can get feedbacked 2. its slow as hell 3. Stalkers own them | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On December 08 2011 14:07 kofman wrote: ALL Terran players relied on EMP blankets... If you dont use emp blankets, you are bad. Now, ghosts are a lot weaker. Its amazing that you consider terran players who use emp worse than protoss players, but just abusing emp to win. Try the battlecruiser? what a joke of a unit. 1. It can get feedbacked 2. its slow as hell 3. Stalkers own them Carriers die 1v1 to BC's before yamato, are significantly slower, and MARINES own them. Marines are lower tier than stalkers, im not sure where your argument comes from. | ||
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