EPTThe Analytical Caster - A Twitter Story - Page 8
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Keep the discussion civil, please. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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SafeAsCheese
United States4924 Posts
On November 30 2011 22:16 Rohan wrote: Back to what SotG said about players being incapable of handling the media spotlight. What media spotlight? Where are players, even ones NOT socially awkward like Naniwa, supposed to get spotlighted? Let's look the some of the most popular players IdrA -> SOTG + Inside the game + EG promotion + Self promotion White-Ra -> Streaming, interviews, documentaries, "uniqueness in dialogue" Sen -> hero zerg of Taiwan, one of the only top players outside of KR/EU, streams Incontrol -> SOTG + ITG + Self promotion Destiny -> Streams all day, he himself knows he will never be a top player until he stops streaming all the time and getting sniped by Deezer Huk / Sheth / Tyler / etc - > All gained popularity due to Team Liquid promotion, which is inevitable due to TL holding a monopoly on Starcraft 2 information and tourney coverage NesTea, MVP, Boxer, Nada, MC, etc -> All have at one point or another "stood out" in their careers, gaining an influx of fans and supporters. Where are other players supposed to get spotlight? You see a player like Nerchio once a week or so playing in some small tourney, and once a month in a major tourney, where he will make it to say the Semifinals, then lose, maybe get a 60 second interview, then never been seen again. If SOTG with their 10-20k viewers had a different guest on each week, like Thorzain, Stephano, Major, Grubby, Kas, etc it would do more for their fandom than winning a medium sized tourney =/ | ||
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Jinsho
United Kingdom3101 Posts
Tasteless and Artosis are not good players in SC2, neither is Apollo or Rotterdam. DJWheat, the best esports caster in the world, is no longer a Quake player. The list goes on and on. The more esports grows, the bigger the separation between casters and players will become. And that's fine. You do not need to actually play the game at a high level to be a good caster. You do need to analyze it at a high level though!! | ||
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viOLetFanClub
Korea (South)390 Posts
On November 30 2011 22:27 SafeAsCheese wrote: What media spotlight? Where are players, even ones NOT socially awkward like Naniwa, supposed to get spotlighted? Let's look the some of the most popular players IdrA -> SOTG + Inside the game + EG promotion + Self promotion White-Ra -> Streaming, interviews, documentaries, "uniqueness in dialogue" Sen -> hero zerg of Taiwan, one of the only top players outside of KR/EU, streams Incontrol -> SOTG + ITG + Self promotion Destiny -> Streams all day, he himself knows he will never be a top player until he stops streaming all the time and getting sniped by Deezer Huk / Sheth / Tyler / etc - > All gained popularity due to Team Liquid promotion, which is inevitable due to TL holding a monopoly on Starcraft 2 information and tourney coverage NesTea, MVP, Boxer, Nada, MC, etc -> All have at one point or another "stood out" in their careers, gaining an influx of fans and supporters. Where are other players supposed to get spotlight? You see a player like Nerchio once a week or so playing in some small tourney, and once a month in a major tourney, where he will make it to say the Semifinals, then lose, maybe get a 60 second interview, then never been seen again. If SOTG with their 10-20k viewers had a different guest on each week, like Thorzain, Stephano, Major, Grubby, Kas, etc it would do more for their fandom than winning a medium sized tourney =/ You honestly think Naniwa isn't socially awkward? | ||
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bbm
United Kingdom1320 Posts
On November 30 2011 23:31 k1mjee wrote: You honestly think Naniwa isn't socially awkward? he meant something like this: ...players, even ones NOT (socially awkard like Naniwa)... | ||
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viOLetFanClub
Korea (South)390 Posts
On November 30 2011 23:34 bbm wrote: he meant something like this: ...players, even ones NOT (socially awkard like Naniwa)... Oh, alright. *brofist* | ||
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Pertinacious
United States82 Posts
On November 30 2011 22:27 SafeAsCheese wrote: What media spotlight? Where are players, even ones NOT socially awkward like Naniwa, supposed to get spotlighted? Let's look the some of the most popular players IdrA -> SOTG + Inside the game + EG promotion + Self promotion White-Ra -> Streaming, interviews, documentaries, "uniqueness in dialogue" Sen -> hero zerg of Taiwan, one of the only top players outside of KR/EU, streams Incontrol -> SOTG + ITG + Self promotion Destiny -> Streams all day, he himself knows he will never be a top player until he stops streaming all the time and getting sniped by Deezer Huk / Sheth / Tyler / etc - > All gained popularity due to Team Liquid promotion, which is inevitable due to TL holding a monopoly on Starcraft 2 information and tourney coverage NesTea, MVP, Boxer, Nada, MC, etc -> All have at one point or another "stood out" in their careers, gaining an influx of fans and supporters. Where are other players supposed to get spotlight? You see a player like Nerchio once a week or so playing in some small tourney, and once a month in a major tourney, where he will make it to say the Semifinals, then lose, maybe get a 60 second interview, then never been seen again. If SOTG with their 10-20k viewers had a different guest on each week, like Thorzain, Stephano, Major, Grubby, Kas, etc it would do more for their fandom than winning a medium sized tourney =/ I think by spotlight he just meant the (often painful to watch) interviews that happen during just about every major tournament. BTW what's wrong with self-promotion? | ||
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Tarotis
Germany1931 Posts
On November 30 2011 22:35 Jinsho wrote: Tasteless and Artosis are not good players in SC2, neither is Apollo or Rotterdam. DJWheat, the best esports caster in the world, is no longer a Quake player. The list goes on and on. The more esports grows, the bigger the separation between casters and players will become. And that's fine. You do not need to actually play the game at a high level to be a good caster. You do need to analyze it at a high level though!! I want to interrupt you in the bolded part. Day9 has had every race in the GM league. Rotterdam is something like top 30 eu masters league (cross-divisions), as close to gm as you can be (and will kick ass at homestory cup :D). MrBitter is relatively high masters, too. Tasteless began his casting career during a tourney where he already was eliminated. DjWheat still kicks ass in various games, not world top notch, but still great. You know why the Artosis Pylon is called Artosis pylon? He also played various tournaments at the beginning of SC2, not only SC1. It shouldnt be standard that players are casting, but I think it is awesome if they do it occasionally. Dont you think analysing your own moves on stream is fun for the watchers? | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
Edit: Btw, Artosis + TLO was A PLEASURE to listen, as a top master player. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On December 01 2011 00:24 Tarotis wrote: I want to interrupt you in the bolded part. Day9 has had every race in the GM league. Rotterdam is something like top 30 eu masters league (cross-divisions), as close to gm as you can be (and will kick ass at homestory cup :D). MrBitter is relatively high masters, too. Tasteless began his casting career during a tourney where he already was eliminated. DjWheat still kicks ass in various games, not world top notch, but still great. You know why the Artosis Pylon is called Artosis pylon? He also played various tournaments at the beginning of SC2, not only SC1. It shouldnt be standard that players are casting, but I think it is awesome if they do it occasionally. Dont you think analysing your own moves on stream is fun for the watchers? when Tasteless began casting that tourney the situation was that 2 CS casters were covering the starcraft games. Considering that it's really not surprising that the organisers were willing to switch to someone completly new who was willing to do it for free on the fly. Concering Day9 that rumour seems to be persistent, but so far i have only seen his Day9 account as Zerg GM in May or something. And yes most of the caster you have listed are at least Masters players, even Artosis who failed badly in NASL was high Master in Korea at that point (frankly i'd be willing to bet that even Tasteless is Master in Korea). DjWheat is a great caster, but he would be the first to admit that he isn't anywhere close to being a good player, watch weapon of choice once in a while  Considering the players casting it is awesome if the players speak well. If they cannot get their thoughts across it is usually painfull or hilarious (MC was hilarious, Nightend was painfull at HSC). | ||
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Tarotis
Germany1931 Posts
On December 01 2011 00:30 Tula wrote: when Tasteless began casting that tourney the situation was that 2 CS casters were covering the starcraft games. Considering that it's really not surprising that the organisers were willing to switch to someone completly new who was willing to do it for free on the fly. Concering Day9 that rumour seems to be persistent, but so far i have only seen his Day9 account as Zerg GM in May or something. And yes most of the caster you have listed are at least Masters players, even Artosis who failed badly in NASL was high Master in Korea at that point (frankly i'd be willing to bet that even Tasteless is Master in Korea). DjWheat is a great caster, but he would be the first to admit that he isn't anywhere close to being a good player, watch weapon of choice once in a while Considering the players casting it is awesome if the players speak well. If they cannot get their thoughts across it is usually painfull or hilarious (MC was hilarious, Nightend was painfull at HSC). And the situation at Dreamhack was that Tasteless had to go to hospital and could not cast and Apollo/TB were exhausted and signed autographs, took photos etc. I agree with you that it depends on the person who casts, but cant we say the same about the normal casters, too? A lot of people think people like TB or gretorp shouldnt cast because they "suck", just like nightend did in HSC. But it can be awesome and I am looking forward to the next HSC for that reason!  | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On November 30 2011 22:35 Jinsho wrote: Slasher is right. The best casters are not players. Players are not the best casters. Tasteless and Artosis are not good players in SC2, neither is Apollo or Rotterdam. DJWheat, the best esports caster in the world, is no longer a Quake player. The list goes on and on. The more esports grows, the bigger the separation between casters and players will become. And that's fine. You do not need to actually play the game at a high level to be a good caster. You do need to analyze it at a high level though!! I disagree. You learn a lot more in the game when players are casting than someone that acts more as a hype-caster, and thus you learn more the more involved in the game you really are and the more fun and intensive it becomes. One of the best casters I've seen has been on the HOM3 when players casted and took turns and rotated. Also at DH with Sheth and TLO as commentators was super fun! | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
To me here is what all of this really comes down to. A player focuses on playing their race well, that's their 'job' so to speak in our world. No more then a NFL, NBA, or MLB player focuses on honing their skills each and every week. Working out the meta game for their race, trying new builds, repeatedly pounding out games to keep themselves in top playing condition. A casters job is to understand what is going on, and be able to communicate it in an entertaining / logical way to keep the audience up to date with the game they are watching. Watching game footage/replays to analyze all the match ups, working on their stage presence, learning how to fill time and work with production. Much like any regular old sport, each has to focus 100% on their craft to truly be a top professional. So as eSports grows if you want to be the best player, you should be spending 100% of your timing focusing on just that. If you want to be a top commentator you should be focusing 100% of your time on doing that. If your goal is to flounder in between as the game progresses I don't see anyone being capable of doing both to a professional level. Any more then a NFL, NBA, or MLB player would be splitting time between practicing with their team and doing commentary of other teams games. I think the above is the point slasher was trying to convey, that for eSports to truly be professional regardless of what your background is you have to work at your one aspect to truly be great at it. Also to assume that great analysts can only be ex players seems like a poor point....especially when you consider some of the best sports commentators were never very good players or were ever a player at all. Being a good analyst is all about being able to understand what your watching and dissect it and give that back to the audience. Being able to be a SC2 pro is no more a requirement for good analysis then being able to throw a touch down, slam dunk a ball, or hit a home run. Now is the above to say a player can't successfully make the transition to casting, of course not. Tasteless, Artosis, Day[9] all have done so to name a few. Is that to say someone like a DJWheat or JoeCaster can't be just as good if not better assuming they really work at understanding the game and focusing 100% of their efforts on casting, I would say no. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
Casters should almost ALWAYS be players of the game with at LEAST lower end Pro-level mechanics and middling Pro-level game knowledge... That's how it's been in Korea for ages and there's a REASON why that works... because it creates significantly more enjoyable cast when casters understand the game's flow and make accurate (if over the top) readings... It's just not aesthetically pleasing to hear a caster talking about a single bit of skirmish or harassment while completely ignoring the purpose of said skirmish/harassment while ALSO not noticing major tech changes AND other parts of the map that are actually where the real action is going on... NOBODY likes hearing a caster say "Oh, and uhh we JUST missed 35 drones dying at three different expansions... and a nuke..." Or when a Caster says something like "THIS BATTLE IS PIVOTAL THIS IS WHAT WILL DECIDE TH-oh... nevermind. I guess not." Game knowledge and map awareness and the mechanics that come along with the aforementioned are a BIG part of the Professionalism that Slasher says must increase... though he doesn't really acknowledge that as such exists. I don't hate Slasher... he's the funfun hypebot of the SC2 world atm... but the only reason he's particularly useful is that the newbs hear what his conversational adversaries say and learn the truth in a slightly more interesting way than a blatant Teamliquid Thread about "The Truth"... | ||
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Irritation
Austria129 Posts
but if pros cast, this is the best casting you can get, the insight an knowledge they put into the cast is 100000 times better than any other person can have. and sorry to be mean slasher, but even if day9, artosis, tasteless,apollo dont play the next 100 years, the even would have far better knowledge of the game than you have. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
What makes a good casters; Why they are justified as good; Background of the casters; Knowledge; Voice; Experience; Lots and lots of things to be mentioned. However the one key thing is, they can't be players, its just impossible to do both with the commitment of either (being a player or a caster) What i would like to see though, is less casters than what we have. I think Slasher hit my favorite ones on the head in what he said (Tastosis/Day/Apollo/Rottie) i would say theres room for 1 or 2 more (Wheat/TB/Bitter) but no more than that. If you look at E-Sports commentating the same way you would as any other sport you will notice they always have the analyzer and the ex pro (which has a good voice) you have to go down this road in all the events if your going to be making one. Who shall i get, how many will i need (1 stream or 2 streams etc) and then whos going to be doing the main stage etcetc. But what it boils down to is what the public wants. Lets take Andy Gray and Martin Tyler as the prime example, those two where the voice of the Premier League on sky sports for YEARS, as long as the Premier League started i beleive (1990) they complimented eachother beautifully, Martin bringing up random facts about the clubs history and management, and the odd player facts. Whilst Andy used to talk in depth about a move or about how a play is devolping really well. It was ear gripping stuff, was the best football commentators in the game. (Until Andy decided to unbotton his jeans on TV to a slutty blonde girl and abuse a womens linesman cuz women and football = NO) So with that being said you need a Tastosis with Artosis complimenting the game styles and describing moves, and Tasteless to be talking you threw the action move by move and making funny comments when the game is pretty boring and dull. Same with Day9 he can do both really well, keeps people gripped with his comedy side of his casting, but always strives for being an Artosis of knowledge on the game when he is casting. TB and Apollo compliment them eachother well aswell. TB being the voice and the funny side with the way he portrays the game with his sounds whilst Apollo is breaking the play down bit by bit (not prime t.t) On the note of them being paid more than the players i just cant beleive, if that is so WOW lol crazy system that is!! Everyone keeps talking about we need a players union for this and a E-Sports governing body for that...Well all these big names keep coming out and saying this. Well why not get off your ass' and sort it out yourself!! For example, what is stopping Slasher going to SirScoots and getting the ball rolling with Players union getting team managers the word to send captains to a meeting @ an MLG or a DH where most of the players might be anyway, sitting down and drawing up plans for a players union. Its not just going to happen over night?! It needs to be taken by the horns and made. As for the E-Sports union that is alot harder to set up, because E-Sports isn't just SC2 its. CoD/FIFA/CS:S/DOTA/HON/SSF/TEKKEN/DOA/LOL/WOW/PGR (probably alot more i missed off but you get my point) This can't be done over night would take a huge meeting from a laeder of each individual sport etc, possible but alot of hard work. | ||
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Coal
Sweden1535 Posts
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Perfect
United States322 Posts
14 hours a day of talking is not easy for anyone. QUOTE] Have you met my wife? | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:45 Stark1 wrote: Would you be willing to give an insider perspective/estimate on what people are making? I'm not joking, talking about pro athletes' salaries in my country is commonplace. Casters are making a ridiculous amount more. It's not even fucking close compared to a middle ground pro. | ||
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Snijjer
United States989 Posts
They are most likely making what they are worth. | ||
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