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On December 03 2011 03:44 Young_Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 03:38 Doodsmack wrote:On December 03 2011 03:32 neoghaleon55 wrote:On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote:
This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney? Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota? There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization. You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community" Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion.
noone loves every caster no matter what casters they get theyd get a long line of complaints that the casters are terrible and they should be changed
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It's really disappointing that NASL doesn't want to compete with Dreamhack and IPL, it just doesn't even want to try to offer what they offer. There is no argument that can really be made for the tournaments, it's a definitively inferior product that has a much greater asking price.
It's absurd really, particularly when looking at things like the 360p limit for non-ticket holders.
On December 03 2011 03:44 Young_Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 03:38 Doodsmack wrote:On December 03 2011 03:32 neoghaleon55 wrote:On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote:
This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney? Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota? There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization. You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community" Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion.
I honestly don't have a problem with Gretorp's casting, it's just the general NASL production that literally can not compare with IPL or Dreamhack. In terms of flat offerings such as resolution, they're offering an inferior product at a greater price.
The GSL can do this because they're the one big Korean tournament with the best players in the world, they aren't in direct competition with Dreamhack and IPL because of the way it's run. NASL isn't in the same boat, it is in direct competition with Dreamhack and IPL, they should at least be trying to compete.
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im thinking hero vs puma again with hero winning, again
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On December 03 2011 03:45 Doodsmack wrote:
Refer to the Dreamhack Winter preview article for an idea of what an actual event preview is. Waxangel's tidbits about the players' history (which is what his comparisons to the tournaments amount to) don't cut it.
And like the guy I quoted, you pretended the "haters" are taking issue only with the fact that TL writers criticized NASL. That's not the issue at all.
I'm thinking that general lack of enthusiasm for this league has hit even waxangel...
But I agree, this preview isn't up to par with his other works.
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It would appear many TLers want pure hype, even though hype is hard to come by (and undeserved) for some events (read: NASL).
Thank you WaxAngel for calling out the casters. When I do it, I get warned.  Loved the honesty and critical nature of the article. Not everything has to read like a fangasm on here.
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On December 03 2011 03:46 Mordiford wrote:It's really disappointing that NASL doesn't want to compete with Dreamhack and IPL, it just doesn't even want to try to offer what they offer. There is no argument that can really be made for the tournaments, it's a definitively inferior product that has a much greater asking price. It's absurd really, particularly when looking at things like the 360p limit for non-ticket holders. Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 03:44 Young_Gun wrote:On December 03 2011 03:38 Doodsmack wrote:On December 03 2011 03:32 neoghaleon55 wrote:On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote:
This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney? Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota? There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization. You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community" Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion. I honestly don't have a problem with Gretorp's casting, it's just the general NASL production that literally can not compare with IPL or Dreamhack. In terms of flat offerings such as resolution, they're offering an inferior product at a greater price. The GSL can do this because they're the one big Korean tournament with the best players in the world, they aren't in direct competition with Dreamhack and IPL because of the way it's run. NASL isn't in the same boat, it is in direct competition with Dreamhack and IPL, they should at least be trying to compete.
I think the general feeling amongst alot of spectators that NASL has poor value for money has been really bad for them. I also think that they underestimate SC2 fans in general. We can clearly compare what NASL offer to IPL/Dreamhack/MLG. If this final of NASL is also 360p for non ticket holders then they can wave their adds revenue good bye. I certainly wont be watching and I think a lot of people would also skip it.
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On December 03 2011 03:46 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 03:44 Young_Gun wrote:On December 03 2011 03:38 Doodsmack wrote:On December 03 2011 03:32 neoghaleon55 wrote:On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote:
This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney? Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota? There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization. You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community" Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion. noone loves every caster no matter what casters they get theyd get a long line of complaints that the casters are terrible and they should be changed
Er..no..?
Don't think anyone complains about Tastosis.
Apollo, day9, DJwheat etc do a fantastic job and the crowd can tell. They are one of the reasons why MLG is so successful.
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Hwangsin snipe made me lol, tt1 in comments made me chuckle, overall good article!
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On December 03 2011 03:57 IPA wrote:
It would appear many TLers want pure hype, even though hype is hard to come by (and undeserved) for some events (read: NASL).
Oh shut up, an off-line event with this great line-up fighting for $100k and with so many good casters deserves a certain amount of hype no matter what. Take your hate elsewhere.
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On December 03 2011 04:12 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 03:57 IPA wrote:
It would appear many TLers want pure hype, even though hype is hard to come by (and undeserved) for some events (read: NASL).
Oh shut up, an off-line event with this great line-up fighting for $100k and with so many good casters deserves a certain amount of hype no matter what. Take your hate elsewhere.
They're delivering a product, ultimately. People are just comparing it to others out there, namely Dreamhack, IPL, MLG. NASL isn't even trying to compete with them while expecting viewers to pay more.
Everyone has every right to criticize an event that seems to be fine with failing to live up to it's competitors while overcharging.
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I really like the long format. More like the old BW star leagues. All the pressure and fatigue that goes along with weekend events takes away from the quality of the games.
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On December 03 2011 03:24 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 03:00 jnsjr wrote:
Looking forward to the NASL finals. There is alot of great foreign talent, and surely some great matches coming up. I hope they are able to pull off another great finals like last season.
As far as the OP, graphics are awesome, and while the player + tournament comparisons are funny, I agree with previous posters and feel like this is out of place. Of course there is a time and place to criticize NASL for its shortcomings, but its not right before the finals. There is a great roster of foreign competitors in the finals, and in a hype thread that should be the focus. That negativity in the OP is overshadowing whats really important. IMHO, wait until after the finals to judge like this please.
I think it's been on everyone's mind for a long time. As the finals are closing in, more and more people talk about the flaws of the NASL. Most of my friends and myself don't even plan on watching it simply because the league thus far have not been very exciting. The OP addressed some of these concerns directly while hyping the tournament is a great way to appease anti-fans while catering to fans alike.
Hm, not watching the finals with some of the best foreigners "simply" because you didn't like the regular season? I'm not sure what effect their rather boring regular season will have on the games in the finals given the line up, but okay, that is your prerogative. I didn't watch the regular season, but will definitely tune in to see Idra, Huk, Demuslim, Sen, Dimaga, Morrow, Puma, Sheth ... (you get the point) play some great games. If you really hate NASL that much that you would rather miss these great games as a way to protest, by all means go for it.
Anyway, I do agree with what you are saying concerning the flaws of NASL, but you haven't addressed the central criticism of my post, which was that a hype thread/preview thread is not the right place for these criticisms. I don't think people are disagreeing with the criticisms. NASL has some major flaws that other tournaments don't and never had; that doesn't change the fact that a finals preview/hype thread is not the place for it.
Edit: There are event (or season in this case) wrap up threads for these sort of valid criticisms. Even a mid-season review of NASL would be better, but this type of article right before their grand finals is a bit much IMHO.
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Long leagues work in Korea, where physical area is small and all players can be at the studio every match. Since America is huge, it means less exciting (imo) online games, or only players in a small area. A solution could be divisions based on geographical location, but all members of, say, EG would be in the same division, which would suck. Interesting to see how MLG will solve this with the (rumored) long format in 2012.
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Why should NASL be blamed for the greediness of the Korean teams? They proposed multiple offers and were denied. This article would've been better as two I guess.
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the Dagon Knight4011 Posts
On December 03 2011 03:45 Doodsmack wrote:
Refer to the Dreamhack Winter preview article for an idea of what an actual event preview is. Waxangel's tidbits about the players' history (which is what his comparisons to the tournaments amount to) don't cut it.
In fairness, the DH Winter preview was sort of a stroke of luck. We borrowed HayprO for a little while, recorded the conversation, and while we were doing it TLO came over to ask what was going on. It was one of those cases where everything was in the right place and it all worked out. Even then, given the weird format and the time taken to transcribe, we didn't finish it until about 3am the night before the tournament began.
Not sure if this gives too much insight into the process...
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Can't wait for the NASL, EG and Mouz have some strong representing forces, as expected, with 4 players each
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On December 03 2011 04:18 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 04:12 Longshank wrote:On December 03 2011 03:57 IPA wrote:
It would appear many TLers want pure hype, even though hype is hard to come by (and undeserved) for some events (read: NASL).
Oh shut up, an off-line event with this great line-up fighting for $100k and with so many good casters deserves a certain amount of hype no matter what. Take your hate elsewhere. They're delivering a product, ultimately. People are just comparing it to others out there, namely Dreamhack, IPL, MLG. NASL isn't even trying to compete with them while expecting viewers to pay more. Everyone has every right to criticize an event that seems to be fine with failing to live up to it's competitors while overcharging.
Yeah and I agree with much of the criticism but going over the shortcomings of the regular season doesn't belong in the Grand Final preview/hype thread. It's just common sense and decency.
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for the people comparing NASL to dreamhack, thats apples to oranges
and im sure many people will immediately say im wrong without reading any farther but ehre goes
the main season of NASL isnt like any other tournament its basically a couple months long group play its basically like the first 2 days of MLG stretched out for months
then theres the finals with is the oranges to dreamhacks oranges the finals have good casters, good games, good venue, good entertainment like the live shows going on
i dont get how people can complain about the casters when DjWheat, Day[9], mr.bitter, husky and rotterdam will be there so you cant say the casting will be terrible
the players are nothing short of spectacular and are the lineup youd expect from IPLs and dreamhacks so you cant complain about the talent, imo its about the best line up you can get with the bulk of koreans refusing to join unless the path is paved with money
its 10$ if you buy a pass now so you cant really complain about the price
you cant complain (yet) about the stream since we havent seen the stream yet
so really i dont see any reasons to complain about this weekend sure the regular season may have flaws, and your welcome to skip it, but the finals are looking amazing
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Is the streaming starting after this HON stuff?
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On December 03 2011 04:19 Doof wrote:
I really like the long format. More like the old BW star leagues. All the pressure and fatigue that goes along with weekend events takes away from the quality of the games.
Every single game mattered in old BW Star Leagues.
They don't even play that many games btw so I don't know what you think fatigue comes in to it at all.
It was just spread out but small number of games.
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EPT
