EPT[Nov] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 19
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
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xlava
United States676 Posts
On December 05 2011 20:17 StiX wrote: Does anyone thinks its funny that in: PvT Protoss has the better end ZvT Terran has the better end ZvP Zerg has the better end ? Eh, tbh the game is looking more and more balanced all around. But finally for the first time in so long Protoss can beat Terran  | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Well isn't 95% or so of your army invested in barracks and gateway units? That's obviously the biggest chunk of your resources. If you're referring to mech, then sure. That's why Terran doesn't go mech, in the same way that Protoss air isn't cost-efficient in PvT so Protoss doesn't make air. But can you say that banshees, vikings, and medivacs can't be cost-efficient? Those are the other units used in TvP (although far fewer than the barracks units). I feel like those would come down to micro and how you use them with harrassment. My point, however, was that he ignored any Protoss cons and Terrans pros, and gave a very one-sided argument. Jjikjaki's cloak thor build is the future. With the insane range nad low health of observers if it can be transitioned to it will roll everything. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44257 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:21 Sabu113 wrote: Jjikjaki's cloak thor build is the future. With the insane range nad low health of observers if it can be transitioned to it will roll everything. That reminds me of phoenix/ dt/ observer in PvP, except actually viable | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
 hellions are ok-ish. good for doing some burst damage vs zealots, like little mech banelings. do damage, tank a bit of damage and then die. maybe 2 shots off. thors ... just get in the way lategame. their AA would be useful vs mass pheonix (trololololol) but again you sacrafice the strength of the bioball if you put them on the field. Great at killing stalkers and breaking FF but lategame it's zealots and colossus doing the big damage. Stalkers are just there to shoot vikings and to blink after a defeated army. scouting with the factory is probably the most constructive use it can be put to after the obligatory 1-1-1 or 4 hellion drop is out of the way. Air is another matter imho. Once those attack upgrades are done getting some banshees could add a LOT of dps to late game army. Ravens are also pretty good. Ravens with banshees are insanly good unless protoss have VR. a pure gateway robo army can only shoot up with sentry (no dps), stalker (pdd), archon(short range, fat, slow) and HT (but as someone said, spending a banshee or raven to stop your bioball getting stormed seems like a good deal to me) | ||
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ooozer
Germany231 Posts
Your acting like it's now a shitton of micro for terran to win, while protoss a-moves. pre-patch, there was almost never such things as 'decent trades'. EMP hit, stim, a-move, win, or EMP didn't hit, stim, kite, run away. EMP nerf's been handled like the upgrade buff of toss. it's a psychological problem. toss go for double forge after a little buff, terran don't go for the blanket-emp style because of the minor nerf. the critical mass of protoss armys in pvz is myth imo. there are some zerg composition protoss balls could kill 3 times in a row, but in order to fight such a zerg, a protss has to play like hero: lots of harass, agression, relativly early third. protoss needs to command the zerg, forcing them into certain weak composition. true zerg deathballs, speaking of shittons of blords, infestors, lings + X trade better against the ideal protoss deathball, thus forcing gimmicky stuff like archon toilets to deal with exceptional amounts of blords. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:21 Sabu113 wrote: Jjikjaki's cloak thor build is the future. With the insane range nad low health of observers if it can be transitioned to it will roll everything. you mean the past -- Painuser was doing it ages ago. It didn't change the match up then, it won't change it now. The last time thors were actually good in tvp was in TSL 3 when Thorzain used them - right before Blizzard decided they "didn't want" thors "massed" in the match up, because they "obscure" other units. Amazing reasoning from David Kim there. What won JJakji that games was the banshee harass coupled with Puzzle's failed DT rush. He would've been better off going for MMM + banshee harass, because the thors disappeared once the armies engaged. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On December 05 2011 19:46 Ktk wrote: Hey look the game is balanced! I don't see how this proves that the game is balanced. This year the TvP win rate has only been higher than the current PvT win rate at one point and at that point, the amount of balance whine coming from Protoss players prompted a major nerf for Terran. Frankly I've never been one to point at charts to prove "balance" (mainly because the game is still young and undiscovered in many ways), but in this instance I REALLY fail to see how these charts proves balance. If anything, this chart proves that PvT is a broken match-up in favor of the Protoss players (at least when Terran had those numbers it was broken). I think it's interesting to see these numbers, but I'm not certainly sure that they mean much of anything due to the relative age of the game, but they certainly don't show that the game (with the current metagame) is balanced. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:39 Quotidian wrote: you mean the past -- Painuser was doing it ages ago. It didn't change the match up then, it won't change it now. It is old, but at the same time seeing a Korean do it is pretty big. GoOdy did mech for a long time and--not to bash on GoOdy--his mech style is not nearly as refined as that of Mvp or other top Korean mech-Terrans. The more we see of the Koreans playing a certain style the more we'll see how effective it is. | ||
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acidbean
Germany287 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:19 HolyArrow wrote: Finally. It's nice to see that the Terran bar is no longer the highest one. I wish they still released Korean-only data, though. It's pretty widely accepted that Korean Ts are way ahead of their international counterparts, so I'd like to see how thing are faring solely at the Korean level. I dont think it was already posted in this thread, so here we go: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OcoyL.png) Colorblind version Source | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
This just isn't true. There has been a ton of attempts at getting mech to work.. and beyond that we have Goody to show us how it really, really doesn't work, if you want a current example. I don't think there has been "a ton of attempts." I have seen Carriers more often in tournaments than pure mech TvP. Mentioning Goody of why mech doesn't work is a great example, however, he's not really one of more accomplished progamers (not to take anything away from him) and he's one person out of hundreds of top players. I didn't see that Jjakji vs Oz game so I can't really comment on that, but since Jjakji won that game, shouldn't we be more optimistic of new ideas instead of instantly shooting them down? If people were really innovating mech and showcased in a few games and it failed horribly, then you can say they tried and it really isn't viable, but there's been literally no such games. Actually, I just remembered while typing this post of the game between Thorzain vs MC, where mech beat the standard Protoss army despite it being scouted. Then again, Thors got nerfed after that. ><" Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that there should be more attempts of trying mech, especially since every game I seen with mech, mech ends up winning. There's no reason to be pessimistic. | ||
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hasuterrans
United States614 Posts
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ooozer
Germany231 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 06 2011 05:53 pPingu wrote: Protoss doing well in korea, quite the same for pvt Don't know what to think about tvz, some zergs are doing really well in zvt Yeah it looks like protoss had a break through in the last month. We will see how long it lasts before the terrans crack what the protoss are doing and adjust their play. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:58 ooozer wrote: ZvT in korea is so lol. Yeah it feels like the most balanced match up (imo) but korean terrans just so gosu and with more I think thats why the win % favors terran so heavily. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:43 The Final Boss wrote: I don't see how this proves that the game is balanced. This year the TvP win rate has only been higher than the current PvT win rate at one point and at that point, the amount of balance whine coming from Protoss players prompted a major nerf for Terran. Frankly I've never been one to point at charts to prove "balance" (mainly because the game is still young and undiscovered in many ways), but in this instance I REALLY fail to see how these charts proves balance. If anything, this chart proves that PvT is a broken match-up in favor of the Protoss players (at least when Terran had those numbers it was broken). I think it's interesting to see these numbers, but I'm not certainly sure that they mean much of anything due to the relative age of the game, but they certainly don't show that the game (with the current metagame) is balanced. Sarcasm on the internet really sucks. OT: Interesting to see how the matchup graphs from Korea compare with the rest of the world... And also that in the matchups, P>T, T>Z, Z>P | ||
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sechkie
United States334 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:43 The Final Boss wrote: I don't see how this proves that the game is balanced. This year the TvP win rate has only been higher than the current PvT win rate at one point and at that point, the amount of balance whine coming from Protoss players prompted a major nerf for Terran. Frankly I've never been one to point at charts to prove "balance" (mainly because the game is still young and undiscovered in many ways), but in this instance I REALLY fail to see how these charts proves balance. If anything, this chart proves that PvT is a broken match-up in favor of the Protoss players (at least when Terran had those numbers it was broken). I think it's interesting to see these numbers, but I'm not certainly sure that they mean much of anything due to the relative age of the game, but they certainly don't show that the game (with the current metagame) is balanced. Have you even seen the graphs? Terran has had multiple different times of being up at 55% winrate in the matchup sometimes going up to over 60%. Do you honestly believe that the matchup then was just as balanced as the game is now? and if the chart would now prove that pvt is broken in favor of protoss, why does it not show that previously pvt was broken (even worse) in favor of terran? | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On December 06 2011 08:54 acidbean wrote: I dont think it was already posted in this thread, so here we go: Colorblind version Source Thanks! | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On December 06 2011 06:43 bikefrog wrote: It hasn't been tested properly. Pro's focus on current effective strategies rather than figuring out new ones. Variety in TvT and TvZ is fine. Maybe that's why you're doing so good in the matchup to begin with? I barely ever see Hellion harrass in Diamond League for example. The Raven is extremely good against Stalkers, but still you rarely ever see Terran utilize them. Get a few Marauders and you can still kite chargelots with proper micro fyi. Mech has been tested in TvP. Point is, it sucks. What does diamond league hellion harras have to do with anything? I agree about the ravens partially, but they aren't really that good, because HT's easily feedback ravens, and can feedback the point defese drone just as easily. I don't really understand what the last point means, since everyone already knows that | ||
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