There were some high hopes going in, and in fact the NASL did improve in a lot of aspects in season two. By all means, NASL S2 wasn't BAD, as in it didn't actively drive you away from games like certain moment during season one. However, the best it could muster was a feeling of general apathy, as its rate of improvement lagged behind the rest of the rapidly growing Starcraft II scene. As much as we wanted to give NASL a second chance at its start, it's only fair that we now examine some of the reasons it once again fell short of expectations.
Fan Preference Towards Short Events
During its debut, the NASL was one of the first high profile leagues to promise almost daily top level games and received some plaudits for delivering consistently high-level matches. Even today, the few that support NASL cite the consistent availability of such games as one of NASL's biggest appeals.
NASL's execution of its core concept of being a long league improved for the second season, but by then the dynamics of the StarCraft II competitive scene had shifted drastically. Aside from the GSL, the leagues that drew the most attention were two to four day LAN events, and NASL's months long format looked out of place.
The scene is dominated by easily digestible and efficiently packaged tournaments that can force maximum attention over a short span of time. Consider Barcraft. 'BarCraft Providence' not only has a better ring to it than 'BarCraft NASL Week 2 Div 5,' but the name itself implies an entire tournament's worth of competition and drama. The 'ESPORTS weekend' (MLG, DreamHack, IPL3) appeals to both novice and veteran fans alike, offering the instant gratification of crowning a champion within days, not months. This particularly benefits the newer fans, who are still trying to grasp what ESPORTS actually is.
NASL's not alone in this department. When was the last time you saw the community collectively come together to discuss IPL Qualifiers or the MLG Global invitational? It's the pomp and circumstance of flashy live events that capture the attention of this young community, and it may be the only way for an organization to distinguish itself in an increasingly congested scene.
Rigidity from Broadcast Delay
Arguably, the most critical issue caused by the NASL's broadcast delay was how it hindered their interaction with the community. Like any other ESPORTS organization, NASL turns a keen eye toward the criticism from fans online, but all the attentiveness in the world is useless when you're on an inflexible broadcast schedule from weeks delayed games. It gave the NASL an undesirable aura of stubbornness, and ultimately led to a fatal inability to adapt.
Looking back, IPL Season 2 also had a very late broadcast delay, and they were met with an equal amounts of backlash. MLG and IPL are now fomenting an atmosphere of "You ask, we deliver," where fans can expect to see their criticisms acted upon posthaste. Though the NASL staff certainly heard the criticisms towards their league, there's just too little they could do about a broadcast that finished production on four weeks ago.
Again, it's all about the affinity towards short, live events. In MLG's case, if their event is a disaster, it's merely a three day disaster before they can retreat to their HQ and improve their product for the next event. In both practice and appearance, there's a huge advantage in adaptability. Adding insult to injury, NASL wasn't even able to capitalize off the success of other live tournaments. For instance, IdrA's win at IEM Guangzhou or HuK's win at MLG Orlando might have sparked some interest in their NASL games, if only they had the correct timing. It was survival of the ESPORTS fittest in 2011, and the NASL's broadcast structure left the organization without any room for growth mid season.
The Korean Boycott
This summer, the Korean teams channeled their inner OPEC and set a strict price for their players: travel, accommodations, and a considerable amount of change to spare. NASL could not (or refused to) alter their budget to meet these demands, and they were left without the Koreans who were a highlight of their first season.
With the season starting during the height of Korean dominance, it dealt a large blow to the legitimacy of the league. IPL had just come off a disappointing second season that one might attribute to the lack of Koreans. While IPL decided to loosen its purse strings and obtain those valuable Koreans for season three, it was easy to see that the stingier (or less financially endowed) NASL would suffer during season two.
Though the October Revolution did much to restore the credibility of non-Korean pros, Koreans remain a vital half of the ESPORTS equation. Beyond the caliber of play they bring, they are almost a status symbol for a league, their presence analogous to some sort of unofficial ESPORTS government stamp of approval. For a league that had a rocky first season, NASL needed all the validation it could get. After it's all over, NASL's management might wonder if it may have been worth bending the back for Korean.
Lack of Top Tier Casting
One of the most commonly cited reasons for not following the NASL was the casters. For the most part, the SC2 caster's first responsibility is to entertain, and then to inform (perhaps "be a friend and mentor" third). Not that SC2 isn't entertaining without casting – most readers of this article probably watch replays for fun – but entertainment is what the caster can add to an otherwise clear cut game. Tastosis aren't the top casters because they know more than everyone or because they can describe the positioning of a line of siege tanks better; they're the top team for the same reason there are monthly "greatest hits" videos of them on YouTube. They're really entertaining.
While Gretorp and Orb proved to be quite capable, they lacked the chemistry of even season one's maligned Gretorp and iNcontroL combo. By the end of the season one, the two were playing off of each other well; with a combination of Gretorp's goofy-ness that meshed well with iNcontroL's confidence, though neither of them took themselves too seriously. Gretorp and Orb are excited about the games, describe the action well, and provide good analysis, but it simply isn't fun. It's not directly analogous because the role of the SC2 caster is different from the casters in traditional sports, but the Gretorp / Orb vibe was almost like having two play-by-play guys in the booth. Gretorp and Orb might become parts of excellent casting teams in the future, but together they lacked that spark to move the cast beyond "watching a game I really like" to something more.
Poor Value for Cost
Price was a major factor. For $25, viewers received dubious value compared to offerings from the competition. The free low quality, paid high quality + VOD access model works for exactly one league, and that is the Korean boosted GSL.
In comparison, both IPL and DreamHack give away high quality videos for free, while MLG offers a much more tolerable low quality stream then NASL. VOD access is baseline. For a league suffering from prestige problems, it was almost absurd for NASL to charge more and offer less than their competitors.
Perhaps it would have worked better to have had a 1080p stream and then charged for VOD access? It may have let them capture more of the casual stream-watchers who ended up watching HD pro-streams instead. In any case, there were many ways NASL could have tweaked their pricing policy without discarding the pay model entirely.
The last stand of 2011
For all its troubles, the NASL does have that 'ESPORTS Weekend' to end the season. It's likely that many of the NASL nay-sayers will tune in this weekend, as the hype and excitement of watching live Starcraft II is irresistible (of course, some people will watch out of grim fascination, hoping for train wreck to validate their criticisms). People still call the NASL Season One Finals the organization's saving grace, and this seasons finals should offer another shot at redemption.
Dinosaurs. Natural disasters. Movies. Is there any theme TeamLiquid writers won't abuse? I had hoped we'd have enough corny ideas for previews left by the end of 2011, but going into NASL it looked like we had run out...
Fortunately, the community was there to give me inspiration. It turned out that in the week leading to the finals, everyone (including us) was obsessed with complaining about NASL S2, pointing out its many shortfalls, and comparing it to other tournaments. Of course! How did I forget that ESPORTS fans are more interested in meta-ESPORTS than actual ESPORTS. We have more fun talking about the triumphs and travails of organizations than watching actual games. With that in mind, it was obvious what I had to do.
I'm hard pressed to beat Tree.Hugger's 14/15 correct for the DHW 2011 final sixteen, but here's my go at it.
HerO > Hwangsin: It's highly volatile PvP, so I'll just pick the better player while keeping in mind that there's a healthy chance of an upset.
HuK > HasuObs: Ditto. It's worth mentioning that HuK has lost his last three series against Euro-tosses (vs Seiplo at DH, Naniwa at MLG, and Elfi at ASUS ROG). Surely it won't happen for the fourth time in a row?
DIMAGA > Brat_OK: Brat_OK lost to DIMAGA at Blizzcon 2011, and he even got to play on Xel'Naga Caverns in a TvZ best of three. In good conscience, I just can't pick Brat_OK to win after that.
Sen > TT1: If it were a best of three, perhaps TT1 would make a prudent underdog pick. However, he just has too strong a reputation as a cheesy player, and Sen too strong a reputation as a macro player. In a BO5 series, I've gotta go with Sen.
Mana > Morrow: Whoa, it's a team that's not Liquid or EG getting f***ed over by brackets! Three mouz players are stuck in this side of the bracket. Team kills have been hard to call ever since the Brood War days (mutual familiarity can cause some really wonky games), but I'll go with Mana as he's been hotter on the tournament circuit as of late.
ThorZaIN > DeMusliM: Dammit, voting with my heart. On a side note, ThorZaIN received the bizarre #11 seed after winning the semi-open tournament to qualify for the NASL Grand Finals. Sure, there was a good reason (top two during regular season received seeds 1-10, semi-open winner received 11, playoff winners received 12-16), but still, eleven!
IdrA > Strelok: Strelok's rather good at the boring macro style of TvZ, but I don't think he has the cleanest micro or execution. Unless he's prepared some map and opponent specific tactics, he will get crushed by IdrA in straight-up games.
Sheth > Puma: I remember a time, a few months ago, when ZvP was supposed to be Sheth's best match-up. Then he ended up drawing Terran opponents in every tournament. Amusingly enough, he beat the majority of them. Whoops, I guess your best match-up is ZvT now! Head to head record says Puma, but I'll go with my heart here.
Much like Major League Gaming, IdrA and HuK represent the North American old guard that has been around from early days of Starcraft II. Though their careers haven't exactly been about continued and unvaried success (but whose career is?), the two have hit some amazing highs and established themselves as the faces of pro-gaming in the New World. While many worthy challengers have popped this year, HuK, IdrA, and MLG are still the undisputed headliners for ESPORTS. With that kind of presence, is it any surprise that Koreans organizations like SlayerS and GSL are eager to work with them?
DreamHack is the superstar continental representative of tournaments in Europe, and DIMAGA, Morrow, and ThorZaIN represent the analogous superstar players. Unlike HuK's barrage of attention stealing Tweets and MLG's constant stream of off-season shows and hype, DreamHack and the European quartet tend to stay subdued for most of the year. Instead, DreamHack saves the hype engine for the weeks leading to their tournaments, just like DIMAGA, Morrow, Mana and ThorZaIN prefer to speak through their games.
We complete our continental tour with the GSL, HerO, and Puma. Though they have an unfortunate lack of affinity with Code S, HerO and Puma are fully capable of representing the fearsome level of play that makes the GSL the most prestigious championship in the world. Also, all three have a penchant for teaming up with American ESPORTS organizations, expanding their horizons and marketing themselves to an international audience.
Both Sheth and IPL have been around for a while, and have received a decent amount of attention from fans. However, it is only recently that they have really hit their stride. IPL held a headline stealing IPL3, while Sheth has put together a string of impressive results across multiple tournaments. Their stock is rising, and it seems that things will only get better in the future. Additionally, they are both practitioners of unmatched Good Manner. Sheth is quite possibly the nicest person in pro-gaming, while IPL's treatment of pro players has been second to none.
Few people pay attention but a dedicated few, but those who do watch regularly know there is real quality here. Unfortunately, mainstream attention only seems to derive from the occasional thrownmatch. It's scary how well this describes both ESV.TV and Brat_OK.
Not every European hit enjoys international success. I'm sure everyone's at least heard of IEM, HasuObs, and Strelok, but few people seem to get terribly excited about them outside of Europe. Which is a shame, because all three have made trips overseas and gained moderate degrees of success, but that's gone mostly unnoticed. It just goes to show the value of powerful hype engine in Starcraft II, as the lack of one sees otherwise worthy entities fall to the wayside.
As old school as they come, both TSL and Sen first proved their gaming chops in Brood War before continuing that success in Starcraft II. The infrequency of their appearances leads some to forget their existence, but they're always ready to make an impact when they do show up.
It's hard to get over an ignominious reputation, but TT1 and ESWC are making strides. ESWC went broke and refused to pay out prize money while TT1 map-hacked as a player; both cardinal sins in their respective realms. However, ESWC's 2011 Tournament seemed to go without a hitch (well, maybe we should wait till the payouts have been confirmed), and TT1 has been having a quietly successful career after going clean.
This one's a stretch, but it makes some sense if you think about it. HomeStoryCup and DeMusliM are both hugely entertaining fan favorites, but they're still a step away from being taken 'seriously.' It's that same festive atmosphere that allows players with games the next day to carouse with each other that puts HSC just one step down from 100% competitive tournaments (like Tyler said, it seemed like there was a choice between attending to have fun, and attending to win). Similarly, for all his prodigious skill, DeMusliM still has to go out there and place high at a big tournament to be considered a top contender. (CatZ, why couldn't you qualify for NASL so I could dedicate this analogy to you?)
On December 02 2011 15:02 CosmicHippo wrote: Man, hoping a guy that nobody thinks is going to win wins. But honestly I think Heros got this tournament. Liked the banner and the article!
I just hope Her0 isn't rundown from all the traveling.
Yeah I'm hoping to see some DeMuslim this weekend. He's continually hyped up as this amazing Terran yet I cant remember watching his matches at an event or seeing him win anything. Hope to see what everyone talks about.
On December 02 2011 15:05 TT1 wrote: newbi waxangael dont call me an cheesy player if u dont know anything about sc2
He didn't even call you cheesy?
Sen > TT1: If it were a best of three, perhaps TT1 would make a prudent underdog pick. However, he just has too strong a reputation as a cheesy player, and Sen too strong a reputation as a macro player. In a BO5 series, I've gotta go with Sen.
I was going to go on a rant about how MorroW will crush MaNa, and how its ridiculous to blindly call it on recent tournaments when most MorroW fans know he's been lurking in wait for NASL/WCG...
..But then that HwangSin comment made me fall over. Good job.
This is such a sick lineup. I'm glad we're to the point where you don't have to have 15 Koreans to be called a legitimate tournament. IdrA/DiMAGA fighting!~
I can't help but feel as though the joke about Hwangsin is just because you didn't do much research on him :/ it's a shame that he didn't get better coverage than that. Of course I could be wrong and he has just cheesed every game, but either way, playing off an up and coming player in such a low way is just kind of, well, low.
I really like the NASL, but I do think the business model and format need rethinking. It would be great if they went to an all weekend event like MLG. Holding 4 or 5 per year, with a grand finals at the end. Or a team league like BW proleauge with the same weekend mlg type setup.
I've been saying this for months now, and I'll go ahead and repeat myself again. How awesome would it be if a bunch of the leagues got together and formed a unified circuit. MLG, IPL, NASL, and perhaps their European counterparts, Dreamhack, IEM.
Then we could have an event every weekend or every other weekend through most of the year, a stronger business model for everyone involved (everyone sharing fans and not stepping on each others toes by being live at the same times) more at stake for every placing in every event. (because your placing in every event earns you points towards seeding for the yearly championship).
Players would get a nice off season as well. The circuit would have the same prestige if not more than GSL and once a year we would get a true world champion of starcraft 2. Also, it would give the member leagues of the circuit a lot of bargaining power in working out logistics with venues, airlines, hotels and such, possibly more sponsor dollars as well if the viewership is able to increase.
Pro players wouldn't have to choose between events and it would make team houses in the west not only viable, but almost necessary. Also, the level of professionalism at events would increase because getting yourself a warning at one event would carry over to all the other big money events.
or are u just butthurt that i eliminated a tl member? i guess thats where the bo3 reference came from right?
not quite sure about cheesy play, but I was impressed by TT1's games against DIMAGA in NASL.
the cheesy reputation might be a result of maphack scandal -> people dislike you -> if you beat one of their favourite players they will call you cheesy, compounded by the fact that the use of internet speak is kind of annoying
I didn't watch hardly any of NASL season 2 in comparison to season 1, but I'm still definitely going to watch the finals this weekend. NASL still has a lot of issues, but I hope they are able to fix them all in the coming seasons.
i asked u to back ur claim up and u respond by making a poll? lol
I mean, this argument is about reputation after all...
amongst who, bronze-diamond league players? thats exactly the problem that i have with those type of statements, your perpetuating a bullshit image when u have no idea what your talking about
if i cheese/allin in a few games that doesnt mean i dont know how to play macro games ^^
i asked u to back ur claim up and u respond by making a poll? lol
I mean, this argument is about reputation after all...
amongst who, bronze-diamond league players? thats exactly the problem that i have with those type of statements, your perpetuating a bullshit image when u have no idea what your talking about
if i cheese/allin in a few games that doesnt mean i dont know how to play macro games ^^
it's cuz u type like an idiot. i'll edit your posts to be intelligent and graceful for 1 dollars per post. dead serious here. PR at its finest.
On December 02 2011 15:05 TT1 wrote: newbi waxangael dont call me an cheesy player if u dont know anything about sc2
Double negative bites you in the ass here
actually it makes sense (kind of)... he's saying 'if you don't know anything about starcraft (insulting waxangel), then don't call me a cheesy player'
but seriously... the grammar is pretty bad so it's difficult to make out. AN cheesy? really? I'm hoping that was a typo :/
the grammar editting might be something to take seriously if he cares about his image... but in the end I guess it's only results that matter, he just has to go out and beat Sen
It's weird for TL to open a preview with a bunch of criticism of the event they're covering. I think it would be more appropriate to have a separate article for it and the timing is really weird since there's nothing NASL can do about it at this point. The tournament as players thing is a cool idea but it's a little convoluted as it encompasses BW achievements. I do I like the astute predictions.
Looking forward to these great games. Especially rooting for terrans to show us some effective TvP other than 1-1-1. I feel it has become a unanimous struggle as of late for terrans.
I feel like NASL got burned a bit too much in a preview that is supposed to by hyping the nasl finals. I agree that nasl has its share of problems, but I feel like the finals article is a bad place to be analyzing those problems.
I think it's fine to have NASL criticism in the finals hype article, it's not TL.net's job to do promo work for NASL. But it might've been more entertaining to open with the predictions/player analysis then move onto the criticisms later, possibly closing with a "suggestions for season 3" section to end on a fun note.
Although then you wouldn't have closed with the awesome Hwangsin/NASL comparison...
I don't know anything but I saw Idra absolutely steamroll like five high-ranked GM players in less than an hour when he streamed the other day. Like, war crimes may be filed.
Nice preview. I didn't watch any of the games this season. Not enough time to watch everything these days, so much Starcraft so little time D: I'll tune into this for sure though, can't wait!
The flames here are entertaining. I am on my second bag of popcorn... keep'em'coming. Btw...shouldn't admins put a stop to this? even if it's about wax and tt1.....normal users could look up to them ;\
@Wax..the "they're all in" last part was amazingly funny..i almost chocked :D
Man, for some reason this article makes me want to watch less (as someone who doesn't really have time to follow every league). Doesn't TL have a business relationship with these tourneys in regards to producing some positive hype? Just curious, seemed a little too critical for a Finals hype article and I think I remember Kennigit discussing on SOTG the general nature of these types of relationships as they pertain to TL. Though of course, I may just being talking out of my ass so forgive me if I am.
On December 02 2011 17:21 BFCrimson wrote: Man, for some reason this article makes me want to watch less (as someone who doesn't really have time to follow every league). Doesn't TL have a business relationship with these tourneys in regards to producing some positive hype? Just curious, seemed a little too critical for a Finals hype article and I think I remember Kennigit discussing on SOTG the general nature of these types of relationships as they pertain to TL. Though of course, I may just being talking out of my ass so forgive me if I am.
Sadly, i have to agree. I for one i know i won't watch some matches of some players after reading this article :D
Of course we support all events as we want to scene to grow, but we are also proud to be honest, fair-handed, and tactful with our well researched news commentaries and assessments. But it is not as if they pay us to give them good press, as far as I know.
well, really liked the preview of the tournament, but wow, whats up with all the negativity towards NASL?
I really dont see why it is a bad thing that theyr tournament expands over a month. I can see that its not what the other tournaments are doing (dreamhack, mlg) but that certainly doesnt make NASL a lesser tournament. i personally like the whole idea of players getting the seeds through a month long performance. this forces players to practice alot more specificly towards theyr opponent, and i just find that to bring even more tactical depht to the games as a whole. And it is in without a doubt a better way to do it than MLG, where one guy has to win 30 straight games, while others just have to win 5 to take the whole tournament.
And then you bash the commentators. because you dont find them funny. really? if i wanted fun cast i would go to Huskys channel. or wahtever. again it is just my personal opinion, but id prefer in depht analysis over stupid out of context small talk any time. Besides, Gretorp is actually funny at times.
Yes you are probably right, that if NASL wants to be able to charge 25 for VODS and HQ stream, they should work on theyr production quality a bit. and that big 2 day events draw a bigger crowd is not really a secret. but that is really not the point about NASL. Its supposed to be the littlebrother of STARLEAGUE and GSL not another 2 day MLG/dreamhack clone. we already have soooo many of those events. What we need is something like GSL, and i really wish we had a EU-star league or something. its arguable exactly how well NASL was able to lift that responsebility, but please NASL, PLEASE, dont become another MLG!
Not that there is anything wrong with MLG, its a great tournament no doubt, we just have so many all ready. what we need is not to make this all about entertainment. We call it E-SPORT, not E-Entertainment. And sports needs leagues. The players are not rockstars that show up for 1 show and then just disappears untill the next. some of them might want to be ( :D ), but they are professionals. we need a league like GSL and NASL for every division to make this clear.
On December 02 2011 17:25 Klogon wrote: Of course we support all events as we want to scene to grow, but we are also proud to be honest, fair-handed, and tactful with our well researched news commentaries and assessments. But it is not as if they pay us to give them good press, as far as I know.
On December 02 2011 17:25 Klogon wrote: Of course we support all events as we want to scene to grow, but we are also proud to be honest, fair-handed, and tactful with our well researched news commentaries and assessments. But it is not as if they pay us to give them good press, as far as I know.
Personally, I don't mind that the TL feature be a bit harsh at times. Too soft with everyone, people will start calling us "TL Fluffy News."
I dont think that counts as TL getting money to hype them. I could have a product i want to advertise that is relevant to the gaming community. I could pay TL to post my stuff in that section. Does not mean i sponsor TL and they are obligated to talk me up. I basically paid for Ad space. At least that is my understanding on that matter~!
And on the TT1 matter - i hope we didnt mess up his play and he gets self conscious now lol. Like if he really cares about what ppl are saying about him, he might go for a macro game vs using a "cheesy" strat he could see a win with, and lose because of it. Interesting. :O
Good read. I agree with the S2 description. I haven't watched very much since the daily content gets lost among everything else exciting going on right now in the community. No need to watch 1-month old games at low quality when I can get non-stop live action from other streams, in good quality.
On December 02 2011 17:31 bagklog wrote: well, really liked the preview of the tournament, but wow, whats up with all the negativity towards NASL?
I really dont see why it is a bad thing that theyr tournament expands over a month. I can see that its not what the other tournaments are doing (dreamhack, mlg) but that certainly doesnt make NASL a lesser tournament. i personally like the whole idea of players getting the seeds through a month long performance. this forces players to practice alot more specificly towards theyr opponent, and i just find that to bring even more tactical depht to the games as a whole. And it is in without a doubt a better way to do it than MLG, where one guy has to win 30 straight games, while others just have to win 5 to take the whole tournament.
And then you bash the commentators. because you dont find them funny. really? if i wanted fun cast i would go to Huskys channel. or wahtever. again it is just my personal opinion, but id prefer in depht analysis over stupid out of context small talk any time. Besides, Gretorp is actually funny at times.
Yes you are probably right, that if NASL wants to be able to charge 25 for VODS and HQ stream, they should work on theyr production quality a bit. and that big 2 day events draw a bigger crowd is not really a secret. but that is really not the point about NASL. Its supposed to be the littlebrother of STARLEAGUE and GSL not another 2 day MLG/dreamhack clone. we already have soooo many of those events. What we need is something like GSL, and i really wish we had a EU-star league or something. its arguable exactly how well NASL was able to lift that responsebility, but please NASL, PLEASE, dont become another MLG!
Not that there is anything wrong with MLG, its a great tournament no doubt, we just have so many all ready. what we need is not to make this all about entertainment. We call it E-SPORT, not E-Entertainment. And sports needs leagues. The players are not rockstars that show up for 1 show and then just disappears untill the next. some of them might want to be ( :D ), but they are professionals. we need a league like GSL and NASL for every division to make this clear.
I think they could have had the critism in a seperate article after season 2 is finished but overall I think they brought up fair points. I don't agree with everything but you can't deny that season 2 is much less hyped, watched and generally talked about than season 1. No matter how you put it, nasl regressed from season 1 instead like the op points out, brought it to the next level as the other major sc2 organizers did. I agree there might be a place for longer tournaments but what nasl is doing right now is not working. Maybe if they got back the Koreans for season 3 they could make it work, but overall they need to reconsider their format imo.
Some on of the player write up seem a bit lack luster here t.t not your best write up -_-
DeMuslim was 1 of the best players in the Beta, was winning lots of EU cups and got signed by EG because of this during Open Seasons of GSL. Then, he broke his arm, then he broke it again, he came back middle of summer this year, practiced his F'n ass off in EG lair, getting ranked 1 GM on NA server, and top 3 on EU at the same time, winning online tournaments in USA, qualfying for IEM ganzu with idra, but couldn't go and for the ESWC until he found out he couldn't make it then forefited his games. So just saying he is still lacking is a bit harsh t.t
Would of been better if you just wrote what you did for TT1 for HwangSin lol oh well
I think they could have had the critism in a seperate article after season 2 is finished but overall I think they brought up fair points. I don't agree with everything but you can't deny that season 2 is much less hyped, watched and generally talked about than season 1. No matter how you put it, nasl regressed from season 1 instead like the op points out, brought it to the next level as the other major sc2 organizers did. I agree there might be a place for longer tournaments but what nasl is doing right now is not working. Maybe if they got back the Koreans for season 3 they could make it work, but overall they need to reconsider their format imo.[/QUOTE]
I absolutely agree with you that NASL is far from perfect and no doubt it it is not as hyped as season 1. But neither was GSL after Idra left, or MC dropped to code B. It got less hyped because the players we were used to see and loves couldnt keep up with the format of the tournament. I know Idra left voluntarily, but the point is it was because Idra left, that it got less hype overall. So yes, you are probably right that they will bring more viewers if they invited the koreans, and gave seeds to the most popular players. But a league will never get as much attention than a 2 day event. just look at world championsship or the Superbowl. But that is not the point of a league. that is on the other hand to provide a proffesional setting, where the pros can show great skill and consistency through a longer period.
Its clear that there is not huge support for the GSL/NASL format right now, but it takes time for leagues to get theyr champions and traditions in place. NASL might reach that at some point, but it is too early to tell right now.
"you dont always move to where the ball is, but where its going to be". I think this could be true about NASL aswell. afterall GSL's popularity increased as people started to recognice the players. this takes time. And i dont think the shortcut of just inviting Koreans is the right way to do it. Its a really short termed way of creating a hype, and really ruins the competetive nature of a league format.
On December 02 2011 17:25 Klogon wrote: Of course we support all events as we want to scene to grow, but we are also proud to be honest, fair-handed, and tactful with our well researched news commentaries and assessments. But it is not as if they pay us to give them good press, as far as I know.
Personally, I don't mind that the TL feature be a bit harsh at times. Too soft with everyone, people will start calling us "TL Fluffy News."
I dont think that counts as TL getting money to hype them. I could have a product i want to advertise that is relevant to the gaming community. I could pay TL to post my stuff in that section. Does not mean i sponsor TL and they are obligated to talk me up. I basically paid for Ad space. At least that is my understanding on that matter~!
And on the TT1 matter - i hope we didnt mess up his play and he gets self conscious now lol. Like if he really cares about what ppl are saying about him, he might go for a macro game vs using a "cheesy" strat he could see a win with, and lose because of it. Interesting. :O
Except that these tournament "spaces" are not just places for tournament organizers to post stuff but are actively updated and maintained by TeamLiquid staff. I'm not against this (though of course its not like that really matters), but it just seemed that the preview article was more critical than any of them I have read. I am all for unbiased journalism regarding Esports and would actively support efforts to provide it, however again as Kennigit stated (I refer to him as I would assume he would have a behind-the-scenes view of TL more than anyone else sans Hotbid etc.) TeamLiquid isn't in a position to provide this due to their relationships with Leagues from a business standpoint. Articles like these seem to fall under staff content as opposed to user content in my eyes for what it's worth.
Here's to NASL delivering when it counts. Firstly because I will watch it and I want to be entertained, and secondly because a league of NASL's proportions failing is not good, no matter how you flip it.
I'm glad the article wrote about the state of the tournament itself, I was half expecting that this preview would ignore the problems threatening the survival of the tournament.
I also love the background picture, the damaged Battlecruiser, a giant behemoth, cruising to the "finish line" definitely illustrates the state of NASL Season 2. Not sure if this was on purpose or not, but big Kudos to that.
Also, LOL @ TT1 and the poll, that itself made this discussion a win.
I'm glad to see that TL isn't afraid to step on people's toes. Fluff peices can get repetitive and boring. Anyway, i agree with all the criticisms of NASL. Hopefully, they can redeem themselves with a good offline event. Keep the awesome articles coming.
I have to say i'm quite surprised to see ESVTV korean weekly be mentioned here, between IPL and IEM, not bad not bad. :D Well, it can only give us some more exposure.
ahahwhhahahah, the players:tournaments comparison was literally perfect. The best thing TL has done since... I dunno if anything can top that, that was amazing.
On December 02 2011 18:48 JunkkaGom wrote: At leat NASL gets article. Where is GSL Nov. Final preview?
The final is already over.... Leenock won vs MVP... Just kidding. Ps. There is still 21h till the GSL final.. The previews usually are posted 6-14h before the event nowadays.
On December 02 2011 18:48 JunkkaGom wrote: At leat NASL gets article. Where is GSL Nov. Final preview?
The final is already over.... Leenock won vs MVP... Just kidding. Ps. There is still 21h till the GSL final.. The previews usually are posted 6-14h before the event nowadays.
Kidding, but not really? In any case, if the actual GSL finals can somehow top that MVP v Leenock series, holy biscuits.
My biggest issue with the NASL is the casters. I bought a Season 1 Ticket, but not a Season 2 because I can't stand Gretorp. He isn't funny, and his casting is overly dramatic and he has a poor use of vocabulary. Finally, he isn't educational.
If they get some solid casters (and there are so many to choose from... even someone "small" like the Imba.tv guy McDuff) it would greatly improve the value. I used to tune into the GSL all the time, even if I didn't care so much about the match because Tasteless and Artosis are so entertaining. Lately, I've been moving away from the GSL too because it seems like they never cast over there anymore, although I do enjoy Khaldor.
On December 02 2011 18:48 JunkkaGom wrote: At leat NASL gets article. Where is GSL Nov. Final preview?
The final is already over.... Leenock won vs MVP... Just kidding. Ps. There is still 21h till the GSL final.. The previews usually are posted 6-14h before the event nowadays.
Kidding, but not really? In any case, if the actual GSL finals can somehow top that MVP v Leenock series, holy biscuits.
Last night on Love Slasher DRG said Jjakjji will win coz he is helping him practice.
On December 02 2011 18:48 JunkkaGom wrote: At leat NASL gets article. Where is GSL Nov. Final preview?
The final is already over.... Leenock won vs MVP... Just kidding. Ps. There is still 21h till the GSL final.. The previews usually are posted 6-14h before the event nowadays.
Kidding, but not really? In any case, if the actual GSL finals can somehow top that MVP v Leenock series, holy biscuits.
Last night on Love Slasher DRG said Jjakjji will win coz he is helping him practice.
DRG is good and all, but he is not in the finals...
i asked u to back ur claim up and u respond by making a poll? lol
I mean, this argument is about reputation after all...
amongst who, bronze-diamond league players? thats exactly the problem that i have with those type of statements, your perpetuating a bullshit image when u have no idea what your talking about
if i cheese/allin in a few games that doesnt mean i dont know how to play macro games ^^
Is this post supposed to improve your reputation amongst SC2 viewers?
You just hurt your own image far worse than anything wax could have written in the OP :/
So underhyped after reading that. Not the sort of article I was expecting under this title. - Maybe should've been "The problems with NASL, oh and some predictions for the finals."
edit: thankfully some of the comments are exciting
I wish a critical article like this would have been written up AFTER the finals are over. I was hoping for a hype article this morning before the finals, not one that points out all of their flaws during the season. Save that for when Season 2 is fully done.
Edit: I heavily agree with the comment above me. Article name seems very wrong.
This made me equally two things: 1)hyped for NASL and hopeful for what they can do with this show. honestly i think part of the problem is that a theyve tried to do things in too sensible a way by having an actual league 2) annoyed that so many people dont give a shit about IEM
The NASL2 Grand Finals should be an awesome event, despite the mediocre course of the season. An eSports finale is always great in my books, and with such great players attending I just cannot contain my excitement for epic games! I think that the crown of the champion is tugged between HuK, IdrA and HerO. Altough I'd really like HerO to win this.
i asked u to back ur claim up and u respond by making a poll? lol
I mean, this argument is about reputation after all...
amongst who, bronze-diamond league players? thats exactly the problem that i have with those type of statements, your perpetuating a bullshit image when u have no idea what your talking about
if i cheese/allin in a few games that doesnt mean i dont know how to play macro games ^^
Is this post supposed to improve your reputation amongst SC2 viewers?
You just hurt your own image far worse than anything wax could have written in the OP :/
On December 02 2011 22:07 Pulimuli wrote: You predict Sheth > PuMa? wth? i mean its not impossible but that would be an upset, even though Sheth is really good. PuMa is PuMa
every other prediction seems pretty accurate though. MaNa vs MorroW is a hard one to call, since im a Swede im rooting for MorroW
TeamLiquid will always prevail over the Evil Empire
i asked u to back ur claim up and u respond by making a poll? lol
I mean, this argument is about reputation after all...
amongst who, bronze-diamond league players? thats exactly the problem that i have with those type of statements, your perpetuating a bullshit image when u have no idea what your talking about
if i cheese/allin in a few games that doesnt mean i dont know how to play macro games ^^
Is this post supposed to improve your reputation amongst SC2 viewers?
You just hurt your own image far worse than anything wax could have written in the OP :/
I think he had a brainfart and forgot that bronze-diamond makes up literally 98% of the playerbase (and viewers) :D
Well, IdrA calls him cheesy, so that's good enough for me at least ^^
If reputation is directly influenced by public opinion, then wouldn't this be a pretty effective way to find out who's right?
Aren't you supposed to be objective rather than write whatever the majority wants to hear? I mean what's the point of writing an article that repeats the mantra of posts made by 14 year olds all over TL?
On December 02 2011 17:14 xertion wrote: Didnt know TT1 was a cheater. As a fan of esport, he will never gain my respect.
Sick lineup, I'm ofcourse rooting for MorroW and THORZAIN!
Dimaga is a cheater too, plenty of others like Sarens, F91, Reason were also caught cheating.. it doesn't make it right, but I think everyone deserves a second chance.
On December 02 2011 17:14 xertion wrote: Didnt know TT1 was a cheater. As a fan of esport, he will never gain my respect.
Sick lineup, I'm ofcourse rooting for MorroW and THORZAIN!
Dimaga is a cheater too, plenty of others like Sarens, F91, Reason were also caught cheating.. it doesn't make it right, but I think everyone deserves a second chance.
This ! Please it's a long time ago. This has nothing to do with being a cheese player or not. Give the guy a second chance don't remind people about it every time, it's bullshit.
But i am sorry TT1, Sen is going to crush Hoping for HerO and Sen.
On December 02 2011 17:14 xertion wrote: Didnt know TT1 was a cheater. As a fan of esport, he will never gain my respect.
Sick lineup, I'm ofcourse rooting for MorroW and THORZAIN!
Dimaga is a cheater too, plenty of others like Sarens, F91, Reason were also caught cheating.. it doesn't make it right, but I think everyone deserves a second chance.
This ! Please it's a long time ago. This has nothing to do with being a cheese player or not. Give the guy a second chance don't remind people about it every time, it's bullshit.
But i am sorry TT1, Sen is going to crush Hoping for HerO and Sen.
On December 02 2011 17:14 xertion wrote: Didnt know TT1 was a cheater. As a fan of esport, he will never gain my respect.
Sick lineup, I'm ofcourse rooting for MorroW and THORZAIN!
Dimaga is a cheater too, plenty of others like Sarens, F91, Reason were also caught cheating.. it doesn't make it right, but I think everyone deserves a second chance.
This ! Please it's a long time ago. This has nothing to do with being a cheese player or not. Give the guy a second chance don't remind people about it every time, it's bullshit.
But i am sorry TT1, Sen is going to crush Hoping for HerO and Sen.
Like saviOr got a 2nd chance.
I don't think that's relevant - Dimaga and TT1 weren't making money off of illegal betting schemes. What savior did was a hundred times worse.
OT: Laughed out loud at the NASL/Hwangsin reference.
This article titled "NASL Season Two Grand Finals" had exactly one small paragraph plus a spoilered blurb previewing the NASL Season Two Grand Finals. The rest was about why one author thinks the S2 regular season was bad and why another author thinks you can draw parallels between players and tournaments.
...was this supposed to hype the finals? Because all I got out of it was that we shouldn't expect much lol.
i asked u to back ur claim up and u respond by making a poll? lol
I mean, this argument is about reputation after all...
amongst who, bronze-diamond league players? thats exactly the problem that i have with those type of statements, your perpetuating a bullshit image when u have no idea what your talking about
if i cheese/allin in a few games that doesnt mean i dont know how to play macro games ^^
Though by saying you have a rep for it he isnt saying you dont know how to macro, he's just saying hey people out there think he cheeses a bunch. Chesse isnt = to not knowing how to macro.
on a completely seperate note, Let's go IdrA, Huk, Puma, and DeMuslim :DD EG fighting :DD
Besides the fact there is very little decent content, it's too negative all around, and not enough hype is created here. I get that you're all for free speech and "saying how it is", but writing articles like this you have a lot of power to help dictate how much hype a tournament gets (and thus viewers, thus recognition, helping esports, etc), I don't think it's very ... friendly to freely state your opinions in stuff like this.
On December 02 2011 23:34 Buggington wrote: I don't like this article, sorry guys
Besides the fact there is very little decent content, it's too negative all around, and not enough hype is created here. I get that you're all for free speech and "saying how it is", but writing articles like this you have a lot of power to help dictate how much hype a tournament gets (and thus viewers, thus recognition, helping esports, etc), I don't think it's very ... friendly to freely state your opinions in stuff like this.
or are u just butthurt that i eliminated a tl member? i guess thats where the bo3 reference came from right?
That measures how many unspent resources you have vs your actual income, being on three bases wont give you a higher score if you have a lot of unspent resources, so you could be on 1 base cheesing and still get a high score...
Does that make you have a decent macro? ROFL
In Fact if you are collecting an average of 850 resources and unspending 250 resources your SQ would be : 87.5. EDIT: Try it yourself
.. Confused about the point to this article?: to berate NASL? I enjoy watching the nasl personnally... I find the gretorp(that how u spell it? - too lazy to check) / orb combo to be simply too nerdy jokewise but pretty good otherwise... definately prefer painuser/hd for example... But other than a lack of koreans (making just another foreigner only league in my eyes; something im used to from bw), the skill level is pretty high and a lot of the games were quite simply great. Although they certainly have many things to improve; and getting koreans over there would have to be at the top of their list, the NASL is pretty good imo... But I FUCKING HATE THESE PAY PER VIEW VODS FROM GOM / NASL WHO WILL EVER PAY FOR THIS (ok i actually thought about it very briefly untill I saw the price...)? Z_Z;; What ever happened to our friendly TL.net's VOD database where you could freely watch an unlimited amount of times almost any game from the gsl/msl (all be it the commentary was in korean). Pressure the sponsers for more money not the fans~~
On December 02 2011 17:14 xertion wrote: Didnt know TT1 was a cheater. As a fan of esport, he will never gain my respect.
Sick lineup, I'm ofcourse rooting for MorroW and THORZAIN!
Dimaga is a cheater too, plenty of others like Sarens, F91, Reason were also caught cheating.. it doesn't make it right, but I think everyone deserves a second chance.
This ! Please it's a long time ago. This has nothing to do with being a cheese player or not. Give the guy a second chance don't remind people about it every time, it's bullshit.
But i am sorry TT1, Sen is going to crush Hoping for HerO and Sen.
it makes me sad to open the article ready to be hyped about the upcoming tournament and instead I ended up reading what the authors think about the NASL regular season. As pointed by a few other posters, tournament preview for the grand final != time to bash the regular season. Nontheless, Hwangsin-NASL was funny!!
It seems as if the prevailing opinion is beginning to agree with me that there is not much NASL is doing right. I quit watching halfway through the first season, and if the first season finals didn't make me care, this one's surely won't. The writeup was enjoyable though.
I hope these finals are good, and can hopefully make up for the season sorry to say :/ . But a great final weekend definately WOULD make up for everything.... like a idra huk finals <<<<<<3333333 that would make me jizz. I will be buying the ticket for the finals sunday so dont worry
On December 03 2011 00:08 Nuzoybot wrote: it makes me sad to open the article ready to be hyped about the upcoming tournament and instead I ended up reading what the authors think about the NASL regular season. As pointed by a few other posters, tournament preview for the grand final != time to bash the regular season. Nontheless, Hwangsin-NASL was funny!!
Very well written article although I felt all the criticism should have been left for a Final Edit article rather than a hype preview article. Regardless, it was well defined and argued and I appreciated reading it. The predictions made me chuckle including the actual ones.
I appreciate the honest (in this case, critical) news articles from TL. Makes me feel like i'm reading an actual honest news source, and not something put out by fox news.
On December 02 2011 17:14 xertion wrote: Didnt know TT1 was a cheater. As a fan of esport, he will never gain my respect.
Sick lineup, I'm ofcourse rooting for MorroW and THORZAIN!
Dimaga is a cheater too, plenty of others like Sarens, F91, Reason were also caught cheating.. it doesn't make it right, but I think everyone deserves a second chance.
This ! Please it's a long time ago. This has nothing to do with being a cheese player or not. Give the guy a second chance don't remind people about it every time, it's bullshit.
But i am sorry TT1, Sen is going to crush Hoping for HerO and Sen.
Like saviOr got a 2nd chance.
You can't compare 1 crime with another.
You actually can, and it is done often in court of law... If 1 judge rules in a certain way for a case that can be compared in some way to another case- the first verdict will often influence the 2nd. PS i never heard of sarens cheating... and what saviOr did wasnt hacking it was match fixing so in this case; no u cant compare them.
Great article, I read it on the way to work. I think the NASL needs to take (another) long hard look at their format after these finals, and to make sure everything goes off buttery smooth for this weekend!
What's with tt1 bashing. He got hammered so hard in the article and a 3 word report on the hwsing player. Because of that I hope tt1 or hwsang wins the entire tournament.
On December 03 2011 00:41 ih8Australia wrote: What's with tt1 bashing. He got hammered so hard in the article and a 3 word report on the hwsing player. Because of that I hope tt1 or hwsang wins the entire tournament.
TL Writing Staff: Giving Fans Someone To Root For Since 2002
Funny how there's a NASL countdown timer in the TL banner but a giant anti-hype article plastered on the home page lol. Certainly TL writers shouldn't write articles to please organizations TL is receiving ad revenue from. However it's a questionable use of ad space when the finals countdown timer is coupled with a regular-season bashing article disguised as a finals preview article. Just criticize the regular season at the appropriate time and place.
Leave TT1 alone dude, if i'm not mistaken he used to double nexus expand at some point lol. he has good macro. And alot of protoss have been doing 7/8 gates on 2 bases against zerg lately, and it's not because they are cheesy but because zerg is a strong race :D. (just analyze HuK's games, it's pretty similar to TT1)
how come every article i find on TL is all about how terrible everything is and how things should be fixed but wont?
you seemed to be very biased against the NASL for instance
NASL could not (or refused to) alter their budget to meet these demands, and they were left without the Koreans who were a highlight of their first season.
this makes me think that you jsut refused to actually look into the story behind it, from everything i heard the NASL tried to bend over backwards for the Koreans and offered them a very good deal that was essentially what they wanted and considering that unlike MLG the prize pool was huge there was no reason for anyone to think the Koreans should have gotten everything they wanted (which was essentially free money, and not having to spend a dime or do anything but play)
i think your opinion on the casters isnt something that deserves to have made the article since it was an Opinion, people have plenty of opinions about casters and seems like the community is always torn between liking and hating every caster
also your mention of Barcraft, it may be different in other areas but as far as i know you dont see many barcrafts for the first 2 days of MLG most of the time barcrafts are for the FINALS (at least the big ones) so obviously the barcrafts would be for the three days of finals
also you never mentioned the success of season one despite its problems the finals were amazing
seems to me this sint an article to discuss NASL but an outlet for you to take out all your hate
So many people want shit to be sugarcoated to "inflate" the hype and help ESPORTS. Nothing will hurt ESPORTS more than being dishonest about the reality of certain situations. Yes the timing is a little off, feels like Waxangel might've missed the deadline for this and should've been on the front page when the regular season ended or the playoffs. It's pointless to have something like this AFTER the Finals because barring any horrendous screw ups(Eagles), it'll be good-great and people would then claim the article is trying to put a wet blanket over a "successful finals event". Good article just late timing.
Shitting all over a tournament seems like a weird approach for a hype thread. I'm not sure I'm a big fan of this new TL style of shit articles only for the purpose of stirring up some drama.
edit: that said, I'm no fan of NASL but there's a time and place for everything.
On December 03 2011 00:12 deth2munkies wrote: It seems as if the prevailing opinion is beginning to agree with me that there is not much NASL is doing right. I quit watching halfway through the first season, and if the first season finals didn't make me care, this one's surely won't. The writeup was enjoyable though.
their argument for this huge long season was always that it would develop story lines. but since a player from pool 1 will be playing people from other groups and the open bracket, how can there be a story line between then?
"liquid'hero will be fighting off against his huge rival EGpuma today after they both made it to the finals by avoiding each other completely all season long, serious tension here today"
the story lines of last season were all completely from the finals. this will be no different. the main season has been a huge failure in every stated way.
On December 03 2011 01:17 Hrrrrm wrote: So many people want shit to be sugarcoated to "inflate" the hype and help ESPORTS. Nothing will hurt ESPORTS more than being dishonest about the reality of certain situations. Yes the timing is a little off, feels like Waxangel might've missed the deadline for this and should've been on the front page when the regular season ended or the playoffs. It's pointless to have something like this AFTER the Finals because barring any horrendous screw ups(Eagles), it'll be good-great and people would then claim the article is trying to put a wet blanket over a "successful finals event". Good article just late timing.
noones saying sugarcoat it but dont rip off the sugar thats already on it
theres plenty of amazing games, amazing players, and amazing casters and amazing shows (Live on three and the Day[9] daily) going on during the grand finals which is plenty to get me hyped and all the article does it talk about the regular season
no mention of the casters no mention of the games to be played no mention of the shows happening no information at all about whats actually going to be happening at the grand finals aside from a list of palyers
if i wanted to know who would be palying id check the site
or are u just butthurt that i eliminated a tl member? i guess thats where the bo3 reference came from right?
That measures how many unspent resources you have vs your actual income, being on three bases wont give you a higher score if you have a lot of unspent resources, so you could be on 1 base cheesing and still get a high score...
Does that make you have a decent macro? ROFL
In Fact if you are collecting an average of 850 resources and unspending 250 resources your SQ would be : 87.5. EDIT: Try it yourself
LOOOOLs. It does mean he has decent macro actually because it speaks volumes about his build orders and early game timings (not necessarily attack, but when to build something) which while a lot of people downplay these days, is really essential and fundamental. Notice there still is a difference in SQ between the various rankings.
But seriously though, the fact that TT1 has a reputation as a cheesy player would not suggest that he's a cheesy player, but rather most of the community is just flat-out wrong in their perception.
On December 03 2011 01:17 Hrrrrm wrote: So many people want shit to be sugarcoated to "inflate" the hype and help ESPORTS. Nothing will hurt ESPORTS more than being dishonest about the reality of certain situations. Yes the timing is a little off, feels like Waxangel might've missed the deadline for this and should've been on the front page when the regular season ended or the playoffs. It's pointless to have something like this AFTER the Finals because barring any horrendous screw ups(Eagles), it'll be good-great and people would then claim the article is trying to put a wet blanket over a "successful finals event". Good article just late timing.
noones saying sugarcoat it but dont rip off the sugar thats already on it
theres plenty of amazing games, amazing players, and amazing casters and amazing shows (Live on three and the Day[9] daily) going on during the grand finals which is plenty to get me hyped and all the article does it talk about the regular season
no mention of the casters no mention of the games to be played no mention of the shows happening no information at all about whats actually going to be happening at the grand finals aside from a list of palyers
if i wanted to know who would be palying id check the site
On December 03 2011 01:17 Hrrrrm wrote: So many people want shit to be sugarcoated to "inflate" the hype and help ESPORTS. Nothing will hurt ESPORTS more than being dishonest about the reality of certain situations. Yes the timing is a little off, feels like Waxangel might've missed the deadline for this and should've been on the front page when the regular season ended or the playoffs. It's pointless to have something like this AFTER the Finals because barring any horrendous screw ups(Eagles), it'll be good-great and people would then claim the article is trying to put a wet blanket over a "successful finals event". Good article just late timing.
noones saying sugarcoat it but dont rip off the sugar thats already on it
theres plenty of amazing games, amazing players, and amazing casters and amazing shows (Live on three and the Day[9] daily) going on during the grand finals which is plenty to get me hyped and all the article does it talk about the regular season
no mention of the casters no mention of the games to be played no mention of the shows happening no information at all about whats actually going to be happening at the grand finals aside from a list of palyers
if i wanted to know who would be palying id check the site
It's true about the casters, and it isn't anybody trying to put them down. NASL isn't super appealing because it's hard to sit through them. I think if NASL is going to have any chance they need to find a new pair to cast the games daily. It's a legitimate topic to discuss if we're talking about why the event is having problems. This organization is a grass roots one, but I think it's time for them to make a big boy business decision and replace them for season :.
Step 1: Get rid of Gretorp, he was the worst part of season 1 ...... and they kept him???? It is very hard to watch their stream with that guy casting he is just horrible.
or are u just butthurt that i eliminated a tl member? i guess thats where the bo3 reference came from right?
That measures how many unspent resources you have vs your actual income, being on three bases wont give you a higher score if you have a lot of unspent resources, so you could be on 1 base cheesing and still get a high score...
Does that make you have a decent macro? ROFL
In Fact if you are collecting an average of 850 resources and unspending 250 resources your SQ would be : 87.5. EDIT: Try it yourself
LOOOOLs. It does mean he has decent macro actually because it speaks volumes about his build orders and early game timings (not necessarily attack, but when to build something) which while a lot of people downplay these days, is really essential and fundamental. Notice there still is a difference in SQ between the various rankings.
But seriously though, the fact that TT1 has a reputation as a cheesy player would not suggest that he's a cheesy player, but rather most of the community is just flat-out wrong in their perception.
You say they're wrong without giving any real evidence or support you know.
We've already established that having a high SQ does not necessarily make you a macro player. Indeed I believe we established that having a high SQ is also very important to aggressive players. Think about it: if you have a lot of hanging resources early on in the game, do you really think your early aggression is going to work? Doesn't matter how early you start making units if your SQ sucks. SQ is important to both macro and aggressive players (high SQ tends to mean better player, TT1 happens to have high SQ).
First off, who is "they"? If you mean people who say TT1 is a bad macro player? I do agree that it does not necessarily make you a macro player (in the you try to go for macro-games sense), but it does not mean your macro is bad.
Secondly, my first statement of evidence was the difference in SQ between the rankings still existing even in the early game and despite low resource collection in the same post he sourced. And I want to point out that having a tight build order is macro and there actually is macro in the early game even if it is considered to be easier.
Reading over your post I think we have a fundamental disagreement with the term macro since I include early game macro and see it as extremely important whereas you generally see macro as a player that goes for "macro games" which while relates to the term macro isn't necessarily macro. I'll admit that I could be wrong, but based on the SQ's idea of macro, TT1 has good macro though he isn't necessarily a macro-oriented player that goes for macro games more often than not.
I don't really want to argue that much because I don't actually disagree with anything you say... Actually I have nothing to say against your statements if I define them by your terms, though I think you're defining my statements by your terms.
or are u just butthurt that i eliminated a tl member? i guess thats where the bo3 reference came from right?
That measures how many unspent resources you have vs your actual income, being on three bases wont give you a higher score if you have a lot of unspent resources, so you could be on 1 base cheesing and still get a high score...
Does that make you have a decent macro? ROFL
In Fact if you are collecting an average of 850 resources and unspending 250 resources your SQ would be : 87.5. EDIT: Try it yourself
LOOOOLs. It does mean he has decent macro actually because it speaks volumes about his build orders and early game timings (not necessarily attack, but when to build something) which while a lot of people downplay these days, is really essential and fundamental. Notice there still is a difference in SQ between the various rankings.
But seriously though, the fact that TT1 has a reputation as a cheesy player would not suggest that he's a cheesy player, but rather most of the community is just flat-out wrong in their perception.
You say they're wrong without giving any real evidence or support you know.
We've already established that having a high SQ does not necessarily make you a macro player. Indeed I believe we established that having a high SQ is also very important to aggressive players. Think about it: if you have a lot of hanging resources early on in the game, do you really think your early aggression is going to work? Doesn't matter how early you start making units if your SQ sucks. SQ is important to both macro and aggressive players (high SQ tends to mean better player, TT1 happens to have high SQ).
it doesnt really say that your an early game player either though :D. it says how good your macro is, but thats not the same as being a macro player. its true that if you float 1000 minerals at 4 mins then your timing attack is going to suck. but floating 1k at 4 mins but then playing a "macro game" would suck too. high sq =~good macro, it doesnt say anything about if you rush or sit back and defence it. obviously its gets harder to keep your sq high the longer your average game is but that added information is needed before making any judgement. this is part of what makes idra so impressive with macro. not only does he has the highest sq but his average game length is the highest.
All the TT1 drama in the first few pages is great, I'm doing a study about the label of cheesey being used as a form of social control atm, keep up the bitching please <3
On December 03 2011 02:22 SolidMustard wrote: Nice. Does Waxangel realize the management team is brand new in ESWC and is not the one who was known for not paying prize money ?
Probably not. Has this new management team paid out money yet to demonstrate that they are better?
On December 03 2011 01:17 Hrrrrm wrote: So many people want shit to be sugarcoated to "inflate" the hype and help ESPORTS. Nothing will hurt ESPORTS more than being dishonest about the reality of certain situations. Yes the timing is a little off, feels like Waxangel might've missed the deadline for this and should've been on the front page when the regular season ended or the playoffs. It's pointless to have something like this AFTER the Finals because barring any horrendous screw ups(Eagles), it'll be good-great and people would then claim the article is trying to put a wet blanket over a "successful finals event". Good article just late timing.
noones saying sugarcoat it but dont rip off the sugar thats already on it
theres plenty of amazing games, amazing players, and amazing casters and amazing shows (Live on three and the Day[9] daily) going on during the grand finals which is plenty to get me hyped and all the article does it talk about the regular season
no mention of the casters no mention of the games to be played no mention of the shows happening no information at all about whats actually going to be happening at the grand finals aside from a list of palyers
if i wanted to know who would be palying id check the site
why name an article after the NASL finals, then not mention the NASL finals?
It's the preview of the Finals, with all the players presented in an interesting way. Combined with the LR thread there is pretty much everything you could want. Why are you having a problem with this?
As someone said previously, how is there not one mention of having both Live on Three and a Day9 daily live from thevent? This is clearly a response to the MLG's attempt at a live SOTG and I don't think NASL gets much credit for the efforts they put into providing a live experience. Poor article aside ("Stumbling Toward the Finish Line....wtf?"), the graphics by Memo are fantastic
On December 03 2011 02:22 SolidMustard wrote: Nice. Does Waxangel realize the management team is brand new in ESWC and is not the one who was known for not paying prize money ?
Probably not. Has this new management team paid out money yet to demonstrate that they are better?
On December 03 2011 01:17 Hrrrrm wrote: So many people want shit to be sugarcoated to "inflate" the hype and help ESPORTS. Nothing will hurt ESPORTS more than being dishonest about the reality of certain situations. Yes the timing is a little off, feels like Waxangel might've missed the deadline for this and should've been on the front page when the regular season ended or the playoffs. It's pointless to have something like this AFTER the Finals because barring any horrendous screw ups(Eagles), it'll be good-great and people would then claim the article is trying to put a wet blanket over a "successful finals event". Good article just late timing.
noones saying sugarcoat it but dont rip off the sugar thats already on it
theres plenty of amazing games, amazing players, and amazing casters and amazing shows (Live on three and the Day[9] daily) going on during the grand finals which is plenty to get me hyped and all the article does it talk about the regular season
no mention of the casters no mention of the games to be played no mention of the shows happening no information at all about whats actually going to be happening at the grand finals aside from a list of palyers
if i wanted to know who would be palying id check the site
why name an article after the NASL finals, then not mention the NASL finals?
It's the preview of the Finals, with all the players presented in an interesting way. Combined with the LR thread there is pretty much everything you could want. Why are you having a problem with this?
its an article thats supposed to be talking about the finals that only bashs the regular season
if it was called "a bumpy road to the finals" or "almost at the finishing line" or something that would imply its talking about the season leading up to the finals i would understand
I don't understand why there is criticism of NASL in the NASL hype thread. If TL staff feels strongly about it, they should write another thread. This is the equivalent of an ESPN writer with an article about Fox's Super Bowl coverage, covering the game and whatnot, but then throwing in somewhere that the network's cameras aren't so good or the commentators are not as knowledgeable . It just seems so out of place.
or are u just butthurt that i eliminated a tl member? i guess thats where the bo3 reference came from right?
That measures how many unspent resources you have vs your actual income, being on three bases wont give you a higher score if you have a lot of unspent resources, so you could be on 1 base cheesing and still get a high score...
Does that make you have a decent macro? ROFL
In Fact if you are collecting an average of 850 resources and unspending 250 resources your SQ would be : 87.5. EDIT: Try it yourself
LOOOOLs. It does mean he has decent macro actually because it speaks volumes about his build orders and early game timings (not necessarily attack, but when to build something) which while a lot of people downplay these days, is really essential and fundamental. Notice there still is a difference in SQ between the various rankings.
But seriously though, the fact that TT1 has a reputation as a cheesy player would not suggest that he's a cheesy player, but rather most of the community is just flat-out wrong in their perception.
You say they're wrong without giving any real evidence or support you know.
We've already established that having a high SQ does not necessarily make you a macro player. Indeed I believe we established that having a high SQ is also very important to aggressive players. Think about it: if you have a lot of hanging resources early on in the game, do you really think your early aggression is going to work? Doesn't matter how early you start making units if your SQ sucks. SQ is important to both macro and aggressive players (high SQ tends to mean better player, TT1 happens to have high SQ).
It's very easy to keep your ressources down when one-basing, while actually when going into maxed-army situation and pooling ressources for the remax will make your score worse. This measure is pointless actually.
Wow something that dares objectively criticize NASL, grand work
Nice writeup, I'm not sure who I am rooting for to be honest, I'm hoping some new blood wins it (or rather some old blood that has yet to win something major yet). If nothing else then Sheth or IdrA.
or are u just butthurt that i eliminated a tl member? i guess thats where the bo3 reference came from right?
That measures how many unspent resources you have vs your actual income, being on three bases wont give you a higher score if you have a lot of unspent resources, so you could be on 1 base cheesing and still get a high score...
Does that make you have a decent macro? ROFL
In Fact if you are collecting an average of 850 resources and unspending 250 resources your SQ would be : 87.5. EDIT: Try it yourself
LOOOOLs. It does mean he has decent macro actually because it speaks volumes about his build orders and early game timings (not necessarily attack, but when to build something) which while a lot of people downplay these days, is really essential and fundamental. Notice there still is a difference in SQ between the various rankings.
But seriously though, the fact that TT1 has a reputation as a cheesy player would not suggest that he's a cheesy player, but rather most of the community is just flat-out wrong in their perception.
You say they're wrong without giving any real evidence or support you know.
We've already established that having a high SQ does not necessarily make you a macro player. Indeed I believe we established that having a high SQ is also very important to aggressive players. Think about it: if you have a lot of hanging resources early on in the game, do you really think your early aggression is going to work? Doesn't matter how early you start making units if your SQ sucks. SQ is important to both macro and aggressive players (high SQ tends to mean better player, TT1 happens to have high SQ).
It's very easy to keep your ressources down when one-basing, while actually when going into maxed-army situation and pooling ressources for the remax will make your score worse. This measure is pointless actually.
The measure is pointless only if used out of context and incorrectly. For instance, if we were to watch a huge macro TvZ where both players end up on a lot of bases with constant aggression, a comparison of players' SQ would have some informative value
I'm really glad Liquid has the brass balls (read: BAWLZ) to come out and talk about the NASL S2 being what it truly is: simply lackluster. The community needs to be critical as so many leagues are out. In the end, all the criticism should improve quality of all leagues. It's just refreshing to hear things non-sugar coated here in contrast to some...*cough* Inctrl SotG * cough* broadcasts.
Looking forward to the NASL finals. There is alot of great foreign talent, and surely some great matches coming up. I hope they are able to pull off another great finals like last season.
As far as the OP, graphics are awesome, and while the player + tournament comparisons are funny, I agree with previous posters and feel like this is out of place. Of course there is a time and place to criticize NASL for its shortcomings, but its not right before the finals. There is a great roster of foreign competitors in the finals, and in a hype thread that should be the focus. That negativity in the OP is overshadowing whats really important. IMHO, wait until after the finals to judge like this please.
very nice article, you didn't pull any punches and delivered a no fluff article which was much better than the fluff filled discussions about NASL on SotG , ITG, and LO3. finally a good representation of what many of us actually feel about NASL.
On December 03 2011 02:57 neoghaleon55 wrote: I'm really glad Liquid has the brass balls (read: BAWLZ) to come out and talk about the NASL S2 being what it truly is: simply lackluster. The community needs to be critical as so many leagues are out. In the end, all the criticism should improve quality of all leagues. It's just refreshing to hear things non-sugar coated here in contrast to some...*cough* Inctrl SotG * cough* broadcasts.
i dont know about you but this weekend NASL looks amazing and i dont get why people are picking now to critisize
were looking at great games from great players with some great live shows going on i dont get why people are so determined to make NASL look so terrible and i dont get how anyone can say that the finals are going to be terrible
I'm actually glad TL is able to be critical and brutally honest in writeups. No reason for fluffy posts pretending everything's amazing as we preview the upcoming finals and as it turns out I feel the exact same way about NASL so hopefully they have a great finals to make up for another poorly done season.
Excellent article! Its quite satisfying to have all the fans's gripes about NASL so succinctly and eloquently stated. Their pricing policy is ridiculous for the quality that they offer. It is indeed poor value for money!
On December 03 2011 03:09 xBillehx wrote: I'm actually glad TL is able to be critical and brutally honest in writeups. No reason for fluffy posts pretending everything's amazing as we preview the upcoming finals and as it turns out I feel the exact same way about NASL so hopefully they have a great finals to make up for another poorly done season.
Hoping for a Hero vs Puma Finals! :D
The issue isn't whether TL is "able" to be critical in writeups in general. The issue is that it purported to be a finals preview when it actually just bashed the NASL regular season. It barely even mentioned the finals.
On December 03 2011 03:09 xBillehx wrote: I'm actually glad TL is able to be critical and brutally honest in writeups. No reason for fluffy posts pretending everything's amazing as we preview the upcoming finals and as it turns out I feel the exact same way about NASL so hopefully they have a great finals to make up for another poorly done season.
Hoping for a Hero vs Puma Finals! :D
why couldnt they have written an article about the finals then after the finals write what they thought of season 2?
I'm fine with having opinions, but ugh. This just doesn't get me excited for the NASL
And the whole TT1 kind of thing is stupid, he's no more cheesy than half the players there, and there are people on TL that are just as cheesy as him. The poll was especially dumb. Reputation =/= truth.
Article is very good, these thoughts are also mine for a long time but i really feel that this article should be written some weeks ago and not now, right before the tournament.
This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney?
On December 03 2011 03:09 xBillehx wrote: I'm actually glad TL is able to be critical and brutally honest in writeups. No reason for fluffy posts pretending everything's amazing as we preview the upcoming finals and as it turns out I feel the exact same way about NASL so hopefully they have a great finals to make up for another poorly done season.
Hoping for a Hero vs Puma Finals! :D
The issue isn't whether TL is "able" to be critical in writeups in general. The issue is that it purported to be a finals preview when it actually just bashed the NASL regular season. It barely even mentioned the finals.
Uh... if you read the player as league comparison that is the preview for the final written up in an interesting and entertaining way. There are plenty of other sources where you can read up about the actual bracket.
To all the haters on this thread, Team Liquid's writers should be praised for having the balls to out right point out all the flaw of NASL. If you want some fluff hype about the finals, go watch SOTG and ITG and listen to Incontrol's rambling.
On December 03 2011 03:00 jnsjr wrote: Looking forward to the NASL finals. There is alot of great foreign talent, and surely some great matches coming up. I hope they are able to pull off another great finals like last season.
As far as the OP, graphics are awesome, and while the player + tournament comparisons are funny, I agree with previous posters and feel like this is out of place. Of course there is a time and place to criticize NASL for its shortcomings, but its not right before the finals. There is a great roster of foreign competitors in the finals, and in a hype thread that should be the focus. That negativity in the OP is overshadowing whats really important. IMHO, wait until after the finals to judge like this please.
I think it's been on everyone's mind for a long time. As the finals are closing in, more and more people talk about the flaws of the NASL. Most of my friends and myself don't even plan on watching it simply because the league thus far have not been very exciting. The OP addressed some of these concerns directly while hyping the tournament is a great way to appease anti-fans while catering to fans alike.
I've purchased tickets for both seasons of NASL and, as a paying customer, I fully endorse this anti-hype article from TL. The article cuts to the core of what is wrong with the NASL and why I won't be returning for a third season (barring some major overhauls).
Love how TL took the kiddie gloves off for this one. Kudos brothers.
On December 03 2011 03:09 xBillehx wrote: I'm actually glad TL is able to be critical and brutally honest in writeups. No reason for fluffy posts pretending everything's amazing as we preview the upcoming finals and as it turns out I feel the exact same way about NASL so hopefully they have a great finals to make up for another poorly done season.
Hoping for a Hero vs Puma Finals! :D
The issue isn't whether TL is "able" to be critical in writeups in general. The issue is that it purported to be a finals preview when it actually just bashed the NASL regular season. It barely even mentioned the finals.
Uh... if you read the player as league comparison that is the preview for the final written up in an interesting and entertaining way. There are plenty of other sources where you can read up about the actual bracket.
To all the haters on this thread, Team Liquid's writers should be praised for having the balls to out right point out all the flaw of NASL. If you want some fluff hype about the finals, go watch SOTG and ITG and listen to Incontrol's rambling.
i opened this article becuase i wanted to read about the finals, hence why i opened an article named NASL S2 finals, what i got was them wining about the NASL S2 regular seasons
if i wanted to hear mroe bashing i didnt care about i would go somewhere else
i was interested in reading about the NASL finals, the casters, the match ups, the rivalries, the predictions, i didnt get any of that
On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote: This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney?
Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota?
There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization.
On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote: This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney?
Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota?
There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization.
You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community"
On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote: This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney?
Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota?
There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization.
You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community"
Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion.
On December 03 2011 03:09 xBillehx wrote: I'm actually glad TL is able to be critical and brutally honest in writeups. No reason for fluffy posts pretending everything's amazing as we preview the upcoming finals and as it turns out I feel the exact same way about NASL so hopefully they have a great finals to make up for another poorly done season.
Hoping for a Hero vs Puma Finals! :D
The issue isn't whether TL is "able" to be critical in writeups in general. The issue is that it purported to be a finals preview when it actually just bashed the NASL regular season. It barely even mentioned the finals.
Uh... if you read the player as league comparison that is the preview for the final written up in an interesting and entertaining way. There are plenty of other sources where you can read up about the actual bracket.
To all the haters on this thread, Team Liquid's writers should be praised for having the balls to out right point out all the flaw of NASL. If you want some fluff hype about the finals, go watch SOTG and ITG and listen to Incontrol's rambling.
Refer to the Dreamhack Winter preview article for an idea of what an actual event preview is. Waxangel's tidbits about the players' history (which is what his comparisons to the tournaments amount to) don't cut it.
And like the guy I quoted, you pretended the "haters" are taking issue only with the fact that TL writers criticized NASL. That's not the issue at all.
On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote: This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney?
Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota?
There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization.
You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community"
Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion.
noone loves every caster no matter what casters they get theyd get a long line of complaints that the casters are terrible and they should be changed
It's really disappointing that NASL doesn't want to compete with Dreamhack and IPL, it just doesn't even want to try to offer what they offer. There is no argument that can really be made for the tournaments, it's a definitively inferior product that has a much greater asking price.
It's absurd really, particularly when looking at things like the 360p limit for non-ticket holders.
On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote: This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney?
Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota?
There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization.
You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community"
Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion.
I honestly don't have a problem with Gretorp's casting, it's just the general NASL production that literally can not compare with IPL or Dreamhack. In terms of flat offerings such as resolution, they're offering an inferior product at a greater price.
The GSL can do this because they're the one big Korean tournament with the best players in the world, they aren't in direct competition with Dreamhack and IPL because of the way it's run. NASL isn't in the same boat, it is in direct competition with Dreamhack and IPL, they should at least be trying to compete.
Refer to the Dreamhack Winter preview article for an idea of what an actual event preview is. Waxangel's tidbits about the players' history (which is what his comparisons to the tournaments amount to) don't cut it.
And like the guy I quoted, you pretended the "haters" are taking issue only with the fact that TL writers criticized NASL. That's not the issue at all.
I'm thinking that general lack of enthusiasm for this league has hit even waxangel... But I agree, this preview isn't up to par with his other works.
It would appear many TLers want pure hype, even though hype is hard to come by (and undeserved) for some events (read: NASL).
Thank you WaxAngel for calling out the casters. When I do it, I get warned. Loved the honesty and critical nature of the article. Not everything has to read like a fangasm on here.
On December 03 2011 03:46 Mordiford wrote: It's really disappointing that NASL doesn't want to compete with Dreamhack and IPL, it just doesn't even want to try to offer what they offer. There is no argument that can really be made for the tournaments, it's a definitively inferior product that has a much greater asking price.
It's absurd really, particularly when looking at things like the 360p limit for non-ticket holders.
On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote: This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney?
Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota?
There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization.
You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community"
Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion.
I honestly don't have a problem with Gretorp's casting, it's just the general NASL production that literally can not compare with IPL or Dreamhack. In terms of flat offerings such as resolution, they're offering an inferior product at a greater price.
The GSL can do this because they're the one big Korean tournament with the best players in the world, they aren't in direct competition with Dreamhack and IPL because of the way it's run. NASL isn't in the same boat, it is in direct competition with Dreamhack and IPL, they should at least be trying to compete.
I think the general feeling amongst alot of spectators that NASL has poor value for money has been really bad for them. I also think that they underestimate SC2 fans in general. We can clearly compare what NASL offer to IPL/Dreamhack/MLG. If this final of NASL is also 360p for non ticket holders then they can wave their adds revenue good bye. I certainly wont be watching and I think a lot of people would also skip it.
On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote: This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney?
Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota?
There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization.
You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community"
Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion.
noone loves every caster no matter what casters they get theyd get a long line of complaints that the casters are terrible and they should be changed
Er..no..? Don't think anyone complains about Tastosis. Apollo, day9, DJwheat etc do a fantastic job and the crowd can tell. They are one of the reasons why MLG is so successful.
On December 03 2011 03:57 IPA wrote: It would appear many TLers want pure hype, even though hype is hard to come by (and undeserved) for some events (read: NASL).
Oh shut up, an off-line event with this great line-up fighting for $100k and with so many good casters deserves a certain amount of hype no matter what. Take your hate elsewhere.
On December 03 2011 03:57 IPA wrote: It would appear many TLers want pure hype, even though hype is hard to come by (and undeserved) for some events (read: NASL).
Oh shut up, an off-line event with this great line-up fighting for $100k and with so many good casters deserves a certain amount of hype no matter what. Take your hate elsewhere.
They're delivering a product, ultimately. People are just comparing it to others out there, namely Dreamhack, IPL, MLG. NASL isn't even trying to compete with them while expecting viewers to pay more.
Everyone has every right to criticize an event that seems to be fine with failing to live up to it's competitors while overcharging.
I really like the long format. More like the old BW star leagues. All the pressure and fatigue that goes along with weekend events takes away from the quality of the games.
On December 03 2011 03:00 jnsjr wrote: Looking forward to the NASL finals. There is alot of great foreign talent, and surely some great matches coming up. I hope they are able to pull off another great finals like last season.
As far as the OP, graphics are awesome, and while the player + tournament comparisons are funny, I agree with previous posters and feel like this is out of place. Of course there is a time and place to criticize NASL for its shortcomings, but its not right before the finals. There is a great roster of foreign competitors in the finals, and in a hype thread that should be the focus. That negativity in the OP is overshadowing whats really important. IMHO, wait until after the finals to judge like this please.
I think it's been on everyone's mind for a long time. As the finals are closing in, more and more people talk about the flaws of the NASL. Most of my friends and myself don't even plan on watching it simply because the league thus far have not been very exciting. The OP addressed some of these concerns directly while hyping the tournament is a great way to appease anti-fans while catering to fans alike.
Hm, not watching the finals with some of the best foreigners "simply" because you didn't like the regular season? I'm not sure what effect their rather boring regular season will have on the games in the finals given the line up, but okay, that is your prerogative. I didn't watch the regular season, but will definitely tune in to see Idra, Huk, Demuslim, Sen, Dimaga, Morrow, Puma, Sheth ... (you get the point) play some great games. If you really hate NASL that much that you would rather miss these great games as a way to protest, by all means go for it.
Anyway, I do agree with what you are saying concerning the flaws of NASL, but you haven't addressed the central criticism of my post, which was that a hype thread/preview thread is not the right place for these criticisms. I don't think people are disagreeing with the criticisms. NASL has some major flaws that other tournaments don't and never had; that doesn't change the fact that a finals preview/hype thread is not the place for it.
Edit: There are event (or season in this case) wrap up threads for these sort of valid criticisms. Even a mid-season review of NASL would be better, but this type of article right before their grand finals is a bit much IMHO.
Long leagues work in Korea, where physical area is small and all players can be at the studio every match. Since America is huge, it means less exciting (imo) online games, or only players in a small area. A solution could be divisions based on geographical location, but all members of, say, EG would be in the same division, which would suck. Interesting to see how MLG will solve this with the (rumored) long format in 2012.
Why should NASL be blamed for the greediness of the Korean teams? They proposed multiple offers and were denied. This article would've been better as two I guess.
On December 03 2011 03:45 Doodsmack wrote: Refer to the Dreamhack Winter preview article for an idea of what an actual event preview is. Waxangel's tidbits about the players' history (which is what his comparisons to the tournaments amount to) don't cut it.
In fairness, the DH Winter preview was sort of a stroke of luck. We borrowed HayprO for a little while, recorded the conversation, and while we were doing it TLO came over to ask what was going on. It was one of those cases where everything was in the right place and it all worked out. Even then, given the weird format and the time taken to transcribe, we didn't finish it until about 3am the night before the tournament began.
Not sure if this gives too much insight into the process...
On December 03 2011 03:57 IPA wrote: It would appear many TLers want pure hype, even though hype is hard to come by (and undeserved) for some events (read: NASL).
Oh shut up, an off-line event with this great line-up fighting for $100k and with so many good casters deserves a certain amount of hype no matter what. Take your hate elsewhere.
They're delivering a product, ultimately. People are just comparing it to others out there, namely Dreamhack, IPL, MLG. NASL isn't even trying to compete with them while expecting viewers to pay more.
Everyone has every right to criticize an event that seems to be fine with failing to live up to it's competitors while overcharging.
Yeah and I agree with much of the criticism but going over the shortcomings of the regular season doesn't belong in the Grand Final preview/hype thread. It's just common sense and decency.
for the people comparing NASL to dreamhack, thats apples to oranges
and im sure many people will immediately say im wrong without reading any farther but ehre goes the main season of NASL isnt like any other tournament its basically a couple months long group play its basically like the first 2 days of MLG stretched out for months
then theres the finals with is the oranges to dreamhacks oranges the finals have good casters, good games, good venue, good entertainment like the live shows going on
i dont get how people can complain about the casters when DjWheat, Day[9], mr.bitter, husky and rotterdam will be there so you cant say the casting will be terrible
the players are nothing short of spectacular and are the lineup youd expect from IPLs and dreamhacks so you cant complain about the talent, imo its about the best line up you can get with the bulk of koreans refusing to join unless the path is paved with money
its 10$ if you buy a pass now so you cant really complain about the price
you cant complain (yet) about the stream since we havent seen the stream yet
so really i dont see any reasons to complain about this weekend sure the regular season may have flaws, and your welcome to skip it, but the finals are looking amazing
On December 03 2011 04:19 Doof wrote: I really like the long format. More like the old BW star leagues. All the pressure and fatigue that goes along with weekend events takes away from the quality of the games.
Every single game mattered in old BW Star Leagues. They don't even play that many games btw so I don't know what you think fatigue comes in to it at all. It was just spread out but small number of games.
Oooooh, my Gooooood. So excited. Hoping to see some DeMuslim, been a while since he's been a presence. So many EG, Liquid and Mouz people in this, almost unnerving.
well i prefer the nasl format over the one weekend things like dreamhack, because you can prepare for your opponent, which means more interesting games, while these weekend events are just standard skill, with only small adaptions from the general playstyle (thats why you see such walkthroughs in mlg and stuff). Hehe atleast that what i was used too. people don't seem to prepare anymore for the opponent and just do their standard thing because sc2 consists out of 10 tournaments a day, with a few exceptions in the gsl and outside of it. I don't mind and i have the gsl for the really cool games, but it would be nice if nasl would turn out the same way hehe, so i am cheering for them.
On December 03 2011 03:20 InvalidID wrote: This just feels like a rehashing of the same tired criticisms of NASL that seem to unfairly get piled on them. Both NASL and IPL have long broadcast delays for regular season play, both NASL and IPL had technical problems early in their first live event, and both have pretty similar viewer numbers for their regular season content. I don't understand the criticism of their casters, they are also roughly equivalent to the types of casters that daily events like their regular season typically get. Do you expect a small western organization to be able to afford retaining a day9 or a tastosis for a daily tourney?
Quality casting has been a problem at the NASL for a very long time, since its inception. There are a lot of excellent casters out there on sc2casts.com who I'm sure won't mind a casting day job: Psy, Force, Ahnaris, Crota?
There's absolutely no reason NOT to comply with fans and the community and get more entertaining casters. I am sure they could reallocate Gretorp to a managing position or something instead, since he's shown to be vital to the organization.
You shouldn't pretend that your opinion of Gretorp represents the opinion of the "fans and the community"
Oh please, it is a common complaint amongst SC2 spectators that NASL's casters and Gretorp are lacklustre. So what Invalid writes does reflect the view of a lot of the fans. The viewer ship for NASL's regular season is proof that their business model is not doing great. Your point adds nothing to the discussion.
noone loves every caster no matter what casters they get theyd get a long line of complaints that the casters are terrible and they should be changed
Er..no..? Don't think anyone complains about Tastosis. Apollo, day9, DJwheat etc do a fantastic job and the crowd can tell. They are one of the reasons why MLG is so successful.
I have my nitpicks about Tastosis, but what he says is true. Nobody loves every caster. Almost everyone has a favorite caster, and a least favorite.
Came in the thread expecting "hype" or a preview on the NASL finals. Got a rant about how NASL regular season sucks.
0/10
If it's news about finals, write about finals. If it's an article about the reg season, write about that. Don't use this as a way to vent your gripes/frustrations with NASL, TBFH.
Anyways altho they are lacking a lot of koreans, the foreigners that made it are all pretty cool, and most of the iconic foreigners are there (where's whitera though? didn't join?)
wow falling quite far behind schedule already, sc2 intro was supposed to start at 11:45, i took my car into the shop expecting to beable to watch a few matches before i picked it up. This is BS
On December 03 2011 05:19 Audemed wrote: Came in the thread expecting "hype" or a preview on the NASL finals. Got a rant about how NASL regular season sucks.
0/10
If it's news about finals, write about finals. If it's an article about the reg season, write about that. Don't use this as a way to vent your gripes/frustrations with NASL, TBFH.
well its been a pretty dissapointing regular season (especially viewership wise) since the regular season is like 90% of what NASL is it makes sense to talk about what has happened, and how its important for them to make a good impression for these finals, going into season 3 and beyond.
IMO already off to a poor start with sc2 starting so late. looks like its about to start though , finally.
I decided to pay for this weekend, because im going to be in and out alot this weekend, so i hope the vods are posted in a timely manner so i will beable to catch up on day 1 late tonight, and be totally caught up going into day 2.
or are u just butthurt that i eliminated a tl member? i guess thats where the bo3 reference came from right?
That measures how many unspent resources you have vs your actual income, being on three bases wont give you a higher score if you have a lot of unspent resources, so you could be on 1 base cheesing and still get a high score...
Does that make you have a decent macro? ROFL
In Fact if you are collecting an average of 850 resources and unspending 250 resources your SQ would be : 87.5. EDIT: Try it yourself
LOOOOLs. It does mean he has decent macro actually because it speaks volumes about his build orders and early game timings (not necessarily attack, but when to build something) which while a lot of people downplay these days, is really essential and fundamental. Notice there still is a difference in SQ between the various rankings.
But seriously though, the fact that TT1 has a reputation as a cheesy player would not suggest that he's a cheesy player, but rather most of the community is just flat-out wrong in their perception.
You say they're wrong without giving any real evidence or support you know.
We've already established that having a high SQ does not necessarily make you a macro player. Indeed I believe we established that having a high SQ is also very important to aggressive players. Think about it: if you have a lot of hanging resources early on in the game, do you really think your early aggression is going to work? Doesn't matter how early you start making units if your SQ sucks. SQ is important to both macro and aggressive players (high SQ tends to mean better player, TT1 happens to have high SQ).
it doesnt really say that your an early game player either though :D. it says how good your macro is, but thats not the same as being a macro player. its true that if you float 1000 minerals at 4 mins then your timing attack is going to suck. but floating 1k at 4 mins but then playing a "macro game" would suck too. high sq =~good macro, it doesnt say anything about if you rush or sit back and defence it. obviously its gets harder to keep your sq high the longer your average game is but that added information is needed before making any judgement. this is part of what makes idra so impressive with macro. not only does he has the highest sq but his average game length is the highest.
I posted that to ilustrate that is not valid to say that your macro is decent based on SQ and having a history of 1-2 base play.
On December 03 2011 05:19 Audemed wrote: Came in the thread expecting "hype" or a preview on the NASL finals. Got a rant about how NASL regular season sucks.
0/10
If it's news about finals, write about finals. If it's an article about the reg season, write about that. Don't use this as a way to vent your gripes/frustrations with NASL, TBFH.
well its been a pretty dissapointing regular season (especially viewership wise) since the regular season is like 90% of what NASL is it makes sense to talk about what has happened, and how its important for them to make a good impression for these finals, going into season 3 and beyond.
IMO already off to a poor start with sc2 starting so late. looks like its about to start though , finally.
I decided to pay for this weekend, because im going to be in and out alot this weekend, so i hope the vods are posted in a timely manner so i will beable to catch up on day 1 late tonight, and be totally caught up going into day 2.
I can totally understand gripes with the regular season, however, this was supposed to be a "NASL Finals Preview", not a "NASL gripes and oh yeah there's finals this weekend".
While I completely agree with all of the points in the first article, it seems bizarre to include it in a writeup that is posted just before the final weekend. It would've probably been more appropriate to include it in the inevitable postmortem writeup that summarizes a concluded major event.
Personally, I skipped almost the entire regular season since there is currently too much high quality sc2 content being made every day for me to watch all of it. I will give the finals a shot and hope days 1 and 2 are better than season 1.
On December 03 2011 04:43 Forikorder wrote: for the people comparing NASL to dreamhack, thats apples to oranges
and im sure many people will immediately say im wrong without reading any farther but ehre goes the main season of NASL isnt like any other tournament its basically a couple months long group play its basically like the first 2 days of MLG stretched out for months
then theres the finals with is the oranges to dreamhacks oranges the finals have good casters, good games, good venue, good entertainment like the live shows going on
i dont get how people can complain about the casters when DjWheat, Day[9], mr.bitter, husky and rotterdam will be there so you cant say the casting will be terrible
the players are nothing short of spectacular and are the lineup youd expect from IPLs and dreamhacks so you cant complain about the talent, imo its about the best line up you can get with the bulk of koreans refusing to join unless the path is paved with money
its 10$ if you buy a pass now so you cant really complain about the price
you cant complain (yet) about the stream since we havent seen the stream yet
so really i dont see any reasons to complain about this weekend sure the regular season may have flaws, and your welcome to skip it, but the finals are looking amazing
The issue is the product is still inarguably inferior to certain competitors without even making the attempt to compete, even if you pull out Dreamhack because it's a shorter event, IPL does long running events with high quality streams and VODs. While it's understandable that one is backed by a major organization, in terms of comparing products, that doesn't matter, one is charging for an inferior product.
On December 03 2011 04:55 FeyFey wrote: well i prefer the nasl format over the one weekend things like dreamhack, because you can prepare for your opponent, which means more interesting games, while these weekend events are just standard skill, with only small adaptions from the general playstyle (thats why you see such walkthroughs in mlg and stuff). Hehe atleast that what i was used too. people don't seem to prepare anymore for the opponent and just do their standard thing because sc2 consists out of 10 tournaments a day, with a few exceptions in the gsl and outside of it. I don't mind and i have the gsl for the really cool games, but it would be nice if nasl would turn out the same way hehe, so i am cheering for them.
In theory I agree with you, SC2 is (obviously) a strategy game, so being able to play a strategy on your strengths and your opponents weaknesses is really awesome, can force a lot of mind games and really just adds a lot of depth in the MU.
That being said, it's really hard to keep up to date with such a format, it's such a time stealer, the games are often at awkward times(depending on time zone, I fx have EU to early, NA to late tt) and if you aren't really committed/have people to cheer with you, it just feels(to me atleast) harder to follow. Add in the amount of streams going on, and yer, it kind of makes me like these "over the weekend" tourneys a lot more, even if players can't practice their MU.
On December 03 2011 04:43 Forikorder wrote: for the people comparing NASL to dreamhack, thats apples to oranges
and im sure many people will immediately say im wrong without reading any farther but ehre goes the main season of NASL isnt like any other tournament its basically a couple months long group play its basically like the first 2 days of MLG stretched out for months
then theres the finals with is the oranges to dreamhacks oranges the finals have good casters, good games, good venue, good entertainment like the live shows going on
i dont get how people can complain about the casters when DjWheat, Day[9], mr.bitter, husky and rotterdam will be there so you cant say the casting will be terrible
the players are nothing short of spectacular and are the lineup youd expect from IPLs and dreamhacks so you cant complain about the talent, imo its about the best line up you can get with the bulk of koreans refusing to join unless the path is paved with money
its 10$ if you buy a pass now so you cant really complain about the price
you cant complain (yet) about the stream since we havent seen the stream yet
so really i dont see any reasons to complain about this weekend sure the regular season may have flaws, and your welcome to skip it, but the finals are looking amazing
The issue is the product is still inarguably inferior to certain competitors without even making the attempt to compete, even if you pull out Dreamhack because it's a shorter event, IPL does long running events with high quality streams and VODs. While it's understandable that one is backed by a major organization, in terms of comparing products, that doesn't matter, one is charging for an inferior product.
i dont see how the NASL finals weekend is an inferior product the last finals was amazing and this finals looks tob e amazing as well
On December 03 2011 04:43 Forikorder wrote: for the people comparing NASL to dreamhack, thats apples to oranges
and im sure many people will immediately say im wrong without reading any farther but ehre goes the main season of NASL isnt like any other tournament its basically a couple months long group play its basically like the first 2 days of MLG stretched out for months
then theres the finals with is the oranges to dreamhacks oranges the finals have good casters, good games, good venue, good entertainment like the live shows going on
i dont get how people can complain about the casters when DjWheat, Day[9], mr.bitter, husky and rotterdam will be there so you cant say the casting will be terrible
the players are nothing short of spectacular and are the lineup youd expect from IPLs and dreamhacks so you cant complain about the talent, imo its about the best line up you can get with the bulk of koreans refusing to join unless the path is paved with money
its 10$ if you buy a pass now so you cant really complain about the price
you cant complain (yet) about the stream since we havent seen the stream yet
so really i dont see any reasons to complain about this weekend sure the regular season may have flaws, and your welcome to skip it, but the finals are looking amazing
The issue is the product is still inarguably inferior to certain competitors without even making the attempt to compete, even if you pull out Dreamhack because it's a shorter event, IPL does long running events with high quality streams and VODs. While it's understandable that one is backed by a major organization, in terms of comparing products, that doesn't matter, one is charging for an inferior product.
i dont see how the NASL finals weekend is an inferior product the last finals was amazing and this finals looks tob e amazing as well
There's some very inarguable issues, the most outstanding and easiest to point to are the sound production and the resolution available. 360p is the unpaid default, compared that to Dreamhack or to IPL. It's definitively inferior.
On December 03 2011 06:00 Squide wrote: Wow.. the crowd is so thin i expected alot more I hope that in the final day it will go INZANE
I don't know what to say, other than that I'm kind of embarrassed ... Poor players coming out to a giant empty room with nothing but a red carpet and like one photographer :-/
Well, NASL is a massive fail! I just check out their stream with 360p resolution for unpaid default??? I think they are showing absolute contempt for regular SC2 fans by not showing in better quality in this grand final. The quality is absolutely trash! They have an inferior product and they are trying to rip us off? Good luck with that.
On December 03 2011 03:57 IPA wrote: It would appear many TLers want pure hype, even though hype is hard to come by (and undeserved) for some events (read: NASL).
Oh shut up, an off-line event with this great line-up fighting for $100k and with so many good casters deserves a certain amount of hype no matter what. Take your hate elsewhere.
This is a forum, where people come to share disparate opinions in a (hopefully) non-hostile environment. My opinion is different than yours -- you're going to have to learn to deal with that. See how that works?
I've supported NASL with my dollars for two seasons. I'm able to criticize their product as I see fit. There's a difference between "criticism" and "hate", as you'll discover.
I think the quality should at least be free up to 720p. Every other tournament has at least that option without paying a dime. NASL should be no exception.
On December 03 2011 06:02 Young_Gun wrote: Well, NASL is a massive fail! I just check out their stream with 360p resolution for unpaid default??? I think they are showing absolute contempt for regular SC2 fans by not showing in better quality in this grand final. The quality is absolutely trash! They have an inferior product and they are trying to rip us off? Good luck with that.
360p is good enough imo. Do you need to see the worms crawling around in the grass? It's free!
If people are complaining about casters not doing this or that or SC2 being a sport or not, none if it matters if they don't "support" (by watching a FREE stream) it.
Let's just hope the games are good. If not, then I guess the complainers win in the sense that NASL goes to hell.
On December 03 2011 06:02 Young_Gun wrote: Well, NASL is a massive fail! I just check out their stream with 360p resolution for unpaid default??? I think they are showing absolute contempt for regular SC2 fans by not showing in better quality in this grand final. The quality is absolutely trash! They have an inferior product and they are trying to rip us off? Good luck with that.
360p is good enough imo. Do you need to see the worms crawling around in the grass? It's free!
If people are complaining about casters not doing this or that or SC2 being a sport or not, none if it matters if they don't "support" (by watching a FREE stream) it.
Let's just hope the games are good. If not, then I guess the complainers win in the sense that NASL goes to hell.
360p makes it difficult to even see the supply counts honestly, it's generally not a fun resolution to watch the game.
A number of the other products other people have named are free as well, and they offer higher resolutions. I would say that the NASL should at least allowed up to 480p without a ticket, that's still sub HD.
On December 03 2011 06:10 Prplppleatr wrote: Looks like the marketing department might of blown this one...hopefully ppl are just at work and thats why the low attendance..i hope
I still <3 NASL and think it will be a great tournie, but with showings of 10-15ppl...not much of an atmosphere, so far
On December 03 2011 06:02 Young_Gun wrote: Well, NASL is a massive fail! I just check out their stream with 360p resolution for unpaid default??? I think they are showing absolute contempt for regular SC2 fans by not showing in better quality in this grand final. The quality is absolutely trash! They have an inferior product and they are trying to rip us off? Good luck with that.
360p is good enough imo. Do you need to see the worms crawling around in the grass? It's free!
If people are complaining about casters not doing this or that or SC2 being a sport or not, none if it matters if they don't "support" (by watching a FREE stream) it.
Let's just hope the games are good. If not, then I guess the complainers win in the sense that NASL goes to hell.
360p makes it difficult to even see the supply counts honestly, it's generally not a fun resolution to watch the game.
A number of the other products other people have named are free as well, and they offer higher resolutions. I would say that the NASL should at least allowed up to 480p without a ticket, that's still sub HD.
Then again, the more popular something is, the more you seem to get for free since there is more money involved. I will admit that I don't know where NASL is on the scale compared to its analogues, but you see the supply numbers clear enough if you sit in front of a computer, you don't need to see the EXACT number. The casters (if they're competent) should note important stuff like supply deficits etc anyway.
I get your point though, but its free and good enough. But it's just sad to watch with this kind of audience :-(
It' feels like Nasl is paying everything that happened in the previous season with the interests... Mountains of money means nothing when they aren't paired with solid planning and common sense.
Guess they started too ambitiously instead of building a fanbase.
Well, I hope the games will make up for everything... after all it all comes down to that.
Im sorry, i know it is not NASL's fault...but Gretorp has always been soooooo quiet and i have to turn my volume full blast just to understand him...then i get a Wyoming commercial (which i realize they have no control over) that is INSANELY LOUD and i just go deaf....sorry, but not going to watch until there are players on that i want to watch....unfortunate, but it is ridiculous how large of a difference in volume when no settings change
EDIT: please raise casters volume so i don't have to go deaf to listen to cast
i hope like i have never ever hoped before that NASL gets thair shit together cuz that what they are showing now is crap and i really wish for more people to show up so the players and casters have fun and i wish for a good and smoth production so the ones that are there dont regret it .
On December 03 2011 06:27 MavivaM wrote: It' feels like Nasl is paying everything that happened in the previous season with the interests... Mountains of money means nothing when they aren't paired with solid planning and common sense.
Guess they started too ambitiously instead of building a fanbase.
Well, I hope the games will make up for everything... after all it all comes down to that.
are you implying they actually have the money available something like dreamhack has? just curious, would like a source.
On December 03 2011 06:27 MavivaM wrote: It' feels like Nasl is paying everything that happened in the previous season with the interests... Mountains of money means nothing when they aren't paired with solid planning and common sense.
Guess they started too ambitiously instead of building a fanbase.
Well, I hope the games will make up for everything... after all it all comes down to that.
are you implying they actually have the money available something like dreamhack has? just curious, would like a source.
Sorry, I'm not english and I have troubles to understand what you are asking ^^ If you are asking if they have the money I'd say yes: players from NASL season 1 have already been paid (at least Darkforce, according to one of his past posts) and that prizepool was huge.
You don't plan another tournament like that without having the money. If you are talking about how DH and NASL are different at spending their money, well...
On December 03 2011 06:27 MavivaM wrote: It' feels like Nasl is paying everything that happened in the previous season with the interests... Mountains of money means nothing when they aren't paired with solid planning and common sense.
Guess they started too ambitiously instead of building a fanbase.
Well, I hope the games will make up for everything... after all it all comes down to that.
are you implying they actually have the money available something like dreamhack has? just curious, would like a source.
Sorry, I'm not english and I have troubles to understand what you are asking ^^ If you are asking if they have the money I'd say yes: players from NASL season 1 have already been paid (at least Darkforce, according to one of his past posts) and that prizepool was huge.
You don't plan another tournament like that without having the money. If you are talking about how DH and NASL are different at spending their money, well...
On December 03 2011 03:09 xBillehx wrote: I'm actually glad TL is able to be critical and brutally honest in writeups. No reason for fluffy posts pretending everything's amazing as we preview the upcoming finals and as it turns out I feel the exact same way about NASL so hopefully they have a great finals to make up for another poorly done season.
Hoping for a Hero vs Puma Finals! :D
The issue isn't whether TL is "able" to be critical in writeups in general. The issue is that it purported to be a finals preview when it actually just bashed the NASL regular season. It barely even mentioned the finals.
Every finals preview will talk about what came before. There will be lots of people watching the finals that didn't watch a single game from the regular season. So it's appropriate.
But generally speaking you would talk about the games more than the production/organization, so it was a little odd. But on the other hand for a big chunk of people who skipped over NASL S2, all they knew was how many technical difficulties S1 had and the entire PR-fail with the Koreans pulling out (accusing the wrong people for starters...).
I guess it's unfortunately that NASL has been getting more press about NASL than the games even from the start (those application videos, select drama, ect), but it's oddly appropriate that the finals article would talk more about NASL the organization than NASL the event...
I do agree that even a simple road to the finals or cursory analysis of who was favored to finish where should be mandatory in these kinds of articles though.
Ok, i no longer blame Gretorp for the lack of volume (though he does speak way too soft), but now MrBitters mic volume is way off too...grr, never seem to get the sound right
EDIT: Gunrun came on and made the sounds 10X better and much more even, though still not even volume for the 2 casters...and now someone has changed it back W T F....this is really irritating
I feel really bad for all the players and casters who travelled all over the world to attend NASL finals. Joining an empty huge room, with 2 photographers and 4 fans trying to cheer up the weird atmopshere.
On December 03 2011 09:26 stansa wrote: I feel really bad for all the players and casters who travelled all over the world to attend NASL finals. Joining an empty huge room, with 2 photographers and 4 fans trying to cheer up the weird atmopshere.
Well the good news is that there's 30,000 fans supporting them via stream. That counts for something right?
Not having any sound issues here. I have only been watching since Brat_OK Dimaga, but from what I have seen so far they are doing a good job. Much better than last season.
im a bit taken back by this article the auther seem to have a grudge against tt1 who is easily top 5 foriegn protoss and at least the 2nd best protoss in this tourney with huk as #1. writing him off so easily and calling him cheesy when he is known worldwide for his macro just makes the auther look childish...
On December 03 2011 11:35 Juanald wrote: im a bit taken back by this article the auther seem to have a grudge against tt1 who is easily top 5 foriegn protoss and at least the 2nd best protoss in this tourney with huk as #1. writing him off so easily and calling him cheesy when he is known worldwide for his macro just makes the auther look childish...
After watching Sen crush him twice, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with TT1's PvZ ...
i asked u to back ur claim up and u respond by making a poll? lol
I mean, this argument is about reputation after all...
amongst who, bronze-diamond league players? thats exactly the problem that i have with those type of statements, your perpetuating a bullshit image when u have no idea what your talking about
if i cheese/allin in a few games that doesnt mean i dont know how to play macro games ^^
Oh dear lord! I must say I agree with OP in that the cost is way too high for what they are serving us. The production values are horrific to say the least. I want my 10 bucks back!!
On December 03 2011 11:35 Juanald wrote: im a bit taken back by this article the auther seem to have a grudge against tt1 who is easily top 5 foriegn protoss and at least the 2nd best protoss in this tourney with huk as #1. writing him off so easily and calling him cheesy when he is known worldwide for his macro just makes the auther look childish...
That is wrong on many levels. TT1 has gone nowhere in tournaments, and as seen in the games against Sen, he didn't even stand a chance against a good zerg.
Watching the NASL right now. what more can i say, i love watching sc2 games and all these games so far haven't been disappointing .
EG vs mouz it seems like these two teams are making up the tournament and with all the hype around the two teams, i hope i see morrow do good since he really has not placed well in a tournament for some but i loved him in sc1! so young and so good!
On December 03 2011 11:35 Juanald wrote: im a bit taken back by this article the auther seem to have a grudge against tt1 who is easily top 5 foriegn protoss and at least the 2nd best protoss in this tourney with huk as #1. writing him off so easily and calling him cheesy when he is known worldwide for his macro just makes the auther look childish...
That is wrong on many levels. TT1 has gone nowhere in tournaments, and as seen in the games against Sen, he didn't even stand a chance against a good zerg. As for best Protosses, HerO is better than HuK.
to be anal, hero is not a foreigner. i love him, but he is not a foreigner.
The starcraft games are great so far.. the experienced casters .. the very small number of fans making a very big noise.. I love them..
No problems there.. but.. everything else..
I mean whoever is involved in the production of the whole event needs to examine the direction they are going. One tiny post-it note for the sponsors in front of the most colorless casting desk? that's the start of a lengthy list (sorry).
Looking forward to great games, but NASL production needs to take a long hard look in the mirror at GOM/Dreamhack
On December 03 2011 11:35 Juanald wrote: im a bit taken back by this article the auther seem to have a grudge against tt1 who is easily top 5 foriegn protoss and at least the 2nd best protoss in this tourney with huk as #1. writing him off so easily and calling him cheesy when he is known worldwide for his macro just makes the auther look childish...
That is wrong on many levels. TT1 has gone nowhere in tournaments, and as seen in the games against Sen, he didn't even stand a chance against a good zerg. As for best Protosses, HerO is better than HuK.
to be anal, hero is not a foreigner. i love him, but he is not a foreigner.
Hmmm I for one really enjoy all the casters there. They're all really trying hard and doing an excellent job IMO. I definitely disagree about the OP comments regarding them.
I have to give props to NASL for the "WWE" style intro + music walk down the red carpet... at a larger event or something with a bit more live attendance, it could really let fans show some serious love.
Just leaving the venue now... I really like the stage and the production was great tonight, but the place is pretty dead unfortunately. =/
The audience is bigger than it probably looks on the streams because the seating is set up in a circular arrangement all around the stage with people spread all around the room, and the casters are in a bit of a strange spot facing only 5 rows of seats. Still pretty disappointing though, a little over 100 spectators or so.
Gotta give the all casters major props...some drunk assholes in the front were heckling and at some points literally trying to climb onto the stage during the Morrow v Mana series, but Husky and Bitter didn't so much as bat an eye and stayed focused on casting the game.
On December 03 2011 17:39 Gemini00 wrote: Just leaving the venue now... I really like the stage and the production was great tonight, but the place is pretty dead unfortunately. =/
The audience is bigger than it probably looks on the streams because the seating is set up in a circular arrangement all around the stage with people spread all around the room, and the casters are in a bit of a strange spot facing only 5 rows of seats. Still pretty disappointing though, a little over 100 spectators or so.
Gotta give the all casters major props...some drunk assholes in the front were heckling and at some points literally trying to climb onto the stage during the Morrow v Mana series, but Husky and Bitter didn't so much as bat an eye and stayed focused on casting the game.
Thanks for the post ... do you think more people will be there tomorrow?
Thanks for the post ... do you think more people will be there tomorrow?
I sure hope so! It was pretty sad to come in today and see so many empty chairs.
If I had to guess I would think there will definitely be more people tomorrow, though. Besides the obvious reason that it's the weekend, there's also probably some people who avoided coming today because on weekdays the rush hour traffic going into east LA where the event is being held is a huge pain.
On December 03 2011 16:46 felisconcolori wrote: I have to give props to NASL for the "WWE" style intro + music walk down the red carpet... at a larger event or something with a bit more live attendance, it could really let fans show some serious love.
Def agree with this. With a huge crowd that entrance would be pretty baller.
On December 03 2011 02:22 -RamPaGe- wrote: DeMuslim will pwn ThorZain, and Puma will destroy Sheth. Besides that, I think most of the predictions are accurate.
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
Lol wow...was looking around at brackets and the article and what not...Just realized this is in Ontario, CALIFORNIA, not canada...mentioned it on a chat and several others thought the same...wonder if this may be another possible reason for the lack of attendance
I am so jealous of Puma. I wish I could walk down a red carpet while Welcome to the Jungle plays as my entrance theme. Just for that, I want to see Puma win this again so I can hear more GNR.
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended
Well, that's the problem for NASL, everyone keeps on bashing it (true, it is not as exciting as MLG or IPL in my opinion) but it's still not a terrible tournament. But since everyone hears all the negativity, they forget the positives of the tournament. Don't worry though, if Liquid Hero wins, you will see articles instantly pop up saying how NASL was the biggest tournament of the year and how great it was.
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
Yeah, its cool-blooded. But of all the tournaments, NASL needs tough love. All the best intentions in the world isn't going to change the fact that they are spending a lot of money on a mediocre product that people aren't buying into. And the sad part is that a lot of the mistakes they're making were avoidable or cost nothing to fix.
On December 03 2011 02:54 minilance wrote: I am sad that TL critics NASL in the NASL hype thread. This does not have its place, we should all be exited that the NASL final is soon
TL lost some of my respect in this article...
Hope NASL is a blast
I wonder how many writers are held hostage by the hopes of maintaining respect from random internet users who in all likelihood show less or no respect in their daily dealings. Not that that necessarily defines you, good sir, but this is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the most annoying things to read.
Expectations are not something that deserve to be met just because you have them. Is this article's purpose to "hype" NASL only? I was probably going to let the whole thing slip by until I saw this article under "featured news."
I read elsewhere a complaint that the writers were pandering to popular opinion, but perhaps a popular opinion is held by a few writers too? Consider it a challenge for NASL season 2 finals not to suck. Personally, I'd like to see it go really well and for Koreans to come back if they think it's more professional this time around. Don't think of it as an ultimatum, but as them trying to make their time overseas well spent. Were the demands of sc2Con unreasonable? Probably, but SlayerS also backed out, and at least they did in a timely manner.
Also, TT1 argument was rather amusing. It's interesting that the SQ defense was largely turned on its head. At the end of the day, it's easier to have a good SQ on fewer bases...there are simply fewer actions to perform. That doesn't actually mean he doesn't have good macro though. It says literally nothing about that either.
If reputation is directly influenced by public opinion, then wouldn't this be a pretty effective way to find out who's right?
Obviously not a good measurement of reputation, especially in this biased context. Amongst people who actually know StarCraft II and follow TT1's games, they would know he's far from a cheesy player. He's a solid macro player based on execution and timing. Yes, he mixes cheese into play occasionally, but that's what every good player does. I find it weird that you call him a cheesy player and use that as the reason he can't win versus Sen. If anything, the reason might be that Sen is one of the best foreign Zergs right now.
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
Yes, exactly, that's what I meant.
TL articles are becoming that more and more for some reason. The thing with EG House (that was ridiculous), now shitting on the qualification of an event, one day before the final... That's seriously not what I want to read when I go on TL and I don't think i'm the only one.
Seriously, another one like that and I think that I will just stop to read articles from TL except for the probably incoming TSL4... because i'm sure that they will be just hyping this one and nothing else.
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
Yes, exactly, that's what I meant.
TL articles are becoming that more and more for some reason. The thing with EG House (that was ridiculous), now shitting on the qualification of an event, one day before the final... That's seriously not what I want to read when I go on TL and I don't think i'm the only one.
Seriously, another one like that and I think that I will just stop to read articles from TL except for the probably incoming TSL4... because i'm sure that they will be just hyping this one and nothing else.
They are just saying what everyone else is thinking and saying. Telling it like it is might seem harsh, but most people would agree that NASL has serious issues overall. Is TL supposed to talk sweetly about every single event just because it's an event?
TL shouldn't have to hype the NASL for the NASL, especially when there's nothing TO hype. I appreciate their honesty. I expect it's even possible that no one WANTED to write an article about NASL. There was a quote about reviews for the Nintendo Wii, all the reviewers drew straws and the one who got the short straw had to review the Wii. Someone got the short straw and had to write about the NASL.
It says forty thousand people are viewing the nasl stream. Yeah there aren't too many people there, but I think it'd be sick if they were, with that red carpet entrance haha. I guess as a community we decided "fluff" wasn't acceptable and started getting critical of each other. Personally I think articles like this do more to kill esports than grow it. It's one thing to call out tournaments that treat the people involved like crap, but the timing of criticism of the article just hit me wrong. I came here thinking I'd find some matchups, but I had to skim through a mountain of text about why NASL is dead first.
Many people are sheeple, so you have to be careful what message you convey. If they didn't think NASL was finished before this post, they might think otherwise now.
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
Yes, exactly, that's what I meant.
TL articles are becoming that more and more for some reason. The thing with EG House (that was ridiculous), now shitting on the qualification of an event, one day before the final... That's seriously not what I want to read when I go on TL and I don't think i'm the only one.
Seriously, another one like that and I think that I will just stop to read articles from TL except for the probably incoming TSL4... because i'm sure that they will be just hyping this one and nothing else.
They are just saying what everyone else is thinking and saying. Telling it like it is might seem harsh, but most people would agree that NASL has serious issues overall. Is TL supposed to talk sweetly about every single event just because it's an event?
TL shouldn't have to hype the NASL for the NASL, especially when there's nothing TO hype. I appreciate their honesty. I expect it's even possible that no one WANTED to write an article about NASL. There was a quote about reviews for the Nintendo Wii, all the reviewers drew straws and the one who got the short straw had to review the Wii. Someone got the short straw and had to write about the NASL.
If what was writted in the article is true or not is clearly not the point. Why in the hell is that article bashing the qualification season in the "NASL Grand Final Preview" for 90% of the article? Where is the actual preview?
Nice to know that the one major e-sports organization that rarely runs any tournaments of its own has the credibility to make such a negative commentary about a major tournament just before its grand final. Another manifestation of the unwarranted snobbish attitude held by some who 'represent' TL.net.
On December 04 2011 10:56 DeepElemBlues wrote: Nice to know that the one major e-sports organization that rarely runs any tournaments of its own has the credibility to make such a negative commentary about a major tournament just before its grand final. Another manifestation of the unwarranted snobbish attitude held by some who 'represent' TL.net.
Yeah no doubt. What the fuck is wrong with the editors lately. Shitting on the EG house and now this? Well whoever wrote all this negative crap should be feeling pretty terrible, because the finals is freaking awesome so far. Good production, good casting, good players, and good games.
On December 04 2011 08:21 chipman wrote: Personally I think articles like this do more to kill esports than grow it.
I disagree. Personally, I find the criticism in this article is honest, fair, entirely reasonable and frankly necessary. If NASL can't address these issues, they'll be dead in the water.
NASL is attempting something very ambitious, with a high capital investment, with very little broadcasting experience. They are trying to stream games every day in a league format, leading in an extended 3-day live event. Not even GSL or MLG does this, because they know how expensive and risky it is.
They should either think of ways to scale back what they're doing so they can offer their product at a better price ... or they can double-down again and try to make the stream and event even bigger, better, more expensive.
But as these finals have illustrated, just because you're spending money doesn't mean you're adding meaningful value to what you're doing.
I can understand how this article can seem negative, but it is sobering. Their 'product' simply isn't spectacular enough to justify their business model right now, and they need to hear that.
No amount of 'pat's-on-the-back' or 'nice-try's is going to help NASL become sustainable. And no one is going to go out on a limb and try to convince their friends to stay in Ontario, California for 3 days-2 nights unless the event is absolutely balls-to-the-wall amazing.
Boy that article is harsh. Sure it's saying what a lot of us are thinking, but the title is more than a little misleading. Should have been titled "why i think the NASL sucks" or something of the sort. It didn't really tell me much about the upcoming season 2 finals at all. This is the first time I've had to go to the Liquidpedia instead of the main event article for actual information about the upcoming event.
I just got back from day 2 of the grand final (I left early) and I gotta say that room is dead. There are enough chairs for around ~1500 people (with room for more chairs) and only about 200-250 people there. They failed to get people to show up.
One of the problems was their choice of location. I live in the LA/OC area (the closest population center) and the drive to Ontario is terrible. This is a serious barrier to getting people to attend. Also the venue is lame. No outside food is allowed inside and the on-site vendors are overpriced and have terrible food quality.
Ontario is a well known area for holding cheap international events (because of the large airport) and it shows. Instead of deciding to hold their finals in a city that had a chance of generating local interest, they decided to save money. The problem is that very few people are going to fly in to spectate an SC2 tournament. The viewership is generally young and can't justify the travel expenses.
I don't want to hate on NASL. The reason that I ever bother to criticize is because I hope that the NASL and other tournaments can learn from these mistakes. I want as many tournaments to succeed as possible. NASL has a long way to go, and based on what I saw in Ontario I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a season 3.
On December 04 2011 14:28 jaiihawk wrote: I just got back from day 2 of the grand final (I left early) and I gotta say that room is dead. There are enough chairs for around ~1500 people (with room for more chairs) and only about 200-250 people there. They failed to get people to show up.
One of the problems was their choice of location. I live in the LA/OC area (the closest population center) and the drive to Ontario is terrible. This is a serious barrier to getting people to attend. Also the venue is lame. No outside food is allowed inside and the on-site vendors are overpriced and have terrible food quality.
Ontario is a well known area for holding cheap international events (because of the large airport) and it shows. Instead of deciding to hold their finals in a city that had a chance of generating local interest, they decided to save money. The problem is that very few people are going to fly in to spectate an SC2 tournament. The viewership is generally young and can't justify the travel expenses.
I don't want to hate on NASL. The reason that I ever bother to criticize is because I hope that the NASL and other tournaments can learn from these mistakes. I want as many tournaments to succeed as possible. NASL has a long way to go, and based on what I saw in Ontario I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a season 3.
I can't help but think they could sell out a 500-1000 seat theatre in LA easily (and save themselves a lot of planning and management grief in the process).
Let's put it this way ... I could convince my wife to go the LA with me for a week, so I could spend some time at a Starcraft 2 tourney.
There's no way I could convince her to stay in Ontario, California JUST for a SC2 tournament.
On December 04 2011 03:07 Prplppleatr wrote: Lol wow...was looking around at brackets and the article and what not...Just realized this is in Ontario, CALIFORNIA, not canada...mentioned it on a chat and several others thought the same...wonder if this may be another possible reason for the lack of attendance
There's 700 people wandering around Canada now cold, lost, completely out of place in the real world trying to find an e-sports event that's happening thousands of miles away in California
I'm baffled as to why would they schedule the finals at such a horrible time for Europeans. If you're "lucky" and live in either Portugal or the UK you get the finals at 3 AM, if you live more to the east you get an even worse hour. Why would they do that? MLG Anaheim wasn't nearly as bad and it was in the same timezone as Ontario CA.
On December 05 2011 00:31 GrungyMunchy wrote: I'm baffled as to why would they schedule the finals at such a horrible time for Europeans. If you're "lucky" and live in either Portugal or the UK you get the finals at 3 AM, if you live more to the east you get an even worse hour. Why would they do that? MLG Anaheim wasn't nearly as bad and it was in the same timezone as Ontario CA.
I live in the UK and it looks like I will skip this final due to the 3 AM schedule. This is more awfull production from NASL that shows absolute contempt for non US audience. I hope this will be their last event!
On December 05 2011 00:31 GrungyMunchy wrote: I'm baffled as to why would they schedule the finals at such a horrible time for Europeans. If you're "lucky" and live in either Portugal or the UK you get the finals at 3 AM, if you live more to the east you get an even worse hour. Why would they do that? MLG Anaheim wasn't nearly as bad and it was in the same timezone as Ontario CA.
I live in the UK and it looks like I will skip this final due to the 3 AM schedule. This is more awfull production from NASL that shows absolute contempt for non US audience. I hope this will be their last event!
well, you cannot make a good time for NA, EU and KOR, and considering it's the north american starleague and two koreans are in the finals, I can understand that EU might get the butt end of the stick in terms of scheduling.
On December 05 2011 00:31 GrungyMunchy wrote: I'm baffled as to why would they schedule the finals at such a horrible time for Europeans. If you're "lucky" and live in either Portugal or the UK you get the finals at 3 AM, if you live more to the east you get an even worse hour. Why would they do that? MLG Anaheim wasn't nearly as bad and it was in the same timezone as Ontario CA.
I live in the UK and it looks like I will skip this final due to the 3 AM schedule. This is more awfull production from NASL that shows absolute contempt for non US audience. I hope this will be their last event!
Someone needs a diapey change.........
Pfff you add nothing to the discussion so shut it and dont go insult other posters. Fool.
On December 05 2011 00:31 GrungyMunchy wrote: I'm baffled as to why would they schedule the finals at such a horrible time for Europeans. If you're "lucky" and live in either Portugal or the UK you get the finals at 3 AM, if you live more to the east you get an even worse hour. Why would they do that? MLG Anaheim wasn't nearly as bad and it was in the same timezone as Ontario CA.
I live in the UK and it looks like I will skip this final due to the 3 AM schedule. This is more awfull production from NASL that shows absolute contempt for non US audience. I hope this will be their last event!
Seriously just stop talking. No one gives that you think the NASL absolutely hates their non-US audience. Bring your ignorance elsewhere. If you actually believe they schedule their events around the concept of "not letting non-Americans watch at a reasonable hour" then just don't watch it and no one will give a shit.
The production for the event on the second day was phenomenal even though the first day had its hiccups. If it weren't then it wouldn't be bringing in 30k+ viewers consistently.
I think it's at least reasonable to assume that, given the boycott from the Korean teams, their target audience is mainly people from the US and from Europe. I of course understand that the priority in scheduling is given to American audiences, but it is possible to schedule the event without taking completely the opportunity for Europeans to watch the finals. Many tournaments in the West Coast already understood that and scheduled their tournaments accordingly. I mean, they just needed to make the finals happen 2~3 hours before what they're doing now, I'm not sure that's asking much...
Rofl the GSL doesn't cater to its large American audience either. NASL is the North American Star League. Naturally it is going to have its time cater to that timezone, just like GSL caters to the Korean timezones. Seriously this isn't rocket science...
On December 05 2011 01:48 xlava wrote: Rofl the GSL doesn't cater to its large American audience either. NASL is the North American Star League. Naturally it is going to have its time cater to that timezone, just like GSL caters to the Korean timezones. Seriously this isn't rocket science...
You do realize that the small change I proposed would greatly benefit the NASL itself right? Not to mention that for example MLG Anaheim were in the same timezone and were perfectly watchable from Europe. It's idiotic not to adapt in little details just to make a stand that this is the North American Star League and lose a lot of people who are willing to watch the tournament finals in the process.
On December 05 2011 00:31 GrungyMunchy wrote: I'm baffled as to why would they schedule the finals at such a horrible time for Europeans. If you're "lucky" and live in either Portugal or the UK you get the finals at 3 AM, if you live more to the east you get an even worse hour. Why would they do that? MLG Anaheim wasn't nearly as bad and it was in the same timezone as Ontario CA.
I live in the UK and it looks like I will skip this final due to the 3 AM schedule. This is more awfull production from NASL that shows absolute contempt for non US audience. I hope this will be their last event!
Someone needs a diapey change.........
Pfff you add nothing to the discussion so shut it and dont go insult other posters. Fool.
And your first 9 posts go to telling others to shut it?? Or you have 40posts over 6 accounts because of being banned for over reacting. Hes giving feedback so chillaxe. I myself think NASL has improved quite a bit over the year. They have went from unwatchable to watchable. Lets just hope the production carries over to next season.
On December 05 2011 01:25 JustPassingBy wrote: well, you cannot make a good time for NA, EU and KOR, and considering it's the north american starleague and two koreans are in the finals, I can understand that EU might get the butt end of the stick in terms of scheduling.
I doubt that many koreans are watching these events. Its a decision from NASL we have to live with though and if they don't want an european audience (And I think its safe to say it when the matches start at like 3AM. Those very very few people that are awake and want to watch SC2 should be almost meaningless), I just don't watch.
If this works out for them, ok, but I will not change my whole sleeping shedule on a weekend for some SC2 matches. When the viewercount is low enough they might consider to change the times for NASL season 3. Compared to season 2 so far its a dissapointment for me. Lots and lots of boring matches at the start so I did not even bother to watch them at all anymore, then a final event I can't watch too. .
On December 05 2011 00:31 GrungyMunchy wrote: I'm baffled as to why would they schedule the finals at such a horrible time for Europeans. If you're "lucky" and live in either Portugal or the UK you get the finals at 3 AM, if you live more to the east you get an even worse hour. Why would they do that? MLG Anaheim wasn't nearly as bad and it was in the same timezone as Ontario CA.
I live in the UK and it looks like I will skip this final due to the 3 AM schedule. This is more awfull production from NASL that shows absolute contempt for non US audience. I hope this will be their last event!
Someone needs a diapey change.........
ROFL. Kid can't watch the tournament so he says " I hope this will be their last event." Hilariously pathetic.
On December 05 2011 00:31 GrungyMunchy wrote: I'm baffled as to why would they schedule the finals at such a horrible time for Europeans. If you're "lucky" and live in either Portugal or the UK you get the finals at 3 AM, if you live more to the east you get an even worse hour. Why would they do that? MLG Anaheim wasn't nearly as bad and it was in the same timezone as Ontario CA.
I live in the UK and it looks like I will skip this final due to the 3 AM schedule. This is more awfull production from NASL that shows absolute contempt for non US audience. I hope this will be their last event!
Sadly, they already announced NASL Season 3...now with Tribes Ascend!
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
Yes, exactly, that's what I meant.
TL articles are becoming that more and more for some reason. The thing with EG House (that was ridiculous), now shitting on the qualification of an event, one day before the final... That's seriously not what I want to read when I go on TL and I don't think i'm the only one.
Seriously, another one like that and I think that I will just stop to read articles from TL except for the probably incoming TSL4... because i'm sure that they will be just hyping this one and nothing else.
So you want fluff? If the players are not good, then they deserve to be criticized. If tournaments are not run well, they deserve to be bashed on. I am glad TL tells it like it is without the fluff and sugar coating. Welcome to journalism.
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
Yes, exactly, that's what I meant.
TL articles are becoming that more and more for some reason. The thing with EG House (that was ridiculous), now shitting on the qualification of an event, one day before the final... That's seriously not what I want to read when I go on TL and I don't think i'm the only one.
Seriously, another one like that and I think that I will just stop to read articles from TL except for the probably incoming TSL4... because i'm sure that they will be just hyping this one and nothing else.
So you want fluff? If the players are not good, then they deserve to be criticized. If tournaments are not run well, they deserve to be bashed on. I am glad TL tells it like it is without the fluff and sugar coating. Welcome to journalism.
Exactly. Seem to be the only ones who haven't yet sold their soul, unlike other people running shows which even have "without the fluff" in their title.
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
Yes, exactly, that's what I meant.
TL articles are becoming that more and more for some reason. The thing with EG House (that was ridiculous), now shitting on the qualification of an event, one day before the final... That's seriously not what I want to read when I go on TL and I don't think i'm the only one.
Seriously, another one like that and I think that I will just stop to read articles from TL except for the probably incoming TSL4... because i'm sure that they will be just hyping this one and nothing else.
So you want fluff? If the players are not good, then they deserve to be criticized. If tournaments are not run well, they deserve to be bashed on. I am glad TL tells it like it is without the fluff and sugar coating. Welcome to journalism.
Funny how everytime someone in this thread criticizes the fact that the article pretended to be a finals preview when it just bashed the regular season, their argument gets twisted into "I don't want TL to criticize NASL at all." I know that might be easier for you to argue against, but it's not what we're actually saying. We're questioning the timing of bashing the regular season in a "finals preview" article.
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
Yes, exactly, that's what I meant.
TL articles are becoming that more and more for some reason. The thing with EG House (that was ridiculous), now shitting on the qualification of an event, one day before the final... That's seriously not what I want to read when I go on TL and I don't think i'm the only one.
Seriously, another one like that and I think that I will just stop to read articles from TL except for the probably incoming TSL4... because i'm sure that they will be just hyping this one and nothing else.
So you want fluff? If the players are not good, then they deserve to be criticized. If tournaments are not run well, they deserve to be bashed on. I am glad TL tells it like it is without the fluff and sugar coating. Welcome to journalism.
Funny how everytime someone in this thread criticizes the fact that the article pretended to be a finals preview when it just bashed the regular season, their argument gets twisted into "I don't want TL to criticize NASL at all." I know that might be easier for you to argue against, but it's not what we're actually saying. We're questioning the timing of bashing the regular season in a "finals preview" article.
The timing of the bashing of NASL cannot be better! TL is using the NASL finals to attract attention to this article which includes straight and honest criticism as well as "finals preview". My guess is that the writers could not be bothered to write a long winded review for this failure of a league.
On December 05 2011 00:31 GrungyMunchy wrote: I'm baffled as to why would they schedule the finals at such a horrible time for Europeans. If you're "lucky" and live in either Portugal or the UK you get the finals at 3 AM, if you live more to the east you get an even worse hour. Why would they do that? MLG Anaheim wasn't nearly as bad and it was in the same timezone as Ontario CA.
I live in the UK and it looks like I will skip this final due to the 3 AM schedule. This is more awfull production from NASL that shows absolute contempt for non US audience. I hope this will be their last event!
Yes, they've made some bad business decisions. You make it sound like they fucked your girlfriend and shat in your bed. Relax.
I hope NASl will fix the scheduling next season, the decision making is really really bad by the company. I also really doubt that the koreans make more than 1% viewers.
Posting here because LR thread is being censored: NASL please look into better scheduling! I know these events before the finals match can be fun, but why make it a night-event when it's only one series?
I think maybe we should create a feedback thread like we did for MLG Dallas. Maybe it will help the management if all the issues were concentrated on one thread to read.
On December 04 2011 01:26 Xalorian wrote: It's just my opinion but...
It's funny how TL articles shit on so many less favorite players these day, even an event this time, for some reasons. It start to be annoying. And is it a final preview or a season recap? Because there's not much about the final...
I wana read hype or in-depth preview of incoming match in a preview., not criticism of the qualification event that already ended.
It's a poor article, at least for me.
I think such an article would have been fine if it were published after season 2 have ended or as a separate article. Having it as a preview of the final weekend is pretty bad.
Yes, exactly, that's what I meant.
TL articles are becoming that more and more for some reason. The thing with EG House (that was ridiculous), now shitting on the qualification of an event, one day before the final... That's seriously not what I want to read when I go on TL and I don't think i'm the only one.
Seriously, another one like that and I think that I will just stop to read articles from TL except for the probably incoming TSL4... because i'm sure that they will be just hyping this one and nothing else.
So you want fluff? If the players are not good, then they deserve to be criticized. If tournaments are not run well, they deserve to be bashed on. I am glad TL tells it like it is without the fluff and sugar coating. Welcome to journalism.
Yes, I want the same fluff that they give to other events, that's my right.
Can't you read what other are posting before quoting and bashing? If it's true or not is not the point... why in the fucking hell bashing on the tournament qualification the day before the grand final, when the title of the article is "Grand-Final preview". Where was the preview?
NASL worked hard and hard, screwed some shit for sure, but was mostly a really great tournament. It's true that not many peoples watched it since there was just so many games, but i'm sure that everybody who watched it liked it. And, the grand final is good. They don't have many peoples in the venue, but there was like 40k viewers at some point yesterday, and the games were awesome.
If you think that those player are bad, or that the event was not run well, then you didn't watched it at all.
Wonder if we will see Puma go beyond 1 base against hero. Also, im not sure how I feel about the tribes thing. What the fuck does NASL even stand for anymore? Stop trying to be mlg nasl :\
On December 04 2011 14:28 jaiihawk wrote: I just got back from day 2 of the grand final (I left early) and I gotta say that room is dead. There are enough chairs for around ~1500 people (with room for more chairs) and only about 200-250 people there. They failed to get people to show up.
One of the problems was their choice of location. I live in the LA/OC area (the closest population center) and the drive to Ontario is terrible. This is a serious barrier to getting people to attend. Also the venue is lame. No outside food is allowed inside and the on-site vendors are overpriced and have terrible food quality.
Ontario is a well known area for holding cheap international events (because of the large airport) and it shows. Instead of deciding to hold their finals in a city that had a chance of generating local interest, they decided to save money. The problem is that very few people are going to fly in to spectate an SC2 tournament. The viewership is generally young and can't justify the travel expenses.
I don't want to hate on NASL. The reason that I ever bother to criticize is because I hope that the NASL and other tournaments can learn from these mistakes. I want as many tournaments to succeed as possible. NASL has a long way to go, and based on what I saw in Ontario I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a season 3.
This. Oh so this. I attended the Season 1 Finals in Ontario as well. Parking was overpriced. No outside food was bullshit. And the food they sold was also overpriced and not good quality.
As a result, despite having secured 2 free tickets at Blizzcon, I did not attend the Season 2 Finals.
On December 05 2011 10:53 Laeon wrote: Best of how many for the 3rd place match and the final ?
Well the 3rd place match is already over but it was a bo7
Finals are bo9, and they still haven't fuc*ing started yet. This is making me really angry... its 11pm and I have stuff to do tomorrow and would really like to watch these finals.
I could see that hero was beginning to crack at the end. There were about 15-20 wasted zealots towards the end on that last match that could've really soaked up a lot of damage for the other units. Also I think he could've gone with more stalkers for anti-air. But then again grats on both players for getting to the finals and grats to Puma for a 2nd win.
From watching the tournament last year and this year it looked like the tournament went downhill a bit. There was a ton of viewers for the finals which was cool to see. but there is alot of stuff this tourney can do to get up to IPL and MLG. Good tourney tho
i mean its an ok write up, but should have wait till the actual grand final. because that last day was pretty sick. the production value was sick and the games were even better
On December 05 2011 01:39 Albrithe wrote: In a world market, you can't count on everyone being happy with scheduling. They're not doing it to spite you, so get over it.
We're the customers though, we set the demand. And us Europeans demand better scheduled broadcasts or we will simply not watch the show and NASL loses a big chunk of audience, which is naturally not in their best interest.
I mean... they've could've skipped the Day[9] daily (it was good, but i stayed up to watch the final games and not a daily...) and also scheduled the HoN finals afer the sc2 finals. I know, i know, nobody would watch HoN if it was scheduled like that but thats kinda my point.
It's all about giving the viewers what they want and we want to watch SC2 and not HoN. (Someone will disagree with me on this one)
NASL didn't deliver to us Europeans and I think thats really a shame...
On December 05 2011 01:39 Albrithe wrote: In a world market, you can't count on everyone being happy with scheduling. They're not doing it to spite you, so get over it.
We're the customers though, we set the demand. And us Europeans demand better scheduled broadcasts or we will simply not watch the show and NASL loses a big chunk of audience, which is naturally not in their best interest.
I mean... they've could've skipped the Day[9] daily (it was good, but i stayed up to watch the final games and not a daily...) and also scheduled the HoN finals afer the sc2 finals. I know, i know, nobody would watch HoN if it was scheduled like that but thats kinda my point.
It's all about giving the viewers what they want and we want to watch SC2 and not HoN. (Someone will disagree with me on this one)
NASL didn't deliver to us Europeans and I think thats really a shame...
I don't think NASL deserves to be burned at the stake ... It's not like GSL is easy for us to watch in North America ... but it is a missed opportunity considering the amount of Europeans in the top 16.
On December 05 2011 01:39 Albrithe wrote: In a world market, you can't count on everyone being happy with scheduling. They're not doing it to spite you, so get over it.
We're the customers though, we set the demand. And us Europeans demand better scheduled broadcasts or we will simply not watch the show and NASL loses a big chunk of audience, which is naturally not in their best interest.
I mean... they've could've skipped the Day[9] daily (it was good, but i stayed up to watch the final games and not a daily...) and also scheduled the HoN finals afer the sc2 finals. I know, i know, nobody would watch HoN if it was scheduled like that but thats kinda my point.
It's all about giving the viewers what they want and we want to watch SC2 and not HoN. (Someone will disagree with me on this one)
NASL didn't deliver to us Europeans and I think thats really a shame...
I don't think NASL deserves to be burned at the stake ... It's not like GSL is easy for us to watch in North America ... but it is a missed opportunity considering the amount of Europeans in the top 16.
Everyone should stop using GSL to justify the scheduling. GSL is broadcasted in Korea with Korea as the main audience. The western E-Sports scene is seen as one although the time differences between the far ends of it are huge and therefore if they make their tournament unable to be watched by around half of the scene then they are doing something whch can't be justified through any perspective.
On December 05 2011 01:39 Albrithe wrote: In a world market, you can't count on everyone being happy with scheduling. They're not doing it to spite you, so get over it.
We're the customers though, we set the demand. And us Europeans demand better scheduled broadcasts or we will simply not watch the show and NASL loses a big chunk of audience, which is naturally not in their best interest.
I mean... they've could've skipped the Day[9] daily (it was good, but i stayed up to watch the final games and not a daily...) and also scheduled the HoN finals afer the sc2 finals. I know, i know, nobody would watch HoN if it was scheduled like that but thats kinda my point.
It's all about giving the viewers what they want and we want to watch SC2 and not HoN. (Someone will disagree with me on this one)
NASL didn't deliver to us Europeans and I think thats really a shame...
I don't think NASL deserves to be burned at the stake ... It's not like GSL is easy for us to watch in North America ... but it is a missed opportunity considering the amount of Europeans in the top 16.
Everyone should stop using GSL to justify the scheduling. GSL is broadcasted in Korea with Korea as the main audience. The western E-Sports scene is seen as one although the time differences between the far ends of it are huge and therefore if they make their tournament unable to be watched by around half of the scene then they are doing something whch can't be justified through any perspective.
Oh yeah, the North American market doesn't matter at all. I guess having English casters is just GSL having a massive brain fart.
Relax a little. Tournaments should try to accomodate as many potential markets as possible. NASL made a lot of mistakes, but trying to schedule around European time zones is far from the worst one they made.
On December 05 2011 01:39 Albrithe wrote: In a world market, you can't count on everyone being happy with scheduling. They're not doing it to spite you, so get over it.
We're the customers though, we set the demand. And us Europeans demand better scheduled broadcasts or we will simply not watch the show and NASL loses a big chunk of audience, which is naturally not in their best interest.
I mean... they've could've skipped the Day[9] daily (it was good, but i stayed up to watch the final games and not a daily...) and also scheduled the HoN finals afer the sc2 finals. I know, i know, nobody would watch HoN if it was scheduled like that but thats kinda my point.
It's all about giving the viewers what they want and we want to watch SC2 and not HoN. (Someone will disagree with me on this one)
NASL didn't deliver to us Europeans and I think thats really a shame...
I don't think NASL deserves to be burned at the stake ... It's not like GSL is easy for us to watch in North America ... but it is a missed opportunity considering the amount of Europeans in the top 16.
Everyone should stop using GSL to justify the scheduling. GSL is broadcasted in Korea with Korea as the main audience. The western E-Sports scene is seen as one although the time differences between the far ends of it are huge and therefore if they make their tournament unable to be watched by around half of the scene then they are doing something whch can't be justified through any perspective.
Oh yeah, the North American market doesn't matter at all. I guess having English casters is just GSL having a massive brain fart.
Relax a little. Tournaments should try to accomodate as many potential markets as possible. NASL made a lot of mistakes, but trying to schedule around European time zones is far from the worst one they made.
Think about GSL, it is unwatchable live both in Europe and NA for almost everyone. It airs around 11 am in Europe and 4-5 am in NA, barely anyone can watch it live as it is. Their live audience for their English stream compared to their Korean broadcast isn't comparable, nor would it be even with better times for the western market, the loss in Korean would be too big. The advantage GSL has is that they have the highest level of play that anyone can offer and they have a good VOD service allowing people to watch the games they want to watch.
Compare this to NASL, their market is solely the Western, although they attract Koreans but that is only to increase their western viewership. The quality of the players is much worse and not even the live feeling can make up for it. They then schedule it so it is unwatchable by anyone who has any kind of school or job in Europe. People can stay up until 1-2 am to watch things like this, but going further than that is really stretching it.
Of course they had tons of other issues throughout the season but every one of them should be brought into the light so they might improve instead of the old mantra "FOR ESPORTS WE NEED TO SUPPORT THEM!!!".
On December 05 2011 01:39 Albrithe wrote: In a world market, you can't count on everyone being happy with scheduling. They're not doing it to spite you, so get over it.
We're the customers though, we set the demand. And us Europeans demand better scheduled broadcasts or we will simply not watch the show and NASL loses a big chunk of audience, which is naturally not in their best interest.
I mean... they've could've skipped the Day[9] daily (it was good, but i stayed up to watch the final games and not a daily...) and also scheduled the HoN finals afer the sc2 finals. I know, i know, nobody would watch HoN if it was scheduled like that but thats kinda my point.
It's all about giving the viewers what they want and we want to watch SC2 and not HoN. (Someone will disagree with me on this one)
NASL didn't deliver to us Europeans and I think thats really a shame...
I don't think NASL deserves to be burned at the stake ... It's not like GSL is easy for us to watch in North America ... but it is a missed opportunity considering the amount of Europeans in the top 16.
Everyone should stop using GSL to justify the scheduling. GSL is broadcasted in Korea with Korea as the main audience. The western E-Sports scene is seen as one although the time differences between the far ends of it are huge and therefore if they make their tournament unable to be watched by around half of the scene then they are doing something whch can't be justified through any perspective.
Oh yeah, the North American market doesn't matter at all. I guess having English casters is just GSL having a massive brain fart.
Relax a little. Tournaments should try to accomodate as many potential markets as possible. NASL made a lot of mistakes, but trying to schedule around European time zones is far from the worst one they made.
Think about GSL, it is unwatchable live both in Europe and NA for almost everyone. It airs around 11 am in Europe and 4-5 am in NA, barely anyone can watch it live as it is. Their live audience for their English stream compared to their Korean broadcast isn't comparable, nor would it be even with better times for the western market, the loss in Korean would be too big. The advantage GSL has is that they have the highest level of play that anyone can offer and they have a good VOD service allowing people to watch the games they want to watch.
Compare this to NASL, their market is solely the Western, although they attract Koreans but that is only to increase their western viewership. The quality of the players is much worse and not even the live feeling can make up for it. They then schedule it so it is unwatchable by anyone who has any kind of school or job in Europe. People can stay up until 1-2 am to watch things like this, but going further than that is really stretching it.
Of course they had tons of other issues throughout the season but every one of them should be brought into the light so they might improve instead of the old mantra "FOR ESPORTS WE NEED TO SUPPORT THEM!!!".
Because the GSL finals are unwatchable right? 11am on a saturday morning in EU and ~midnight on a friday night for NA oh how impossible to work around
however, 4-5am EU on a monday, is pretty ridiculous specially for a tournament that has so much preparation and for a tournament that had 2 matches that day The NASL finals should've been on a time that can accommodate MOST people as it's on a weekend and they are getting garbage ratings anyways but hey, you can't really expect anything above par for a mediocre tournament with garbage management like the NASL it's a shame because some of the games were actually pretty good
I felt it started too late even on the east coast in the US. However, I did see the finals and the games were good and the presentation was better than before. There seemed to be substantial time between matches at moments, but otherwise, an improvement in my opinion. Hope they can turn it around and atleast try the last season that was originally promised. Go NASL
I've been waiting and waiting for the VODs to be uploaded.. I payed 10 dollars solely so I could watch them and all they've uploaded are the grand finals for HoN.
If reputation is directly influenced by public opinion, then wouldn't this be a pretty effective way to find out who's right?
Obviously not a good measurement of reputation, especially in this biased context. Amongst people who actually know StarCraft II and follow TT1's games, they would know he's far from a cheesy player. He's a solid macro player based on execution and timing. Yes, he mixes cheese into play occasionally, but that's what every good player does. I find it weird that you call him a cheesy player and use that as the reason he can't win versus Sen. If anything, the reason might be that Sen is one of the best foreign Zergs right now.
QFT.
Not familiar with his brood war days (aside from the MH incident), but TT1 seems to be a very solid player from what I've seen. If getting tuned by Sen means you're bad there are a lot of bad pros out there.
On December 07 2011 06:27 FatalMuffin wrote: I've been waiting and waiting for the VODs to be uploaded.. I payed 10 dollars solely so I could watch them and all they've uploaded are the grand finals for HoN.
Am I missing something?
yes. the vods appear to be up (but only in full day chunks) under 'past broadcasts' on their twitch.tv channel.
On December 07 2011 06:27 FatalMuffin wrote: I've been waiting and waiting for the VODs to be uploaded.. I payed 10 dollars solely so I could watch them and all they've uploaded are the grand finals for HoN.
Am I missing something?
yes. the vods appear to be up (but only in full day chunks) under 'past broadcasts' on their twitch.tv channel.
It looks like they are in the process of editing out individual games.
Dude even that would be fine, but I checked through all 3 of those videos and they only contain the HoN section of the day.
EDIT: Oh shit balls I just realized that Twitch.TV was seperating it into different "Parts". Ok I failed. Thanks though, made me re-check again and realized I was failing.
On December 07 2011 06:27 FatalMuffin wrote: I've been waiting and waiting for the VODs to be uploaded.. I payed 10 dollars solely so I could watch them and all they've uploaded are the grand finals for HoN.
Am I missing something?
yes. the vods appear to be up (but only in full day chunks) under 'past broadcasts' on their twitch.tv channel.
It looks like they are in the process of editing out individual games.
Dude even that would be fine, but I checked through all 3 of those videos and they only contain the HoN section of the day.
EDIT: Oh shit balls I just realized that Twitch.TV was seperating it into different "Parts". Ok I failed. Thanks though, made me re-check again and realized I was failing.
On December 05 2011 01:39 Albrithe wrote: In a world market, you can't count on everyone being happy with scheduling. They're not doing it to spite you, so get over it.
We're the customers though, we set the demand.
Customers who PAY set the demand.
If you paid you got the VOD's service.
If you paid but weren't satasfied with the VOD's, fine, send a complaint/feedback form if you want, but it was made quite clear what you'd get for your buck
If you don't pay and are still trying to use a supply & demand argument for the fact that you believe a FREE American tournament doesn't cater to European time zones then take a while to read this sentence back and realise the foolishness in your argument. Just because you're repeating what others are saying does not mean you have a point.
On December 05 2011 01:39 Albrithe wrote: In a world market, you can't count on everyone being happy with scheduling. They're not doing it to spite you, so get over it.
We're the customers though, we set the demand.
Customers who PAY set the demand.
If you paid you got the VOD's service.
If you paid but weren't satasfied with the VOD's, fine, send a complaint/feedback form if you want, but it was made quite clear what you'd get for your buck
If you don't pay and are still trying to use a supply & demand argument for the fact that you believe a FREE American tournament doesn't cater to European time zones then take a while to read this sentence back and realise the foolishness in your argument. Just because you're repeating what others are saying does not mean you have a point.
while i agree with the point you're trying to make; non-paying folks are still customers due to stream advertising revenue. i'm not going to debate who should be more catered to, but all viewers are money in some way, shape, or form.
my personal opinion is that the finals should have started earlier, but way too many people have whined way too much about it.
i am a paid sub for first 2 seasons if that matters at all....
On December 05 2011 01:39 Albrithe wrote: In a world market, you can't count on everyone being happy with scheduling. They're not doing it to spite you, so get over it.
We're the customers though, we set the demand.
Customers who PAY set the demand.
If you paid you got the VOD's service.
If you paid but weren't satasfied with the VOD's, fine, send a complaint/feedback form if you want, but it was made quite clear what you'd get for your buck
If you don't pay and are still trying to use a supply & demand argument for the fact that you believe a FREE American tournament doesn't cater to European time zones then take a while to read this sentence back and realise the foolishness in your argument. Just because you're repeating what others are saying does not mean you have a point.
Disagree on every level. I payed for a season ticket. That doesn't make my word any more meaningful than anyone else who watches NASL, because so long as you watch NASL, you are a consumer of their 'product', that is, the stream. Only catering to 'paid' customers is a sure way to fail, because if you are unable to convince consumers that your stream is worth their buck, they will not pay the money. Sure you have they niche group of people who pay for premium passes for every event, but you cannot support your business to fail. And it is arguable that the NASL is a failure, as we can see their paltry turnup at the finals and the low viewership.
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