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Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 06 2011 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 21:15 storywriter wrote:On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. .... People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU. Terran is a hard race. Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied. Terran is by no means an easy race to play (except for mules) but I feel that saying you can't use tier 3 units because of feedback is going a little too far. It's not like archons and HTs don't see any use because of EMP. I'm still waiting for terrans to start adding in raven+banshee in late game with their excess gas. This combination looks incredibly powerful for a number of reasons. 1. ravens allow sniping of observers. 2. ravens counter both phoenixes and stalkers with PDD. 3. terran already gets ship attack upgrades and they scale super well on banshees. Armour doesn't matter as much thanks to PDD. While I acknowledge that feedback counters both units, PDD can always be cast pre-emptively, ghosts can take out HTs and as a last resort, banshees can burn energy. In worst case scenario, the feedbacked banshee/raven has most likely prevented a storm. This will of course require immensely difficult micro from the terran but I feel like that's what SC has always been about: beating the metagame by getting better (even if it feels like you have to play better than your opponent). Feedback is only one of like 10 reasons why Terran tier 3 units suck in TvP. There's a reason Terrans are getting the battle hellion and the Warhound in HOTS. There's a reason Blizz is making an honest effort to make mech viable in TvP, and that reason is that in Wings of Liberty, Bio is all Terran has against Protoss in the late game. That's just how it is. Protoss players that are trying to claim that Terrans at some point in this version of SC2 can stop relying on Bio units are delusional, I'm not trying to make a claim that TvP even favors Protoss at this point in time because I don't think it does, but all of this counter-argument of "use something other than MMMGV and you'll be ok" is just stupid.
I think bio is really the best way to tvp too, but I've always wondered if maybe just adding 2-3 tanks in the mid-late game compo could be usefull, just to take some shots on the zealots when they attack, prevent the stalker from getting too close to the terran army and so protect the vikings, or just focus fire the colossus or the ht.
I would love to have some feedback on this
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On December 06 2011 07:01 Jinx... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:33 Sandermatt wrote:On December 06 2011 06:30 Jinx... wrote:
I am confused. Does equal stats really mean that all players, playing equal opponents and have the same winrates mean
the game is ballanced? It does but that means that all players have around the same skill. Looks like blizzard is balancing
players instead, but this is not a rant and the game seems quite balanced now.Was just pondering. Well, you cannot really compare the skill of the players of the different races. There is just little reason to assume that one race is chosen by inferior players more frequently. So the best assumption is that there is equal talent in all races and balance the game in a way that the winrates average at 50%. I get that, but an assumption is an assumption. We can assume that players from one race are terrible and that the race is totaly op or that all players are quite the same skill level. So givin nov 2011, I just find it strange all that races have about 1% difference, Becauce all players are not of the same skill level.So what im trying to say is the game can be balanced and have zerg win 75% of the games for example. It just seems the game is tweaked, you know what i mean?
It could be possbile if you draw from a small sample size, which means that you either
a.) have too few games played (example: only 20 games have been played in a month and 10 of these included MVP winning 8 of them ---> strong bias)
or
b.)that you have too few different players (example: there are 400 games played in total but only by 3 different players: MVP, Machine, Incontrol ---> strong bias due to skill differences)
However with almost 1k games played across all kinds of players, the effect of players with exceptional skill diminishes.
I dare to say that as of now the overall stats are very likely to indicate the game is balanced, yet PvT and PvZ show that as of now these MUs are problematic.
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Well I'm not going to debate balance, so(edit:wrong preposition) HELL YA SWARM
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On December 06 2011 07:08 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 05 2011 21:15 storywriter wrote:On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. .... People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU. Terran is a hard race. Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied. Terran is by no means an easy race to play (except for mules) but I feel that saying you can't use tier 3 units because of feedback is going a little too far. It's not like archons and HTs don't see any use because of EMP. I'm still waiting for terrans to start adding in raven+banshee in late game with their excess gas. This combination looks incredibly powerful for a number of reasons. 1. ravens allow sniping of observers. 2. ravens counter both phoenixes and stalkers with PDD. 3. terran already gets ship attack upgrades and they scale super well on banshees. Armour doesn't matter as much thanks to PDD. While I acknowledge that feedback counters both units, PDD can always be cast pre-emptively, ghosts can take out HTs and as a last resort, banshees can burn energy. In worst case scenario, the feedbacked banshee/raven has most likely prevented a storm. This will of course require immensely difficult micro from the terran but I feel like that's what SC has always been about: beating the metagame by getting better (even if it feels like you have to play better than your opponent). Feedback is only one of like 10 reasons why Terran tier 3 units suck in TvP. There's a reason Terrans are getting the battle hellion and the Warhound in HOTS. There's a reason Blizz is making an honest effort to make mech viable in TvP, and that reason is that in Wings of Liberty, Bio is all Terran has against Protoss in the late game. That's just how it is. Protoss players that are trying to claim that Terrans at some point in this version of SC2 can stop relying on Bio units are delusional, I'm not trying to make a claim that TvP even favors Protoss at this point in time because I don't think it does, but all of this counter-argument of "use something other than MMMGV and you'll be ok" is just stupid. I think bio is really the best way to tvp too, but I've always wondered if maybe just adding 2-3 tanks in the mid-late game compo could be usefull, just to take some shots on the zealots when they attack, prevent the stalker from getting too close to the terran army and so protect the vikings, or just focus fire the colossus or the ht. I would love to have some feedback on this
would also be interested.
unseiged tanks have 7 range and do pretty high DPS too. give they hav ea couple more range as a buffer, they could probably kite a little bit with the bio and then tank (pun) some damage awya from the infantry
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On December 06 2011 07:08 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 05 2011 21:15 storywriter wrote:On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. .... People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU. Terran is a hard race. Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied. Terran is by no means an easy race to play (except for mules) but I feel that saying you can't use tier 3 units because of feedback is going a little too far. It's not like archons and HTs don't see any use because of EMP. I'm still waiting for terrans to start adding in raven+banshee in late game with their excess gas. This combination looks incredibly powerful for a number of reasons. 1. ravens allow sniping of observers. 2. ravens counter both phoenixes and stalkers with PDD. 3. terran already gets ship attack upgrades and they scale super well on banshees. Armour doesn't matter as much thanks to PDD. While I acknowledge that feedback counters both units, PDD can always be cast pre-emptively, ghosts can take out HTs and as a last resort, banshees can burn energy. In worst case scenario, the feedbacked banshee/raven has most likely prevented a storm. This will of course require immensely difficult micro from the terran but I feel like that's what SC has always been about: beating the metagame by getting better (even if it feels like you have to play better than your opponent). Feedback is only one of like 10 reasons why Terran tier 3 units suck in TvP. There's a reason Terrans are getting the battle hellion and the Warhound in HOTS. There's a reason Blizz is making an honest effort to make mech viable in TvP, and that reason is that in Wings of Liberty, Bio is all Terran has against Protoss in the late game. That's just how it is. Protoss players that are trying to claim that Terrans at some point in this version of SC2 can stop relying on Bio units are delusional, I'm not trying to make a claim that TvP even favors Protoss at this point in time because I don't think it does, but all of this counter-argument of "use something other than MMMGV and you'll be ok" is just stupid. I think bio is really the best way to tvp too, but I've always wondered if maybe just adding 2-3 tanks in the mid-late game compo could be usefull, just to take some shots on the zealots when they attack, prevent the stalker from getting too close to the terran army and so protect the vikings, or just focus fire the colossus or the ht. I would love to have some feedback on this
I just don't think you can do that because of chargelots. All of what you're saying is fine and makes sense, but ultimately I think it is not practical. Chargelots require terran to kite their bio like crazy because you cant have them rip your army apart, while taking stalker hits, storms and colo beams. Since you have to kite the chargelots with your bio, it would leave your tanks exposed and would ultimately defeat the purpose of bringing them along in the first place. You're just better off massing MM.. unfortunately :-(
We've seen good timing pushes off of two bases with marine tank and some air, but as someone above mentioned, you these pushes do bad later on if massive amounts of dmg are not done to the toss during the actual timing attack.
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On December 06 2011 06:35 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:32 bikefrog wrote:
I think TvP is fine atm. The close series between HerO and PuMa are a good example of that imo. I feel like Terran are a bit lazy when it comes to ingenuity and variety as of late. Stuck in the old ways while Protoss play is evolving more. Guessing 51/49 in T's favour for desember. Terran isn't lazy, all you need to do is look at the wide variety of TvT and TvZ (you know, the two most refined and technical matchups in the game) builds in place to see that Terrans do a great deal of experimentation. The problem with TvP is that anything besides MMM/V/G simply does not work. All we can do is work on getting better and better with the bio ball because mech is essentially useless vs Protoss.
Great point.
I'm sure we'll see plenty of new openers and such, and maybe even things that stretch a bit into the mid game, but every build will have to result in MMM eventually
On December 06 2011 06:46 Iamyournoob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:35 forsooth wrote:On December 06 2011 06:32 bikefrog wrote:
I think TvP is fine atm. The close series between HerO and PuMa are a good example of that imo. I feel like Terran are a bit lazy when it comes to ingenuity and variety as of late. Stuck in the old ways while Protoss play is evolving more. Guessing 51/49 in T's favour for desember. Terran isn't lazy, all you need to do is look at the wide variety of TvT and TvZ (you know, the two most refined and technical matchups in the game) builds in place to see that Terrans do a great deal of experimentation. The problem with TvP is that anything besides MMM/V/G simply does not work. All we can do is work on getting better and better with the bio ball because mech is essentially useless vs Protoss. We heard Protosses say that they had tried everything and could not come up with anything to help improve their situation. Then a soft buff of WPs and Immortals came, Protosses (re-) discovered their potential and it seems as if it helped to some degree. I would not deny that lower upgrade costs and the EMP nerf further helped Protoss, but looking at how ridiculously strong EMP was against Protoss (and it still is) I believe it to be justified. If it was too much, time will tell. But if it turns out that balance is now in favour of Toss, then a.) Terrans will have to innovate b.) Blizzard will give minor buffs to Terran c.) both will happen in combination Oh and one thing Toss players had to "accept" after they got nerfed and started complaining, I will now throw out for everyone complaining about P being OP: When some race dominated another, and buffs and play style innovation overcome this, the pendulum swings back a bit further, In other words: Let us see for a bit how things are going to work out...
In what universe was the Warp prism buff "soft"? It's now the most rebust dropship in the game
Just take a look at the history of nerfs for tvp specifically. Every time a terran pro does something creative and unorthodox, that strategy gets removed from the game or it ultimately proves to be ineffectual as protoss players learn how to deal with it (the small pure air tvp trend is an example of that - it took all of two days before every protoss I faced on the ladder got enough air-to-air to kill the build, which forces terran to transition into.. you guessed it-- mmm). Thorzain's thor lategame build being the prime example, and that strategy hadn't even permeated the metagame at the time of the nerf and protoss players didn't even have any experience dealing with it. For some really weird reason Blizzard have decided that MMM is the only way to play tvp. I really don't get why.
On December 06 2011 06:54 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:35 forsooth wrote:On December 06 2011 06:32 bikefrog wrote:
I think TvP is fine atm. The close series between HerO and PuMa are a good example of that imo. I feel like Terran are a bit lazy when it comes to ingenuity and variety as of late. Stuck in the old ways while Protoss play is evolving more. Guessing 51/49 in T's favour for desember. Terran isn't lazy, all you need to do is look at the wide variety of TvT and TvZ (you know, the two most refined and technical matchups in the game) builds in place to see that Terrans do a great deal of experimentation. The problem with TvP is that anything besides MMM/V/G simply does not work. All we can do is work on getting better and better with the bio ball because mech is essentially useless vs Protoss. I don't like this attitude. I'm not going to say it's viable, but mech is hardly ever experimented. 1-1-1 is a bio/mech push and it is the most powerful push Terran can do. Lately, MVP and Puma have been doing 2 base 1-1-1 as well. Maybe it isn't viable in long games, maybe you can only use it in timing pushes, but to say it's completely useless after not seeing a single mech game (besides MC vs Jinro, the only game I can think of) is the wrong way to approach things.
This just isn't true. There has been a ton of attempts at getting mech to work.. and beyond that we have Goody to show us how it really, really doesn't work, if you want a current example.
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this is just a result of Protoss learning how to play, at last
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On December 06 2011 07:08 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 05 2011 21:15 storywriter wrote:On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. .... People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU. Terran is a hard race. Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied. Terran is by no means an easy race to play (except for mules) but I feel that saying you can't use tier 3 units because of feedback is going a little too far. It's not like archons and HTs don't see any use because of EMP. I'm still waiting for terrans to start adding in raven+banshee in late game with their excess gas. This combination looks incredibly powerful for a number of reasons. 1. ravens allow sniping of observers. 2. ravens counter both phoenixes and stalkers with PDD. 3. terran already gets ship attack upgrades and they scale super well on banshees. Armour doesn't matter as much thanks to PDD. While I acknowledge that feedback counters both units, PDD can always be cast pre-emptively, ghosts can take out HTs and as a last resort, banshees can burn energy. In worst case scenario, the feedbacked banshee/raven has most likely prevented a storm. This will of course require immensely difficult micro from the terran but I feel like that's what SC has always been about: beating the metagame by getting better (even if it feels like you have to play better than your opponent). Feedback is only one of like 10 reasons why Terran tier 3 units suck in TvP. There's a reason Terrans are getting the battle hellion and the Warhound in HOTS. There's a reason Blizz is making an honest effort to make mech viable in TvP, and that reason is that in Wings of Liberty, Bio is all Terran has against Protoss in the late game. That's just how it is. Protoss players that are trying to claim that Terrans at some point in this version of SC2 can stop relying on Bio units are delusional, I'm not trying to make a claim that TvP even favors Protoss at this point in time because I don't think it does, but all of this counter-argument of "use something other than MMMGV and you'll be ok" is just stupid. I think bio is really the best way to tvp too, but I've always wondered if maybe just adding 2-3 tanks in the mid-late game compo could be usefull, just to take some shots on the zealots when they attack, prevent the stalker from getting too close to the terran army and so protect the vikings, or just focus fire the colossus or the ht. I would love to have some feedback on this
0/0 tanks aren't worth their cost in resources in the late game.
Unlike Protoss, Terrans have to upgrade their mech and bio ground units separately, this is why bio/mech strategies are almost always entirely focused around early/mid game timing attacks that are or close to all in in nature.
In order for Terrans to mix in mech units with their units in the late game they have to either use 0/0 mech units or spend time and resources upgrading the mech units in addition to their bio units throughout the course of the game, both options are equally inefficient.
The reason the starport units are useful in the late game is two-fold. First, Medivacs don't require upgrades at all because they are simply support units, and vikings only require ship weapon upgrades. Secondly, Medivacs and Vikings can be made from a Reactored Starport which cuts down drastically on their production cost as opposed to Siege Tanks/Thors which can only be made from a factory with a Tech Lab.
In summary, a late game Terran army is already producing units from Barracks and Starports and are already upgrading from 3 separate structures at once, adding in factory units to this is just a lot more expensive than I think a lot of people realize when they take into consideration the cost inefficiency of the units when they are not upgraded.
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On December 06 2011 07:10 Iamyournoob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:01 Jinx... wrote:On December 06 2011 06:33 Sandermatt wrote:On December 06 2011 06:30 Jinx... wrote:
I am confused. Does equal stats really mean that all players, playing equal opponents and have the same winrates mean
the game is ballanced? It does but that means that all players have around the same skill. Looks like blizzard is balancing
players instead, but this is not a rant and the game seems quite balanced now.Was just pondering. Well, you cannot really compare the skill of the players of the different races. There is just little reason to assume that one race is chosen by inferior players more frequently. So the best assumption is that there is equal talent in all races and balance the game in a way that the winrates average at 50%. I get that, but an assumption is an assumption. We can assume that players from one race are terrible and that the race is totaly op or that all players are quite the same skill level. So givin nov 2011, I just find it strange all that races have about 1% difference, Becauce all players are not of the same skill level.So what im trying to say is the game can be balanced and have zerg win 75% of the games for example. It just seems the game is tweaked, you know what i mean? It could be possbile if you draw from a small sample size, which means that you either a.) have too few games played (example: only 20 games have been played in a month and 10 of these included MVP winning 8 of them ---> strong bias) or b.)that you have too few different players (example: there are 400 games played in total but only by 3 different players: MVP, Machine, Incontrol ---> strong bias due to skill differences) However with almost 1k games played across all kinds of players, the effect of players with exceptional skill diminishes. I dare to say that as of now the overall stats are very likely to indicate the game is balanced, yet PvT and PvZ show that as of now these MUs are problematic.
You are right, such a large player base complicate me to reason the way i am.
It just seem unlikely to have such a close winrate, but it is not impossible.
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Theres no point in commentating about balance right now. We'll see what happens. This is probably a step in the right direction for TvP. If this trend continues for 3 or more moths (which I think it will), then perhaps we will see a Terran buff, but it would have to be one that doesnt ruin TvZ.
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On December 06 2011 06:40 DMII wrote:
Could you please adjust the scale to really make what people would normally interpret as 0% be 0% and not 40% ? That would solve a lot of the whining, because it wouldn't blow up moderate differences to huge ones.
This is a perfect example of how statistics can lie.
glad to see sc2 approaching balance :D
The statistics aren't lying.
People just don't know how to read.
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Protoss upgrades are cheaper than terran upgrades. Protoss can chrono their upgrades. Terran need 3 upgrades (range, armor, air weapons), protoss need 2. All in all, protoss save something like 600/600 in upgrades that terran needs, plus they also have chrono so they can never be behind in upgrades. That's why the matchup is so hard ATM
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On December 06 2011 07:08 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 05 2011 21:15 storywriter wrote:On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. .... People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU. Terran is a hard race. Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied. Terran is by no means an easy race to play (except for mules) but I feel that saying you can't use tier 3 units because of feedback is going a little too far. It's not like archons and HTs don't see any use because of EMP. I'm still waiting for terrans to start adding in raven+banshee in late game with their excess gas. This combination looks incredibly powerful for a number of reasons. 1. ravens allow sniping of observers. 2. ravens counter both phoenixes and stalkers with PDD. 3. terran already gets ship attack upgrades and they scale super well on banshees. Armour doesn't matter as much thanks to PDD. While I acknowledge that feedback counters both units, PDD can always be cast pre-emptively, ghosts can take out HTs and as a last resort, banshees can burn energy. In worst case scenario, the feedbacked banshee/raven has most likely prevented a storm. This will of course require immensely difficult micro from the terran but I feel like that's what SC has always been about: beating the metagame by getting better (even if it feels like you have to play better than your opponent). Feedback is only one of like 10 reasons why Terran tier 3 units suck in TvP. There's a reason Terrans are getting the battle hellion and the Warhound in HOTS. There's a reason Blizz is making an honest effort to make mech viable in TvP, and that reason is that in Wings of Liberty, Bio is all Terran has against Protoss in the late game. That's just how it is. Protoss players that are trying to claim that Terrans at some point in this version of SC2 can stop relying on Bio units are delusional, I'm not trying to make a claim that TvP even favors Protoss at this point in time because I don't think it does, but all of this counter-argument of "use something other than MMMGV and you'll be ok" is just stupid. I think bio is really the best way to tvp too, but I've always wondered if maybe just adding 2-3 tanks in the mid-late game compo could be usefull, just to take some shots on the zealots when they attack, prevent the stalker from getting too close to the terran army and so protect the vikings, or just focus fire the colossus or the ht. I would love to have some feedback on this
It's a thought, but at the expense of what? Ghosts, medivacs? Terran's gas is pretty well spoken for in those stages. Huge numbers of ghosts in conjunction with medivac counts are what give terran it's finishing power in the lategame, so where is the gas for tanks and supplementary factories supposed to come from?
Not directed at you but at P feedback in general:
As a protoss player, I was pretty insulted when terrans tried to tell me how to play my race when we were getting our asses handed to us in this match up. I'm certainly not going to return the favor when the shoe is on the other foot, though I don't think t is losing this match-up because of what's changed this month-
"One robin does not make for spring."
Please let's not repeat past balance thread trends and sit around telling other players how to innovate with their race when the only experience we have is with our own, and certainly don't explain to other people how playing this or that race is easy. The hardest parts of playing starcraft have nothing to do with individual races.
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BOOM!
DOWN
GOES
TERRAN!
"King Leonidas: The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant, that few stood against many, and before this battle was over, even a god-king can bleed. "
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On December 06 2011 07:37 unSpeake wrote:
Protoss upgrades are cheaper than terran upgrades. Protoss can chrono their upgrades. Terran need 3 upgrades (range, armor, air weapons), protoss need 2. All in all, protoss save something like 600/600 in upgrades that terran needs, plus they also have chrono so they can never be behind in upgrades. That's why the matchup is so hard ATM
There are three Protoss upgrades in a forge, buddy. If you don't get one of the two defensive ones (armor vs. shields), then you're essentially only upgrading half a unit's health. And if Protoss is ahead in upgrades, then that certainly doesn't mean Protoss spent 1200 resources fewer than Terran. You can't have it both ways lol.
Also, Terran units are more cost-effective and Terran is the least gas-heavy race in the game and input other biased stuff here, just like you did.
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I was just wondering why all of these images for me, are super large? I can only see 30% of the picture in the OP.. this happens with every other post that has a picture as well. is it a setting that I need to change? i'm using google chrome...
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On December 06 2011 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:37 unSpeake wrote:
Protoss upgrades are cheaper than terran upgrades. Protoss can chrono their upgrades. Terran need 3 upgrades (range, armor, air weapons), protoss need 2. All in all, protoss save something like 600/600 in upgrades that terran needs, plus they also have chrono so they can never be behind in upgrades. That's why the matchup is so hard ATM There are three Protoss upgrades in a forge, buddy. If you don't get one of the two defensive ones (armor vs. shields), then you're essentially only upgrading half a unit's health. And if Protoss is ahead in upgrades, then that certainly doesn't mean Protoss spent 1200 resources fewer than Terran. You can't have it both ways lol. Also, Terran units are more cost-effective and Terran is the least gas-heavy race in the game and input other biased stuff here, just like you did.
Terran barracks units are more cost efficient than Protoss gateway units sure, (with the exception of HTs which can be either extremely cost efficient or extremely cost inefficient.)
However, anything for Terran that doesn't come out of the barracks is not cost efficient at all in TvP.
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Northern Ireland26085 Posts
Seems that TvZ, probably the best matchup in the game in terms of watchability is approaching some semblance of balance. While timing attacks do form a big part of that matchup, I'd argue the success/failure of said pushes isn't game-ending/defining in the same sense that they are in other matchups. This is why it's probably the best to watch, as well as being less volatile than other matchups in a balance sense. TvZ sees much more multi-pronged activity, small groups of units harassing, the spreading of armies and the viability of tier 1/2 units extending into the late game. The standard metagame of TvZ has been largely unchanged for months, the differences are in how that gameplan is executed, and most innovation is divorced from patch balancing.
PvT appears the hardest to balance because that matchup almost always seems to hinge on one big blob of units fighting another, and the success of that battle pretty much settles the game. With that as the case, something like an EMP nerf can really put the matchup in flux. A Terran would previously have been confident with a decent trade vs the deathball instinctively, they know what their force can do. With the EMP nerf that judgement of what will be a game-defining battle is thrown off kilter, from 'with a few decent EMPs and viking control i can take this' to, 'I need genuinely great, well-aimed EMPs and top notch control to win this'. This is further compounded with the metagame shift to dual-forge being an option, to seemingly being the norm in a lot of PvT and that's also posing difficulties
PvZ is similarly difficult to balance because often-times it resorts to if the Protoss can get its deathball up to critical mass and with enough tech that it can deal with a few remaxes on the Zerg side. Changing any of the key components of armies thus has a massive effect, a key example being the tweaking of the infestor really turning the matchup on its head in the past. When Protoss' staple timing pushes were figured out by good Zergs, the matchup totally swung around to the Zerg's favour.
tl:dr. The matchup that is less susceptible to big fluctuations in win% (TvZ imo) is also the matchup that suffers least from deathball v deathball, 200/200 fights deciding the game, and thus patch changes to individual units effect the matchup proportionally less than they would say a PvT. TvZ is the most entertaining matchup because there is more scope for splitting armies, harassing and whatnot. Positioning and other skillsets are super-important. We've also seen a slow trend for zerg figuring out how to deal with a variety of openings without Terran's options being nerfed into the ground. Hellion defences (unless you're Morrow) are far more refined than they were when Slayer's signature build was debuted at MLG for example. Before you claim "oh well blue flame damage got nerfed" that was as much a TvT issue as it was TvZ, and actually didn't affect big red flame pushes from reactored factories.
I also think PvZ can stabilise if more people start to figure out how to play the multi-pronged aggressive style of LiquidHero, or the uber-macro style that SlayersBrown is incorporating, so that's the matchup evolution I'm really looking forward to observing in the coming months
PvT will still be a horrible matchup in perpetuity until both races are able to play a long macro game on an even footing
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On December 06 2011 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:37 unSpeake wrote:
Protoss upgrades are cheaper than terran upgrades. Protoss can chrono their upgrades. Terran need 3 upgrades (range, armor, air weapons), protoss need 2. All in all, protoss save something like 600/600 in upgrades that terran needs, plus they also have chrono so they can never be behind in upgrades. That's why the matchup is so hard ATM There are three Protoss upgrades in a forge, buddy. If you don't get one of the two defensive ones (armor vs. shields), then you're essentially only upgrading half a unit's health. And if Protoss is ahead in upgrades, then that certainly doesn't mean Protoss spent 1200 resources fewer than Terran. You can't have it both ways lol. Also, Terran units are more cost-effective and Terran is the least gas-heavy race in the game and input other biased stuff here, just like you did.
Theres no real reason to get shield upgrades because you do (full damage - shield armor), which still is usually like 95% dmg with marauders, and if using a lot of marines your army either gets completely emp'd or you win. Protoss can actually be 3/3 versus terrans 2/2/1 air attack and they will be at about equal money spend on upgrades. Ironic considering you also have chrono to get those upgrades faster.
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On December 06 2011 07:57 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 07:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 06 2011 07:37 unSpeake wrote:
Protoss upgrades are cheaper than terran upgrades. Protoss can chrono their upgrades. Terran need 3 upgrades (range, armor, air weapons), protoss need 2. All in all, protoss save something like 600/600 in upgrades that terran needs, plus they also have chrono so they can never be behind in upgrades. That's why the matchup is so hard ATM There are three Protoss upgrades in a forge, buddy. If you don't get one of the two defensive ones (armor vs. shields), then you're essentially only upgrading half a unit's health. And if Protoss is ahead in upgrades, then that certainly doesn't mean Protoss spent 1200 resources fewer than Terran. You can't have it both ways lol. Also, Terran units are more cost-effective and Terran is the least gas-heavy race in the game and input other biased stuff here, just like you did. Terran barracks units are more cost efficient than Protoss gateway units sure, (with the exception of HTs which can be either extremely cost efficient or extremely cost inefficient.) However, anything for Terran that doesn't come out of the barracks is not cost efficient at all in TvP.
Well isn't 95% or so of your army invested in barracks and gateway units? That's obviously the biggest chunk of your resources. If you're referring to mech, then sure. That's why Terran doesn't go mech, in the same way that Protoss air isn't cost-efficient in PvT so Protoss doesn't make air. But can you say that banshees, vikings, and medivacs can't be cost-efficient? Those are the other units used in TvP (although far fewer than the barracks units). I feel like those would come down to micro and how you use them with harrassment.
My point, however, was that he ignored any Protoss cons and Terrans pros, and gave a very one-sided argument.
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EPT
