EPTThe Analytical Caster - A Twitter Story - Page 10
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Keep the discussion civil, please. | ||
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BlazeTSR
United States218 Posts
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Sighstorm
Netherlands116 Posts
Players have to be able to spend as much time as possible at getting better at the game with their race (and get rewarded/paid for it). On the other hand i really enjoyed the Homestory Cup with the player co-casters, so i've got somewhat conflicting thoughts on this subject. What i do find kind of odd and disagree with is the how this discussion started... Slasher and guests were talking about the couch during the Dreamhack finals. This is actually the perfect place to invite a player and do post-game analyses as long as a 'couch host' ask the questions and moderates the conversation. So, i don't understand why Slasher started it there. The funny thing about this discussion (including the tweets) is that the main point Slasher made on the show is completely lost. His main reason to seperate players and casters was that players have interests that might affect their casting. They might be holding back judgement, because one of the players is a friend (or have prejudices because it's an enemy). They might cast less genuine because the don't want to risk losing potential future oppertunities as a player (like future contracts with other teams). He emphasized the point by talking about players that cast games with their own team mates... this is a conflict of interest or at least conflicted mind. Emotion might influence their analyses. I totally agree with Slasher that this might result in unbalanced casting. At this point in time casting will give a player a lot of exposure, which they need to up their marketability, so this is more a roadmap for the (utopian?) future when players do make millions of dollars. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:25 Zorkmid wrote: Yes he does, he argues that the casters weight more heavily than players on the event's quality, thus making them deserving of more money. You're missing the point. They are worth more to the event, but does that make them deserving of more money? Good pro players put in at least as much work as many casters, but because casters are in general worth more to the event (according to SimDawg - not my opinion), they get paid more. | ||
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GwSC
United States1997 Posts
I'm afraid things are going to start get a bit ugly, especially now that a lot of foreign teams are partnered with Korean teams and will have the power to keep a lot of their top players out of tournaments if they feel the players are being underpaid. This is all seeming to come out of nowhere for spectators but all this is giving the impression that there is and has been a not-insignificant amount discontent among players because they are being paid less than casters. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:27 Sighstorm wrote: The funny thing about this discussion (including the tweets) is that the main point Slasher made is completely lost. His main reason to seperate players and casters was that players have interests that might affect their casting. They might be holding back judgement, because one of the players is a friend... or have prejudices because i't's an enemy. They might cast less genuine because the don't want to risk losing potential future oppertunities as a player (like future contracts with other teams). If bias was seen as a big issue for casting/commentating, Artosis would not be one of the premier casters in the world. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:27 SeaSwift wrote: You're missing the point. They are worth more to the event, but does that make them deserving of more money? If you buy the premise, then yes, absolutely it makes them more deserving of more money. | ||
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Synche
United States1345 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:27 SeaSwift wrote: You're missing the point. They are worth more to the event, but does that make them deserving of more money? Good pro players put in at least as much work as many casters, but because casters are in general worth more to the event (according to SimDawg - not my opinion), they get paid more. I sort of see what you're getting at, 12 hours of work is 12 hours of work. That's not how the world works. The CEO makes more than the janitor. He's worth more. That's what I'm getting at. Edit: To expound a bit more, anyone with a job in business will tell you that's the main function of your job, creating value for yourself. Through creating value for yourself you create value for your company, but by putting your company's value before your personal value you're setting yourself up for all kinds of problems. Its how you ride out the rough times, having more value than the guy in the corner office opposite yours. | ||
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Sighstorm
Netherlands116 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:30 SeaSwift wrote: If bias was seen as a big issue for casting/commentating, Artosis would not be one of the premier casters in the world. Maybe he should improve on this... I still don't understand why Clide lost his games and never won a GSL and why not every final was Nestea vs Clide. He never explained it. :p j/k | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:32 Zorkmid wrote: If you buy the premise, then yes, absolutely it makes them more deserving of more money. Why? I don't understand your thought process here. Perhaps this is a little off-topic, but I really want to know what you think. Word logic phrases: Premise 1) Casters (for the sake of the argument) put in about as much work as players Premise 2) Casters are more valuable to a tournament than players Conclusion: Casters deserve to make more money than players How does that make sense to you? If I was a computer programmer and worked in Japan, where those skills are highly in demand, I would make far more money than an identical who is, for whatever reason, stranded in rural Namibia. Does that mean that I deserve to make more money because I circumstancially happen to be worth more? I'm not saying it's practical to try and impose rules or whatever encouraging players to be paid more compared to casters, but I think your thought process is flawed. EDIT: On December 01 2011 05:37 SimDawg wrote: I sort of see what you're getting at, 12 hours of work is 12 hours of work. That's not how the world works. The CEO makes more than the janitor. He's worth more. That's what I'm getting at. Agree entirely there, it was just your word choice I picked up on. Probably just my inner pedant. It's one of the great tragedies of the world that inequality is a basic necessity for society to function (IMO, obviously). The inequality between the CEO and the janitor is one that cannot be avoided (perhaps minimalised, but not avoided completely). The difference between that circumstance and this one is that the inequality here can quite possibly be avoided entirely - it is not necessary for casters to be paid more than players, even if they are more valuable to the tournament. I don't think any massive changes are required here. One change which has been called for since the start of the SC2 pro scene is to break down the prize pool better. Many tournaments currently have a very top-heavy prize pool, with the best players winning many magnitudes more than those slightly worse. Of course, the big difference in winnings is to encourage the best play possible by making it competitive, but I feel that there could be better equality while still retaining the same standard of play. The best players probably earn roughly as much as the best casters - regardless, money doesn't look to be a problem for them from my faceless keyboard warrior perspective. It is the players who still have to "make it big" which require more support and money, and the same could probably go for commentators. The difference is that at least less well-known commentators have a simple medium by which to get publicity, while players do not have a similar way for many viewers to pick up on their play easily. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
Maybe that's one of "the great tragedies of the world" lol. But be pragmatic bro. | ||
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r_con
United States824 Posts
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skyrunner
371 Posts
On December 01 2011 05:51 Zorkmid wrote: My thoughts on this are pretty simple. Everyone is paid what they're worth. Maybe that's one of "the great tragedies of the world" lol. But be pragmatic bro. Obviously not true. Otherwise no one would ever get higher/lower salary than they had before. Unless you mean that your worth changes as a result of your salary changing. Wich doesn't make sense at all logically, Especially since salary is determined by your worth, (Not the other way around, since then, as i said, salary would never change. Also salry would be "random" if there is no way to determine salary except for salary wich doesn't exist yet). Anyway, there is a moral aspect as well. Though i think that's what you were reffering too. Organizers can choose themeslves who should get what in pay. And by pressure from the community (such as this) maybe players will get what they "deserve" since their job is much harder than the casters'. | ||
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
Still, thanks for sharing I really liked reading all of this! | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? A loss Geoff, as I do every single event I go to when I'm not doing my real job. But of course, I'm just in it for the money. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
There are a few outliers like Huk who is apparently on a reasonably decent salary, Idra too but for many of the second tier pros for it to be a livelihood instead of a hobby they have to either stream (which impacts on their ability to practice well) or hope for an occasional deep run in a tournament with a big prize pool While of course pro players should earn their keep with some decent tournament performances, there are a lot of pros that perform consistently well in every tournament, but whose winnings don't really reflect that | ||
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Nymbul
United Kingdom127 Posts
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb... Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate. Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you). Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters? Still trying to figure out if you're implying TB made a lot or that by comparison to day9 he made hardly anything. Not that surprising that day9 made so much. It was using his stream and his show was advertised alongside big names such as Steelseries It seems like Slasher sorta makes a point but he articulates himself so badly it just makes him look like an ass. May as well pay HuK to do his job cause he seems to put it better | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? Pointing numbers about how much casters make is not good for anybody. | ||
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GuiMontag
Australia79 Posts
On December 01 2011 06:31 Belha wrote: Pointing numbers about how much casters make is not good for anybody. Posting real comparisons isn't a problem, the problem here is that Geoff's making up numbers to support his teammates | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
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Dubsy
Canada186 Posts
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