|
On December 06 2011 08:56 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:20 Quotidian wrote:
I don't like this attitude. I'm not going to say it's viable, but mech is hardly ever experimented. 1-1-1 is a bio/mech push and it is the most powerful push Terran can do. Lately, MVP and Puma have been doing 2 base 1-1-1 as well. Maybe it isn't viable in long games, maybe you can only use it in timing pushes, but to say it's completely useless after not seeing a single mech game (besides MC vs Jinro, the only game I can think of) is the wrong way to approach things. Show nested quote +This just isn't true. There has been a ton of attempts at getting mech to work.. and beyond that we have Goody to show us how it really, really doesn't work, if you want a current example. I don't think there has been "a ton of attempts." I have seen Carriers more often in tournaments than pure mech TvP. Mentioning Goody of why mech doesn't work is a great example, however, he's not really one of more accomplished progamers (not to take anything away from him) and he's one person out of hundreds of top players.
Oh, but there have been a ton of attempts despite what you think. There was a long period when a lot of the people on the strategy forum here were discussing and trying develop mech, and you can be sure that if people here tried to figure it out, the pros have at one point too. The reason you don't see mech much in tournaments is that it only takes a few practice games to understand that playing mech (beyond some gimmicky all-in) is way too risky and too easily countered to be viable in a tournament setting. I remember there was a time when there was a small surge of Korean replays where people were trying mech, and ultimately failing. I remember MVP going mech in the GSL and it failing. I remember Jinro beating MC with mech and then never playing mech again. Has Jinro ever officially stated why he abandoned that style by the way?
I didn't see that Jjakji vs Oz game so I can't really comment on that, but since Jjakji won that game, shouldn't we be more optimistic of new ideas instead of instantly shooting them down? If people were really innovating mech and showcased in a few games and it failed horribly, then you can say they tried and it really isn't viable, but there's been literally no such games.
Jjakji has at no point in recent history been playing "mech".
Vs Puzzle, he did a nice tank/bunker contain into MMM (surprise surprise) on Eye of the Storm. The contain evaporated once charge finished, proving that tanks have very limited window of opportunity in tvp. And he's done a 2 base thor/banshee build. In those kinds of games, it's the cloaked banshees that are the winning units. Thors are essentially a waste of resources and supply, because marine/marauder and vikings to kill observers will do the same job better (you can micro against storm/colossi, for instance).
I didn't see the Jjakji vs Oz series, but from what I could gather from the live reports, he didn't do the thor/banshee build in that series - correct me if I'm wrong though
Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that there should be more attempts of trying mech, especially since every game I seen with mech, mech ends up winning. There's no reason to be pessimistic.
I really doubt you've seen that many mech tvps then. The game has been out for a while now - if mech worked in their current state, people would use them, especially in the late game. It has nothing to do with pessimism, it's just the way the match up is designed.
|
I'm actually happy that terran is now performing the worst. Don't have to listen to as much protoss whine that way.
|
Mmm. So this is how it feels to be above 50% win rate. GO TOSS! All your hard work finally paid off.
|
On December 06 2011 08:56 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:20 Quotidian wrote:
I don't like this attitude. I'm not going to say it's viable, but mech is hardly ever experimented. 1-1-1 is a bio/mech push and it is the most powerful push Terran can do. Lately, MVP and Puma have been doing 2 base 1-1-1 as well. Maybe it isn't viable in long games, maybe you can only use it in timing pushes, but to say it's completely useless after not seeing a single mech game (besides MC vs Jinro, the only game I can think of) is the wrong way to approach things. This just isn't true. There has been a ton of attempts at getting mech to work.. and beyond that we have Goody to show us how it really, really doesn't work, if you want a current example. I don't think there has been "a ton of attempts." I have seen Carriers more often in tournaments than pure mech TvP. Mentioning Goody of why mech doesn't work is a great example, however, he's not really one of more accomplished progamers (not to take anything away from him) and he's one person out of hundreds of top players. I didn't see that Jjakji vs Oz game so I can't really comment on that, but since Jjakji won that game, shouldn't we be more optimistic of new ideas instead of instantly shooting them down? If people were really innovating mech and showcased in a few games and it failed horribly, then you can say they tried and it really isn't viable, but there's been literally no such games. Actually, I just remembered while typing this post of the game between Thorzain vs MC, where mech beat the standard Protoss army despite it being scouted. Then again, Thors got nerfed after that. ><" Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that there should be more attempts of trying mech, especially since every game I seen with mech, mech ends up winning. There's no reason to be pessimistic.
GoOdy has some of the best TvZ Mech outside of Korea, so to say that he isn't accomplished is naive. Personally as a meching Terran I think GoOdy is really great at TvT and TvZ, but his TvP is really awful. And one major thing to note about the Jjakji vs Puzzle game is that Puzzle had no Templar Tech. Storms and Feedback would really have decimated Jjakji's army, and his strategy relied on the substantial lead his Banshee play had gained him.
Another game that people point to is Byun vs a Protoss(I believe it's Oz, but I'm not sure) on Tal'Darim Altar in Code A. Byun goes 2 base, 4 fact 3 reactor Tank/Hellion (if that makes any sense) and wins mainly due to the ridiculousness of the build. Part of the reason mech worked in these games (in my opinion) is just the odd nature of the builds; given time and practice against them they would almost certainly fail.
|
On December 06 2011 08:58 ooozer wrote:
ZvT in korea is so lol.
Yeah jeez. I was going to point out that TvP is almost as bad, but then I noticed the ominous splitting trend of TvZ that TvP doesn't have. Terran is still the best where the best players are.
People who say that the "P>T>Z>P" cycle of BW is clearly being mimicked just because this month happens to have a similar trend are frustrating me, because they're ignoring the fact that Terran is recovering from a patch and there's not even a monthly trend of this yet (whereas BW was an established game for many years).
|
On December 06 2011 09:56 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:56 K3Nyy wrote:On December 06 2011 07:20 Quotidian wrote:
I don't like this attitude. I'm not going to say it's viable, but mech is hardly ever experimented. 1-1-1 is a bio/mech push and it is the most powerful push Terran can do. Lately, MVP and Puma have been doing 2 base 1-1-1 as well. Maybe it isn't viable in long games, maybe you can only use it in timing pushes, but to say it's completely useless after not seeing a single mech game (besides MC vs Jinro, the only game I can think of) is the wrong way to approach things. This just isn't true. There has been a ton of attempts at getting mech to work.. and beyond that we have Goody to show us how it really, really doesn't work, if you want a current example. I don't think there has been "a ton of attempts." I have seen Carriers more often in tournaments than pure mech TvP. Mentioning Goody of why mech doesn't work is a great example, however, he's not really one of more accomplished progamers (not to take anything away from him) and he's one person out of hundreds of top players. I didn't see that Jjakji vs Oz game so I can't really comment on that, but since Jjakji won that game, shouldn't we be more optimistic of new ideas instead of instantly shooting them down? If people were really innovating mech and showcased in a few games and it failed horribly, then you can say they tried and it really isn't viable, but there's been literally no such games. Actually, I just remembered while typing this post of the game between Thorzain vs MC, where mech beat the standard Protoss army despite it being scouted. Then again, Thors got nerfed after that. ><" Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that there should be more attempts of trying mech, especially since every game I seen with mech, mech ends up winning. There's no reason to be pessimistic. GoOdy has some of the best TvZ Mech outside of Korea, so to say that he isn't accomplished is naive. Personally as a meching Terran I think GoOdy is really great at TvT and TvZ, but his TvP is really awful. And one major thing to note about the Jjakji vs Puzzle game is that Puzzle had no Templar Tech. Storms and Feedback would really have decimated Jjakji's army, and his strategy relied on the substantial lead his Banshee play had gained him. Another game that people point to is Byun vs a Protoss(I believe it's Oz, but I'm not sure) on Tal'Darim Altar in Code A. Byun goes 2 base, 4 fact 3 reactor Tank/Hellion (if that makes any sense) and wins mainly due to the ridiculousness of the build. Part of the reason mech worked in these games (in my opinion) is just the odd nature of the builds; given time and practice against them they would almost certainly fail.
Yeah and GoOdy has already stated that mech isn't viable TvP anymore and this is the reason he's had poor results recently b/c he's been using bio in TvP and he's not very good at it. People keep citing Jjakji's build as evidence that mech works but Jjajkji's build is a 2 base all-in and you can't rely on using an all-in as the basis for how you play an entire match-up. Trust me when I say this, but terran players would love nothing better than for mech to be viable versus toss.
|
On December 06 2011 09:55 kofman wrote:
I'm actually happy that terran is now performing the worst. Don't have to listen to as much protoss whine that way.
Don't get your hopes up xD
|
korean protoss is finally doing work! but foreign protoss is seriously sucking (in ZvP). Of course, there is a bigger pool of games in the international scene but my god, they need to shape up! TvZ is still a mess, even in foreign land.
|
On December 06 2011 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Yeah jeez. I was going to point out that TvP is almost as bad, but then I noticed the ominous splitting trend of TvZ that TvP doesn't have. Terran is still the best where the best players are. People who say that the "P>T>Z>P" cycle of BW is clearly being mimicked just because this month happens to have a similar trend are frustrating me, because they're ignoring the fact that Terran is recovering from a patch and there's not even a monthly trend of this yet (whereas BW was an established game for many years).
I agree. The nature of the patch is going to cause a flux for a period of time, but if the patch threw the match up out of balance it can't really be noticeable for at least a month if not two months after the patch goes live.
This is to give the players time to adjust to the changes.
I'm still facepalming at the people in this thread who are attempting to claim that Mech hasn't been thoroughly tested in TvP. It has, it's been VERY thoroughly tested and even at the peak of Terran dominance of the match up it was thought to be not viable.
Let me give you guys a hint. Strategy is considered not viable before your race receives significant nerfs, the strat is going to STILL not be viable after your race is nerfed and your opponent's race is buffed.
Any sort of viability mech may have once had at any point in Wings of Liberty was shattered by 3 significant patch changes.
1. The nerf to Blue Flame Hellions: removes any cost effective counter mech has for Zealots with charge especially when upgraded.
2. The Thor energy: self explanatory
3. The Forge Upgrade cost reduction: Mech already has a ridiculous time trying to keep up with upgrades, trying to keep up with upgrades that are out cheaper than ever is just a nightmare.
There are some builds that can be used with mech in an "all in" type situation and those builds still work, but that doesn't mean that mech itself is a viable standard playstyle it just means that mech can be used in an all in and succeed.
Contrary to popular belief, not every Terran wants to base his entire playstyle around all ins, what's more the major talking point right now is about TvP in the late game where the conversation right now is that the late game favors Protoss.
The rest of the game isn't really being discussed right now, the conversation is entirely focused around the late game. Mech has no presence in the late game, and probably won't have one ever. It's too expensive to field, too expensive to upgrade, too slow to produce, and isn't nearly cost effective enough to make up for those weaknesses.
I still don't think the match up favors Protoss at the moment. But trying to tell Terrans to use mech is just an argument based on theorycraft and nothing else. I encourage any player that doesn't believe otherwise to try it and prove me wrong.
|
On December 06 2011 10:30 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 08:58 ooozer wrote:
ZvT in korea is so lol. Yeah jeez. I was going to point out that TvP is almost as bad, but then I noticed the ominous splitting trend of TvZ that TvP doesn't have. Terran is still the best where the best players are. People who say that the "P>T>Z>P" cycle of BW is clearly being mimicked just because this month happens to have a similar trend are frustrating me, because they're ignoring the fact that Terran is recovering from a patch and there's not even a monthly trend of this yet (whereas BW was an established game for many years). I agree. The nature of the patch is going to cause a flux for a period of time, but if the patch threw the match up out of balance it can't really be noticeable for at least a month if not two months after the patch goes live. This is to give the players time to adjust to the changes. I'm still facepalming at the people in this thread who are attempting to claim that Mech hasn't been thoroughly tested in TvP. It has, it's been VERY thoroughly tested and even at the peak of Terran dominance of the match up it was thought to be not viable. Let me give you guys a hint. Strategy is considered not viable before your race receives significant nerfs, the strat is going to STILL not be viable after your race is nerfed and your opponent's race is buffed. Any sort of viability mech may have once had at any point in Wings of Liberty was shattered by 3 significant patch changes. 1. The nerf to Blue Flame Hellions: removes any cost effective counter mech has for Zealots with charge especially when upgraded. 2. The Thor energy: self explanatory 3. The Forge Upgrade cost reduction: Mech already has a ridiculous time trying to keep up with upgrades, trying to keep up with upgrades that are out cheaper than ever is just a nightmare. There are some builds that can be used with mech in an "all in" type situation and those builds still work, but that doesn't mean that mech itself is a viable standard playstyle it just means that mech can be used in an all in and succeed. Contrary to popular belief, not every Terran wants to base his entire playstyle around all ins, what's more the major talking point right now is about TvP in the late game where the conversation right now is that the late game favors Protoss. The rest of the game isn't really being discussed right now, the conversation is entirely focused around the late game. Mech has no presence in the late game, and probably won't have one ever. It's too expensive to field, too expensive to upgrade, too slow to produce, and isn't nearly cost effective enough to make up for those weaknesses. I still don't think the match up favors Protoss at the moment. But trying to tell Terrans to use mech is just an argument based on theorycraft and nothing else. I encourage any player that doesn't believe otherwise to try it and prove me wrong.
Don't forget the siege tank damage nerf against light units. That alone made tanks almost useless against anything but stalkers and sentries.
|
On December 06 2011 08:58 ooozer wrote:
ZvT in korea is so lol.
At least that can be equated to metagame shifting. The PvT change on the otherhand is far too drastic for a meta game shift alone, 1.4.2 just ended up destroying the matchup in the opposite direction.
|
On December 06 2011 07:08 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 05 2011 21:15 storywriter wrote:On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. .... People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU. Terran is a hard race. Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied. Terran is by no means an easy race to play (except for mules) but I feel that saying you can't use tier 3 units because of feedback is going a little too far. It's not like archons and HTs don't see any use because of EMP. I'm still waiting for terrans to start adding in raven+banshee in late game with their excess gas. This combination looks incredibly powerful for a number of reasons. 1. ravens allow sniping of observers. 2. ravens counter both phoenixes and stalkers with PDD. 3. terran already gets ship attack upgrades and they scale super well on banshees. Armour doesn't matter as much thanks to PDD. While I acknowledge that feedback counters both units, PDD can always be cast pre-emptively, ghosts can take out HTs and as a last resort, banshees can burn energy. In worst case scenario, the feedbacked banshee/raven has most likely prevented a storm. This will of course require immensely difficult micro from the terran but I feel like that's what SC has always been about: beating the metagame by getting better (even if it feels like you have to play better than your opponent). Feedback is only one of like 10 reasons why Terran tier 3 units suck in TvP. There's a reason Terrans are getting the battle hellion and the Warhound in HOTS. There's a reason Blizz is making an honest effort to make mech viable in TvP, and that reason is that in Wings of Liberty, Bio is all Terran has against Protoss in the late game. That's just how it is. Protoss players that are trying to claim that Terrans at some point in this version of SC2 can stop relying on Bio units are delusional, I'm not trying to make a claim that TvP even favors Protoss at this point in time because I don't think it does, but all of this counter-argument of "use something other than MMMGV and you'll be ok" is just stupid. I think bio is really the best way to tvp too, but I've always wondered if maybe just adding 2-3 tanks in the mid-late game compo could be usefull, just to take some shots on the zealots when they attack, prevent the stalker from getting too close to the terran army and so protect the vikings, or just focus fire the colossus or the ht. I would love to have some feedback on this
Getting any tanks at all and trying to play a biomech style is a bad idea and the part of the reason why is chargelots and also archons. Because tank damage vs light units is not very good and zealots are quite beefy, the majority of them are guaranteed to get into your bio units and start dealing damage. Combine the splash damage from colossi with splash damage your tanks will do to your own units, and you've got some very dead marines and marauders very fast. Additionally, archons are not armored units, meaning tanks are even more useless against them. I'm not a pro by any stretch of the imagination, but I've seen what happens when I field various tank/bio compositions against chargelot/archon/HT/and/or colossus. It isn't pretty.
But really the main issue in battles is that colossi (and storm) are so strong that Terran always needs to have the option to kite and run away fast. This of course means that tanks would be left behind, and they're way too expensive and do too little damage to some of the more critical units in the deathball to justify getting. You can't just attack move (which is a good thing) or even rely on a strong static position (which is not a good thing) to beat a deathball. You need to be able to move in and out, get your viking hits off, and mitigate the amount of AOE damage that Protoss can put out in the mid to late game. Mech units aren't fast enough to keep up, so they die.
|
On December 06 2011 01:03 InFi.asc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 00:31 WinteRR wrote:
T 55% -> 45%. They went and broke TvP. Great.
That's a ridiculous swing, even though these stats can't be taken as gospel truth. that's like the funniest comment I have read i a while. Terran up 55 %: everything is all dandy protoss up 55%: matchup is broken!
You clearly didn't read my post did you? A 10% swing in the match-up is EXTREME.
Again, these numbers aren't gospel truth but a swing of that large of a percent indicates that danger signs are incoming for Blizzard in the coming months  . Sure Terran was stronger than P (strictly at kimchi terran levels) previously but you never seen inversions this big. The lack of consistency is surely alarming to anyone that can pick a trend.. although I don't expect most to be able to.
|
On December 06 2011 10:46 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 10:30 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 06 2011 10:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 08:58 ooozer wrote:
ZvT in korea is so lol. Yeah jeez. I was going to point out that TvP is almost as bad, but then I noticed the ominous splitting trend of TvZ that TvP doesn't have. Terran is still the best where the best players are. People who say that the "P>T>Z>P" cycle of BW is clearly being mimicked just because this month happens to have a similar trend are frustrating me, because they're ignoring the fact that Terran is recovering from a patch and there's not even a monthly trend of this yet (whereas BW was an established game for many years). I agree. The nature of the patch is going to cause a flux for a period of time, but if the patch threw the match up out of balance it can't really be noticeable for at least a month if not two months after the patch goes live. This is to give the players time to adjust to the changes. I'm still facepalming at the people in this thread who are attempting to claim that Mech hasn't been thoroughly tested in TvP. It has, it's been VERY thoroughly tested and even at the peak of Terran dominance of the match up it was thought to be not viable. Let me give you guys a hint. Strategy is considered not viable before your race receives significant nerfs, the strat is going to STILL not be viable after your race is nerfed and your opponent's race is buffed. Any sort of viability mech may have once had at any point in Wings of Liberty was shattered by 3 significant patch changes. 1. The nerf to Blue Flame Hellions: removes any cost effective counter mech has for Zealots with charge especially when upgraded. 2. The Thor energy: self explanatory 3. The Forge Upgrade cost reduction: Mech already has a ridiculous time trying to keep up with upgrades, trying to keep up with upgrades that are out cheaper than ever is just a nightmare. There are some builds that can be used with mech in an "all in" type situation and those builds still work, but that doesn't mean that mech itself is a viable standard playstyle it just means that mech can be used in an all in and succeed. Contrary to popular belief, not every Terran wants to base his entire playstyle around all ins, what's more the major talking point right now is about TvP in the late game where the conversation right now is that the late game favors Protoss. The rest of the game isn't really being discussed right now, the conversation is entirely focused around the late game. Mech has no presence in the late game, and probably won't have one ever. It's too expensive to field, too expensive to upgrade, too slow to produce, and isn't nearly cost effective enough to make up for those weaknesses. I still don't think the match up favors Protoss at the moment. But trying to tell Terrans to use mech is just an argument based on theorycraft and nothing else. I encourage any player that doesn't believe otherwise to try it and prove me wrong. Don't forget the siege tank damage nerf against light units. That alone made tanks almost useless against anything but stalkers and sentries.
exactly. It's the damage modifier that killed mech in tvp. Everything else could be dealt with as long as you could rely on tanks as the backbone of your army. I remember in the beta when it was starting to look like ghost/tank was going to be the way to play tvp.. and that began to fade even as early as when they changed tanks from 60 damage to 50, and at that point the frailty and food cost of the tank made it a less appealing unit compared to marauders. The damage modifier was just the final nail in the coffin.
I really don't know how blizzard would go about fixing mech in tvp, not that I think they actually want to. Maybe an armory level tvp specific upgrade for tanks or something..?
|
On December 06 2011 09:27 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:56 K3Nyy wrote:On December 06 2011 07:20 Quotidian wrote:
I don't like this attitude. I'm not going to say it's viable, but mech is hardly ever experimented. 1-1-1 is a bio/mech push and it is the most powerful push Terran can do. Lately, MVP and Puma have been doing 2 base 1-1-1 as well. Maybe it isn't viable in long games, maybe you can only use it in timing pushes, but to say it's completely useless after not seeing a single mech game (besides MC vs Jinro, the only game I can think of) is the wrong way to approach things. This just isn't true. There has been a ton of attempts at getting mech to work.. and beyond that we have Goody to show us how it really, really doesn't work, if you want a current example. I don't think there has been "a ton of attempts." I have seen Carriers more often in tournaments than pure mech TvP. Mentioning Goody of why mech doesn't work is a great example, however, he's not really one of more accomplished progamers (not to take anything away from him) and he's one person out of hundreds of top players. Oh, but there have been a ton of attempts despite what you think. There was a long period when a lot of the people on the strategy forum here were discussing and trying develop mech, and you can be sure that if people here tried to figure it out, the pros have at one point too. The reason you don't see mech much in tournaments is that it only takes a few practice games to understand that playing mech (beyond some gimmicky all-in) is way too risky and too easily countered to be viable in a tournament setting. I remember there was a time when there was a small surge of Korean replays where people were trying mech, and ultimately failing. I remember MVP going mech in the GSL and it failing. I remember Jinro beating MC with mech and then never playing mech again. Has Jinro ever officially stated why he abandoned that style by the way? Show nested quote +I didn't see that Jjakji vs Oz game so I can't really comment on that, but since Jjakji won that game, shouldn't we be more optimistic of new ideas instead of instantly shooting them down? If people were really innovating mech and showcased in a few games and it failed horribly, then you can say they tried and it really isn't viable, but there's been literally no such games. Jjakji has at no point in recent history been playing "mech". Vs Puzzle, he did a nice tank/bunker contain into MMM (surprise surprise) on Eye of the Storm. The contain evaporated once charge finished, proving that tanks have very limited window of opportunity in tvp. And he's done a 2 base thor/banshee build. In those kinds of games, it's the cloaked banshees that are the winning units. Thors are essentially a waste of resources and supply, because marine/marauder and vikings to kill observers will do the same job better (you can micro against storm/colossi, for instance). I didn't see the Jjakji vs Oz series, but from what I could gather from the live reports, he didn't do the thor/banshee build in that series - correct me if I'm wrong though Show nested quote +Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that there should be more attempts of trying mech, especially since every game I seen with mech, mech ends up winning. There's no reason to be pessimistic. I really doubt you've seen that many mech tvps then. The game has been out for a while now - if mech worked in their current state, people would use them, especially in the late game. It has nothing to do with pessimism, it's just the way the match up is designed.
There hasn't been much that I recall but all the TvPs I've seen with mech, it worked. Thorzain vs MC, Jinro vs MC and I caught the end to some guy vs Goody (all I can remember that it was on Crossfire and the end was stalkers blinking onto of a bunch of tanks)
Anyway, I'm not arguing about the viability of mech in TvP, obviously if the whole forum argues against it, there must be a reason for it. All I'm just saying is keep an open mind.
|
If IM_MVP quits Starcraft 2 will Terran get buffed?
|
On December 06 2011 12:27 Tektos wrote:
If IM_MVP quits Starcraft 2 will Terran get buffed?
What about the SlayerS Terrans? 
|
On December 06 2011 12:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 12:27 Tektos wrote:
If IM_MVP quits Starcraft 2 will Terran get buffed? What about the SlayerS Terrans?
Well, you can't nerf TvT
|
Protoss ahead of everyone in korea, awww yea!
|
On December 06 2011 11:59 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 09:27 Quotidian wrote:On December 06 2011 08:56 K3Nyy wrote:On December 06 2011 07:20 Quotidian wrote:
I don't like this attitude. I'm not going to say it's viable, but mech is hardly ever experimented. 1-1-1 is a bio/mech push and it is the most powerful push Terran can do. Lately, MVP and Puma have been doing 2 base 1-1-1 as well. Maybe it isn't viable in long games, maybe you can only use it in timing pushes, but to say it's completely useless after not seeing a single mech game (besides MC vs Jinro, the only game I can think of) is the wrong way to approach things. This just isn't true. There has been a ton of attempts at getting mech to work.. and beyond that we have Goody to show us how it really, really doesn't work, if you want a current example. I don't think there has been "a ton of attempts." I have seen Carriers more often in tournaments than pure mech TvP. Mentioning Goody of why mech doesn't work is a great example, however, he's not really one of more accomplished progamers (not to take anything away from him) and he's one person out of hundreds of top players. Oh, but there have been a ton of attempts despite what you think. There was a long period when a lot of the people on the strategy forum here were discussing and trying develop mech, and you can be sure that if people here tried to figure it out, the pros have at one point too. The reason you don't see mech much in tournaments is that it only takes a few practice games to understand that playing mech (beyond some gimmicky all-in) is way too risky and too easily countered to be viable in a tournament setting. I remember there was a time when there was a small surge of Korean replays where people were trying mech, and ultimately failing. I remember MVP going mech in the GSL and it failing. I remember Jinro beating MC with mech and then never playing mech again. Has Jinro ever officially stated why he abandoned that style by the way? I didn't see that Jjakji vs Oz game so I can't really comment on that, but since Jjakji won that game, shouldn't we be more optimistic of new ideas instead of instantly shooting them down? If people were really innovating mech and showcased in a few games and it failed horribly, then you can say they tried and it really isn't viable, but there's been literally no such games. Jjakji has at no point in recent history been playing "mech". Vs Puzzle, he did a nice tank/bunker contain into MMM (surprise surprise) on Eye of the Storm. The contain evaporated once charge finished, proving that tanks have very limited window of opportunity in tvp. And he's done a 2 base thor/banshee build. In those kinds of games, it's the cloaked banshees that are the winning units. Thors are essentially a waste of resources and supply, because marine/marauder and vikings to kill observers will do the same job better (you can micro against storm/colossi, for instance). I didn't see the Jjakji vs Oz series, but from what I could gather from the live reports, he didn't do the thor/banshee build in that series - correct me if I'm wrong though Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that there should be more attempts of trying mech, especially since every game I seen with mech, mech ends up winning. There's no reason to be pessimistic. I really doubt you've seen that many mech tvps then. The game has been out for a while now - if mech worked in their current state, people would use them, especially in the late game. It has nothing to do with pessimism, it's just the way the match up is designed. There hasn't been much that I recall but all the TvPs I've seen with mech, it worked. Thorzain vs MC, Jinro vs MC and I caught the end to some guy vs Goody (all I can remember that it was on Crossfire and the end was stalkers blinking onto of a bunch of tanks) Anyway, I'm not arguing about the viability of mech in TvP, obviously if the whole forum argues against it, there must be a reason for it. All I'm just saying is keep an open mind.
It's really easy to lay back and "keep an open mind," waiting for a genius Terran to innovate mech or for Blizzard to patch it, only point to that Terran and say, "See? Viable!" For all practical purposes, Mech in TvP is simply inferior to bio, other than for a cheap gimmicky win in a series. Until a drastic shift in the meta game, a patch, or an amazing Terran, bio is just way; way better right now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
