The following is a somewhat abridged version of a twitter exchange between Slasher, EGHuK, Totalbiscuit and others.
It started with Slasher bemoaning his fate as the victim of Reddit hate threads on the back of his comments about professional SC2 players taking the helm as analytical casters in large SC2 tournaments.
I have removed some of the twitter comments, namely all of the ones from 'random people' as well as ones that I deemed to be peripheral to the discussion. It is also more than likely that I have missed some tweets as re-manufacturing this conversation from Twitter's sadly lacking interface was not simple.
Via Twitter
Slasher wrote: Wow I got two Reddit hate threads from my comments regarding players casting yesterday. Must say I like "Fuck Slasher... Seriously" better.
HuK wrote: @Slasher well ur comments were pretty ignorant as usual. if players were smart tho most would transition to casters; its a better job
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris I doubt you watched the show so how would you know what I said, unless you're also basing off of misconstrued reddit posts
HuK wrote: @Slasher so wat exactly did u say then unless what ppl have told me is wrong ?
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris Not gonna fit in tweets here honestly but what I said was that I would like to see us/eSports to get to the point that.
- we have a larger separation between between players and casters/journalists, which also lets each focus on their job better
- Artosis, Day, Tasteless, Apollo and Rotterdam are the best analytical casters, whats the last tournament any of them played?
HuK wrote: @Slasher top lvl players by default are almost always going to be better analytical casters then any of those sorry
@Slasher and u have to remember opportunities like this is how people even became casters, like @callmetasteless
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris I think the opportunity @callmetasteless is great, but whats the last tournament he played in? Players are nice and want to
HuK wrote: @Slasher @callmetasteless do u know the story of how @callmetasteless started casting?
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris yeah but im not disputing that, just that major tournaments (and i think MLG does it right) only uses casters, never players
@LorangerChris @callmetasteless support the community, help out when needed. This is all a future aspiration for professionalism.
HuK wrote: @Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris yes, THAT is bullshit. Players need to be paid and more popular than the players
.
HuK wrote: @Slasher that being said casters know their worth more then players, are more business savvy as well; players are dumb that way
dApollo wrote: @LorangerChris @Slasher though if a player wanted to transition over, they need to be gifted with speech/able to talk a lot with camera etc.
Totalbiscuit wrote: @slasher @lorangerchris I tend to agree with HuK tbh and I wanted to talk about that more last night. Basically the 2nd generation of analytical casters will be pro-players either doing it part-time or having retired. The current generation of analysts are ex-broodwar pros or in the case of Apollo, ex-CnC pro. And yes, a player will almost always know more than an analyst when it comes to cutting edge gameplay knowledge and insight.
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris yeah but im not disputing that, just that major tournaments (and i think MLG does it right) only uses casters, never players
HuK wrote: @Slasher and u have to remember opportunities like this is how people even became casters, like @callmetasteless
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris @callmetasteless support the community, help out when needed. This is all a future aspiration for professionalism.
HuK wrote: @Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
Totalbiscuit wrote: @LorangerChris @Slasher I wouldn't say most to be honest.
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris yes, THAT is bullshit. Players need to be paid and more popular than the players.
- The best analytical casters across all games were -former- pro players, as it should be. We'll need another ~7 years for players to retire.
- Er, of course the current top players are more knowledgeable when casting whatever game it is, but they are not 'casters' in my reference.
- Analytical casters aren't the same as play by play/host, which tends to be a tenured journalist (Bob Costas, Marv Albert, Gus Johnson).
- This is still the wild wild west. Multiple leagues, vastly different teams, no unified ruleset, no players union - Do as you please.
TLO wrote: @LiquidSheth @LorangerChris @Slasher @dapollo haha good stuff! why not right?
LiquidSheth wrote: Going to be casting some, and commentating. Why not be a player and a commentator?
RotterdaM wrote: @Slasher @LorangerChris I'll be playing homestory cup qualifiers for what its worth it :
Sorry to anyone left off and sorry for probably missing some of the conversation. However, this should give a good representation of the conversation in general.
Interesting. I must say I personally side with HuK as well. Besides, where are we gonna find new casting talent if we don't let pros cast, anyway? That's how most of the current casters got into their position!
I fixed your OP so it doesn't become a burden to read, use quotes please
The following is a somewhat abridged version of a twitter exchange between Slasher, EGHuK, Totalbiscuit and others.
It started with Slasher bemoaning his fate as the victim of Reddit hate threads on the back of his comments about professional SC2 players taking the helm as analytical casters in large SC2 tournaments.
I have removed some of the twitter comments, namely all of the ones from 'random people' as well as ones that I deemed to be peripheral to the discussion. It is also more than likely that I have missed some tweets as re-manufacturing this conversation from Twitter's sadly lacking interface was not simple.
Via Twitter
Slasher wrote: Wow I got two Reddit hate threads from my comments regarding players casting yesterday. Must say I like "Fuck Slasher... Seriously" better.
HuK wrote: @Slasher well ur comments were pretty ignorant as usual. if players were smart tho most would transition to casters; its a better job
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris I doubt you watched the show so how would you know what I said, unless you're also basing off of misconstrued reddit posts
HuK wrote: @Slasher so wat exactly did u say then unless what ppl have told me is wrong ?
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris Not gonna fit in tweets here honestly but what I said was that I would like to see us/eSports to get to the point that.
- we have a larger separation between between players and casters/journalists, which also lets each focus on their job better
- Artosis, Day, Tasteless, Apollo and Rotterdam are the best analytical casters, whats the last tournament any of them played?
HuK wrote: @Slasher top lvl players by default are almost always going to be better analytical casters then any of those sorry
- @Slasher and u have to remember opportunities like this is how people even became casters, like @callmetasteless
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris I think the opportunity @callmetasteless is great, but whats the last tournament he played in? Players are nice and want to
HuK wrote: @Slasher @callmetasteless do u know the story of how @callmetasteless started casting?
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris yeah but im not disputing that, just that major tournaments (and i think MLG does it right) only uses casters, never players
- @LorangerChris @callmetasteless support the community, help out when needed. This is all a future aspiration for professionalism.
HuK wrote: @Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris yes, THAT is bullshit. Players need to be paid and more popular than the players.
HuK wrote: @Slasher that being said casters know their worth more then players, are more business savvy as well; players are dumb that way
dApollo wrote: @LorangerChris @Slasher though if a player wanted to transition over, they need to be gifted with speech/able to talk a lot with camera etc.
Totalbiscuit wrote: @slasher @lorangerchris I tend to agree with HuK tbh and I wanted to talk about that more last night. Basically the 2nd generation of analytical casters will be pro-players either doing it part-time or having retired. The current generation of analysts are ex-broodwar pros or in the case of Apollo, ex-CnC pro. And yes, a player will almost always know more than an analyst when it comes to cutting edge gameplay knowledge and insight.
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris yeah but im not disputing that, just that major tournaments (and i think MLG does it right) only uses casters, never players
HuK wrote: @Slasher and u have to remember opportunities like this is how people even became casters, like @callmetasteless
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris @callmetasteless support the community, help out when needed. This is all a future aspiration for professionalism.
HuK wrote: @Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
Totalbiscuit wrote: @LorangerChris @Slasher I wouldn't say most to be honest.
Slasher wrote: @LorangerChris yes, THAT is bullshit. Players need to be paid and more popular than the players.
- The best analytical casters across all games were -former- pro players, as it should be. We'll need another ~7 years for players to retire.
- Er, of course the current top players are more knowledgeable when casting whatever game it is, but they are not 'casters' in my reference.
- Analytical casters aren't the same as play by play/host, which tends to be a tenured journalist (Bob Costas, Marv Albert, Gus Johnson).
- This is still the wild wild west. Multiple leagues, vastly different teams, no unified ruleset, no players union - Do as you please.
TLO wrote: @LiquidSheth @LorangerChris @Slasher @dapollo haha good stuff! why not right?
LiquidSheth wrote: Going to be casting some, and commentating. Why not be a player and a commentator?
RotterdaM wrote: @Slasher @LorangerChris I'll be playing homestory cup qualifiers for what its worth it :
Sorry to anyone left off and sorry for probably missing some of the conversation. However, this should give a good representation of the conversation in general.
Personally, I am curious to see where this goes.
_____________________
Not part of the OP HuK has a fair point, there is a lot of emphasis on the casters, I don't know much they get paid, but they are perhaps overpraised or even overacknowledged on whether a game is good or not.
Well, I can't see a lot of people not siding with HuK, it just seems so much more logical.
Maybe, when more top tier players have retired, we might see a more strict separation between players and casters because there could be a bigger talent pool with deeper knowledge to choose from. Right now, though, gifted analysts are just so rare that an articulate player who's willing to commentate should be more than welcomed because he provides extraordinary analysis we rarely ever get to hear from others.
A separation at the moment just doesn't make sense to me.
So this is basically a discussion about what qualifies someone to be an "analytical" caster and players casting, right? I have to be honest and say I'm not following this discussion and the fact that it's being held on twitter just makes the debate seem more cluttered to me. If someone could point out Slasher's actual stance on this subject to me in more than 150 characters it would be greatly appreciated.
Anyway, with my marginal understanding of what this is all about I'll just stick to believing this concept:
A caster, whether he/she is analytical or hyping in nature, should be eloquent and understandable in the language he/she is casting in. The language should be somewhat moderated to suit the audience (since one of the casters duties while casting is to keep the audience entertained) and the information a caster relays to the audience should not be longwinded as to stick with the flow of the game. These are the main traits a good caster should posses in my humble opinion.
If I'm correct in believing the original point was that players should leave casting to the casters I'd have to agree to a certain degree. If during a tournament a player wants to occupy himself with casting other matches I'd personally refuse him. Most of the bigger events probably made some effort in acquiring a set of casters who have the skill (in casting) to match the tournament. If for some reason it would be needed to fill a caster slot on very short notice I would probably prefer another caster present over a player. I'm not of the opinion that players are unsuitable for casting, but merely that they might not be able to uphold ALL the standards I personally set for casters.
That said, I am fully aware of the way Tasteless rolled into casting, and I know that some pro out there might walk down that same road one day, but that doesn't mean it is the go-to solution. Any player who wants to develop his casting skills for whatever reason he/she deemes worthy should definitely give it a shot. A major tournament however is not a place I would start. Take TLO for example. He filled in for Tasteless during Dreamhack and brought a lot of knowledge to the castingdesk that gave a better view of a pro-gamer's mindset. However since English is not his native language he sometimes had trouble finding the right words to express his thoughts. This might not seem that troubling since he was still somewhat entertaining as a caster, but it made me, and probably many more, focus a bit too much on what was being said and not enough on what was actually happening.
Since I'm kind of trailing from my point I'll stop with my conclusion: "The players of today are the casters of tomorrow. Even the smartest man needs to learn how to teach before he can pass on his wisdom, the same goes for casting."
Slasher is wrong and he seems like he's scared he'll be out of a job soon. His whole rant sounded more like caster protectionism because of fear of players making them obsolete.
Remember Homestory Cup? That was AWESOME and the casters were almost exclusively players in the tournament itself. They just know the game better than any of the full time casters. Besides, it's not like they are cheating by being a caster, they were going to watch the games anyways, and they can't tell anyone in-game anything either, so there is no reason why a player should be banned from casting while they are an active player, even within the same tournament, assuming they aren't busy playing.
What's pathetic is how so many full time casters STILL don't even know the hotkeys to the different information tabs, and often have no clue about the tournament format of the tournaments they cast. They are mostly the opposite of being more professional than players, which goes against Slasher's argument for professionalism.
Fans also really like players casting, and it's one of the very few things a player can do other than win a tournament to get noticed. As it stands, nobody even knows who most of the players are because the camera is always on the casters. I watched some Broodwar the other day, and the camera is basically never on the casters. Immediately after a win, all it does is show the players' faces to show their emotion, then their ceremonies, etc. In SC2, often times immediately after the game we just get to see the casters until the next game. We're lucky to even see the players at all before the finals.
Huk wins the argument. Just look at the Proleague - all the casters are former pros. The Proleague is a real esports organization, and they use former pros as casters, virtually exclusively.
I had honestly no idea who slasher was, except as a guy affiliated with MLG, but after seeing some of his stuff, I understand the hate. I can barely stand TotalBiscuit, honestly - he is so wrong, so much of the time. In the recent Dreamhack, his stream was only watchable due to Apollo. But at least TotalBiscuit has some understanding of SC2, he knows that he doesn't know much, and he defers his co-casters like Apollo or Tasteless.
The act of casting is difficult and energy-intensive, but lots of people can do it, including pro-players. Its not like there's a professional school-of-casting where people learn to be so great at casting that everyone else sucks in comparison. The difference is small. The difference in game knowledge between pro players and a gold-ladder caster is enormous. I'd gladly trade that small difference of caster fluency and smoothness for a huge jump in caster accuracy and insight.
I think the current setup is pretty good. Have a play-by-play caster to fill the airtime, and have the analyst/color caster control the camera and provide the in-depth analysis. The play-by-play caster needs lung capacity, dramatic bombast, and enough game knowledge to function, while the analytical caster should be a former/current pro with the knowledge to direct the viewers attention at key points and key decisions that players are making. But it would still be best if both casters were former pros, ala Tastosis.
Huk wins the argument. Just look at the Proleague - all the casters are former pros. The Proleague is a real esports organization, and they use former pros as casters, virtually exclusively.
Many real sports leauges like NFL, NHL, etc (For america at least) are old pros/coaches commentating the game. Esports should be the same way, they have the most insight why not use it.
Well the casters are the face of e sports right now, and I think they serve a very important role. Not knowing how much they are paid it is a bit hard to make judgement, but i think casters being paid what they are now is fair enough
Is this caster centered thing something from the west only? or does it also apply to Korea? I have no clue on the Korean community, to be honest, but from watching various tournaments, I got to the conclusion:
caster are sitting central on the main stage, booths are off to the side => western tournament (mlg, nasl, dh, ipl) booths are located centrally on the main stage => korean tournament (i.e. = GSL)
Casters are pretty damn important in game like Starcraft. During 1 average game of 15minutes, 10 minutes passes by without anything really important and cool going on in a game and casters are there to make these 10 minutes interesting. Without good casters even the best games aren't as good. I know for sure that I'd rather watch tastosis/day9/any great caster cast some random master ladder games than some really bad caster casting Huk's games. So yea, since casters are so important for enjoyment of this game I don't think players should be so much above casters at all.
Of course, I'm talking just about really good casters that invest a lot of time in it, not random casters around.
On November 30 2011 08:18 Xanatoss wrote: I wish this Slasher Guy would do less things that cause so much annoying Drama.
His show actually covers a lot of ESPORTS news and has guests that generate excellent discussions. It's a shame that one easily misconstrued and ambiguous comment like this get people up in arms and blind them to the other content that comes out of his show. It's such an inane topic anyway.
-- changed mind on this, play-by-play full-time casters have their value --
The current crop of casters are entirely made up of people not good at the game, and who therefore are wrong about so much of the things they say about the game, and who barely take their job seriously because they can't even remember the hotkeys for the resource tab and production tab. It's more about making jokes and either hyping up a player ridiculously or tearing down a player to the extreme. It would benefit their cast to add guest players to provide better analysis.
Players can be funny AND analytical, and with a rotation of players doing the casting, all the players will gain exposure and popularity so they can start to develop a fanbase.
On November 30 2011 08:18 Xanatoss wrote: I wish this Slasher Guy would do less things that cause so much annoying Drama.
His show actually covers a lot of ESPORTS news and has guests that generate excellent discussions. It's a shame that one easily misconstrued and ambiguous comment like this get people up in arms and blind them to the other content that comes out of his show. It's such an inane topic anyway.
The point is I really dont bother about Slashers ambitions but everytime I read his name its connected to either a very controversial discussion or plain stupid drama. And I get really tired of this.
On November 30 2011 08:24 JustPassingBy wrote: Is this caster centered thing something from the west only? or does it also apply to Korea? I have no clue on the Korean community, to be honest, but from watching various tournaments, I got to the conclusion:
caster are sitting central on the main stage, booths are off to the side => western tournament (mlg, nasl, dh, ipl) booths are located centrally on the main stage => korean tournament (i.e. = GSL)
In Korea, all the casters were former pro players that achieved significant success, and the emphasis is definitely on the players not the casters. The camera spends way more time on the players than they do in Western events, which are almost entirely caster dominated.
You can watch several MLG's and at the end of the day, have no idea what Slush or Sjow look like despite consistent moderate performance. However, if they were casting during their off times, we would know who they are and provide better analysis than any of the full-time casters.
I think HuK is just jalous of caster's paid... Sorry to say it this way but that's how it sound. Casters (Day9, Tasteless, Artosis, TotalBiscuit, Apollo, MrBitter, RoTTerdam, AND DJWHEAT LOL I FORGOT THE WHEAT) are all big figures in the community with huge fan base and great personnality : that's why they are so paid, because the community just love them and follow them even more than players, and not because they know how to justify their salary. Being a caster is not only about giving understanding what is going on, but also having some jokes / stories to fill the hole when nothing is happening, knowing how to explain thing (and it's different from understanding something), knowing how to talk in front of a camera / thousand viewers.
Say Tyler or IdrA for exemple are great analytical casters in my opinion : they are great to explain things, to put words on what they intend to do, but it's not the case for most high ranked players.
On November 30 2011 08:25 Zzoram wrote: I honestly think play-by-play is an outdated idea. We have eyes, we don't need someone to tell us what's happening.
Purely analytical casters explaining the decisions both players are making, and the possible responses they have to choose from in any given situation is much better casting and something that only active players can do.
The current crop of casters are entirely made up of people not good at the game, and who therefore are wrong about so much of the things they say about the game, and who barely take their job seriously because they can't even remember the hotkeys for the resource tab and production tab. It's more about making jokes and either hyping up a player ridiculously or tearing down a player to the extreme.
That said, we do need humor in casts. However, players can be funny AND analytical, and with a rotation of players doing the casting, all the players will gain exposure and popularity so they can start to develop a fanbase.
Basically, the glut of casters right now is unnecessary, they are of questionable quality, and the whole scene would be better off with fewer casters and more active players doing rotating casting at tournaments.
Shoving play-by-play commentary out of the way is probably a very bad idea. You may personally like pure analytical commentary in SC2, but just ask yourself the following: Am I truly able to watch a full match of (insert game/sport that you have little to no knowledge about) while listening to someone talking about the intricacies of correct form and breathing without paying any heed to the outcome of "battles" or the match itself? Because that is essentially whats left if play-by-play is removed. People will need someone to tell them "shit's on fire" when watching an OC float around while burning down. We need someone to point out how critical it is that the OC needs to be repaired in now and 10 seconds. I don't really care about the amount of income a player will lose if said OC dies, but rather of what a pivotal moment that is when the mule is landed but the OC dies right as it lands. Because that is what keeps attracting people to watch SC2.
On November 30 2011 08:33 WhiteDog wrote: I think HuK is just jalous of caster's paid... Sorry to say it this way but that's how it sound. Casters (Day9, Tasteless, Artosis, TotalBiscuit, Apollo, MrBitter, RoTTerdam) are all big figures in the community with huge fan base and great personnality : that's why they are so paid, because the community just love them and follow them even more than players, and not because they know how to justify their salary.
yah sure of all players out there, it would definitely be Huk who is jealous about what casters get paid...
On November 30 2011 08:25 Zzoram wrote: I honestly think play-by-play is an outdated idea. We have eyes, we don't need someone to tell us what's happening.
That's a parroted minority opinion. Why does that not apply to real sports, why are those guys who've been doing things the same way for decades suddenly outmoded because of a few people on an internet forum? Answer is they aren't, play-by-play excited so that viewers don't HAVE TO pay attention to all the nitty gritty and keep track of everything themselves, which as any actual caster will tell you, is exhausting. Sports analysis shows are niche for a reason and play-by-play/colour is used almost exclusively in sports broadcast to untold millions of people. One is more established than the other and with good reason.
I'm willing to wager that most people in that actual audience in the arena that night know why play-by-play is used.
The current crop of casters are entirely made up of people not good at the game.
Oh, you're one of those.
I don't think he's jealous, but casters are definitely the cushy easy job compared to being a player.
Casters don't have to practice 10 hours a day every day. Their biggest complaint is having to fly all over the world so much on someone else's dime.
As an example, I work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and we cast for 14 hours each day while the players played far less, so this is a stupid argument.
There is nothing easy about destroying your voice on a daily basis and then getting pissed on by randoms on a forum for doing so and if you believe otherwise I challenge you to try it.
Slasher wins by deafult, Huk is not understanding the point and talks about other stuff.
Players should not be casting as a job while playing the game as a pro. You need to separate the journalistic side and the team/player side. This is kind of what Kennigit was saying on sotg last time.
Even if that's true, I see no reason why players can't do that alongside analytical casting.
Homestory Cup was super popular entirely because of the players rotating through the casting bench, giving us a chance to see all these players as real people. As long as players don't cast, they'll be faceless robots that give the casters we know something to talk about.
On November 30 2011 08:33 WhiteDog wrote: I think HuK is just jalous of caster's paid... Sorry to say it this way but that's how it sound. Casters (Day9, Tasteless, Artosis, TotalBiscuit, Apollo, MrBitter, RoTTerdam) are all big figures in the community with huge fan base and great personnality : that's why they are so paid, because the community just love them and follow them even more than players, and not because they know how to justify their salary.
yah sure of all players out there, it would definitely be Huk who is jealous about what casters get paid...
Hey it's not a question of what Huk is winning, but more what he has to do to win what he is winning right now compared to what he considers casters have to do in order to get their "overpaid" salaries.
On November 30 2011 08:37 Jiddra wrote: Slasher wins by deafult, Huk is not understanding the point and talks about other stuff.
Players should not be casting as a job while playing the game as a pro. You need to separate the journalistic side and the team/player side. This is kind of what Kennigit was saying on sotg last time.
Casters aren't journalists. There are no journalists in eSports right now. Journalism involves hard hitting questions and breaking news, and casters provide neither of those things.
On November 30 2011 08:25 Zzoram wrote: I honestly think play-by-play is an outdated idea. We have eyes, we don't need someone to tell us what's happening.
Purely analytical casters explaining the decisions both players are making, and the possible responses they have to choose from in any given situation is much better casting and something that only active players can do. They are also free to point out any notable events going on, but it would be such a relief to not have to hear "He's moving out of his base. He's unsieging his tanks. He's making a planetary fortress." when it's something so basic and we can see it.
Play-by-play comes from radio, and while we could maybe use less of it, I still appreciate it. I usually leave the stream on while doing something else, so it's nice to have an audio cue of when I should pay attention.
Also, it makes the game a little more noob friendly. "Stim up the ramp" may be obvious to us, but the casual watcher probably needs to have that pointed out and explained. I didn't know jack about pro football when I started watching a few years ago, but now I know what a slant route or "giving up the soft corner" is.
On November 30 2011 08:25 Zzoram wrote: The current crop of casters are entirely made up of people not good at the game, and who therefore are wrong about so much of the things they say about the game, and who barely take their job seriously because they can't even remember the hotkeys for the resource tab and production tab. It's more about making jokes and either hyping up a player ridiculously or tearing down a player to the extreme.
[...]
Basically, the glut of casters right now is unnecessary, they are of questionable quality, and the whole scene would be better off with fewer casters and more active players doing rotating casting at tournaments.
I wouldn't go that far. But all the casters I respect are either former BW monsters or current pros.
Casters can make or break the quality of the stream.
Good casters bring a lot to the table and make a good game totally awesome. Bad casters ruin good games and make me want to watch something else. More then a few times i've been watching games with cringe worthy casting that made me not enjoy the game to find that day9 was there to save the day by commentating on his stream. ( <3 day9! )
Pretty much all the really good casters were at dreamhack in my opinion. And if those guys are getting well paid for their time I think that's great.
I didn't watch Slasher's show. But his point seems redundant/moot/wrong as far as I can tell. I'm sure we can all agree that the ideal situation is like it is in Korea where the casters are former players and they know their shit. Given that's not the case in foreignland, it's desirable for current players to step in and fill the void as they are the most qualified.
Is he saying that current players shouldn't cast as of right now? That makes no sense. That's what everybody wants. It's good for fans and the players who get to market themselves.
Emphasis should be more on the players rather than the casters, however, much like the case with TLO, there are exceptions to a player casting. Whether it be the circumstance or what not, I feel like if the player does know what he (or possibly she in the future) should be able to cast whenever they please. TLO is a former random player and is still known for switching races at will so I believe that his insight into the games he casted with Artosis and whoever else were all the more pleasing to watch. Casting is for the entertainment of the viewer so I don't see a problem with a player casting every now and then if it doesn't take away from the production value.
On November 30 2011 08:37 Jiddra wrote: Slasher wins by deafult, Huk is not understanding the point and talks about other stuff.
Players should not be casting as a job while playing the game as a pro. You need to separate the journalistic side and the team/player side. This is kind of what Kennigit was saying on sotg last time.
Casters aren't journalists. There are no journalists in eSports right now. Journalism involves hard hitting questions and breaking news, and casters provide neither of those things.
I belive you just offended sport journalists all over the world. Not every journalistic material is 60 minutes.
I'm not saying that I don't respect Day9 and Tastetosis. They're my favourite casters by far because they have legitimate roots in Starcraft and they're entertaining.
However, I don't understand why people are pretending that they're top level players or something. They're not. Their analysis is sometimes wrong because they're not top level players and may misread or misunderstand a few situations. That's fine, everyone makes mistakes and it's usually not too bad. I'm just saying that active high level players would provide better analysis.
Wouldn't MLG be so much better if instead of pairing Day9 with djWheat (who barely knows the game), he got paired with championship bracket players that were either not playing yet, or already eliminated? If say, Idra vs MC was casted by Day9 + Ret + Naniwa, HerO vs Leenock was casted by Day9 + Socke + Idra, and MVP vs MMA was casted by Day9 + DeMuslim + Thorzain? Day9 could provide the color commentary, and the two players, one of each race representing the players in the game being casted, could provide the insightful high level analysis and current metagame explanation.
That seems to me like it would be the ideal future of casting. 1 full-time caster that's play-by-play and humor combined with 2 guest high level players for the analysis and so we can get to know the players better so the players can get more fans.
On November 30 2011 08:46 Zzoram wrote: Wouldn't MLG be so much better if instead of pairing Day9 with djWheat (who barely knows the game), he got paired with championship bracket players that were either not playing yet, or already eliminated? If say, Idra vs MC was casted by Day9 + Ret + Naniwa, HerO vs Leenock was casted by Day9 + Socke + Idra, and MVP vs MMA was casted by Day9 + DeMuslim + Thorzain?
Yes please! Though, then the homestory cup wouldn't be anything special anymore. :-/
SC2 has struck a good balance at the moment. The casting setup where its a bunch of former players or established play-by-play commentators like TB works fine. Occasionally getting a pro to guest commentate/provide "expert" commentary is fine in small doses, but none of them are actually good enough with a microphone to want to hear for a whole tournament.Thats all I have to say.
On November 30 2011 08:46 Zzoram wrote: I'm not saying that I don't respect Day9 and Tastetosis. They're my favourite casters by far because they have legitimate roots in Starcraft and they're entertaining.
However, I don't understand why people are pretending that they're top level players or something. They're not. Their analysis is sometimes wrong because they're not top level players and may misread or misunderstand a few situations. That's fine, everyone makes mistakes and it's usually not too bad. I'm just saying that active high level players would provide better analysis.
Wouldn't MLG be so much better if instead of pairing Day9 with djWheat (who barely knows the game), he got paired with championship bracket players that were either not playing yet, or already eliminated? If say, Idra vs MC was casted by Day9 + Ret + Naniwa, HerO vs Leenock was casted by Day9 + Socke + Idra, and MVP vs MMA was casted by Day9 + DeMuslim + Thorzain?
Absolutely not. Why are people forgetting the charisma that our current popular casters have? There are very, VERY few players who could cast in a way as animated them and still be worthwhile because of their insight.
On November 30 2011 08:46 Zzoram wrote: I'm not saying that I don't respect Day9 and Tastetosis. They're my favourite casters by far because they have legitimate roots in Starcraft and they're entertaining.
However, I don't understand why people are pretending that they're top level players or something. They're not. Their analysis is sometimes wrong because they're not top level players and may misread or misunderstand a few situations. That's fine, everyone makes mistakes and it's usually not too bad. I'm just saying that active high level players would provide better analysis.
Wouldn't MLG be so much better if instead of pairing Day9 with djWheat (who barely knows the game), he got paired with championship bracket players that were either not playing yet, or already eliminated? If say, Idra vs MC was casted by Day9 + Ret + Naniwa, HerO vs Leenock was casted by Day9 + Socke + Idra, and MVP vs MMA was casted by Day9 + DeMuslim + Thorzain?
Absolutely not. Why are people forgetting the charisma that our current popular casters have? There are very, VERY few players who could cast in a way as animated them and still be worthwhile because of their insight.
Charisma is something subjective, though. He (or me) might not agree with your opinion on that one.
I like being told what is happening by a play-by-play caster even though I could look for myself. It makes it so I'm watching a sport instead of playing a mental chess problem. The audience's "part" is to feel the tension, cheer for a player, and so forth. The casters need to give me all the information, both play-by-play and analytical, so I can feel the right thing.
Being a good player doesn't automatically make you a good caster. There is a lot of other things involved besides game knowledge. And, even in the game knowledge field, being a player doesn't make you good at it. I bet a guy like Artosis has a lot more knowledge than the majority of the players.
Like in other (real) sports, there are people whose life is to watch and analyze tons of games, and it will make you knowledgeable, regardless if you play or not.
I've come around to that, I don't need convincing that play-by-play is valuable.
What I'm saying is that I still think it would be great to rotate through pro players as guest casters, one at a time maybe alongside the two full-time casters, both for the better analysis and for getting to know the players.
It's a damn shame that we can go through an MLG and not see one game or the face of a guy like Sjow or Slush even if they're doing better than some more famous players. Why not put them beside the casters for a game or two once they're eliminated so we can at least get to know them and put a face to the name?
Also, Idra or MC casting causes live threads to orgasm. There is clearly a demand for at least some pro players to participate more as guest casters, and it must be working on some level.
Also, Homestory Cup being a tournament that uses almost exclusively players for casting was beloved for that unique approach to casting. I think other big tournaments should invest in this idea more. Making all the players more visible will help them build fans, which makes their games feel more dramatic than just a bunch of faceless players facing off.
On November 30 2011 08:25 Zzoram wrote: I honestly think play-by-play is an outdated idea. We have eyes, we don't need someone to tell us what's happening.
Outdated for you maybe, but an interesting concept no one seems to grasp is ...
Everyone is DIFFERENT !
Just because you don't like a casting-style doesn't mean all other people dislike it aswell.
On November 30 2011 08:37 TotalBiscuit wrote: As an example, I work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and we cast for 14 hours each day while the players played far less, so this is a stupid argument.
There is nothing easy about destroying your voice on a daily basis and then getting pissed on by randoms on a forum for doing so and if you believe otherwise I challenge you to try it.
For sure it requires a lot of hard work, but it's also a very rewarding job where you get to have fun while doing it ! I have a friend who works 12 hour days at a factory doing the same monotomous task 1000's of times per day, now that's tough. Relative to most other jobs, you gotta admit casting is pretty sweet ! Not to say that you didn't earn it though, just bear in mind 99% of people posting have a lot worse jobs than you.
By the way, how comes this turned out into this analytical vs play-by-play discussion? I thought the central point of Huk's argumentation is that players get too little respect while casters are overpraised. (compare NASL, IPL, DH, where casters are in the center of the main stage + player booths to the very outer edge of the stage to GSL where the main stage only consists of the booths and the casters casts from the side)
edit: kind of curious how this came to be. I don't think it's the caster's "fault" because they put themselves onto the stage or the player's "fault" because they forgot something important other than playing the game at as a high level as they can.
On November 30 2011 08:20 YMCApylons wrote: Huk wins the argument. Just look at the Proleague - all the casters are former pros. The Proleague is a real esports organization, and they use former pros as casters, virtually exclusively.
Well you missed slasher's point because you are in fact agreeing with him. Slasher's stance is that retired/former pros should be casters and not current players. The example of proleague you just gave is what slasher wants
@orbtl Jake Sklarew @Slasher While the best analytical casters have been players, being a player does not = being a good caster. Let the pros establish themselves as casters and then bring them in. Then you get to preview whoever you're hiring.
Personally I'd prefer it if every dual/triple cast had one active progamer, cos it's pretty much impossible for anyone who isn't an active progamer to keep up with the whole metagame and everything. That's mostly for live events where the players just hang around and watch the games anyway, so they might as well cast. Obviously some players just aren't as suited (don't like to talk, don't speak good enough English etc) and there always needs to be at least one professional caster who can do all the talking/hyping.
On the same note I would have loved it if 2 players like Huk, Thorzain, Kas or Naniwa sat on the Dreamhack couch during the final and gave insight on the TvP happening, instead of for example TotalBiscuit, who admitted himself he can't really contribute much to the analysis.
edit: inb4 TotalBiscuit comes in here and says "here we go again" edit2: damn he already was in here...
On November 30 2011 08:57 JustPassingBy wrote: By the way, how comes this turned out into this analytical vs play-by-play discussion? I thought the central point of Huk's argumentation is that players get too little respect while casters are overpraised. (compare NASL, IPL, DH, where casters are in the center of the main stage + player booths to the very outer edge of the stage to GSL where the main stage only consists of the booths and the casters casts from the side)
Not respect, mainly treatment. I'm assuming there have been certain tournaments where HuK feels like he had a much harder time to perform at his peak than the casters did, probably because of selective treatment from the hosts.
Slasher is just stubborn and basically being an MLG elitist- saying they are right in every aspect compared to other leagues. No reason you can't cast once you've been knocked out of a tournament ( plenty of free time after all)
Casters income is a combination of ads from their non-tournament work, and the money they get paid for working at a tournament.
Players income, comes from viewers watching their stream and ad revenue, tournament winnings, and team salary.
If one is bigger than the other, than the individuals should be doing something about it. Not arguing over twitter. If you disagree with casters getting paid more than players, then you as a player should selling yourself, being more interesting. Have you seen these interviews with the players? Is there anything interesting about them? Have you seen the questions the media asks? Is there a single interesting question? That is the important thing right now.
Ok so my thoughts have come around to basically this:
full-time caster pair (as we currently have ) + 1 guest pro for live events = ultimate casting
The pro doesn't have to talk that much if he's uncomfortable or has Engrish, but they can provide better analysis when it's needed. Also, we get to know the pro and he gets more fans and appreciation for his work. It also acts as a job interview of sorts, because one day some of these pros are going to become the best casters, and this gives them a chance to find out if they like it, and fans a chance to figure out if they like that player as a caster.
Honestly, if the community (or most of the community) likes a person speaking when games are played, regardless of his style/knowledge, then he will be fine, if not, people will realise in time and he will stop being popular and probably leave the scene or play a minor part only. The play-by-play vs analytical debate (into "but ___ sport always does this" and "but SC2 isn't ___ sport." flamewars) has gone on too long, with not much accomplished, I say vote with your views in this wild west of a scene.
Comparing sc2 to regular sports is not the best thing to do. Sports have far less complex strategy compared to starcraft. Roger Federer commentating a tennis match won't give me greater insight than any other well informed commentator.
But in sc2, idra literally knows Zerg orders of magnitude times greater than TB (although tb is awesome) and specialist commentators will simply never reach that level of analysis. Even hearing coaches doing post match analysis in football is not really that much more insightful than your bread and butter analyst.
Analytical commentators don't truly exist outside of Pro players. Artosis thinks 1 base colossus hard counters 1/1/1. Apollo is pretty correct but is not as in depth
On November 30 2011 08:20 YMCApylons wrote: Huk wins the argument. Just look at the Proleague - all the casters are former pros. The Proleague is a real esports organization, and they use former pros as casters, virtually exclusively.
Well you missed slasher's point because you are in fact agreeing with him. Slasher's stance is that retired/former pros should be casters and not current players. The example of proleague you just gave is what slasher wants
Uhh...no. Slasher is making a big deal about "professional" casters, as if casting is a secret dark art. Proleague hires former pros because they acknowledge the obvious truth that pro-players make better casters, and because current pros work too hard to do casting on the side. They don't give two-shits about "professional casting." Hire former pros who the fans like, and casting basically solves itself.
If Huk wants to do casting on the side, and he doesn't think it would hurt his game, I'd totally support that. Nal_Ra, the BW pro and now caster, went out of retirement to play in Proleague qualifers, and no one cared that he was breaking the magical player/caster wall that slasher insists on.
Pro players are going to be better analytical casters, retired or not. The only reasonable objection to current pros casting is if their team managers don't want them wasting time casting.
On November 30 2011 08:20 YMCApylons wrote: Huk wins the argument. Just look at the Proleague - all the casters are former pros. The Proleague is a real esports organization, and they use former pros as casters, virtually exclusively.
Well you missed slasher's point because you are in fact agreeing with him. Slasher's stance is that retired/former pros should be casters and not current players. The example of proleague you just gave is what slasher wants
Uhh...no. Slasher is making a big deal about "professional" casters, as if casting is a secret dark art. Proleague hires former pros because they acknowledge the obvious truth that pro-players make better casters, and because current pros work too hard to do casting on the side. They don't give two-shits about "professional casting." Hire former pros who the fans like, and casting basically solves itself.
If Huk wants to do casting on the side, and he doesn't think it would hurt his game, I'd totally support that. Nal_Ra, the BW pro and now caster, went out of retirement to play in Proleague qualifers, and no one cared that he was breaking the magical player/caster wall that slasher insists on.
Pro players are going to be better analytical casters, retired or not. The only reasonable objection to current pros casting is if their team managers don't want them wasting time casting.
The Korean leagues never hired "pro players" willy-nilly. Each of those commentators had a personality that was amazing for conveying the tone of the game and for involving the audience.
It's like someone said earlier. Do you want MajOr casting at MLG? No, you want a "pro" who's already a community favourite. Chances are they're a community favourite because of their personality, moreso than their skill.
On November 30 2011 08:46 Zzoram wrote: Wouldn't MLG be so much better if instead of pairing Day9 with djWheat (who barely knows the game), he got paired with championship bracket players that were either not playing yet, or already eliminated? If say, Idra vs MC was casted by Day9 + Ret + Naniwa, HerO vs Leenock was casted by Day9 + Socke + Idra, and MVP vs MMA was casted by Day9 + DeMuslim + Thorzain? Day9 could provide the color commentary, and the two players, one of each race representing the players in the game being casted, could provide the insightful high level analysis and current metagame explanation.
That seems to me like it would be the ideal future of casting. 1 full-time caster that's play-by-play and humor combined with 2 guest high level players for the analysis and so we can get to know the players better so the players can get more fans.
1) The players should be paid for their services if they take on a casting role during a tournament.
2) If an active player is going to take on any form of casting role, they should be eliminated from the tournament. I don't know if you understand just how much of a hassle it would be for the players to have to run around in between games to cast other games. A lot of the time these guys are doing everything they can just to find 10 minutes to eat their LUNCH in between games. I actually question just how many players would actually WANT to be involved in the casting during a tournament that they're playing.
3) Slasher is arguing for the exact same thing that many people in this thread continue to point out. That former players should be filling the casting jobs. That's how it's done in pro-league, and that's how it should be done. Where I would disagree with him is the situation where a player was eliminated earlier in the tournament, or doesn't have any more scheduled games for the day. Then let's get the player on there if they want to! But that said, when was the last time you saw Jaedong, Flash or Bisu cast a live game?
4) During the specific conversation being discussed, Mr Bitter wasn't specifically arguing that active players should be casting the games live. His specific point was that a player or two should be "on the couch" for the analysis between games. Which I think is a fantastic idea. Sports programs use active coaches and players all time for half-time analysis, which is essentially what "the couch" was being used for. It's noteworthy though, that sports programs do this during the playoffs, and they only bring on coaches and players that have already been eliminated from competition. You're not going to get Derek Jeter on your show to do half-time analysis on Tuesday, when he has a game coming up on Wednesday. But if it's the second-round of the playoffs and the Yankees were bumped in round 1. It's absolutely a legitimate possibility.
On November 30 2011 08:46 Zzoram wrote: Wouldn't MLG be so much better if instead of pairing Day9 with djWheat (who barely knows the game), he got paired with championship bracket players that were either not playing yet, or already eliminated? If say, Idra vs MC was casted by Day9 + Ret + Naniwa, HerO vs Leenock was casted by Day9 + Socke + Idra, and MVP vs MMA was casted by Day9 + DeMuslim + Thorzain? Day9 could provide the color commentary, and the two players, one of each race representing the players in the game being casted, could provide the insightful high level analysis and current metagame explanation.
That seems to me like it would be the ideal future of casting. 1 full-time caster that's play-by-play and humor combined with 2 guest high level players for the analysis and so we can get to know the players better so the players can get more fans.
1) The players should be paid for their services if they take on a casting role during a tournament.
2) If an active player is going to take on any form of casting role, they should be eliminated from the tournament. I don't know if you understand just how much of a hassle it would be for the players to have to run around in between games to cast other games. A lot of the time these guys are doing everything they can just to find 10 minutes to eat their LUNCH in between games. I actually question just how many players would actually WANT to be involved in the casting during a tournament that they're playing.
3) Slasher is arguing for the exact same thing that many people in this thread continue to point out. That former players should be filling the casting jobs. That's how it's done in pro-league, and that's how it should be done. Where I would disagree with him is the situation where a player was eliminated earlier in the tournament, or doesn't have any more scheduled games for the day. Then let's get the player on there if they want to! But that said, when was the last time you saw Jaedong, Flash or Bisu cast a live game?
4) During the specific conversation being discussed, Mr Bitter wasn't specifically arguing that active players should be casting the games live. His specific point was that a player or two should be "on the couch" for the analysis between games. Which I think is a fantastic idea. Sports programs use active coaches and players all time for half-time analysis, which is essentially what "the couch" was being used for. It's noteworthy though, that sports programs do this during the playoffs, and they only bring on coaches and players that have already been eliminated from competition. You're not going to get Derek Jeter on your show to do half-time analysis on Tuesday, when he has a game coming up on Wednesday. But if it's the second-round of the playoffs and the Yankees were bumped in round 1. It's absolutely a legitimate possibility.
Good points. I think this would be an acceptable middle ground.
There are a lot a figures in the whole E-Sports community that are true ambassadors of the art of gaming and people that can only do us good based on their role, performances and professionalism.
However, it saddens me to see the other side of things, and unfortunately, it's exactly the "dark side" that will keep E-Sports from taking the next step. I just listened to a group of personalities of the game counting down to shout out loud "F*CK Slasher" and encouraging the community to do the same via the social networks.
Not to take any sides here, but these case is a pure example of the broken train that is the E-Sports community at the moment. Having guys using the expression "f*cking baller" in a broadcast is not going to attract new populations. Having shows were casters go 100% of the time talking like they were off the record is not helping either.
Until the most notable personalities of the game take a more responsible and professional approach to things, there's not going forward.
Casting requires a completely, COMPLETELY different set of skills than playing. Also, everyone seems to keep forgetting just how small a percentage masters and higher ranked people are compared to the entire SC fan and playerbase, and realistically, NO ONE who is below high masters will benefit from extremely precise metagame analyses and predictions much more than he will from "MACRO BETTER PLX KTNXBAI".
It may be hard to comprehend because TL's kind of an "elite" environment (and I mean that in the absolutely best possible way, in fact, I'd say that that "elitism" is exactly what lets TL shine and be the best goddamn community in the universe ) where the average skill level is probably way, WAY above a "common" average SC2 player, but the truth is, like TB said, people who demand high level analysis both in Starcraft and in other sports ARE more or less a niche audience. The fact that we (the TL community) have extremely high standards - the exact thing that makes TL special - means that we often forget we are the huge minority, at least purely number-wise.
It may be COOL for your average Silver, Gold, even a Diamond league player to hear and know about all that stuff, but he won't have much use for it, and for literally >95% of people, entertainment value is the #1 factor when watching streams. If you can mix both it and high level analysis (Tastosis, Day9), more power to you, and those casters truly are the best of the best, but if you have to pick, I'd say MOST people (not necessarily saying "most people from TL", mind you) would go with entertainment value.
I actually don't think players know more about the game than casters. I feel that is a common misconception. Casters see thousands of games from a top-down perspective. Players have only their limited experience.
This seems like a stupid topic for Slasher & Huk to throw back and forth at each other via twitter. but i guess that's what twitter was created for. Huk go on <whatever slashers show is called> and debate him. Or slasher go on SOTG and debate Huk there. It doesn't matter how much you know. It matters how well you can convey that information. Honestly TB is not a great caster/analysis (he even admits that); but he knows how to talk to a crowd and keep things entertaining. And what's the purpose of esports? 1) give a platform for participants to compete against one another to win cash and prizes. 2) give a platform for spectators to be entertained.
On November 30 2011 09:35 kiy0 wrote: There are a lot a figures in the whole E-Sports community that are true ambassadors of the art of gaming and people that can only do us good based on their role, performances and professionalism.
However, it saddens me to see the other side of things, and unfortunately, it's exactly the "dark side" that will keep E-Sports from taking the next step. I just listened to a group of personalities of the game counting down to shout out loud "F*CK Slasher" and encouraging the community to do the same via the social networks.
Not to take any sides here, but these case is a pure example of the broken train that is the E-Sports community at the moment. Having guys using the expression "f*cking baller" in a broadcast is not going to attract new populations. Having shows were casters go 100% of the time talking like they were off the record is not helping either.
Until the most notable personalities of the game take a more responsible and professional approach to things, there's not going forward.
Sad... but true.
Swearing reeks of immaturity and is perceived as such by the rest of society but this is the internet, it'll take a long time to get people to clean up their language and be truly professional.
All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies.
On November 30 2011 09:41 Lore-Fighting wrote: I actually don't think players know more about the game than casters. I feel that is a common misconception. Casters see thousands of games from a top-down perspective. Players have only their limited experience.
I think just the inverse of that is true.
In order to be a good player, you not only have to watch a ton of games from the top down perspective, but you have to watch them with huge personal interest. For casters, stating the concepts and problems is enough. For players, understanding the concepts and solving the problems means they keep their job. Players watch tons of replays with no energy spent on how their talking about the game will provide entertainment for a crowd, it is purely studious. Players will have first hand experience on the possibilities, limitations, and nuances in all circumstances- the caster's perspective is limited to top down, the player has extensive experience with both.
On November 30 2011 09:47 Kamikazess wrote: All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies.
That's what every lower league player thinks about themselves and it's very rarely true. If you really have a good understanding of the game, you can easily hit Masters with ~40 APM, no problem. It's easy for everyone to be an armchair general, but when you actually have to remember to, for example, scout at a right time, and know EXACTLY how to react without Artosis explaining it to you, then it becomes a problem. At below high masters, building that Barracks 5 or even 10 seconds too late doesn't mean jack shit. Nothing to do with mechanics, everything to do with decision making and actually understanding the game.
HuK wrote: @Slasher point is that right now most casters are overpaid, overpraised, and better treated then players, even though some are subpar tbh
This point really annoys me tbh, when I watch a cast from a large tournament that is paying its casters a salary and the caster knows wayyyy less then me and most masters players be in it an analytical or a play by play roll I feel pissed that they have done nothing in terms of working at learning the game to get that amazing opportunity.
Huk says casters are overpaid and treated better than players, eh?
So what about that whole life changing money we kept hearing about when he went to EG? What about how in every interview he talks about how he's babied so he can completely focus on the game? Grass is greener on the other side I guess. If you're a player, you should be focusing on how to win. Not worrying about who's casting and who isn't.
Unless this whole SC2 as an eSport is a total farce and is all about the money instead of being the best.
On November 30 2011 09:47 Kamikazess wrote: All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies.
Not to don the robe and gavel, but I strongly suspect that if you put the effort in to try to execute, you'd come to find that you don't actually understand nearly as much as you think you do.
In bw, I thought I understood, but didn't play enough. Understanding sc2 quite a bit better and looking back, I realize that I actually didn't know shit about bw.
On November 30 2011 09:47 Kamikazess wrote: All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies.
In part this is true, but in otherways it's not.
I was listening to Tyler talk about elfy vs idra post IEM on state of the game and his statements about how what elfy did wrong made me realise that I don't know shit.
But the otherside of that coin is that tasteless and artosis cast every code s game. They do not need to be code s level players because they watch and disucuss every single code s game. They are like a judging panel which every top tier player presents their best game to weekly. They probably have the best theoretical grasp of TvT in the western world.
I love the fact that Slashers only argument for this debate was "separation of pros and commentators equals higher levels of professionalism", This is one reason I LOVE the fighting game community, they haven't been completely tainted by the push for PROFESSIONAL ESPORT GAMING 2K12.
That said slasher has done this since the dawn of time so I'm not sure why im suprised.
On November 30 2011 09:47 Kamikazess wrote: All this talking about lesser ranked players being less able to understand more analytical commentary is really a misconception, for me. There are a lot of players (me included, I most say), that aren't in Masters or GM but understand the game a lot, due to the huge amount of hours invested watching the game. We only don't have the mechanical ability to reproduce these strategies.
That's what every lower league player thinks about themselves and it's very rarely true. If you really have a good understanding of the game, you can easily hit Masters with ~40 APM, no problem. It's easy for everyone to be an armchair general, but when you actually have to remember to, for example, scout at a right time, and know EXACTLY how to react without Artosis explaining it to you, then it becomes a problem. At below high masters, building that Barracks 5 or even 10 seconds too late doesn't mean jack shit. Nothing to do with mechanics, everything to do with decision making and actually understanding the game.
Every example you used is related to mechanics. Mechanics isn't only high APM, it's my entire execution, timings, etc.
When I say "understand the game", is to know the reasoning behind the decisions, behind the movements in the battlefield, behind the build orders. As I said, it's to know, not to execute.
And, no, executing isn't only a matter of knowing when/how.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that I have a great understanding of the game. Absolutely not! This is the reason (along with entertainment), that make me watch streams and VODs everyday. But, I really think my skill level when playing isn't directly related to my knowledge.
On November 30 2011 09:56 Jerglings wrote: Huk says casters are overpaid and treated better than players, eh?
So what about that whole life changing money we kept hearing about when he went to EG? What about how in every interview he talks about how he's babied so he can completely focus on the game? Grass is greener on the other side I guess. If you're a player, you should be focusing on how to win. Not worrying about who's casting and who isn't.
Unless this whole SC2 as an eSport is a total farce and is all about the money instead of being the best.
I think huk is talking about "players" not just himself. It's possible to do things like that. You don't have to set your own house on fire before you're allowed to help your neighbour with their burning home.
On November 30 2011 10:00 Kamikazess wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not saying that I have a great understanding of the game. Absolutely not! This is the reason (along with entertainment), that make me watch streams and VODs everyday. But, I really think my skill level when playing isn't directly related to my knowledge.
What I am saying is that people very often overvalue their knowledge when it's being handed to them on a silver platter. When Day9 says "yeah unsieging those tanks and pulling out right there is the exact thing XY needed to do", EVERYONE will say "yeah ofc that makes sense", but I can bet that if you took a random VOD of a, for example, GSL game you never saw before, paused and asked yourself "okay so what SHOULD this guy do now" , you would be either completely stumped or terribly, terribly wrong about what he actually does.
tl;dr it's easy to "understand" the game when someone is explaining it to you, not so easy when you actually have to make educated guesses and predictions using your knowledge.
On November 30 2011 09:56 Jerglings wrote: Huk says casters are overpaid and treated better than players, eh?
So what about that whole life changing money we kept hearing about when he went to EG? What about how in every interview he talks about how he's babied so he can completely focus on the game? Grass is greener on the other side I guess. If you're a player, you should be focusing on how to win. Not worrying about who's casting and who isn't.
Unless this whole SC2 as an eSport is a total farce and is all about the money instead of being the best.
Um he's basically the only player paid a good salary, other than maybe Idra.
He's not wrong to say players aren't treated well at tournaments. They don't even get a break to eat food or go to the washroom at MLG open bracket without risking disqualification. It's hard for players to play their best and compete if they're hungry and have to pee.
On November 30 2011 09:56 Jerglings wrote: Huk says casters are overpaid and treated better than players, eh?
So what about that whole life changing money we kept hearing about when he went to EG? What about how in every interview he talks about how he's babied so he can completely focus on the game? Grass is greener on the other side I guess. If you're a player, you should be focusing on how to win. Not worrying about who's casting and who isn't.
Unless this whole SC2 as an eSport is a total farce and is all about the money instead of being the best.
I think huk is talking about "players" not just himself. It's possible to do things like that. You don't have to set your own house on fire before you're allowed to help your neighbour with their burning home.
The problem with that is what I see a lot of on TL. People want the SC2 scene to be what the BW scene became after years of development and growth. SC2 has only been out for a little less than a year and a half. Teams, especially foreign, won't be able to support their players for a long time. Remember that team incomes are separate from casters, which are employed by tournaments. It's much easier for a big name tournament to throw money at casters to bring in viewership for a couple of days than it is for a team to support a player for an extended period of time when the game is so new.
But like I was saying. If money matters so much to the players, then they need to play harder. HuK got his money through sacrifice, dedication, and hard work over in Korea. If players want that kind of money now, then they need to start playing on that level.
I can't help but feel like this is a topic that doesn't need to be discussed, thank slasher for bringing up another pointless topic. We are no where near where BW is and even further from how actual sports are handled. But in all cases the best analyst casters were once pro players and the only reason they got into casting was because while they were still a pro they had an opportunity to it try out. Can't blame people for wanting money and you can't blame the organizations who give guaranteed paychecks to casters because they are guaranteed going to be putting in more hours than the players. There is a reason why artosis/tasteless want to play this game professionally but physically can't because casting is extremely demanding and you are actually devoting more time in game (excluding practice time of course!) then the players.
I'm always impressed by how much of a marathon these casters go through at MLG and DH and it's not surprising that they get paid more, end of story.
I often wonder if Slasher is making these kinds of ignorant statements because he means them or just to get reaction from the community. Any publicity is good publicity and all that.
On topic: I feel that the viewer community is siding with the players on this one, as they should. We should all remember that all of our top casters today got to that position by being top-tier players in their own rights. Denying players from doing this is basically bad for everyone that loves the gameplay.
No one can ever deny that good players are more knowledgeable about mechanics, strategies, etc. He did make a good point that not every player is suited as a caster, since that requires a certain degree of performance and narrative skill. But denying players the 'right' to cast simple because they are players and should therefore "stick to playing starcraft and but out" is retarded. I feel this is either a silly cry for attention or an attempt of lesser-skilled casters to secure their position. The latter might be true as I've noticed an increasing amount of demand by the community for so-called 'analytic casters'.
At some point in the future, most casters(if not all) will have been high level pros in SC2. That really wont happen until we start to get people retiring from this generation of gamers. If we are talking about casters in there here and now I highly doubt that you will see "gamer/casters" at all.
The time commitment to be a caster at a high level is huge. Its actually not that easy to cast games, although some people think it is. Being engaging to your audience for just several hours is hard enough, but to do it on a daily/weekly biases for sometimes up to 8-10+ hours on air at a time I cant even imagine. What a lot of people on TL forget I think is that the target demographic for these companies(such as MLG) do not care if the casters make some mistakes they probably don't even notice them if they are not major. What they want is good camera control, exciting play by play and entertaining commentary.
Right now casters are the face of esports, and I think Sundance of MLG talks a lot about it in his TL interview. Players need to learn how to interact with fans, and be characters. If you want to show companies like MLG that you(as a pro gamer) can cast, you actually have to give them something to look at. Why would they ever just let pros get up on stage at their major events as some people here are suggesting, most players are horrible with their fan interactions and are totally uninteresting when talking.
If a pro puts the time in, and shows he is a great caster of course they are going to get picked up by the major events. I see no one doubting that, what I don't see is any pro that has done that yet(and is still a programmer).
TBH most players can't bring in the viewer numbers that the prominent casters can. There are exceptions, of course, but the casters (may?) get paid better because they're simply worth more to the sponsors/organizers/whoever. The future of casting will probably lie with retired pros, but only a few of them will be able to make the transition. Watch the player interviews from any major tournament, and it will become painfully obvious that most players are NOT casting material.
I don't think its feasible for full-time players to succeed at tournaments and also do casting. They both require a ton of time, if different skill-sets.
As an aside, regarding the relative lack of separation between casters, pros, and the community, one of my favorite things about SC2 is how much closer I feel (as a fan) to the pros and the casters. I don't think I'm alone, either. Pros who stream more and interact more with their fans seem to reap vastly larger viewer numbers. Being able to come home from work, crack a beer, and tune in to a caster or pro gamer's stream is just something that has no parallel in any other "sport."
That casualness does have some downsides, though. Often I'll be watching a tournament only to see a player, or worse, a caster let slip some manner of profanity or engage in some other unprofessional behavior. Part of me thinks "no big deal, kinda funny." Then I remember the stream is live for more than 40,000 people with who knows how many attending at the venue.
This can't just be us nerds chilling in our living rooms laughing at off-color jokes any more. "eSports" is fragile; it has a ton of potential, but if we want it to continue to grow, if we want it to be taken seriously, we'll need to grow up some. That means fans as well as players and casters.
On November 30 2011 09:41 Lore-Fighting wrote: I actually don't think players know more about the game than casters. I feel that is a common misconception. Casters see thousands of games from a top-down perspective. Players have only their limited experience.
I think just the inverse of that is true.
In order to be a good player, you not only have to watch a ton of games from the top down perspective, but you have to watch them with huge personal interest. For casters, stating the concepts and problems is enough. For players, understanding the concepts and solving the problems means they keep their job. Players watch tons of replays with no energy spent on how their talking about the game will provide entertainment for a crowd, it is purely studious. Players will have first hand experience on the possibilities, limitations, and nuances in all circumstances- the caster's perspective is limited to top down, the player has extensive experience with both.
Players only care about their race... I wonder how HuK would cast a ZvT. See a player such as Rotterdam, he is an amazing protoss behind his famous casting skills, but he is obviously better when there is a protoss playing (or a zerg, he has an amazing zerg play) while Day9 is a master league level in every race. So of course he is not gona be as good as HuK in a 1v1, but he can cast and understand every game, take the angle of every possible players, and still share a huge number of things to us viewers.
Also, there are caster such as DjWheat that don't need any knowledge to be awesome, he just needs to talk and it's done, the game is enjoyable (I'm not saying wheat has no knowledge, just that he doesn't need it since he is so awesome, just like tasteless).
If you are good at what you do then you have no need to be worried.
However, Chris is right on this one and I've already said it many times over. In many cases the best analysis will come from the actual players themselves. If they have good communication skills then they're exceptional.
We saw it in Home Story Cup and a few other major LAN tournaments. If you want to learn something and get inside the players heads then these guys will deliver the goods. That's why I always look forward to those events because I know what is said will be top notch and also give you their perspective.
I don't really agree with Huk. I understand what he's saying... But, Players usually only play one race so it leads to a lot of bias in casting and say for example Huk was commentating with Tasteless for example, Tasteless being the play by play guy and Huk analysing it, unlike for example when Artosis who knows a lot about all the races would be able to explain things from both sides, Huk would only be able to do it from the side of the Protoss which isn't really insightful to users. Huk has his knowledge of other races by playing against them, but in eSports, unlike real sports I don't think ex players of SC2 need to be casters (right now). I mean the majority of casters now played Broodwar or some other RTS.
I would easily say Apollo is one of the best casters there is and he never really played Broodwar. Admittedly he coaches a team, same goes for Artosis. The other one who is a fantastic caster is Day9. He's made his living now by analysing games on various livestreaming services for the good of the community and apparently he has masters accounts on all races. Now I'm probably going to sound biased here, but just because he doesn't play at the pro-level, but he knows more than the majority of players IMO. He's viewed games from a top down perspective for a long time and can see exactly what both players are doing, players cannot. He knows a hell of a lot, he may not just execute it as well as some players.
Heck, even look at DJWheat, he's in Diamond or Masters, but he makes games incredibly fun to watch as he brings energy to the casting. I'm sure if there were players who were articulate/not camera shy enough they would cast, but as we saw at the GSL with Jason Lee and Idra. Idra may be knowledgable about Zerg, but his casting is very dry and boring as he didn't really know how to do it as well as the casters we have on the scene right now.
On November 30 2011 11:16 Zidane wrote: Why do people even care about Slasher's opinion?
Why do people insist on distorting his opinion is the better question?
Honestly i sometimes wonder... Does anyone else find it strange we are even having this discussion? Obviously the best case would be a combination of a former pro and a "host" of some kind (the role Tasteless fills in the GSL, basically the guy who talks a lot to fill in the empty seconds where nothing interesting is happening). No one disagrees with that. But being a pro gamer (or a former pro gamer) doesn't necessarily make you a brilliant caster. You need to be able to speak well in public and to express your thoughts in such a way that everyone understands you (including those who are not high masters) to make the cast interesting. That is the area where many current pro gamers have serious problems.
And yes, i watched the Homestory cup, but frankly aside from their comedic value many of the Pros casting were not doing a very good job. Some of them completly failed at observing the minimap while casting, something they probably do by reflex when playing.
I'd probably agree immediatly that any successfull player could become a great caster once he stopped playing, because at that point he could invest the hours needed into becoming a good one.
And yes, Slasher would probably agree with you that some casters currently aren't quite where they should be, but who else is there? It's not as if successfull retired SC2 progamers are around yet.... Hell there aren't that many retired SCBW pros in the western scene, and those that are still left are already casting.
First, several years from now, Huk's point about analytical casters will probably stand. Right now, I'm not really inclined to trust top players just because they're top players, given that results often come and go by means which do not really illustrate in-depth knowledge and expertise in the game (which arguably nobody has in SC2 yet anyway).
Second, analytical mindset and the ability to express one's knowledge of the game aren't skills that all players necessarily have. Even at the highest level of play. Much in the same way that not every passionate hardcore gamer can be a game designer. When Bisu was asked why his PvZ was so good in an interview, he actually couldn't articulate an answer, he couldn't explain it. However, if you ask somebody like Tyler or Day9 why Bisu's PvZ is so good, they might actually be able to give you a better answer than the man himself.
Third, and this is a very personal opinion - I feel like the importance of analysis is way overstated on TL. For me the casters are "only" there to provide additional entertainment to the game, and I feel the same way when I listen to Artosis and TLO as when I listen to TB and Khaldor casting. I can't imagine anyone serious about improving in SC2 actually learning the game by listening to an analytical caster do on-the-fly analysis during a game. All of these analysis are flawed because it's impossible to perfectly read the game without watching over a VOD/replay several times to understand it entirely. All of these casters make mistakes all the time, and I can't see players doing it all that much better anyway.
My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
Quite frankly Huk's statements about caster pay are extremely asinine.
Sundance had it EXACTLY right in his TL interview when he said that basically, the casters are the viewer's portal into the match, and that, due to their sheer amount of time in front of the audience (online especially) they are arguably the most important part of any presentation, and they should be paid accordingly. I have absolutely no problem with the caster pay. Player pay should and will rise, but as eSports is an emerging market promoting and cultivating the best presentation possible is what is important right now. Like it or not.
Those that are saying Slasher is worrying about his job need to wise up as well, at this point he is a journalist, not a caster, and looking at professional sports in the US there is nothing to indicate that the player-> journalist transition is something that will ever happen.
Has anyone ever stopped to consider that Slasher would just like eSports to reach a point where players do not have enough time to put into casting else they lose their competitive edge, and vice versa? If John Gruden is out of a job, then certainly, being a commentator for Monday Night Football is a great gig, however when he get's hired to a new team he will not have time to keep up quality coaching and commentating, so he will chose.
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
Because comparing casters to the highest paid player is a fair comparison?
On November 30 2011 09:56 Jerglings wrote: Huk says casters are overpaid and treated better than players, eh?
So what about that whole life changing money we kept hearing about when he went to EG? What about how in every interview he talks about how he's babied so he can completely focus on the game? Grass is greener on the other side I guess. If you're a player, you should be focusing on how to win. Not worrying about who's casting and who isn't.
Unless this whole SC2 as an eSport is a total farce and is all about the money instead of being the best.
huk represents a select handful of pro players.
most casters that comment the game (except for a few) have lower than diamond understanding of the game. most aren't even funny and miss quite a bit of action.
I feel Slasher contradicts himself a lot, that's why I don't like him -_-
Slasher basically says: "Reddit is hating on me because I said that players shouldn't be casters; but I agree with u huk, the best casters were players!"
Yeah, I agree a lot with Huk. To this day the best analytical casting I have ever heard was Idra when he used to moonlight in that capacity.
If we're going with the standard model which seems to be one shoutcaster/one analyst then there is always the space for some kind of pro player to hop in and do some of that at tournaments, if not full time then at least occasionally. I was at Dreamhack there and the likes of TLO really do know their stuff, makes for interesting viewing.
There will always be a place for the shoutcasting kind of casting though to keep the excitement up, and for most people it really does add to the experience. I remember Khaldor casting I think it was Darkforce at some tournament, and although I speak no German the sheer passion in his voice made it even more riveting. That said he knows his shit too to my knowledge.
I don't know really, I just feel the levels of casting are on a downward curve at least to my mind. I don't feel this is necessarily related to the points that Huk brought up specifically, but I feel there is such difficulty breaking in as a new caster that those already installed are getting a bit complacent.
On November 30 2011 09:56 Jerglings wrote: Huk says casters are overpaid and treated better than players, eh?
So what about that whole life changing money we kept hearing about when he went to EG? What about how in every interview he talks about how he's babied so he can completely focus on the game? Grass is greener on the other side I guess. If you're a player, you should be focusing on how to win. Not worrying about who's casting and who isn't.
Unless this whole SC2 as an eSport is a total farce and is all about the money instead of being the best.
huk represents a select handful of pro players.
most casters that comment the game (except for a few) have lower than diamond understanding of the game. most aren't even funny and miss quite a bit of action.
I dont understand this rating casters by how much they miss action wise nonsense I see everywhere, tastosis cast from a static camera provided to them by the Korean observer and they are considered 'the best' yes Artosis catches things the observer misses sometimes but thats normal for having more than one person looking at the game. It proves even the korean observer misses things. The point is when they had control they missed things too. Every caster misses action, some just do it less often.
Compared to the players a lot of casters work like 10x less, and from what I've seen, they aren't qualified for the job, but they have huge followings and are financially better off. What Huk says is completely true.
On November 30 2011 13:18 Itsmedudeman wrote: Compared to the players a lot of casters work like 10x less, and from what I've seen, they aren't qualified for the job, but they have huge followings and are financially better off. What Huk says is completely true.
C'mon, now you're just pulling numbers out of your ass. Anyway, time spent shouldn't be the deciding factor. I could grind away on the ladder 16 hours/day, doesn't mean I deserve to be paid more than a caster bringing thousands of viewers to an event.
On November 30 2011 13:18 Itsmedudeman wrote: Compared to the players a lot of casters work like 10x less, and from what I've seen, they aren't qualified for the job, but they have huge followings and are financially better off. What Huk says is completely true.
If this is true then there is both a demand for better casters and an incentive to devote more time to becoming a better caster. If you know anything about economics then you know that this can only result in better casting.
The better the casters, the better the presentation, which is a company like MLG's product. The better the product the more money they make.
If unqualified and overpaid casters is indeed a problem now, it certainly won't be for long.
On November 30 2011 13:21 Exoteric wrote: Does anyone know how much casters actually get paid?
On November 30 2011 13:18 Itsmedudeman wrote: Compared to the players a lot of casters work like 10x less, and from what I've seen, they aren't qualified for the job, but they have huge followings and are financially better off. What Huk says is completely true.
this guy doesn't most casters aren't paid well (if at all). I have a term I call e-sports budget. It means you're fucking poor, most non players in e-sports dont get paid much if anything at all. GSL casters besides Tastosis aren't paid well. And casting just like playing is a skill it takes practice if they dont work at it then that's why most of them suck. There are exceptions but most good casters put time into it as well and don't get paid nearly as much as HuK.
Notice I said most though, this is the issue there are standouts in both areas that make more than the rest of them, this entire argument is silly and I've said my points and am honestly not going to bother anymore because this argument happens every couple months anyways.
Definitely siding with HuK here. I really enjoyed the matches that TLO and Sheth casted. They were very analytical, they knew what they were talking about, yet they remained entertaining. What more could you want in a caster? If they're happy to cast when they're no longer in a tournament I think it would be an error on the tournament's part to deny them.
Let me get this straight; HuK, the guy with an indefensibly large $187,000 (est.) contract is saying that casters make too much money? The case could be made solely for Tastosis (each rumored to be in the range of $100k this year), but even then those guys have been at FUCKING EVERYTHING this year. I'd bet money that most of the casters make less than $30k, especially ones that have to take travel expenses out of their earnings.
On another note, IdrA makes a good example for the analytical caster role. During the... EG Master's Cup I believe, whenever the caster he was with would ask him what was going on, IdrA gave about a 90% accurate view of what was happening, what the players were trying to execute and why. I loved it, and just keep waiting for someone else to show up who can give insight on games being played on anything close to that level. I seriously hope that some pros give thought to pursuing casting jobs when they end their days playing professionally.
On November 30 2011 13:56 Stark1 wrote: Let me get this straight; HuK, the guy with an indefensibly large $187,000 (est.) contract is saying that casters make too much money? The case could be made solely for Tastosis (each rumored to be in the range of $100k this year), but even then those guys have been at FUCKING EVERYTHING this year. I'd bet money that most of the casters make less than $30k, especially ones that have to take travel expenses out of their earnings.
On another note, IdrA makes a good example for the analytical caster role. During the... EG Master's Cup I believe, whenever the caster he was with would ask him what was going on, IdrA gave about a 90% accurate view of what was happening, what the players were trying to execute and why. I loved it, and just keep waiting for someone else to show up who can give insight on games being played on anything close to that level. I seriously hope that some pros give thought to pursuing casting jobs when they end their days playing professionally.
The thing is casters who are not players miss things they don't even know they should have been looking for. Casters need to at a minimum hit masters on NA. That's definitely not a tall order if casting is your job.
On November 30 2011 13:56 Stark1 wrote: Let me get this straight; HuK, the guy with an indefensibly large $187,000 (est.) contract is saying that casters make too much money? The case could be made solely for Tastosis (each rumored to be in the range of $100k this year), but even then those guys have been at FUCKING EVERYTHING this year. I'd bet money that most of the casters make less than $30k, especially ones that have to take travel expenses out of their earnings.
On another note, IdrA makes a good example for the analytical caster role. During the... EG Master's Cup I believe, whenever the caster he was with would ask him what was going on, IdrA gave about a 90% accurate view of what was happening, what the players were trying to execute and why. I loved it, and just keep waiting for someone else to show up who can give insight on games being played on anything close to that level. I seriously hope that some pros give thought to pursuing casting jobs when they end their days playing professionally.
Except Incontrol, he's already tried it and proved to be a subpar, immensely trollable drama queen (see NASL).
where do you get these numbers? no source
HuK went around blabbering about his contract soon after signing it, so that one's public knowledge. As for Tastosis, it's just a rough estimation from looking at the events they went to and trying to guess how much they would pay. I could be way off on that one, but I doubt it. I'd actually like to get in touch with some team staff, I've been itching to write an article on player pay. Maybe someone reading this can help me get started!
I think it's worth pointing out that a lot of mainstream sports casters are former players. NFL gameday is all former pros, only sometimes there are journalists that never were successful players. Same for the NBA etc. They usually just know a lot more about the game. I'm not sure if i misunderstood what slasher said, but i think that players turning into casters is a smart business move for the player, and is also great for the community.
About the all rant around casters and players, I feel like all this comes from players that have huge frustrations because tournament schedule is hard on them, the stress is hard to deal with and their results are not on par with what they want to or whatever, because you know competition is tough, then they will turn all their frustrations on casters, which is perfectly normal, but that's not the real problem obviously. Having strong charisma's casters is not a problem for players, there is enough light for everyone (and enough money).
On November 30 2011 13:42 Vei wrote: reading twitterspeak is mind boggling
what is that site doing to our language...
Um. It's a great tool. It facilitates free and easy communication with anybody and potentially everybody. It can be used to organize rapid emergency donation requests after disaster. It can be used to overcome government (re: Iran) imposed censorship over media outlets in order to spread information. By Twitterspeak I assume you refer to everyone's lines ending abruptly. The "@" thing isn't a feature of language, it's a feature of tagging that allows you to link/notify others.
Anyway, its limitations mean it's really not meant for debating over serious or personal issues (hint, they limit you to 140 characters because it's not meant to be email). In fact, this nonsense demonstrates that using Twitter for this type of in-depth, back & forth conversation is mind-numbingly dumb. It's funny because at the beginning the guy even realizes he probably shouldn't be using Twitter for such a discussion. tl;dr Twitter's great, language is fine, conducting serious discussions via Twitter is ridiculous
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
you're wrong...
Give the numbers man, come on.
We all know you have the sickest ride from some commercial with Kingston, so I suppose you're the king in this contest.
I'm joking by the way, in my country talking about salaries is a taboo.
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
you're wrong...
Would you be willing to give an insider perspective/estimate on what people are making?
I'm not joking, talking about pro athletes' salaries in my country is commonplace.
I think the big point is being missed here. The reason casters are paid and praised more than the players is because the game this whole business is built around is, for the most part, boring to watch. The majority of a spectator's entertainment value in pro-level SC2 is coming from the caster's comments and interpretations of the action and not the actual on-screen action itself.
If you're a fan of a traditional sport, like baseball or hockey or football, try watching it with the sound muted. It will be 95% as entertaining as it is with the sound on. Hell, do you even know or give two shits about who is casting that basketball game? Now try watching SC2 with the sound muted....
There are periods where many minutes pass by with absolutely NO ACTION. If it wasn't for the SC2 casters imitating comedians we'd simply be watching something else. What other sport is like this? How often in a traditional broadcast sport is NOTHING happening and you're simply relying on the commentator to not be bored?
Further, when you are watching the "sport" of SC2, what are you seeing? The same little cartoon graphic characters over and over and over. You don't SEE Huk, you don't SEE MC, you don't SEE Puzzle. In-game they all look the same. But after the game... you always SEE Tastosis. You don't need an education in psychology to understand why the spectators are praising the people they regularly SEE more than the people they DON'T. This is entertainment and it's about selling eyeballs to advertisers. The casters have bigger fan bases than the players and so they get more money. Period. Until we see eSports that are either: 1. Action-packed beginning-to-end and don't require amateur comedians to pass the down-time, or 2. the players themselves are actually represented graphically within the game or constantly on-screen during the game, this will never change. If you're in the SC2 business solely to make the most money for the least time invested, become a caster.
eSports is in its infancy. I love, love, LOVE eSports and hope to see it grow, but I'm also objective enough to realize that this particular game (and its platform) is simply not designed nearly well enough to satisfy the fundamental requirements of a true SPORT. I don't know of a single video game that is. Luckily I'm not a Blizzard/Starcraft fanboy and when that game is finally made I'll be the first fan they've got.
For sure it requires a lot of hard work, but it's also a very rewarding job where you get to have fun while doing it ! I have a friend who works 12 hour days at a factory doing the same monotomous task 1000's of times per day, now that's tough. Relative to most other jobs, you gotta admit casting is pretty sweet ! Not to say that you didn't earn it though, just bear in mind 99% of people posting have a lot worse jobs than you.
And? Yeah, I have a great job and I wouldn't trade it for the world but let's not make the assumption that casting is in any way easy. I've paid my dues in shit jobs for minimum wage for a long time, just like everyone else, while doing the 10 years of amateur radio/podcasting/hobbyist stuff required to make it my full-time career path, as no doubt have most casters in one form or another. 14 hours a day of talking is not easy for anyone.
And yes, player casters are much more interesting. Casters like TB have no future.
You're getting this the wrong way around. As players start retiring and moving into casting, the only ones with a future will be those with the training and skills in broadcast that those players lack. Nobody is going to care about up and coming analysts when they have retired pros to discuss strategy. Simple logic. The existing generation of analytical casters will continue to survive because they have established themselves but the next generation of analysts will all be retired pros who will need play-by-play casters as partners. Unless of course we're going to bunk the last 50 years of broadcast sport which so far we haven't and have seen no reason to either. And do me a favour and don't bother calling me defensive due to my livelihood or whatever, I'm pretty much the only professional caster at the moment who could never get a single gig or replay again and not actually notice the impact on my bank account (not bragging, simple fact that Starcraft is such a non-factor compared to what I do on a regular basis).
On November 30 2011 13:56 Stark1 wrote: Let me get this straight; HuK, the guy with an indefensibly large $187,000 (est.) contract is saying that casters make too much money? The case could be made solely for Tastosis (each rumored to be in the range of $100k this year), but even then those guys have been at FUCKING EVERYTHING this year. I'd bet money that most of the casters make less than $30k, especially ones that have to take travel expenses out of their earnings.
On another note, IdrA makes a good example for the analytical caster role. During the... EG Master's Cup I believe, whenever the caster he was with would ask him what was going on, IdrA gave about a 90% accurate view of what was happening, what the players were trying to execute and why. I loved it, and just keep waiting for someone else to show up who can give insight on games being played on anything close to that level. I seriously hope that some pros give thought to pursuing casting jobs when they end their days playing professionally.
On November 30 2011 19:53 sunman1g wrote: you gotta be pretty stupid to think huk makes $187,000 a year i'm sorry, there is really no other way to put it.
To be honest, any speculation outside of those who actually know how much players and casters make (a select few) is pointless, particularly when most of us are obliged either contractually or simply because we've been entrusted, not to tell you.
It's kinda hard, cause casters get paid every tournament, prolly less then the winner of the tournament but logically more then the players who don't get top8 or something, cause most of the time those players dont get paid at all. However these casters dont have sponsors who support them.
Actually I think it's pretty fair the way it goes currently, of course players make the game, but there are so many of them, good casters are there less and they play a big part in making esports entertaining so they need to get rewarded for that.
Considering that so many people seem to think the caster is more important to enjoying the game than the game itself, it doesn't surprise me the least if casters get paid more generally. Just read any lr thread where you have a caster that people believe is sub par, no matter how good the games are there are people that turn off the stream and spend more time critising the caster than enjoying the games being played. Some explicity say they can't enjoy a game with a caster like TB, Kelly or whoever. When the game becomes more important than the casters for enjoyment we might be going places.
On November 30 2011 13:56 Stark1 wrote: Let me get this straight; HuK, the guy with an indefensibly large $187,000 (est.) contract is saying that casters make too much money? The case could be made solely for Tastosis (each rumored to be in the range of $100k this year), but even then those guys have been at FUCKING EVERYTHING this year. I'd bet money that most of the casters make less than $30k, especially ones that have to take travel expenses out of their earnings.
On another note, IdrA makes a good example for the analytical caster role. During the... EG Master's Cup I believe, whenever the caster he was with would ask him what was going on, IdrA gave about a 90% accurate view of what was happening, what the players were trying to execute and why. I loved it, and just keep waiting for someone else to show up who can give insight on games being played on anything close to that level. I seriously hope that some pros give thought to pursuing casting jobs when they end their days playing professionally.
I find nothing at all unusual or untoward about PRO's moving to casting. It happens in ALL sports (well, here in the UK anyway). That is not to say you need to be able to play the game at PRO level to have deep insight and add value to the game's community / momentum.
In my opinon players should be the most important stock. Without the players there would be no tournament, no casters, no teams. Do all tournaments treat the players as their number 1 priority?
As a business, as sad as it is, the point of who's more important arguably comes down to stock value and drawing power. The more established casters are on demand just as much as well know players that get invited. If a caster can entertain and draw more numbers than players playing, then they're worth more, regardless whether you think it's right or wrong.
The value of a player being a caster is high automatically, because of the knowledge they already have. However retired players becoming analytical casters, they will still have to continue playing the game, they can't retire completely. They may have the more established foot in the door,but they have to keep up to date with the meta-game, stategies, play styles. Otherwise it'll always be the current players that provide the most up to date/informative analysis, which is what people want.
I do believe play by play casting, being an entertaining host, and the ability to articulate well in front of a camera is still important part of the business model. If an ex pro can fulfil that role, good on them. At the end of the day, it's the viewers that make the decision in what they like and do not like, and yet you can't please everyone. :/
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
you're wrong...
Would you be willing to give an insider perspective/estimate on what people are making?
I'm not joking, talking about pro athletes' salaries in my country is commonplace.
Just based on video view counts alone, I can tell you Husky is making between 75 and 150k a year right now off youtube ALONE, and that's not including the money he has made from tourneys.
Artosis and Tastless are different, however, because they get no adsense money, but the big youtube personalities are making bank.
Feel free to use the picture I compiled -- I added some additional tweets from Apollo that I replied to.
Regarding the picture below, there are a few unknowns to the TL community I'd like to point out: -k1mjee is myself -JuneauLee (Josh Lee) was a top CoD4 shoutcaster, many know him for his opening line in this fragmovie: CLICK HERE -PaulChaloner (Paul Chaloner) is looked at as the "Yen Sid" of CoD casting, somewhat of a "father" to the current casters -(ConsiderIt_DunN)Corey Dunn does Black Ops casting for MLG
WARNING: 5000px in height, brace yourself (start at the bottom and read up). + Show Spoiler +
Until players start doing more for the community, then they're not going to be the face of the game. Back to what SotG said about players being incapable of handling the media spotlight. Plus, players largely aren't the ones who're making these tournaments possible. Casters, largely, seem to be creating the base for eSports to grow...and players are just playing. Look at Day9, and what he's done compared to pro players. There's a big disparity there, and there's probably a huge disparity in salaries too, despite the fact that Day9 probably does more overall.
As for pro-players becoming casters...I'm fine with that, so long as they work on it and aren't really dry to listen to like most of the ones I've heard so far :/
It would be interesting to know how much money the whole casting crew (8-10 casters) charge for a normal MLG event, considering that the players are fighting for a 14k prize pool.
On November 30 2011 22:16 Rohan wrote: Back to what SotG said about players being incapable of handling the media spotlight.
What media spotlight? Where are players, even ones NOT socially awkward like Naniwa, supposed to get spotlighted?
Let's look the some of the most popular players
IdrA -> SOTG + Inside the game + EG promotion + Self promotion
White-Ra -> Streaming, interviews, documentaries, "uniqueness in dialogue"
Sen -> hero zerg of Taiwan, one of the only top players outside of KR/EU, streams
Incontrol -> SOTG + ITG + Self promotion
Destiny -> Streams all day, he himself knows he will never be a top player until he stops streaming all the time and getting sniped by Deezer
Huk / Sheth / Tyler / etc - > All gained popularity due to Team Liquid promotion, which is inevitable due to TL holding a monopoly on Starcraft 2 information and tourney coverage
NesTea, MVP, Boxer, Nada, MC, etc -> All have at one point or another "stood out" in their careers, gaining an influx of fans and supporters.
Where are other players supposed to get spotlight? You see a player like Nerchio once a week or so playing in some small tourney, and once a month in a major tourney, where he will make it to say the Semifinals, then lose, maybe get a 60 second interview, then never been seen again.
If SOTG with their 10-20k viewers had a different guest on each week, like Thorzain, Stephano, Major, Grubby, Kas, etc it would do more for their fandom than winning a medium sized tourney =/
Slasher is right. The best casters are not players. Players are not the best casters.
Tasteless and Artosis are not good players in SC2, neither is Apollo or Rotterdam. DJWheat, the best esports caster in the world, is no longer a Quake player. The list goes on and on.
The more esports grows, the bigger the separation between casters and players will become. And that's fine. You do not need to actually play the game at a high level to be a good caster. You do need to analyze it at a high level though!!
On November 30 2011 22:16 Rohan wrote: Back to what SotG said about players being incapable of handling the media spotlight.
What media spotlight? Where are players, even ones NOT socially awkward like Naniwa, supposed to get spotlighted?
Let's look the some of the most popular players
IdrA -> SOTG + Inside the game + EG promotion + Self promotion
White-Ra -> Streaming, interviews, documentaries, "uniqueness in dialogue"
Sen -> hero zerg of Taiwan, one of the only top players outside of KR/EU, streams
Incontrol -> SOTG + ITG + Self promotion
Destiny -> Streams all day, he himself knows he will never be a top player until he stops streaming all the time and getting sniped by Deezer
Huk / Sheth / Tyler / etc - > All gained popularity due to Team Liquid promotion, which is inevitable due to TL holding a monopoly on Starcraft 2 information and tourney coverage
NesTea, MVP, Boxer, Nada, MC, etc -> All have at one point or another "stood out" in their careers, gaining an influx of fans and supporters.
Where are other players supposed to get spotlight? You see a player like Nerchio once a week or so playing in some small tourney, and once a month in a major tourney, where he will make it to say the Semifinals, then lose, maybe get a 60 second interview, then never been seen again.
If SOTG with their 10-20k viewers had a different guest on each week, like Thorzain, Stephano, Major, Grubby, Kas, etc it would do more for their fandom than winning a medium sized tourney =/
On November 30 2011 22:16 Rohan wrote: Back to what SotG said about players being incapable of handling the media spotlight.
What media spotlight? Where are players, even ones NOT socially awkward like Naniwa, supposed to get spotlighted?
Let's look the some of the most popular players
IdrA -> SOTG + Inside the game + EG promotion + Self promotion
White-Ra -> Streaming, interviews, documentaries, "uniqueness in dialogue"
Sen -> hero zerg of Taiwan, one of the only top players outside of KR/EU, streams
Incontrol -> SOTG + ITG + Self promotion
Destiny -> Streams all day, he himself knows he will never be a top player until he stops streaming all the time and getting sniped by Deezer
Huk / Sheth / Tyler / etc - > All gained popularity due to Team Liquid promotion, which is inevitable due to TL holding a monopoly on Starcraft 2 information and tourney coverage
NesTea, MVP, Boxer, Nada, MC, etc -> All have at one point or another "stood out" in their careers, gaining an influx of fans and supporters.
Where are other players supposed to get spotlight? You see a player like Nerchio once a week or so playing in some small tourney, and once a month in a major tourney, where he will make it to say the Semifinals, then lose, maybe get a 60 second interview, then never been seen again.
If SOTG with their 10-20k viewers had a different guest on each week, like Thorzain, Stephano, Major, Grubby, Kas, etc it would do more for their fandom than winning a medium sized tourney =/
I think by spotlight he just meant the (often painful to watch) interviews that happen during just about every major tournament.
On November 30 2011 22:35 Jinsho wrote: Tasteless and Artosis are not good players in SC2, neither is Apollo or Rotterdam. DJWheat, the best esports caster in the world, is no longer a Quake player. The list goes on and on.
The more esports grows, the bigger the separation between casters and players will become. And that's fine. You do not need to actually play the game at a high level to be a good caster. You do need to analyze it at a high level though!!
I want to interrupt you in the bolded part. Day9 has had every race in the GM league. Rotterdam is something like top 30 eu masters league (cross-divisions), as close to gm as you can be (and will kick ass at homestory cup :D). MrBitter is relatively high masters, too. Tasteless began his casting career during a tourney where he already was eliminated. DjWheat still kicks ass in various games, not world top notch, but still great. You know why the Artosis Pylon is called Artosis pylon? He also played various tournaments at the beginning of SC2, not only SC1.
It shouldnt be standard that players are casting, but I think it is awesome if they do it occasionally. Dont you think analysing your own moves on stream is fun for the watchers?
On November 30 2011 22:35 Jinsho wrote: Tasteless and Artosis are not good players in SC2, neither is Apollo or Rotterdam. DJWheat, the best esports caster in the world, is no longer a Quake player. The list goes on and on.
The more esports grows, the bigger the separation between casters and players will become. And that's fine. You do not need to actually play the game at a high level to be a good caster. You do need to analyze it at a high level though!!
I want to interrupt you in the bolded part. Day9 has had every race in the GM league. Rotterdam is something like top 30 eu masters league (cross-divisions), as close to gm as you can be (and will kick ass at homestory cup :D). MrBitter is relatively high masters, too. Tasteless began his casting career during a tourney where he already was eliminated. DjWheat still kicks ass in various games, not world top notch, but still great. You know why the Artosis Pylon is called Artosis pylon? He also played various tournaments at the beginning of SC2, not only SC1.
It shouldnt be standard that players are casting, but I think it is awesome if they do it occasionally. Dont you think analysing your own moves on stream is fun for the watchers?
when Tasteless began casting that tourney the situation was that 2 CS casters were covering the starcraft games. Considering that it's really not surprising that the organisers were willing to switch to someone completly new who was willing to do it for free on the fly.
Concering Day9 that rumour seems to be persistent, but so far i have only seen his Day9 account as Zerg GM in May or something. And yes most of the caster you have listed are at least Masters players, even Artosis who failed badly in NASL was high Master in Korea at that point (frankly i'd be willing to bet that even Tasteless is Master in Korea). DjWheat is a great caster, but he would be the first to admit that he isn't anywhere close to being a good player, watch weapon of choice once in a while
Considering the players casting it is awesome if the players speak well. If they cannot get their thoughts across it is usually painfull or hilarious (MC was hilarious, Nightend was painfull at HSC).
On November 30 2011 22:35 Jinsho wrote: Tasteless and Artosis are not good players in SC2, neither is Apollo or Rotterdam. DJWheat, the best esports caster in the world, is no longer a Quake player. The list goes on and on.
The more esports grows, the bigger the separation between casters and players will become. And that's fine. You do not need to actually play the game at a high level to be a good caster. You do need to analyze it at a high level though!!
I want to interrupt you in the bolded part. Day9 has had every race in the GM league. Rotterdam is something like top 30 eu masters league (cross-divisions), as close to gm as you can be (and will kick ass at homestory cup :D). MrBitter is relatively high masters, too. Tasteless began his casting career during a tourney where he already was eliminated. DjWheat still kicks ass in various games, not world top notch, but still great. You know why the Artosis Pylon is called Artosis pylon? He also played various tournaments at the beginning of SC2, not only SC1.
It shouldnt be standard that players are casting, but I think it is awesome if they do it occasionally. Dont you think analysing your own moves on stream is fun for the watchers?
when Tasteless began casting that tourney the situation was that 2 CS casters were covering the starcraft games. Considering that it's really not surprising that the organisers were willing to switch to someone completly new who was willing to do it for free on the fly.
Concering Day9 that rumour seems to be persistent, but so far i have only seen his Day9 account as Zerg GM in May or something. And yes most of the caster you have listed are at least Masters players, even Artosis who failed badly in NASL was high Master in Korea at that point (frankly i'd be willing to bet that even Tasteless is Master in Korea). DjWheat is a great caster, but he would be the first to admit that he isn't anywhere close to being a good player, watch weapon of choice once in a while
Considering the players casting it is awesome if the players speak well. If they cannot get their thoughts across it is usually painfull or hilarious (MC was hilarious, Nightend was painfull at HSC).
And the situation at Dreamhack was that Tasteless had to go to hospital and could not cast and Apollo/TB were exhausted and signed autographs, took photos etc. I agree with you that it depends on the person who casts, but cant we say the same about the normal casters, too? A lot of people think people like TB or gretorp shouldnt cast because they "suck", just like nightend did in HSC. But it can be awesome and I am looking forward to the next HSC for that reason!
On November 30 2011 22:35 Jinsho wrote: Slasher is right. The best casters are not players. Players are not the best casters.
Tasteless and Artosis are not good players in SC2, neither is Apollo or Rotterdam. DJWheat, the best esports caster in the world, is no longer a Quake player. The list goes on and on.
The more esports grows, the bigger the separation between casters and players will become. And that's fine. You do not need to actually play the game at a high level to be a good caster. You do need to analyze it at a high level though!!
I disagree. You learn a lot more in the game when players are casting than someone that acts more as a hype-caster, and thus you learn more the more involved in the game you really are and the more fun and intensive it becomes. One of the best casters I've seen has been on the HOM3 when players casted and took turns and rotated. Also at DH with Sheth and TLO as commentators was super fun!
Some of the opinions expressed seem knee jerk and short sited.
To me here is what all of this really comes down to.
A player focuses on playing their race well, that's their 'job' so to speak in our world. No more then a NFL, NBA, or MLB player focuses on honing their skills each and every week. Working out the meta game for their race, trying new builds, repeatedly pounding out games to keep themselves in top playing condition.
A casters job is to understand what is going on, and be able to communicate it in an entertaining / logical way to keep the audience up to date with the game they are watching. Watching game footage/replays to analyze all the match ups, working on their stage presence, learning how to fill time and work with production.
Much like any regular old sport, each has to focus 100% on their craft to truly be a top professional. So as eSports grows if you want to be the best player, you should be spending 100% of your timing focusing on just that. If you want to be a top commentator you should be focusing 100% of your time on doing that. If your goal is to flounder in between as the game progresses I don't see anyone being capable of doing both to a professional level. Any more then a NFL, NBA, or MLB player would be splitting time between practicing with their team and doing commentary of other teams games.
I think the above is the point slasher was trying to convey, that for eSports to truly be professional regardless of what your background is you have to work at your one aspect to truly be great at it. Also to assume that great analysts can only be ex players seems like a poor point....especially when you consider some of the best sports commentators were never very good players or were ever a player at all. Being a good analyst is all about being able to understand what your watching and dissect it and give that back to the audience. Being able to be a SC2 pro is no more a requirement for good analysis then being able to throw a touch down, slam dunk a ball, or hit a home run.
Now is the above to say a player can't successfully make the transition to casting, of course not. Tasteless, Artosis, Day[9] all have done so to name a few. Is that to say someone like a DJWheat or JoeCaster can't be just as good if not better assuming they really work at understanding the game and focusing 100% of their efforts on casting, I would say no.
The last Tournament Artosis was in was NASL 1... which was less than a year ago. Fuck Slasher... xDDD
Casters should almost ALWAYS be players of the game with at LEAST lower end Pro-level mechanics and middling Pro-level game knowledge... That's how it's been in Korea for ages and there's a REASON why that works... because it creates significantly more enjoyable cast when casters understand the game's flow and make accurate (if over the top) readings...
It's just not aesthetically pleasing to hear a caster talking about a single bit of skirmish or harassment while completely ignoring the purpose of said skirmish/harassment while ALSO not noticing major tech changes AND other parts of the map that are actually where the real action is going on... NOBODY likes hearing a caster say "Oh, and uhh we JUST missed 35 drones dying at three different expansions... and a nuke..." Or when a Caster says something like "THIS BATTLE IS PIVOTAL THIS IS WHAT WILL DECIDE TH-oh... nevermind. I guess not."
Game knowledge and map awareness and the mechanics that come along with the aforementioned are a BIG part of the Professionalism that Slasher says must increase... though he doesn't really acknowledge that as such exists.
I don't hate Slasher... he's the funfun hypebot of the SC2 world atm... but the only reason he's particularly useful is that the newbs hear what his conversational adversaries say and learn the truth in a slightly more interesting way than a blatant Teamliquid Thread about "The Truth"...
Fact is casters are there to entertain people, and have knowledge of the game, which in some cases is more deep in others not...
but if pros cast, this is the best casting you can get, the insight an knowledge they put into the cast is 100000 times better than any other person can have.
and sorry to be mean slasher, but even if day9, artosis, tasteless,apollo dont play the next 100 years, the even would have far better knowledge of the game than you have.
Going to be lots and lots of different views in this thread.
What makes a good casters; Why they are justified as good; Background of the casters; Knowledge; Voice; Experience;
Lots and lots of things to be mentioned. However the one key thing is, they can't be players, its just impossible to do both with the commitment of either (being a player or a caster)
What i would like to see though, is less casters than what we have. I think Slasher hit my favorite ones on the head in what he said (Tastosis/Day/Apollo/Rottie) i would say theres room for 1 or 2 more (Wheat/TB/Bitter) but no more than that.
If you look at E-Sports commentating the same way you would as any other sport you will notice they always have the analyzer and the ex pro (which has a good voice) you have to go down this road in all the events if your going to be making one. Who shall i get, how many will i need (1 stream or 2 streams etc) and then whos going to be doing the main stage etcetc. But what it boils down to is what the public wants.
Lets take Andy Gray and Martin Tyler as the prime example, those two where the voice of the Premier League on sky sports for YEARS, as long as the Premier League started i beleive (1990) they complimented eachother beautifully, Martin bringing up random facts about the clubs history and management, and the odd player facts. Whilst Andy used to talk in depth about a move or about how a play is devolping really well. It was ear gripping stuff, was the best football commentators in the game. (Until Andy decided to unbotton his jeans on TV to a slutty blonde girl and abuse a womens linesman cuz women and football = NO)
So with that being said you need a Tastosis with Artosis complimenting the game styles and describing moves, and Tasteless to be talking you threw the action move by move and making funny comments when the game is pretty boring and dull. Same with Day9 he can do both really well, keeps people gripped with his comedy side of his casting, but always strives for being an Artosis of knowledge on the game when he is casting. TB and Apollo compliment them eachother well aswell. TB being the voice and the funny side with the way he portrays the game with his sounds whilst Apollo is breaking the play down bit by bit (not prime t.t)
On the note of them being paid more than the players i just cant beleive, if that is so WOW lol crazy system that is!!
Everyone keeps talking about we need a players union for this and a E-Sports governing body for that...Well all these big names keep coming out and saying this. Well why not get off your ass' and sort it out yourself!!
For example, what is stopping Slasher going to SirScoots and getting the ball rolling with Players union getting team managers the word to send captains to a meeting @ an MLG or a DH where most of the players might be anyway, sitting down and drawing up plans for a players union. Its not just going to happen over night?! It needs to be taken by the horns and made.
As for the E-Sports union that is alot harder to set up, because E-Sports isn't just SC2 its. CoD/FIFA/CS:S/DOTA/HON/SSF/TEKKEN/DOA/LOL/WOW/PGR (probably alot more i missed off but you get my point) This can't be done over night would take a huge meeting from a laeder of each individual sport etc, possible but alot of hard work.
Slashers bashing on players/casters and indirectly DH, while praising MLG.....surprise? People should really stop giving this guy the attention that he is currently receiving... -_ -
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
you're wrong...
Would you be willing to give an insider perspective/estimate on what people are making?
I'm not joking, talking about pro athletes' salaries in my country is commonplace.
Casters are making a ridiculous amount more. It's not even fucking close compared to a middle ground pro.
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb...
Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters?
Common sense tells me that the players are the stars, the players should be earning the big bucks.
Casters should make money too.
Day9 and Tastosis are special cases, they are community heroes and devoted so much that they are not just casters anymore. They are community celebrities and the money they make is not only because of their casting, it's because of their existence.
It's like comparing a regular commentator in a sport with a special invite celebrity ex competitive-player to cast with you.
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb...
Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters?
I wouldn't disagree with the statement that in general casters do get paid more. I think that in part though as to do with teams and funding and not really the organizations. IE you can't really fault MLG, IPL, GSL...if the middle of the road player is not making very much money, though you can make a comment about prize pools.
Using just regular professional sports as an example the NFL/NBA/NHL/MLB as an organization that sanctions the 'leagues' doesn't directly pay the players. The teams may have revenue sharing from the TV broadcasts (maybe we can have that down the road), but otherwise ticket/merch/sponsors supply the income the team needs to pay the players.
I think part of the reason you see players in many instances getting paid less then casters is a result of the way eSports has grown. While a lot of the leagues MLG, GSL, or IPL have made huge strides to have their shit together and to make sure their staff is paid as well as possible. Many of the teams are not nearly as organized or as well funded as a team like EG for instance.
I think so long as eSports continues to grow and sponsors are willing to fund teams this over time will improve for players. To some extent thanks to the organizations who run the leagues things are already starting to get better. Especially if you compare the scene now to the scene something like 5 or 10 years ago where many of times you were lucky to get paid at all.
Thing is, there are only a few high end casters (Day[9], Bitter, Rotterdam, Tasteless, Artosis). These are the guys every event wants there. Because there are so few really well known personalities (which will attract crowds - it's no coincidence IMO that NASL S2 is attracting few viewer figures and have few high-end casters), tournament organisers are willing to pay them A LOT to come and cast for them. One of the disadvantages of being so in-demand is that you get overworked (like at Dreamhack) because there aren't so many "decent-but-not-great" casters in the eyes of the community.
But this exponential interest in the "best in the business" is not unique to commentators - it works for the players too. The only way for a player not of a really high calibre and has not already broken through to gain money/publicity/sponsors etc is by becoming popular in the community, by being a personality. Destiny, to put it bluntly, is not a great player. Sure, he's good, but I don't seem him making a breakthrough into MLG and making it anywhere near Top 10. The reason he's well-known is because he put an effort into being well-known and is a "personality". Would oGsHerO ever have become as well-known as Liquid'HerO has? He only managed to attend events outside of Korea because he joined TL, a foreign team. Apart from that, he's only made his way in to Code A twice and has made a deep run in that. Who knows how gosu and awesome many other Koreans, or even foreigners, could prove themselves to be given the opportunity? SC2 has it's own celebrity culture, not just with casters but with players too. There is a huge gulf between the best casters and players and the middling casters and players, unless the individual can make something happen with his personality rather than his good play or good analytical skills.
Kennigit wrote on reddit about how the top casters are kind of like an old boys club (albeit on another topic). They certainly look like they know each other, but I don't think that is the issue. The issue is how the community sees the casters - the likes of Day[9] are seen as light-years ahead of HDStarcraft, and they get paid accordingly (I would imagine, I don't really know HDStarcraft's paycheck, but I doubt it's anywhere near Day[9]'s for tournaments).
The fact that casters get paid comparatively more than players is only a symptom of the community's general celebrity culture, where it is hard to break through and make a name for yourself but once you have you are in the eyes of the public for a long time, even if you do nothing of particular note, and are given more opportunities to become even MORE popular/well-known.
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb...
Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters?
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
you're wrong...
Would you be willing to give an insider perspective/estimate on what people are making?
I'm not joking, talking about pro athletes' salaries in my country is commonplace.
Casters are making a ridiculous amount more. It's not even fucking close compared to a middle ground pro.
Was just thinking about this post for awhile. I believe that it could be argued that there is a higher level of competition for the top casting job than there is for tournament prize money. It may be appropriate to have this reflected in salaries. I might just be playing devil's advocate here.
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb...
Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters?
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb...
Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters?
20k ...USD?
How are you suprised at this figure? Day9 is providing his own stream to the event, he's making bank.
Casters are overpaid and get more attention than they deserve, often pulling attention away from the players. Since the community is constantly exposed to the casters *verbally*, it gives casters opportunities to promote themselves that players seldom do. Let's face it . . . . we all hear casters talk, and inevitably talk about themselves, far more than we hear players. Interviews are brief. Tournaments usually aren't.
This is something fundamentally wrong with the scene as it should be players who are drawing their fans to high profile tournaments, not casters.
The best SC2 casts I've ever heard in my life came from people who are very good at this game (various pros, Day9 who's GM with all races, Artosis masters in Korea)
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb...
Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters?
So DH Winter "gave" the casters more than all the players together? That cannot be true. O.o (not literally giving considering day9 got his money from the consent to host his own stream)
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb...
Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters?
So DH Winter "gave" the casters more than all the players together? That cannot be true. O.o (not literally giving considering day9 got his money from the consent to host his own stream)
I didn't use the word "gave" so I am not sure what you are implying here.. I don't disagree that casters work hard and are obviously a huge part of the tourney.. one of the biggest for sure. That said, the overall argument being had here is that players are under valued and casters themselves seem to agree with this so I don't think I need to issue a whole lot of defense here.
The event's quality is so heavily upon the on-air talent that they deserve to make more than most players. There's no one outside of maybe Huk and Idra that will get more eyes on content that Tastosis or Day9.
Good games, etc. etc all that stuff is secondary. Eyeballs on the content is what matters to everyone, obviously. And if you're not a star then seriously, you don't matter monetarily.
Thorzain can be replaced by Naniwa can be replaced by Ret, all the same stuff. When you start having a unique value to your name you can expect the big bucks. (like Idra and Huk)
I think Huk said it best when he said that players are generally worse at leveraging their worth. I'm inclined to trust him on this point, as Huk was able to entertain offers from multiple teams and end up with the highest SC2 salary in the world.
I'm beginning to feel more and more that there needs to be some kind of players organization that helps players get more respect from the scene, both financially and in how tournaments are run.
So what exactly is the aim here? Do we want tournaments to pay casters less and devote more money to the prize pool? Do we want players to start getting paid more?
It seems to me that it's up to teams to market the players and given them the attention that they deserve. Casters on the other hand, market themselves, and are doing a fantastic job of it.
Its down to the players/teams to really start leveraging their worth. I think they're either not willing to not able to do it correctly.
And it's also up to the players/teams to start understanding what makes them marketable. Ceremonies, outside content, being personable are all things that are going to get them paid more. At the purest form winning 3 GSLs is going to get you a big name. If you're not able to do that then you should be willing to do other things, or deal with being worth less.
On December 01 2011 05:09 SimDawg wrote: The event's quality is so heavily upon the on-air talent that they deserve to make more than most players. There's no one outside of maybe Huk and Idra that will get more eyes on content that Tastosis or Day9.
Good games, etc. etc all that stuff is secondary. Eyeballs on the content is what matters to everyone, obviously. And if you're not a star then seriously, you don't matter monetarily.
Thorzain can be replaced by Naniwa can be replaced by Ret, all the same stuff. When you start having a unique value to your name you can expect the big bucks. (like Idra and Huk)
Emphasis mine.
What you said explains why they DO make more than most players. In no way does it explain why they DESERVE to make more than most players. You just wrote down the status quo and how it works - that doesn't make it right.
How many "pro" casters are there out there? Day9, Tasteless, Artosis, TB, Apollo, MrBitter, the IPL crew (around six pepole), the new GSL pepole (around 4 pepole) and... who else, really?
Also, it makes much more sense for the casters to be paid more, we see them a lot more, they are the ones who interact with the crowd, and they are more entertaining than almost every other player out there.
The reason that Idra and Huk get payed a lot isn't (just) because they are very good players, but because they are big characters, they draw pepole, Idra's stream can get more viewers than almost every tournemant, and every time Idra joins a tournemant, you can add 5% more viewers for every game that he wins.
The casters, and the big stars, get more money for the sponsors, because pepole can relate to them, they see them as human beings first and foremost, unlike players, most of which are simply put - no-names who play the game, and who you see almost nothing else of (and when they do talk, they are shy as hell and you can't feel any sort of attachment to them).
On December 01 2011 05:09 SimDawg wrote: The event's quality is so heavily upon the on-air talent that they deserve to make more than most players. There's no one outside of maybe Huk and Idra that will get more eyes on content that Tastosis or Day9.
Good games, etc. etc all that stuff is secondary. Eyeballs on the content is what matters to everyone, obviously. And if you're not a star then seriously, you don't matter monetarily.
Thorzain can be replaced by Naniwa can be replaced by Ret, all the same stuff. When you start having a unique value to your name you can expect the big bucks. (like Idra and Huk)
Emphasis mine.
What you said explains why they DO make more than most players. In no way does it explain why they DESERVE to make more than most players. You just wrote down the status quo and how it works - that doesn't make it right.
Yes he does, he argues that the casters weight more heavily than players on the event's quality, thus making them deserving of more money.
I semi agree that players should wait to do casting 100% of their time until they've retired or realize they want a break. Players though should be able to cast and help co-cast all they want as long as their sponsors and teammates agree. It gives them more time to get their name and personality out there. It's a very good marketing technique and gives them experience for a future as well.
I somewhat agree with what Slasher said on his show. Sure, players have more knowledge about the game on a strategic and tactical level, at least for their for race (if we only focus on SC2), but i also think even analytical casters need to spend time on doing research on the players, ALL the match-ups, how to get the excitement across to the viewers and how to phrase stuff (for noobs). Players have to be able to spend as much time as possible at getting better at the game with their race (and get rewarded/paid for it).
On the other hand i really enjoyed the Homestory Cup with the player co-casters, so i've got somewhat conflicting thoughts on this subject.
What i do find kind of odd and disagree with is the how this discussion started... Slasher and guests were talking about the couch during the Dreamhack finals. This is actually the perfect place to invite a player and do post-game analyses as long as a 'couch host' ask the questions and moderates the conversation. So, i don't understand why Slasher started it there.
The funny thing about this discussion (including the tweets) is that the main point Slasher made on the show is completely lost. His main reason to seperate players and casters was that players have interests that might affect their casting. They might be holding back judgement, because one of the players is a friend (or have prejudices because it's an enemy). They might cast less genuine because the don't want to risk losing potential future oppertunities as a player (like future contracts with other teams). He emphasized the point by talking about players that cast games with their own team mates... this is a conflict of interest or at least conflicted mind. Emotion might influence their analyses. I totally agree with Slasher that this might result in unbalanced casting.
At this point in time casting will give a player a lot of exposure, which they need to up their marketability, so this is more a roadmap for the (utopian?) future when players do make millions of dollars.
On December 01 2011 05:09 SimDawg wrote: The event's quality is so heavily upon the on-air talent that they deserve to make more than most players. There's no one outside of maybe Huk and Idra that will get more eyes on content that Tastosis or Day9.
Good games, etc. etc all that stuff is secondary. Eyeballs on the content is what matters to everyone, obviously. And if you're not a star then seriously, you don't matter monetarily.
Thorzain can be replaced by Naniwa can be replaced by Ret, all the same stuff. When you start having a unique value to your name you can expect the big bucks. (like Idra and Huk)
Emphasis mine.
What you said explains why they DO make more than most players. In no way does it explain why they DESERVE to make more than most players. You just wrote down the status quo and how it works - that doesn't make it right.
Yes he does, he argues that the casters weight more heavily than players on the event's quality, thus making them deserving of more money.
You're missing the point. They are worth more to the event, but does that make them deserving of more money? Good pro players put in at least as much work as many casters, but because casters are in general worth more to the event (according to SimDawg - not my opinion), they get paid more.
I feel like stuff like this will always be a problem until there is more organization among the players and some sort of official SC2 version of KESPA. I'm afraid things are going to start get a bit ugly, especially now that a lot of foreign teams are partnered with Korean teams and will have the power to keep a lot of their top players out of tournaments if they feel the players are being underpaid. This is all seeming to come out of nowhere for spectators but all this is giving the impression that there is and has been a not-insignificant amount discontent among players because they are being paid less than casters.
On December 01 2011 05:27 Sighstorm wrote: The funny thing about this discussion (including the tweets) is that the main point Slasher made is completely lost. His main reason to seperate players and casters was that players have interests that might affect their casting. They might be holding back judgement, because one of the players is a friend... or have prejudices because i't's an enemy. They might cast less genuine because the don't want to risk losing potential future oppertunities as a player (like future contracts with other teams).
If bias was seen as a big issue for casting/commentating, Artosis would not be one of the premier casters in the world.
On December 01 2011 05:09 SimDawg wrote: The event's quality is so heavily upon the on-air talent that they deserve to make more than most players. There's no one outside of maybe Huk and Idra that will get more eyes on content that Tastosis or Day9.
Good games, etc. etc all that stuff is secondary. Eyeballs on the content is what matters to everyone, obviously. And if you're not a star then seriously, you don't matter monetarily.
Thorzain can be replaced by Naniwa can be replaced by Ret, all the same stuff. When you start having a unique value to your name you can expect the big bucks. (like Idra and Huk)
Emphasis mine.
What you said explains why they DO make more than most players. In no way does it explain why they DESERVE to make more than most players. You just wrote down the status quo and how it works - that doesn't make it right.
Yes he does, he argues that the casters weight more heavily than players on the event's quality, thus making them deserving of more money.
You're missing the point. They are worth more to the event, but does that make them deserving of more money? Good pro players put in at least as much work as many casters, but because casters are in general worth more to the event (according to SimDawg - not my opinion), they get paid more.
I sort of see what you're getting at, 12 hours of work is 12 hours of work.
That's not how the world works. The CEO makes more than the janitor. He's worth more. That's what I'm getting at.
Edit: To expound a bit more, anyone with a job in business will tell you that's the main function of your job, creating value for yourself. Through creating value for yourself you create value for your company, but by putting your company's value before your personal value you're setting yourself up for all kinds of problems. Its how you ride out the rough times, having more value than the guy in the corner office opposite yours.
On December 01 2011 05:27 Sighstorm wrote: The funny thing about this discussion (including the tweets) is that the main point Slasher made is completely lost. His main reason to seperate players and casters was that players have interests that might affect their casting. They might be holding back judgement, because one of the players is a friend... or have prejudices because i't's an enemy. They might cast less genuine because the don't want to risk losing potential future oppertunities as a player (like future contracts with other teams).
If bias was seen as a big issue for casting/commentating, Artosis would not be one of the premier casters in the world.
Maybe he should improve on this... I still don't understand why Clide lost his games and never won a GSL and why not every final was Nestea vs Clide. He never explained it. :p j/k
On December 01 2011 05:27 SeaSwift wrote: You're missing the point. They are worth more to the event, but does that make them deserving of more money?
If you buy the premise, then yes, absolutely it makes them more deserving of more money.
Why? I don't understand your thought process here. Perhaps this is a little off-topic, but I really want to know what you think.
Word logic phrases:
Premise 1) Casters (for the sake of the argument) put in about as much work as players Premise 2) Casters are more valuable to a tournament than players Conclusion: Casters deserve to make more money than players
How does that make sense to you? If I was a computer programmer and worked in Japan, where those skills are highly in demand, I would make far more money than an identical who is, for whatever reason, stranded in rural Namibia. Does that mean that I deserve to make more money because I circumstancially happen to be worth more?
I'm not saying it's practical to try and impose rules or whatever encouraging players to be paid more compared to casters, but I think your thought process is flawed.
On December 01 2011 05:09 SimDawg wrote: The event's quality is so heavily upon the on-air talent that they deserve to make more than most players. There's no one outside of maybe Huk and Idra that will get more eyes on content that Tastosis or Day9.
Good games, etc. etc all that stuff is secondary. Eyeballs on the content is what matters to everyone, obviously. And if you're not a star then seriously, you don't matter monetarily.
Thorzain can be replaced by Naniwa can be replaced by Ret, all the same stuff. When you start having a unique value to your name you can expect the big bucks. (like Idra and Huk)
Emphasis mine.
What you said explains why they DO make more than most players. In no way does it explain why they DESERVE to make more than most players. You just wrote down the status quo and how it works - that doesn't make it right.
Yes he does, he argues that the casters weight more heavily than players on the event's quality, thus making them deserving of more money.
You're missing the point. They are worth more to the event, but does that make them deserving of more money? Good pro players put in at least as much work as many casters, but because casters are in general worth more to the event (according to SimDawg - not my opinion), they get paid more.
I sort of see what you're getting at, 12 hours of work is 12 hours of work.
That's not how the world works. The CEO makes more than the janitor. He's worth more. That's what I'm getting at.
Agree entirely there, it was just your word choice I picked up on. Probably just my inner pedant.
It's one of the great tragedies of the world that inequality is a basic necessity for society to function (IMO, obviously). The inequality between the CEO and the janitor is one that cannot be avoided (perhaps minimalised, but not avoided completely). The difference between that circumstance and this one is that the inequality here can quite possibly be avoided entirely - it is not necessary for casters to be paid more than players, even if they are more valuable to the tournament.
I don't think any massive changes are required here. One change which has been called for since the start of the SC2 pro scene is to break down the prize pool better. Many tournaments currently have a very top-heavy prize pool, with the best players winning many magnitudes more than those slightly worse. Of course, the big difference in winnings is to encourage the best play possible by making it competitive, but I feel that there could be better equality while still retaining the same standard of play.
The best players probably earn roughly as much as the best casters - regardless, money doesn't look to be a problem for them from my faceless keyboard warrior perspective. It is the players who still have to "make it big" which require more support and money, and the same could probably go for commentators. The difference is that at least less well-known commentators have a simple medium by which to get publicity, while players do not have a similar way for many viewers to pick up on their play easily.
Is it because of weekend events that players are getting the short end of the stick? is it because its already too expensive to get players to events and not give them salary. It just seems crazy that EG can send like 6-8 guys to an MLG, costing thousands of dollars in plane tickets, for one event, and then send there players to dreamhack, and then to IEM, or whatever. I remember sir scoots saying that travel cost blows salary out of the water. Now for other teams, that have less sponsors, they want to just get their teams to events, paying them just isn't an option.
On December 01 2011 05:51 Zorkmid wrote: My thoughts on this are pretty simple. Everyone is paid what they're worth.
Maybe that's one of "the great tragedies of the world" lol. But be pragmatic bro.
Obviously not true. Otherwise no one would ever get higher/lower salary than they had before.
Unless you mean that your worth changes as a result of your salary changing. Wich doesn't make sense at all logically, Especially since salary is determined by your worth, (Not the other way around, since then, as i said, salary would never change. Also salry would be "random" if there is no way to determine salary except for salary wich doesn't exist yet).
Anyway, there is a moral aspect as well. Though i think that's what you were reffering too. Organizers can choose themeslves who should get what in pay. And by pressure from the community (such as this) maybe players will get what they "deserve" since their job is much harder than the casters'.
The problem with players pay isn't something that should be directly compared to that of the casters paychecks, but it is an issue with top-heavy prize pools and. unless you stream a lack of a steady income.
There are a few outliers like Huk who is apparently on a reasonably decent salary, Idra too but for many of the second tier pros for it to be a livelihood instead of a hobby they have to either stream (which impacts on their ability to practice well) or hope for an occasional deep run in a tournament with a big prize pool
While of course pro players should earn their keep with some decent tournament performances, there are a lot of pros that perform consistently well in every tournament, but whose winnings don't really reflect that
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb...
Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters?
Still trying to figure out if you're implying TB made a lot or that by comparison to day9 he made hardly anything.
Not that surprising that day9 made so much. It was using his stream and his show was advertised alongside big names such as Steelseries
It seems like Slasher sorta makes a point but he articulates himself so badly it just makes him look like an ass. May as well pay HuK to do his job cause he seems to put it better
From what I've concluded so far casters/players salaries are directly proportional to how well they relate to the american community. American casters get an edge by default just by being americans and players get it even more. It's probably because american market is way bigger and powerful and they have a strong sense of nationalism. Regarding the rest, I'm pretty sure it takes somebody with the mind and experience of a progamer to have a good analitical caster. It doesn't matter when they played their last tournament but I think at some point they had to be competitive to very high level to understand how the mechanics behind what they cast works. So far I've seen only very few casters trying to be analitical or saying stuff without knowing a shit of what they are talking about, and some of them even get paid well I believe. But in this case the first point still occurs, they might result funny to the casual american watcher so it doesn't matter.
it seems to me that the casters with the most consistent qualities are those who don't live-cast all that often. i'm sure if you guys have heard ToD and rotterdam combo, or would hear more of them, you would be raving for even more of the friendly european duo. i can only assume though that they just enjoy striding life and playing the game---casting only when they feel up to it all.
to me, it's obvious that some casters have a style that is geared towards the long-term. i can understand that everyone's passion for things dies down sometimes, but since this is their job, they need to make it work.
for some [streaming tournament] casts, i can make associations with them to those hidden music gems. they're historic or so memorable;you just feel pulled towards them and want to re-live it again. i don't feel silly for saying that, but i do want to give consistent appreciation to all the hard work casters do daily.
players know what they're in for, and out of the many people involved with sc2 they have one of the most important roles in influencing what we see on screen. if that isn't enough then they should know that they have fans no matter their result.
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made?
Pointing numbers about how much casters make is not good for anybody.
Posting real comparisons isn't a problem, the problem here is that Geoff's making up numbers to support his teammates
Normally I just try and ignore idiot forum people who actually have no idea and try to post to defame or spread lies about a community figure but in this case I will make an exception.. I was not making up numbers they are speculated by the DH staff and discussed alongside numerous players who attended and discussed this.
I hate to say it but I agree with Slasher on this...
He's right that it'll take a while for players to switch over to casting. And that as of so far casters are better casters than players are casters.
Mostly because casters are A)funny B)Charismatic C)stylish and good looking D)Cause they can make me laugh to terribly corny jokes.
Now don't get me wrong, I like players casting/analyzing. But its more of a change of pace sort of thing. The only players I could see doing casts that are amazing, are Idra and TLO.
Though I agree with HuK that players do have better analysis on certain aspects of the game, they can also be fairly ignorant to a lot of other stuff as well. Such as other matchups. For example, I wouldn't expect Idra to cast a PvT, because he always references, "oh i don't play this matchup so i don't know it that well."
I'd rather watch Day[9] cast AHGL, filled with people I've never heard of, than watch some no-name cast any of the top players. I've been sucked into SC2, passed through the addicted play-all-day-long-every-day phase, moved to watching streams all day long and watching every tournament, passed that and now I'm at the point where I selectively watch my only my favorite content based on experience. From my experience, that is content with good casters. Sorry players, you are important too, but the importance of the caster far outweighs the players when I'm choosing what to spend my time watching.
I find it interesting that Huk mentioned that Pro Players would be great analytical casters. Imagine a person who has such a great understanding of the game because they play it the best.
On December 01 2011 07:04 TheLOLas wrote: I find it interesting that Huk mentioned that Pro Players would be great analytical casters. Imagine a person who has such a great understanding of the game because they play it the best.
The problem with that, is that pro players only focus on their matchup, they're often ignorant of other matchup.
not to mention if a pro player is to switch to full time caster, their skills with atrophy, and within 3 months their so called "analytical edge" due to skill, will be gone.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Absolutely false and incorrect.
Casters get paid more because they ask for more money and by nature they are hired to do a job that does not have a "win or lose" clause in it.
Players get paid less because they will compete for less (MLG) and being sent to an event to compete is considered an honor for players whereas being sent to cast an event is considered an honor for the event.
Players arguing that some of that huge cost that goes to casters being met in the middle ground and fed more into the players is not a bad argument. Hell, Day9 has made this point, TB has made this point and I would hardly think tastosis/husky etc.. would argue against this.
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made?
Pointing numbers about how much casters make is not good for anybody.
Posting real comparisons isn't a problem, the problem here is that Geoff's making up numbers to support his teammates
Normally I just try and ignore idiot forum people who actually have no idea and try to post to defame or spread lies about a community figure but in this case I will make an exception.. I was not making up numbers they are speculated by the DH staff and discussed alongside numerous players who attended and discussed this.
Go away troll
Numerous unnamed players and staff. Care to give details about where this number comes from? does it include expenses like airfare and accommodation? Is it separate to the revenue gained through his stream ads?
Superstars of sc2 needs to calm down on their twitter accounts.
People who get paid to sit infront of their computers actually complain about others making money EASIER?? Lmfao I'm getting scared of this new era of eSports. Get me back to the time where players were thankful they actually got paid anything. Nowdays you just have to say your sponsors name and to be on a weekly show to make a good living.
Well its awesome then that we have day, tasteless, artosis, apollo, rotterdam, all have been there and now they're casting =) A good setup imo would be like three ppl, one play-by-play (TB) and then two analytical.
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made?
Pointing numbers about how much casters make is not good for anybody.
Posting real comparisons isn't a problem, the problem here is that Geoff's making up numbers to support his teammates
Normally I just try and ignore idiot forum people who actually have no idea and try to post to defame or spread lies about a community figure but in this case I will make an exception.. I was not making up numbers they are speculated by the DH staff and discussed alongside numerous players who attended and discussed this.
Go away troll
Do you know how much I made Geoff? I know I've told Greg how much I make from my regular job but not necessarily from my Starcraft (only that it's irrelevant in comparison). Just curious.
Well its awesome then that we have day, tasteless, artosis, apollo, rotterdam, all have been there and now they're casting =) A good setup imo would be like three ppl, one play-by-play (TB) and then two analytical.
Yeah it's interesting that the standard is currently 2 rather than 3 which is standard in Korea and normal sportscasting. I think maybe it's just because of the logistical issues in using a team of 3 to cast and getting them all in the same place and practicing together.
On November 30 2011 11:51 FXOpen wrote: My head just exploded.. Did huk (highest paid sc2 player from my knowledge) just say that players need to be paid more ? Casters are paid far less than him... Including Artosis and tasteless....
Brain.. explosion.
OK I am going to try and pretend this was a post made while drunk, tired or just feeling dumb...
Huk has the ability to speak for "players" that is a generalization. None of huk's examples were "I am not paid enough" or "I feel like I deserve much more money etc" he was speaking in general.. players ARE paid a helluva lot less than casters are. In general, casters are treated like THE super stars that are the most important thing while players are 2nd rate.
Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made? This kind of stuff happens every tourney.. players go and make as little as 0$ or as much as significantly less than the casters... if a player wants to say "there should be some middle ground here" he should NOT get called out by someone who some people think has clout (you).
Why the HELL would you ever want to argue against a player saying that players in general should be treated better and paid more on a level towards the casters?
I am not sure what you are arguing for here honestly.
It is inappropriate to list how much a player/caster makes here in a public forum, last I checked I don't see you listing how much you made. Not that I want to know.
There are a lot more players than there are casters, so simple supply/demand economics dictates what they get paid more. Even if the players need to be paid more, your quarrel isn't with the casters. It is with the tournament organizers.
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made?
Pointing numbers about how much casters make is not good for anybody.
Posting real comparisons isn't a problem, the problem here is that Geoff's making up numbers to support his teammates
Normally I just try and ignore idiot forum people who actually have no idea and try to post to defame or spread lies about a community figure but in this case I will make an exception.. I was not making up numbers they are speculated by the DH staff and discussed alongside numerous players who attended and discussed this.
Go away troll
Numerous unnamed players and staff. Care to give details about where this number comes from? does it include expenses like airfare and accommodation? Is it separate to the revenue gained through his stream ads?
No I don't care to give out names and I am not obligated to say any more than I did. You are new around here, or you've been banned a few times in either case you have a lot to learn about TL and posting.. you don't get to go around calling people a liar and saying they are making things up to help their team and then when they call you an idiot go "WELL THEN TELL ME ALL DETAILS"
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made?
Pointing numbers about how much casters make is not good for anybody.
Posting real comparisons isn't a problem, the problem here is that Geoff's making up numbers to support his teammates
Normally I just try and ignore idiot forum people who actually have no idea and try to post to defame or spread lies about a community figure but in this case I will make an exception.. I was not making up numbers they are speculated by the DH staff and discussed alongside numerous players who attended and discussed this.
Go away troll
Numerous unnamed players and staff. Care to give details about where this number comes from? does it include expenses like airfare and accommodation? Is it separate to the revenue gained through his stream ads?
No I don't care to give out names and I am not obligated to say any more than I did. You are new around here, or you've been banned a few times in either case you have a lot to learn about TL and posting.. you don't get to go around calling people a liar and saying they are making things up to help their team and then when they call you an idiot go "WELL THEN TELL ME ALL DETAILS"
I think the apparent success of HSC and the love from the community for the pro's casting, along with how well recieved MC's casting with TB was goes to show how much value really, really good analytical casting is. I don't see any really good players switching over to casting permanantly any time soon, but more tournaments like HomeStory Cup would be great.
Imagine if MLG decided to one-up DreamHack by not merely having casters on couches talking about the games, but also players like TLO, Idra, Huk etc? This would give them some extra exposure to the community (always good as a player), and also let the community have some really good analysis on games. Seems like a win-win situation for me, with the only drawbacks being a) getting them to spend their time doing the casting and b) making sure the games are still the focus of the cast.
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made?
Pointing numbers about how much casters make is not good for anybody.
Posting real comparisons isn't a problem, the problem here is that Geoff's making up numbers to support his teammates
Normally I just try and ignore idiot forum people who actually have no idea and try to post to defame or spread lies about a community figure but in this case I will make an exception.. I was not making up numbers they are speculated by the DH staff and discussed alongside numerous players who attended and discussed this.
Go away troll
Do you know how much I made Geoff? I know I've told Greg how much I make from my regular job but not necessarily from my Starcraft (only that it's irrelevant in comparison). Just curious.
Yeah he told me. I hope my point isn't being misconstrued.. I am not arguing you are at fault for negotiating good terms.. I am arguing that people like Huk and other player "leaders" are in their right to argue that perhaps a lot of what the casters have been negotiated for themselves should find more middle ground with the players when it comes to tourneys. What a caster makes on their stream, youtube, company salary or what not is none of our business.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this though as you are outspoken about giving back what you make to the players.
And I know we have a history together so consider this a disclaimer: My post here and earlier was in no way an attack against you (at least I didn't intend it to be) and I am not being sarcastic now.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Sorry but that's not how it works.
Do you think there are more great soccer/football players than there are casters? Yes. And the players still make much more.
I am pretty sure there are more doctors in this world then there are sc2 casters. Doctors makes more (i would think anyway lol).
Point being, there are more factors. I don't think the fact that there are more "great" casters than there are great players has much to do with it.
i think his point is that, there are fewer amazing casters within the greater pool of casters out there relative to how there are few legendary players (MC, Nestea, and so on) compared to how many progamers there are. even then it doesn't really make much sense because it is not simple at all , rofl
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Absolutely false and incorrect.
Casters get paid more because they ask for more money and by nature they are hired to do a job that does not have a "win or lose" clause in it.
Players get paid less because they will compete for less (MLG) and being sent to an event to compete is considered an honor for players whereas being sent to cast an event is considered an honor for the event.
Players arguing that some of that huge cost that goes to casters being met in the middle ground and fed more into the players is not a bad argument. Hell, Day9 has made this point, TB has made this point and I would hardly think tastosis/husky etc.. would argue against this.
Ummm...Why would you want some one else want to be paid less so you get more?? Why don't you ask for a raise for just yourself. This is not like a 3-way negotiation lol.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Players get paid less because they will compete for less (MLG) and being sent to an event to compete is considered an honor for players whereas being sent to cast an event is considered an honor for the event.
That seems directly like an effect of the above.
It's hard to objectively say but I agree there's simply less casters I'll listen to happily than players I'll watch happily. However, I think whether it is a good argument isn't as important as the validity of casters being "overpaid" and players being "underpaid."
Casters can think whatever they like, the business of the event is what is going to drive decisions. Or at least it should.
On December 01 2011 07:13 iNcontroL wrote: Yeah he told me. I hope my point isn't being misconstrued.. I am not arguing you are at fault for negotiating good terms.. I am arguing that people like Huk and other player "leaders" are in their right to argue that perhaps a lot of what the casters have been negotiated for themselves should find more middle ground with the players when it comes to tourneys. What a caster makes on their stream, youtube, company salary or what not is none of our business.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this though as you are outspoken about giving back what you make to the players.
And I know we have a history together so consider this a disclaimer: My post here and earlier was in no way an attack against you (at least I didn't intend it to be) and I am not being sarcastic now.
Well myself, Greg and Chris discussed this at length at ASUS ROG so chances are you know my feelings on the matter but fact is, I can afford to throw all my SC2 money away and not notice, other casters rely on it 100%. If you are talking about appearance fees which I assume you are, yes players should be asking for them if they have the bargaining power to get them. There are too many tournaments to attend now and star players who have draw which could add monetary value to the event stream/tickets and ROI for the sponsors should be negotiating, backed by their team, for better terms and refusing to attend tournaments that won't play ball. If they ask for too much, they will be hurt by it so it's up to them to make a reasonable case and potentially unionise with other high-profile players to get what they're asking for.
As for my terms, we really negotiate on behalf of Apollo rather than me. He needs it, I don't and I always ensure he gets the same as I do whether it be flat payment or ad-based revenue share.
Something I didn't think about is appearance fees. Do Huk or Idra get them? Someone like White-ra even I think might be able to validly make an argument.
TB makes a pretty good point about that, I don't know how much of that has been discussed on the business side of things between teams and events?
On December 01 2011 07:24 SimDawg wrote: Something I didn't think about is appearance fees. Do Huk or Idra get them? Someone like White-ra even I think might be able to validly make an argument.
TB makes a pretty good point about that, I don't know how much of that has been discussed on the business side of things between teams and events?
The thing is that if they do exist they are kept under wraps, just like caster fees. I would happily reveal what I got paid for Dreamhack and previous events but fact is tournaments generally don't like you doing that. Money doesn't get out in public too often because people get very weird around the discussion.
I don't like the idea of appearance fees because that doesn't really fix the problem. The players who can command appearance fees are players like huk/idra, etc who already make a lot of money, so it's just the rich getting richer, while the other players are still in the same boat.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Sorry but that's not how it works.
Do you think there are more great soccer/football players than there are casters? Yes. And the players still make much more.
I am pretty sure there are more doctors in this world then there are sc2 casters. Doctors makes more (i would think anyway lol).
Point being, there are more factors. I don't think the fact that there are more "great" casters than there are great players has much to do with it.
Haha I love how the poster below you objectively proved you wrong. The difference a soccer announcer is replaceable (except maybe the guy who says "goooooaaaaaaalllllll"), soccer players are much less so. The 20th best announcer duo would do fine commentating arsenal vs Manchester United (soccer is gay, are these good teams?). It would still be widely watched and the amount of people who don't watch because of the commentator would be trivial. The absolute best soccer commentator in the world commentating me and 21 buddies kicking it around would not sell.
Casters are more of a draw than players at the moment. Back to my analogy, make a list of the 20 best Sc players and 20 best Sc casters. Would you rather watch 19 play 20 and have it casted by 1 + 2, or have player 1 play player 2 and have it castes by 19 and 20. I think most people would rather watch tasteless and artists cast something like Leenock vs Naniwa (roughly) than some mouth breather cast Nestea vs MC (arbitrary, fill in whoever you want). If you'd rather the latter, you're already a hardcore fan which is all well and good but you aren't who the people making business decision are targeting. You're gonna watch regardless. They are targeting the guy who would watch day9 cast AHGL. That's the average Joe, that's not a diehard SC fanatic who is gonna watch to see how Huk alters his ffe to get a slightly faster +1. The hardcore fan might prefer an analytical caster who will note how huk shaves 8 seconds off that upgrade, the unwashed masses, the people with the ability to make eSports explode would much prefer day9 tell a funny anecdote instead, while still hitting 95% of the game content.
There is two ways players get more money. They take a larger slice of the current pie, or eSports as a whole becomes a more valuable industry and they get the same slice of a bigger pie. Frankly the casters are the link between casual people and competitive SC, the players really aren't. Ask yourself seriously, what would be a bigger financial hit for the future of eSports: Day9 stops doing the daily and quits casting altogether, or the best SC2 player on the planet quits playing starcraft
yes appearance fees have been discussed and I do agree with it's sentiment.. I guess I am more getting at the fact that on an MLG weekend Huk can win 5k$ by besting a field of the best in the industry but casters (across the board) will get paid somewhere in the field of 600% more as a group.
my point is that tourneys at this time are budgeting to take advantage of the voiceless players and pay the self aware casters.. they cannot get a day9 to do a tourney for what a player would do.. nor should they.. but the disparity I would argue, and many would agree.. is way too much. Day9 is a precious commodity and deserves to make a lot of money. But flight, hotel, 2-3k appearance fee and then 20k + from ad revenue seems like a LOT for a weekend of casting a tourney that has a first place prize of 30k.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Players get paid less because they will compete for less (MLG) and being sent to an event to compete is considered an honor for players whereas being sent to cast an event is considered an honor for the event.
That seems directly like an effect of the above.
It's hard to objectively say but I agree there's simply less casters I'll listen to happily than players I'll watch happily. However, I think whether it is a good argument isn't as important as the validity of casters being "overpaid" and players being "underpaid."
Casters can think whatever they like, the business of the event is what is going to drive decisions. Or at least it should.
casters and players in starcraft are becoming more of the burger patty and bread. maybe like a cake and a fork, i'm horrible at metaphors : P----but some games become stale without the help of casters who attempt to add juice and excitement to the match, or point out awesome things that the every-day viewer would not notice or care about.
the further along the event/tournament goes, the sicker the match-ups get. how many times have you hit a must-watch match and just hope and pray your favourite casting duo is scheduled to cover it? i guess this is the demand that people are talking about here. players come and go; increase in level and deteriorate. some casters continue to exist within the scene because of how their personality/character is like. it is hard to change how you are, and i guess... it'd be hard to be hated entirely when you're adored already-----even if being disliked was your intention : P
The whole discussion is gross, if casters are paid "that" much, then that mean the tournaments thinks they are worth that much, that is all there is to know. People like HuK or Incontrol in this thread are missing the point : saying the casters are overpaid have something to do with how the players are treated by tournaments means you considers that the money the tournaments give to casters is somehow "stealed" from players, which is not the case. In reality, the more money casters make, the more people they are suppose to motivate to watch the event, the more money the players should also earn.
And if the players are worth more than what they are actually get, then they need to defend their right, together or alone, with the tournament organisers, and not bitch on casters salaries.
On December 01 2011 07:24 SimDawg wrote: Something I didn't think about is appearance fees. Do Huk or Idra get them? Someone like White-ra even I think might be able to validly make an argument.
TB makes a pretty good point about that, I don't know how much of that has been discussed on the business side of things between teams and events?
No they don't but Boxer does. Inside of korea other top koreans get appearance fees as well.
Casters are the only ones charging for that (and boxer) inside the NA/EU.
On December 01 2011 07:24 SimDawg wrote: Something I didn't think about is appearance fees. Do Huk or Idra get them? Someone like White-ra even I think might be able to validly make an argument.
TB makes a pretty good point about that, I don't know how much of that has been discussed on the business side of things between teams and events?
No they don't but Boxer does. Inside of korea other top koreans get appearance fees as well.
Casters are the only ones charging for that (and boxer) inside the NA/EU.
It is boxer.... Who wouldn't pay to have the emperor show up? :D
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Players get paid less because they will compete for less (MLG) and being sent to an event to compete is considered an honor for players whereas being sent to cast an event is considered an honor for the event.
Why is that the case, in your opinion? I think it's because players are a dime a dozen relative to an elite caster. I watch your stream with some regularity, but I watch it for your personality and interaction, not your sc2 skills, despite the fact you are very very good. Even if I feel like there is a better player streaming (not a troll, bear with me) I'll usually sti choose your stream. Frankly at this point SC2 is all about the ability to draw. And at this point in time a lot of casters are better at it than the players.
Is that ideal? No. But that's how it is.
And if Day9 wants to donate some of his earnings to the players more power to him, but it's not relevant to the topic at hand.
I thought one of the reasons behind teams was having someone with more business savvy to negotiate on behalf of the players? As someone said earlier, there's starting to be enough tournaments that players/teams can pick and choose which ones they'll appear at. If these teams think their players are worth more than they've been getting, they should go to bat for the players.
Telling us what caster incomes are like is poor form and unproductive.
On December 01 2011 07:42 Milkis wrote: Pretty sure BoxeR hasn't gotten any appearance fees for MLG. Pretty sure about that for NASL 1 too. Dunno about IPL but I somehow doubt it.
On December 01 2011 07:42 Milkis wrote: Pretty sure BoxeR hasn't gotten appearance fees for any foreign tournaments he has competed in...
How can you doubt the guy that has no source?
Some proper sources (such as official statements by tournament organizers) would definitely ease this debate significantly, but with this kind of topic I do not think that we will get any.
Players who cast are almost always better than exclusive casters. Why? Well, do I want Kasparov analyzing and commentating the chess match between Anand/Carlsen? OF COURSE! You need to be able to pick apart the details in the right and most enlightening way possible. You need someone on the cutting edge of gameplay with a deep breadth of knowledge that someone who casts exclusively (i.e. doesn't play professionally) cannot fulfill. Slasher is wrong and he's taking up the position of trying to save himself a job (that he clearly needs work on).
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Sorry but that's not how it works.
Do you think there are more great soccer/football players than there are casters? Yes. And the players still make much more.
I am pretty sure there are more doctors in this world then there are sc2 casters. Doctors makes more (i would think anyway lol).
Point being, there are more factors. I don't think the fact that there are more "great" casters than there are great players has much to do with it.
Haha I love how the poster below you objectively proved you wrong. The difference a soccer announcer is replaceable (except maybe the guy who says "goooooaaaaaaalllllll"), soccer players are much less so. The 20th best announcer duo would do fine commentating arsenal vs Manchester United (soccer is gay, are these good teams?). It would still be widely watched and the amount of people who don't watch because of the commentator would be trivial. The absolute best soccer commentator in the world commentating me and 21 buddies kicking it around would not sell.
Casters are more of a draw than players at the moment. Back to my analogy, make a list of the 20 best Sc players and 20 best Sc casters. Would you rather watch 19 play 20 and have it casted by 1 + 2, or have player 1 play player 2 and have it castes by 19 and 20. I think most people would rather watch tasteless and artists cast something like Leenock vs Naniwa (roughly) than some mouth breather cast Nestea vs MC (arbitrary, fill in whoever you want). If you'd rather the latter, you're already a hardcore fan which is all well and good but you aren't who the people making business decision are targeting. You're gonna watch regardless. They are targeting the guy who would watch day9 cast AHGL. That's the average Joe, that's not a diehard SC fanatic who is gonna watch to see how Huk alters his ffe to get a slightly faster +1. The hardcore fan might prefer an analytical caster who will note how huk shaves 8 seconds off that upgrade, the unwashed masses, the people with the ability to make eSports explode would much prefer day9 tell a funny anecdote instead, while still hitting 95% of the game content.
There is two ways players get more money. They take a larger slice of the current pie, or eSports as a whole becomes a more valuable industry and they get the same slice of a bigger pie. Frankly the casters are the link between casual people and competitive SC, the players really aren't. Ask yourself seriously, what would be a bigger financial hit for the future of eSports: Day9 stops doing the daily and quits casting altogether, or the best SC2 player on the planet quits playing starcraft
I don't know who the poster below me you are talking about, but if it's the guy who quoted me he seemed to agree with me.
Anyway about your post. Your first post you said it was pure numbers. I said that that is not correct at all, that there are other factors. You just wrote two big paragraphs about some of those factors lol.
The question you should be asing yourself why is soccer announcers replacable but sc2 casters aren't? There lies the problem imo.There are still more players in any sport than there are casters, but the salary relation isn't the same.
Casters are more famous than the players, that is part of the problem discussed in this thread. In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
On December 01 2011 07:27 Canucklehead wrote: I don't like the idea of appearance fees because that doesn't really fix the problem. The players who can command appearance fees are players like huk/idra, etc who already make a lot of money, so it's just the rich getting richer, while the other players are still in the same boat.
Well that goes back 2 pages ago to what I said, players/teams need to learn to create value for themselves. Why do all the bad/unpopular players deserve money?
Edit: If what Incontrol is arguing is there is a "gap" and the money should be distributed differently, okay. That's valid, certainly at MLG. Maybe less so at other tournaments, but I think it's almost a different issue.
On December 01 2011 07:46 Nagano wrote: Slasher is wrong and he's taking up the position of trying to save himself a job (that he clearly needs work on).
Slasher isn't even a caster, so his job is in no danger.
On December 01 2011 07:59 skyrunner wrote: In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
I brought it up in the SOTG thread. Personally the only sport I care about is football. I'll always watch the vikings play being I'm from MN. I'll watch other games too but I outright refuse to watch Monday night football because the casting crew is horse shit. I avoid some of the Sunday day crews like the plague because they're terrible at what they do. But I'll always watch Sunday night games even if I don't particularly care about the game solely because Al Michaels is the best sports caster on the face of the planet.
Bad casters can make things completely unwatchable. I'll even turn off the TV and turn on the Radio to listen to a game instead of watch it. So yeah, casters do matter.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Absolutely false and incorrect.
Casters get paid more because they ask for more money and by nature they are hired to do a job that does not have a "win or lose" clause in it.
Players get paid less because they will compete for less (MLG) and being sent to an event to compete is considered an honor for players whereas being sent to cast an event is considered an honor for the event.
Players arguing that some of that huge cost that goes to casters being met in the middle ground and fed more into the players is not a bad argument. Hell, Day9 has made this point, TB has made this point and I would hardly think tastosis/husky etc.. would argue against this.
You're definitely right that a huge component of it is the paradigm by which the two sides are paid. Casters are paid a set salary as a service whereas, as far as the tournaments are concerned, players have to earn every penny. And it's largely the case in real life sports as well. There's some cash prize for winning the Super Bowl, but it pales in comparison to what Al Michaels or John Saunders makes, and most of the money comes from the teams. Unfortunately, SC2 teams can't support that yet so I agree with you that some middle ground needs to be found until that does happen.
I don't know the specifics of Day9 or what kind of revenue DH had, but I do think a caster like him is worth every penny to most tournaments. It's like the current situation in the NBA. Keeping in mind that it's all part of the entertainment industry and the entire thing is supported by advertising and the number of eyes watching, the top stars in the NBA, even with $20 million dollar salaries, bring in more money for their team than they're paid. As a result, every other NBA player's salary gets bumped up a relative amount due to their performance, even though no one watches a game for the 4th or 5th best player on a team. In this case (and this is speculation on my part), having Day9 cast a tournament is probably more valuable for the tournament's numbers than having HuK or HerO or Naniwa play in your tournament. But, is a lesser known, somewhat prominent caster worth more than those players? Probably not. That's where a lot of the middle ground needs to be made up.
Day9 also happens to be in an extremely unique situation though. No offense to TB, Apollo or anyone else, but Day9 and Tastosis are attractions in and of themselves. I don't think any other casters are.
As for the discussion on player commentators versus dedicated casters, personally HSC3 was my favorite event to date because I prefer in depth analysis more than anything else, but I don't think the average SC2 fan agrees. And ultimately, that's what most event organizers should shoot for. Pro player analysts, unless they're extremely versatile talkers like iNc, will probably remain a niche.
On December 01 2011 07:27 Canucklehead wrote: I don't like the idea of appearance fees because that doesn't really fix the problem. The players who can command appearance fees are players like huk/idra, etc who already make a lot of money, so it's just the rich getting richer, while the other players are still in the same boat.
Well that goes back 2 pages ago to what I said, players/teams need to learn to create value for themselves. Why do all the bad/unpopular players deserve money?
Well I never necessarily meant to say they deserved more money, but someone brought up Huk saying that players deserve more money, which prompted someone to say huk shouldn't talk since he's the highest paid sc2 player. Then incontrol interjected and said huk was talking about players in general. Therefore, I assumed we were talking about the lesser known players deserving more money, which appearance fees don't help since they can't command any appearance fees, so it's still just status quo.
Sc2 is an interesting dynamic because while they do have teams, it's still essentially an individual competition like tennis and golf. In those sports you have to win or place well to make money. However, the key difference is in those sports you can finish like 50th in an event and still make a living off it, while you can't really do that in sc2 without a team salary. I don't really have any answers on how to fix that, but I will say casters like Day9 deserve everything they get and I don't really have a problem with certain casters being bigger stars than players.
On December 01 2011 07:59 skyrunner wrote: In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
I brought it up in the SOTG thread. Personally the only sport I care about is football. I'll always watch the vikings play being I'm from MN. I'll watch other games too but I outright refuse to watch Monday night football because the casting crew is horse shit. I avoid some of the Sunday day crews like the plague because they're terrible at what they do. But I'll always watch Sunday night games even if I don't particularly care about the game solely because Al Michaels is the best sports caster on the face of the planet.
Bad casters can make things completely unwatchable. I'll even turn off the TV and turn on the Radio to listen to a game instead of watch it. So yeah, casters do matter.
Well fair enough, though I think you're an extreme case. Yeah there are casters i can get really irritated at when watching sports, so casters matter, to some degree. But i would never let the casters influence my decision of what game im gonna be watching. And I would guess that's the way it is for most people.
There are some analysts and casters in sports that I really enjoy listening to and respect alot. However I don't think their job is harder than the players or that they work harder to get better at what they do. To have higher salary than the players are just ludicrous imho, and i totally understand the players if they think it's bs.
On December 01 2011 07:59 skyrunner wrote: In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
I brought it up in the SOTG thread. Personally the only sport I care about is football. I'll always watch the vikings play being I'm from MN. I'll watch other games too but I outright refuse to watch Monday night football because the casting crew is horse shit. I avoid some of the Sunday day crews like the plague because they're terrible at what they do. But I'll always watch Sunday night games even if I don't particularly care about the game solely because Al Michaels is the best sports caster on the face of the planet.
Bad casters can make things completely unwatchable. I'll even turn off the TV and turn on the Radio to listen to a game instead of watch it. So yeah, casters do matter.
Well fair enough, though I think you're an extreme case. Yeah there are casters i can get really irritated at when watching sports, so casters matter, to some degree. But i would never let the casters influence my decision of what game im gonna be watching. And I would guess that's the way it is for most people.
There are some analysts and casters in sports that I really enjoy listening to and respect alot. However I don't think their job is harder than the players or that they work harder to get better at what they do. To have higher salary than the players are just ludicrous imho, and i totally understand the players if they think it's bs.
What if it's a sport you're less familiar with, though? John Madden was getting $5 million/yr back in 2005 just for MNF, because he's a huge name with a big video game franchise and he could attract people that recognized the name but didn't closely follow the sport. He certainly didn't get it for his ability to give analysis.
Seems like a lot of players are jealous of the fact that Day9 is making bank casting, which to them seems like something that is a much easier job than they are doing (playing in very competitive tournaments). While I don't disagree that his job is most likely easier, it is missing the point financially.
Day9 is getting paid by the people who are in charge of the tournaments. How do the tournament organizers make money? By getting fans to show up or tune in. Who brings the most fans? Day9. That is why he is making money. Because he is providing the most value to the company.
I saw someone mention that casters have more face time on streams - though this is true, it didn't cause Day9 to become arguably the most popular SC2 related person. He has become so popular because he has provided the community with an awesome service the dailies FOR FREE. He has reached out further and shown more of who he is than anybody else in the community - above and beyond what is required. And not only that but he interacts with the community.
The top players actually have the easiest route to financial success. People tune in to top players because they like to see winners. Making an effort to connect is easy. But Huk, who is ironically the one inferring he should be paid more, does the least reaching out of any streamer.
On December 01 2011 07:59 skyrunner wrote: In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
I brought it up in the SOTG thread. Personally the only sport I care about is football. I'll always watch the vikings play being I'm from MN. I'll watch other games too but I outright refuse to watch Monday night football because the casting crew is horse shit. I avoid some of the Sunday day crews like the plague because they're terrible at what they do. But I'll always watch Sunday night games even if I don't particularly care about the game solely because Al Michaels is the best sports caster on the face of the planet.
Bad casters can make things completely unwatchable. I'll even turn off the TV and turn on the Radio to listen to a game instead of watch it. So yeah, casters do matter.
Well fair enough, though I think you're an extreme case. Yeah there are casters i can get really irritated at when watching sports, so casters matter, to some degree. But i would never let the casters influence my decision of what game im gonna be watching. And I would guess that's the way it is for most people.
There are some analysts and casters in sports that I really enjoy listening to and respect alot. However I don't think their job is harder than the players or that they work harder to get better at what they do. To have higher salary than the players are just ludicrous imho, and i totally understand the players if they think it's bs.
What if it's a sport you're less familiar with, though? John Madden was getting $5 million/yr back in 2005 just for MNF, because he's a huge name with a big video game franchise and he could attract people that recognized the name but didn't closely follow the sport. He certainly didn't get it for his ability to give analysis.
Hmm im not sure what i'd do if that was the case. Sports is something that you grow up with so people are usually familiar with it. With more obscure sports the broadcasters usually make sure to keep it at a introductory level while still being able to give deeper insight. I always prefer to get deep insights as well in whatever im watching, no matter how new i am to the sport. But i guess alot of people might be different from me.
Im guessing in the Madden case there is alot competition between the networks instead of him pulling in the viewers himself. People choose before the season what subscription to get instead of choosing on game by game basis?
I'm sure Husky is a huge draw. Personally i don't think he is a "great" caster at all, ala John Madden. He problably brings in the dough though. I don't know where im going with this but i'd rather the players be stars than casters. I guess people just want easy access and that they have more of a personal relationship with casters in sc2, alone in front of your pc rather than in the couch with family/friends.
Bottom line, in sports, people watch the lakers because of Kobe, not because Bob Johnsson is speaking into the mic.
On December 01 2011 08:50 Snijjer wrote: But Huk, who is ironically the one inferring he should be paid more, does the least reaching out of any streamer.
Before you put words in someone's mouth please actually READ the thread.
On December 01 2011 08:50 Snijjer wrote: But Huk, who is ironically the one inferring he should be paid more, does the least reaching out of any streamer.
Before you put words in someone's mouth please actually READ the thread.
I did, and that's what I got out of what he said.
Looking back on the thread there many who felt the same way.
I think the big theme from this, as well as last night's discussion on State of the Game, is that in the current state of affairs, casters are treated better than players by tournaments and fans, they make more money, and they're a lot more famous. We need to treat the players better. I'm not saying it's up to the community to do this, but things like sending MKP to Disneyland are a step in the right direction. Get-Huk-a-new-pillow fund, anyone?
Events are usually going to pay casters more than players. It kind of sucks, but it makes sense as a business decision. Especially given the nature of eSports, where much of the audiences experience with the product will be through the casters. The players make the sport, absolutely, but they, sadly, don't make all of the money for the event holders. You see the same thing in any professional sport. The Monday Night Football crew gets paid quite a bit more than your average NFL player. Now, of course there is always going to be some kind of Tom Brady type who gets way more than any caster, but in general, the sad fact is: the individual players don't make the tournament money. The winners make the tournament money, and so usually receive the largest chunk of the cash.
It's sad and it's totally Machiavellian, but it's how things are done; and I'm not unconvinced that it's the way things have to be done. It may sound harsh, but does a guy who is really good, but never wins tournaments or makes the finals, gonna bring that much of a draw to the event? Someone like MVP, who wins a lot of tournaments and is able to build recognition; he can bring a lot of people. It is similar to the reason why the guy who wins gets 50,000 and the guy who takes second gets half that; if he gets that much. Now, a good, recognizable, and well-liked Caster, he can bring a tournament a lot of draw just by being there. He/She has a fan-base, has name recognition, and furthermore; the interest they generate is not dependent upon how well they do in the tournament. If there was a huge tournament with all the big names, but a bunch of no-names knocked them out; a lot of people might not care about watching the rest of the tournament. The event planners have to think about those possible business costs and risks; and pay accordingly.
In the end, as the business grows and becomes more secure; pay and financial security will also rise. But there will always be those who make more and those who make less; and following the example of other professional sports; it will probably not be weighted in the players favor.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Sorry but that's not how it works.
Do you think there are more great soccer/football players than there are casters? Yes. And the players still make much more.
I am pretty sure there are more doctors in this world then there are sc2 casters. Doctors makes more (i would think anyway lol).
Point being, there are more factors. I don't think the fact that there are more "great" casters than there are great players has much to do with it.
Haha I love how the poster below you objectively proved you wrong. The difference a soccer announcer is replaceable (except maybe the guy who says "goooooaaaaaaalllllll"), soccer players are much less so. The 20th best announcer duo would do fine commentating arsenal vs Manchester United (soccer is gay, are these good teams?). It would still be widely watched and the amount of people who don't watch because of the commentator would be trivial. The absolute best soccer commentator in the world commentating me and 21 buddies kicking it around would not sell.
Casters are more of a draw than players at the moment. Back to my analogy, make a list of the 20 best Sc players and 20 best Sc casters. Would you rather watch 19 play 20 and have it casted by 1 + 2, or have player 1 play player 2 and have it castes by 19 and 20. I think most people would rather watch tasteless and artists cast something like Leenock vs Naniwa (roughly) than some mouth breather cast Nestea vs MC (arbitrary, fill in whoever you want). If you'd rather the latter, you're already a hardcore fan which is all well and good but you aren't who the people making business decision are targeting. You're gonna watch regardless. They are targeting the guy who would watch day9 cast AHGL. That's the average Joe, that's not a diehard SC fanatic who is gonna watch to see how Huk alters his ffe to get a slightly faster +1. The hardcore fan might prefer an analytical caster who will note how huk shaves 8 seconds off that upgrade, the unwashed masses, the people with the ability to make eSports explode would much prefer day9 tell a funny anecdote instead, while still hitting 95% of the game content.
There is two ways players get more money. They take a larger slice of the current pie, or eSports as a whole becomes a more valuable industry and they get the same slice of a bigger pie. Frankly the casters are the link between casual people and competitive SC, the players really aren't. Ask yourself seriously, what would be a bigger financial hit for the future of eSports: Day9 stops doing the daily and quits casting altogether, or the best SC2 player on the planet quits playing starcraft
I don't know who the poster below me you are talking about, but if it's the guy who quoted me he seemed to agree with me.
Anyway about your post. Your first post you said it was pure numbers. I said that that is not correct at all, that there are other factors. You just wrote two big paragraphs about some of those factors lol.
The question you should be asing yourself why is soccer announcers replacable but sc2 casters aren't? There lies the problem imo.There are still more players in any sport than there are casters, but the salary relation isn't the same.
Casters are more famous than the players, that is part of the problem discussed in this thread. In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
The post below you I refer to is the gentleman who says he enjoys watching a bunch of no-names play in the AHGL because day9 is casting it.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about when you say numbers. The number of great casters vs the number of great players is what I'm assuming because that's all my first post mentioned. My second post was just to try to help understand why the "numbers" are the way they are.
You say yourself "casters are more famous than the players," which at this time quite obviously seems to be the case. At least in terms of the elite casters. You can have a successful tournament without having 2-3 of the best players; it's harder to have a tournament without 2-3 of the best casters.
You're pissed off because you think this is inherently a problem. If I had it my way, yeah, the players would get more money than they do and more money than the casters. But as it stands the casters get more because they generate more money. It's how society works bro. Would it be cool if the guy who works 70 hour weeks cleaning the shitters at a law firm makes the same living as the partners? Sure, I think we all have a little socialist revolution somewhere deep down inside us, but it's a capitalist world. You're paid for the value you bring and the real tip top casters (Day, Artosis, Tasteless, etc) are more valuable than the players.
I'm not gonna speculate too hard but part of it is because SC2 is such an impersonal game. You have so much more interaction with the casters than the players (while the game is going on, players are really accessible outside the game to their credit). I would guess that the focus, and in turn the money, shifts toward the players if eSports blows up, but I still don't think it would ever reach the level of disparity you see in an NBA or NFL superstar and the crew calling the game. Just a different animal.
When casters stop getting the top billing at SC2 tournaments i'll probably take the scene a bit more serious. I don't put blame on anyone for the way it is over here, the community worships casters and the event hosts would be stupid to ignore that, so we're in the situation we're in.
For all the esports chanting that goes on the scene often times more closely resembles a game show to me, where the players are these unwitting contestants no one really cares about at the end of the day and should consider themselves so fortunate to have their chance at a prize.
On December 01 2011 08:19 skyrunner wrote: Well fair enough, though I think you're an extreme case. Yeah there are casters i can get really irritated at when watching sports, so casters matter, to some degree. But i would never let the casters influence my decision of what game im gonna be watching. And I would guess that's the way it is for most people.
There are some analysts and casters in sports that I really enjoy listening to and respect alot. However I don't think their job is harder than the players or that they work harder to get better at what they do. To have higher salary than the players are just ludicrous imho, and i totally understand the players if they think it's bs.
I very well may be an extreme case. I'll watch MNF, or endure one of the awful Sunday crews if I have to but ONLY if the Vikings are playing and I won't be happy about it. If it bugs me too much I'll run errands and listen on the car radio where I know what I'm getting is far superior than the given trash on TV.
Working harder than players I think depends on the player and the tourney in question. Something like MLG seems like it'd be a bitch of a marathon for casters and players alike to get through the whole weekend. Some of the tourneys that are more diced up the casters still have to do all the games while the players might not be playing as much on a given day.
As I said in the SOTG thread it's just a weird situation right now. Things are in their infancy but they're getting bigger. Which of course involves growing pains for any league. Right now casters might be a bigger draw for some people than (most) of the players. I know a friend that won't watch a tourney unless day[9] is casting it. Hell he won't even watch a game in a tourney unless he's the one casting that specific game.
So how does it all get fixed? I'm guessing through some sort of unionizing of players, the tourneys laying down their rules and structure in very bold black and white terms, owners/team management being a go between. From that point I think everything falls into place with caster pay vs player pay, shit talking between parties during an event, etc.
If everyone plays their cards right players become more prevalent to more people and get paid for their talent level. Casters aren't (potentially) scratching by. Rules are clear, concise and followed and the whole thing gets bigger (without over saturating the market plz. That is 100000000000000000000000000 times worse than under saturating). If things turn into a pissing match and one group thinks they're more important than the other things can fall apart in a hurry. It is possible among sensible human beings to sort things out fairly for all involved.
But yes, my overall point before is the best game in the world can become entirely unwatchable solely based on the presenters. If MLG got rid of Artosis, Day[9], Tasteless, Wheat, etc and replaced it with my mom or your uncle or some hobo from under a bridge literally no one would watch it, even if Jesus was playing against Idra with Satan sitting on his shoulder for the fate of the universe.
TaKe (http://www.taketv.net) is a great, but only German caster. He invested more money in Esports than any other caster i know. (His flat is the place where HSC takes place) ... haha,TaKe's Place . He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (http://www.taketv.net/ladder). Furthermore he always encourages people to do something sor esports (just like incontrol often does) His (featured on TL) stream has around 1-3k viewer. But I really can't explain to myself that this is enough to pay everything. His move was extremely risky. It's a sign for his passion for StarCraft and esports. He's contracted by the ESL and casts various shows within Germany, but the famous names of ESL.TV are still MrBItter and Rotterdam, because they act internationally. He is a real inspiration for me (The little North German league, that i contributed to SC). Take it from here, TaKe! (He is former WC3 Pro, WC3 Caster)
To get to the point: If TaKe is able to do so much with so little, why is Day9 still sitting in his little room and doing the dailies with his unprofessional equipment?
it can't be a lack of supporters. I hope he will build up something great, just like TaKe.
EDIT: I just thought that it would fit in the thread, because lots of you liked the creative HSC with its intimate atmosphere...
The assumption seems to be that more physical work should equal more money... which kind of flies in the face of "good business". It would seem that those who make the most money should get the most money; and, for whatever reason, those who make money don't always work as hard, physically, as those who make less money.
The inherent assumption that those who work harder physically work harder in general is a very flawed one.
On December 01 2011 07:30 iNcontroL wrote: yes appearance fees have been discussed and I do agree with it's sentiment.. I guess I am more getting at the fact that on an MLG weekend Huk can win 5k$ by besting a field of the best in the industry but casters (across the board) will get paid somewhere in the field of 600% more as a group.
my point is that tourneys at this time are budgeting to take advantage of the voiceless players and pay the self aware casters.. they cannot get a day9 to do a tourney for what a player would do.. nor should they.. but the disparity I would argue, and many would agree.. is way too much. Day9 is a precious commodity and deserves to make a lot of money. But flight, hotel, 2-3k appearance fee and then 20k + from ad revenue seems like a LOT for a weekend of casting a tourney that has a first place prize of 30k.
Wow you really, pretty much said everything i was thinking about when i came into this thread. Well Put. Everyone needs to see this post.
On December 01 2011 09:22 PeterUstinox wrote: TaKe (http://www.taketv.net) is a great, but only German caster. He invested more money in Esports than any other caster i know. (His flat is the place where HSC takes place) ... haha,TaKe's Place . He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (http://www.taketv.net/ladder). Furthermore he always encourages people to do something sor esports (just like incontrol often does) His (featured on TL) stream has around 1-3k viewer. But I really can't explain to myself that this is enough to pay everything. His move was extremely risky. It's a sign for his passion for StarCraft and esports. He's contracted by the ESL and casts various shows within Germany, but the famous names of ESL.TV are still MrBItter and Rotterdam, because they act internationally. He is a real inspiration for me (The little North German league, that i contributed to SC). Take it from here, TaKe! (He is former WC3 Pro, WC3 Caster)
To get to the point: If TaKe is able to do so much with so little, why is Day9 still sitting in his little room and doing the dailies with his unprofessional equipment?
it can't be a lack of supporters. I hope he will build up something great, just like TaKe.
EDIT: I just thought that it would fit in the thread, because lots of you liked the creative HSC with its intimate atmosphere...
Day9's daily has already contributed more to the sc2 community than Take has ever done. HSC is overrated. It's good for a one off tournament, but any more than that is overkill. It's basically just guys drinking and playing sc2 at a person's apartment and had a very unpforessional feel to it, which was the point of it. It felt like a lan party someone just threw, which is fine for a one off event, but shouldn't be hyped up beyond what it is because it's essentially a glorified lan in someone's basement. I personally didn't find watching gamers drinking on couches appealing and they should save it for the after party.
On December 01 2011 09:22 PeterUstinox wrote: TaKe (http://www.taketv.net) is a great, but only German caster. He invested more money in Esports than any other caster i know. (His flat is the place where HSC takes place) ... haha,TaKe's Place . He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (http://www.taketv.net/ladder). Furthermore he always encourages people to do something sor esports (just like incontrol often does) His (featured on TL) stream has around 1-3k viewer. But I really can't explain to myself that this is enough to pay everything. His move was extremely risky. It's a sign for his passion for StarCraft and esports. He's contracted by the ESL and casts various shows within Germany, but the famous names of ESL.TV are still MrBItter and Rotterdam, because they act internationally. He is a real inspiration for me (The little North German league, that i contributed to SC). Take it from here, TaKe! (He is former WC3 Pro, WC3 Caster)
To get to the point: If TaKe is able to do so much with so little, why is Day9 still sitting in his little room and doing the dailies with his unprofessional equipment?
it can't be a lack of supporters. I hope he will build up something great, just like TaKe.
EDIT: I just thought that it would fit in the thread, because lots of you liked the creative HSC with its intimate atmosphere...
people give in different ways, and i'm not sure how to word that beautifully or optimistically.
he has done quite a lot since his earlier days of not playing starcraft as a pro-gamer---so much that it bloomed this entire casting thing along with nick in korea and (shortly after) artosis at the time. sitting in his 'little room' is his own choice and may have to do with sentiments and such. i have heard somewhere about what mic he uses, which would be a 'professional' one if that were the ca se. since he is able to stream in HD, i would say that chunk of what he provides in dailies is not unprofessional either.
take made his own choices and has his own style (a very cool one at that!). so how can you compare either of them in the end? they both just clearly want to enjoy the game and be nice to the community on a daily human basis
:/ canucklehead's comment is quite harsh... rofl. quite full of hate too if i may say
On December 01 2011 09:22 PeterUstinox wrote: TaKe (http://www.taketv.net) is a great, but only German caster. He invested more money in Esports than any other caster i know. (His flat is the place where HSC takes place) ... haha,TaKe's Place . He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (http://www.taketv.net/ladder). Furthermore he always encourages people to do something sor esports (just like incontrol often does) His (featured on TL) stream has around 1-3k viewer. But I really can't explain to myself that this is enough to pay everything. His move was extremely risky. It's a sign for his passion for StarCraft and esports. He's contracted by the ESL and casts various shows within Germany, but the famous names of ESL.TV are still MrBItter and Rotterdam, because they act internationally. He is a real inspiration for me (The little North German league, that i contributed to SC). Take it from here, TaKe! (He is former WC3 Pro, WC3 Caster)
To get to the point: If TaKe is able to do so much with so little, why is Day9 still sitting in his little room and doing the dailies with his unprofessional equipment?
it can't be a lack of supporters. I hope he will build up something great, just like TaKe.
EDIT: I just thought that it would fit in the thread, because lots of you liked the creative HSC with its intimate atmosphere...
Day9's daily has already contributed more to the sc2 community than Take has ever done. HSC is overrated. It's good for a one off tournament, but any more than that is overkill. It's basically just guys drinking and playing sc2 at a person's apartment and had a very unpforessional feel to it, which was the point of it. It felt like a lan party someone just threw, which is fine for a one off event, but shouldn't be hyped up beyond what it is because it's essentially a glorified lan in someone's basement. I personally didn't find watching gamers drinking on couches appealing and they should save it for the after party.
You don't get it. It's just that day9 is not taking all out of his potential. He's investing literally no money into starcraft2 so far and that's not a good move. He is essential for the scene for his casting and spent time, but he could stop tomorrow by quitting his stream and there would be nothing left. Unfortunately TaKe can't quit tomorrow his flat is not for living, it's for gaming (18 monitors, 18 notebooks) example vid: it's no lan, it's still an event for progamers. you little canadian just don't know, that hsc is the first international appearance of TaKe. TaKe is in Germany far more important than day (he is a German caster only, remember?) this is why you're comparison lacks.
I don't know how reality looks like but my guess is that most viewers are actually more or less playing starcraft 2. And since Starcraft2 is a completly different "sportgenre" than something like soccer, racing etc. players have a complete different mindset. If you play soccer you know that most actions and decissions you make are following rules of experience and more over reaction to the situation. While in starcraft2 you can think far more ahead (because it's more controlled by gamemechanics / timings / same processes) and control far more in less time.
If I take these two thoughts together i think 1st the viewerbase is less unknown to the things that are happening and have second experienced far more likely situations of what they see in the stream.
I for example was always excited when I saw orb casting games PV* and watched him losing a very similiar match before on his own stream. And i am getting even more excited when I myself lost or won games in some similiar ways before and now watch how some known players fight it out in a better way. While orb could completly express that something "interessting" is going on and explain where the critical points are and you feel that's something that a player "feels" another hype caster would just describe what is going on and that both players playing great - whow.
I claim that the starcraft2 audience is not a game-fan-based audience but a player audience and with that play by play casters are or at last will be less entertaining. Maybe this whole "esport" thing will grow and more outsiders will become fans of the game without playing it - I guess then the tables will switch but till then ppl who can express playerfeelings are the most wanted casters.
And so I can only be against slasher on this and hope that casters showing more of their own games. It will do good, seeing how they do with the match they may have to cast some hours or days later. It will change their way of casting and it will be more entertaining than praising micro / macro or anything else.
Sorry 4 bad lang but I hope for my own entertainment that starcraft2 will be a game mostly players are watching and so i had to state my thoughts :p
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Sorry but that's not how it works.
Do you think there are more great soccer/football players than there are casters? Yes. And the players still make much more.
I am pretty sure there are more doctors in this world then there are sc2 casters. Doctors makes more (i would think anyway lol).
Point being, there are more factors. I don't think the fact that there are more "great" casters than there are great players has much to do with it.
Haha I love how the poster below you objectively proved you wrong. The difference a soccer announcer is replaceable (except maybe the guy who says "goooooaaaaaaalllllll"), soccer players are much less so. The 20th best announcer duo would do fine commentating arsenal vs Manchester United (soccer is gay, are these good teams?). It would still be widely watched and the amount of people who don't watch because of the commentator would be trivial. The absolute best soccer commentator in the world commentating me and 21 buddies kicking it around would not sell.
Casters are more of a draw than players at the moment. Back to my analogy, make a list of the 20 best Sc players and 20 best Sc casters. Would you rather watch 19 play 20 and have it casted by 1 + 2, or have player 1 play player 2 and have it castes by 19 and 20. I think most people would rather watch tasteless and artists cast something like Leenock vs Naniwa (roughly) than some mouth breather cast Nestea vs MC (arbitrary, fill in whoever you want). If you'd rather the latter, you're already a hardcore fan which is all well and good but you aren't who the people making business decision are targeting. You're gonna watch regardless. They are targeting the guy who would watch day9 cast AHGL. That's the average Joe, that's not a diehard SC fanatic who is gonna watch to see how Huk alters his ffe to get a slightly faster +1. The hardcore fan might prefer an analytical caster who will note how huk shaves 8 seconds off that upgrade, the unwashed masses, the people with the ability to make eSports explode would much prefer day9 tell a funny anecdote instead, while still hitting 95% of the game content.
There is two ways players get more money. They take a larger slice of the current pie, or eSports as a whole becomes a more valuable industry and they get the same slice of a bigger pie. Frankly the casters are the link between casual people and competitive SC, the players really aren't. Ask yourself seriously, what would be a bigger financial hit for the future of eSports: Day9 stops doing the daily and quits casting altogether, or the best SC2 player on the planet quits playing starcraft
I don't know who the poster below me you are talking about, but if it's the guy who quoted me he seemed to agree with me.
Anyway about your post. Your first post you said it was pure numbers. I said that that is not correct at all, that there are other factors. You just wrote two big paragraphs about some of those factors lol.
The question you should be asing yourself why is soccer announcers replacable but sc2 casters aren't? There lies the problem imo.There are still more players in any sport than there are casters, but the salary relation isn't the same.
Casters are more famous than the players, that is part of the problem discussed in this thread. In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
The post below you I refer to is the gentleman who says he enjoys watching a bunch of no-names play in the AHGL because day9 is casting it.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about when you say numbers. The number of great casters vs the number of great players is what I'm assuming because that's all my first post mentioned. My second post was just to try to help understand why the "numbers" are the way they are.
You say yourself "casters are more famous than the players," which at this time quite obviously seems to be the case. At least in terms of the elite casters. You can have a successful tournament without having 2-3 of the best players; it's harder to have a tournament without 2-3 of the best casters.
You're pissed off because you think this is inherently a problem. If I had it my way, yeah, the players would get more money than they do and more money than the casters. But as it stands the casters get more because they generate more money. It's how society works bro. Would it be cool if the guy who works 70 hour weeks cleaning the shitters at a law firm makes the same living as the partners? Sure, I think we all have a little socialist revolution somewhere deep down inside us, but it's a capitalist world. You're paid for the value you bring and the real tip top casters (Day, Artosis, Tasteless, etc) are more valuable than the players.
I'm not gonna speculate too hard but part of it is because SC2 is such an impersonal game. You have so much more interaction with the casters than the players (while the game is going on, players are really accessible outside the game to their credit). I would guess that the focus, and in turn the money, shifts toward the players if eSports blows up, but I still don't think it would ever reach the level of disparity you see in an NBA or NFL superstar and the crew calling the game. Just a different animal.
About numbers, the quote is right there, in the beginning: "Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really. "
That's what i have a problem with. That quote says that the ratio of great casters vs great players is small, and that's why they have higher salary. What im saying is that it has nothing to do with the ratio of NUMBER of players vs NUMBER of casters. I would say that in proffessional sports that ratio is about the same. A channel/network is gonna show a lot of players but only have a few casters in total. Yet the casters are never stars, and def never "superstars", wich is the case in sc2. And they don't make more money.
Therefore i say there are other factors. In your second post you pointed out one of those factors (imo), that the casters are more famous. I know this, and as i've said i think that is part of the problem and the overlaying discussion. Casters get more praise, more fame and more money than alot of the players. I even posted the same reason as you why part of that is.
Also i have a problem with your use of "great". Is Husky really a great caster? He is pretty good imo, but not great since he can't give deep insights into the game. Imo you have to have the full package to be considered great. He still draws alot of viewers though. Hence I don't think it has to do with the ratio of "great casters vs great players". i'd argue it takes more to be a great player than a great caster.
An important thing in this is that just as in sports there isn't any room for as many casters as there are players. That's one of the reasons there are fewer casters than players, not that it's so hard to be good at casting or that they are "hot commodity".
It has nothing to do with someone cleaning toilets wtf. Being a player is a high education job (i hope u understand what i mean), that's the hole in your analogy. The relationship is the exact same as it is for caster vs pro sports player. Im willing to predict that no caster spends 8 hours a day practicing casting. If the toilet cleaner would make more than the lawyers because "there are fewer great toilet cleaners than great lawyers at the firm" then we can talk (you don't need as many toilet cleaners as lawyers). But it's the opposite in in sc2 right now.
Tournaments needs to start pushing the players personalities more. Though that is not the underlying problem imo. If Nadal and Federer is playing no one gives a shit about who is casting. They might complain but they are never gonna change the channel. If people just wanna hear a familiar and entertaining "personality" what am i gonna do? Though i'd bet that casters wouldn't start turning down casting jobs if they got paid a little less.
A channel/network is gonna show a lot of players but only have a few casters in total. Yet the casters are never stars, and def never "superstars", wich is the case in sc2. And they don't make more money.
That is just not true. Casters in general get paid more than most players. Most professional sports players don't get million dollar salaries.
Do you think that Antwan Barnes gets a lot of money? He's one of my favorite defensive players right now for the Chargers (American football team). Most people don't know who he is or care. I bet he makes less money than most professionals who are not involved in sports. Most professional athletes end up working at Home Depot; tons of Olympic athletes do.
Is Husky really a great caster?
I think he's great. I prefer his casting to anyone else that I've heard, and I've heard Day 9 and Artosis and all the rest. I prefer Husky's style, and think it is more in line with professional casting. The others are very good, but I prefer him. Other people don't prefer him. It's all relative with a word like "great" as opposed to just "good".
The fact is; most players will not bring in big money, and therefore will not make big money. This cannot be changed by anyone who is mortal.
On December 01 2011 08:19 skyrunner wrote: Well fair enough, though I think you're an extreme case. Yeah there are casters i can get really irritated at when watching sports, so casters matter, to some degree. But i would never let the casters influence my decision of what game im gonna be watching. And I would guess that's the way it is for most people.
There are some analysts and casters in sports that I really enjoy listening to and respect alot. However I don't think their job is harder than the players or that they work harder to get better at what they do. To have higher salary than the players are just ludicrous imho, and i totally understand the players if they think it's bs.
I very well may be an extreme case. I'll watch MNF, or endure one of the awful Sunday crews if I have to but ONLY if the Vikings are playing and I won't be happy about it. If it bugs me too much I'll run errands and listen on the car radio where I know what I'm getting is far superior than the given trash on TV.
Working harder than players I think depends on the player and the tourney in question. Something like MLG seems like it'd be a bitch of a marathon for casters and players alike to get through the whole weekend. Some of the tourneys that are more diced up the casters still have to do all the games while the players might not be playing as much on a given day.
As I said in the SOTG thread it's just a weird situation right now. Things are in their infancy but they're getting bigger. Which of course involves growing pains for any league. Right now casters might be a bigger draw for some people than (most) of the players. I know a friend that won't watch a tourney unless day[9] is casting it. Hell he won't even watch a game in a tourney unless he's the one casting that specific game.
So how does it all get fixed? I'm guessing through some sort of unionizing of players, the tourneys laying down their rules and structure in very bold black and white terms, owners/team management being a go between. From that point I think everything falls into place with caster pay vs player pay, shit talking between parties during an event, etc.
If everyone plays their cards right players become more prevalent to more people and get paid for their talent level. Casters aren't (potentially) scratching by. Rules are clear, concise and followed and the whole thing gets bigger (without over saturating the market plz. That is 100000000000000000000000000 times worse than under saturating). If things turn into a pissing match and one group thinks they're more important than the other things can fall apart in a hurry. It is possible among sensible human beings to sort things out fairly for all involved.
But yes, my overall point before is the best game in the world can become entirely unwatchable solely based on the presenters. If MLG got rid of Artosis, Day[9], Tasteless, Wheat, etc and replaced it with my mom or your uncle or some hobo from under a bridge literally no one would watch it, even if Jesus was playing against Idra with Satan sitting on his shoulder for the fate of the universe.
Im gonna respond to the bold parts because it's alot right now
I think your aversion to watching sports with horrible casters is a pet peeve of yours and not indicative of the rest of the world. In sc2 however casters are very important, as the example with your friend shows.
Yes casting marathons can be grueling, im sure. But I don't think caster practice as much to improve their game compared to players. Being a player is cut throat tbh. If you made your name as a caster and is a familiar "personality" you're pretty much set.
I don't think anyone would want to listen to two people that can't speak very well or know the game. However i would still watch the MLG finals no matter who was casting (on mute in worst case). I would never watch to gold players duking it out. Well maybe, but only as humour lol, but thats another form of entertainment.
Yeah its probably because sc2 is rather young. I don't think we will ever see any unions, it's just... messy. I think the problem lies in the way sc2 as media is presented to the viewer. There should be more of a player focus imo. I think if it was the situation would be different today.
A channel/network is gonna show a lot of players but only have a few casters in total. Yet the casters are never stars, and def never "superstars", wich is the case in sc2. And they don't make more money.
That is just not true. Casters in general get paid more than most players. Most professional sports players don't get million dollar salaries.
Do you think that Antwan Barnes gets a lot of money? He's one of my favorite defensive players right now for the Chargers (American football team). Most people don't know who he is or care. I bet he makes less money than most professionals who are not involved in sports. Most professional athletes end up working at Home Depot; tons of Olympic athletes do.
I think he's great. I prefer his casting to anyone else that I've heard, and I've heard Day 9 and Artosis and all the rest. I prefer Husky's style, and think it is more in line with professional casting. The others are very good, but I prefer him. Other people don't prefer him. It's all relative with a word like "great" as opposed to just "good".
The fact is; most players will not bring in big money, and therefore will not make big money. This cannot be changed by anyone who is mortal.
I have a really hard time accepting that, in general, casters earn more than players in the proffessional sports world. There is no way that that is the case in Europe anyway. In soccer no caster makes more than the players in any top league. I can't imagine it being so in the NBA either. I'd say there are exceptions, but not in general. I guess there is no use in discussing this without statistics lol.
And yeah "great" is subjective. What im saying is that, objectively, husky isn'y great because he doesn't give deep insights to strategy, wich is kinda important. Im sure alot of people enjoy him more, but that's subjective. And that's the problem imo.
On December 01 2011 07:42 Milkis wrote: Pretty sure BoxeR hasn't gotten any appearance fees for MLG. Pretty sure about that for NASL 1 too. Dunno about IPL but I somehow doubt it.
Pretty sure my translations haven't gotten any info about MLG. Pretty sure about that for BW. Dunno about SC2 but I somehow doubt it.
PS I quit these forums and this entire sport because.. well..
Joking aside are you actually stating any facts or are you just trying to stir up trash with your usual passive-aggressive posting?
I have a really hard time accepting that, in general, casters earn more than players in the proffessional sports world.
It depends on your standards. If you take the non-celebrity casters and non-celebrity players; factor in the fact that casters last much longer at their job than professional athletes do, they will end up making more money. Put celebrity casters in and you see that only the top of the top superstar athletes make more money than them, and sometimes not even as much. John Madden has more money than almost any football player right now. He walked away from a $15 million contract extension. The statistics say that professional athlete is not a job that will provide lifelong security for most professional athletes. Professional caster is more of a job that can provide lifetime security.
I could just as easily say that Day9 and Artosis are not objectively great because they don't have enough personality or are as interesting as Husky. Or that only Tasteless and Husky have good "caster voices". It's still opinion; and it may not be true for everyone. There is no problem with people preferring something that you don't, just like there is no problem with people not preferring something you do.
Do you think Day 9, or Tassadar (to take a random Code A guy for example), brings more attention and therefore money to a tournament? And why exactly is that wrong?
If there is a problem between casters and players, it is created by the viewers. The great divide in how they are treated is because tournament organizers realize what generates viewers: casters.
Casters are celebrities in our community. We will watch day[9] cast an event regardless of whose playing. He could be casting bronze scrubs and get 10k viewers. On the other hand, a relatively unknown caster could be casting two Code S level Korean players and only have a few hundred viewers.
The inequality is entirely created by the community that believes the quality of an event is based on whose casting as oppose to the players participating.
It's time to realize guys, the blame is on us. We need to expand our horizons and choose what events we watch based on it's merits, not on its commentators. Until we start doing this, celebrity casters that generate viewers will always be a priority for event organizers.
I have a really hard time accepting that, in general, casters earn more than players in the proffessional sports world.
It depends on your standards. If you take the non-celebrity casters and non-celebrity players; factor in the fact that casters last much longer at their job than professional athletes do, they will end up making more money. Put celebrity casters in and you see that only the top of the top superstar athletes make more money than them, and sometimes not even as much. John Madden has more money than almost any football player right now. He walked away from a $15 million contract extension. The statistics say that professional athlete is not a job that will provide lifelong security for most professional athletes. Professional caster is more of a job that can provide lifetime security.
I could just as easily say that Day9 and Artosis are not objectively great because they don't have enough personality or are as interesting as Husky. Or that only Tasteless and Husky have good "caster voices". It's still opinion; and it may not be true for everyone. There is no problem with people preferring something that you don't, just like there is no problem with people not preferring something you do.
Do you think Day 9, or Tassadar (to take a random Code A guy for example), brings more attention and therefore money to a tournament? And why exactly is that wrong?
I think it's time for me to let go of this thread lol i don't wanna beat a dead horse.
Im talking about salary, not total earnings. The fact that proffessional players earn money under a shorter time is actually an argument for them having higher salary.
I'd say overall players in proffessional sports make more than casters (again). But there are exceptions. John Madden is a god damned video game franchise, he is an exception. Im sure mcenroe makes money as well as other "celebrity" casters. The thing is they're famous because they were players. The got famous when they played, and happend to translate well into media. See? They are star casters because they made their names as players, we're talking about a sport that puts it's focus on the players. Ordinary caster is never gonna get the attention that someone that shit out YT videos will in the sc2 community.
I think it's detrimental to the game when the focus is not on who is playing but who is casting. If we truly want this to be an ESPORT we need to focus on the game and the players, not casters. It's not a "sport" or a legit competition if the attention is to caster casting gold players rather than the best in the world doing there best to WIN. What the hell is the incentive to be a top player when you have to work harder than the casters, and the casters get the fame, money and praise? That is not healthy.
An events focus should not be paying players to play. Rather paying for casters IS more important. Offering 100k prize pool where the winner takes half, and you have 50 people who could all possibly win it doesn't make sense. And then another 100 people who could place top 8 or top 16. The numbers don't add up plain and simple. Casters are making some good money right now, cause they are in HIGH demand by MANY tournaments. (Well the great casters )
Teams should have sponsors which in turn then pays for the salary of the players. Thing is Sponsors are not going to get the recoginiztion the need from individual league tournaments. There needs to be a Team league, just like football, baseball, hockey, etc... This in turn will help drive players salaries up, and give them a better living.
The problem is that you are talking about shoulds and should-nots rather than is and is nots. Should the professional athlete make more money? I don't know. You could say yes, and give me a whole bunch of reasons, another guy could say no and give me plenty of reasons. Is the average professional athlete going to make more money than the average professional caster? Probably not. Average salary for most top-league professional athletes is about $100,000/yr. Average salary for a professional sports caster is about $85,000/yr.
You say John Madden is an exception? OK. What about Gruden? Mike Tirico? Jaws? Chris Collinsworth? You say they got famous while playing the game? Well... a lot of guys were famous while playing the game... they aren't making that much money anymore. Only a select few went on to make money as casters, and not because they were famous players, but because they were excellent casters.
I don't see how the fans of this sport put any more emphasis on casters than the fans of most sports do. Most fans have one or two players that they like, one or two coaches, one or two teams; but they all know the casters. It's the same casters day in and day out. They have much more interaction with the casters. A good caster can turn a boring game into a fun game, a bad caster can turn an epic game into a snoozeville.
Do you really think Day 9 would keep getting attention from the community if he stopped casting anything but Bronze league players? People watch Day 9 because they know they can usually find him casting good games. If he didn't cast good games then he wouldn't be the number 1. Simple as that. Seems like everyone is complaining about a problem that just doesn't exist, and yearning toward an ideal that they perceive in other sports that just isn't there. For every superstar who gets paid big bucks as an athlete, there are a hundred unknowns who get paid decent, but peanuts comparatively. For every one of those guys there are a hundred practice squad or B-squad guys who barely make peanuts. For every one of those guys there are a thousand wanabees who really don't make anything at all. It's the nature of the world. I doubt MVP is hurting for cash. If he keeps winning, he will never be hurting for cash. If he can't win, he won't get any more money. It's sad, but it's just the way it is.
Isn't the main problem is that starcraft is a single player game, unlike basket or any other team game ? I mean, no matter what, there are only 1-4 winners in a tournament, while there is always like 30 serious contender in each MLG. So of course players are not going to get as money as casters.
If MLG could develop some kind of team league, where teams get, as soon as they are qualified and no matter what their position within the league, a good enough financement for them to sustain their roster and give good salaries to everyone ?
I wish people would stop talking about Day9's 'free' dailies as though their creation is some incredibly altruistic act done only to benefit the gaming community. Don't be such suckers. He gets ad revenues, sells merchandise, sells subscriptions, solicits donations... the 'dailies' product being given away for free is simply the best business model available. It's like saying Riot Games makes LoL only for the love of gamers and not to make money because it's 'free'. That's fucking retarded. He's making big bank off of his work and that's why he'll continue to do it. Good for him, it's a great business model and he attacked the market ferociously at the game's launch. He deserves it. If he tried to charge for the actual dailies people would fuck right off and not watch. That's how video content on the Internet is consumed and monetized.
As for why casters get paid more, I answered that a few pages back and it went ignored. I guess I don't have enough posts to have what I type read. As someone who has worked in the entertainment business for nearly two decades, this thread is like listening to a bunch of kids learning about money for the first time.
A channel/network is gonna show a lot of players but only have a few casters in total. Yet the casters are never stars, and def never "superstars", wich is the case in sc2. And they don't make more money.
That is just not true. Casters in general get paid more than most players. Most professional sports players don't get million dollar salaries.
Do you think that Antwan Barnes gets a lot of money? He's one of my favorite defensive players right now for the Chargers (American football team). Most people don't know who he is or care. I bet he makes less money than most professionals who are not involved in sports. Most professional athletes end up working at Home Depot; tons of Olympic athletes do.
NFL minimum salary alone isn't that much behind what commentators make (for their commentating that is, most of them have other media jobs too). And even ignoring the fact that a lot of players make far more than the minimum, NFL commentators aren't "stars."
People don't specifically watch football games to hear the commentary like SC2 viewers do for casters. I've never heard of anyone losing their shit over Al Michaels, and he's about as famous as sportscasters get. Meanwhile, Day9, Artosis, Tasteless, Djwheat, HD, Husky, Totalbiscuit, etc. are all bigger deals than half the players who make the top 8 in every tournament.
Of course all of that was about the NFL, which isn't even an individual sport like SC is. For an even more clear comparison, look at tennis or golf. Half the time, no one even has a clue who's commentating.
It's really weird how SC2 is so different from any sport in this regard. IMO it's actually quite sad.
A tournament can help a player by advertising their skill to a much larger audience. It is much more difficult to advertise yourself without tournament participation. I would agree that the tournaments should broaden the winnings over more players with a larger pool so that they can continue bringing quality games and entertainment.
On December 01 2011 09:22 PeterUstinox wrote: TaKe (http://www.taketv.net) is a great, but only German caster. He invested more money in Esports than any other caster i know. (His flat is the place where HSC takes place) ... haha,TaKe's Place . He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (http://www.taketv.net/ladder). Furthermore he always encourages people to do something sor esports (just like incontrol often does) His (featured on TL) stream has around 1-3k viewer. But I really can't explain to myself that this is enough to pay everything. His move was extremely risky. It's a sign for his passion for StarCraft and esports. He's contracted by the ESL and casts various shows within Germany, but the famous names of ESL.TV are still MrBItter and Rotterdam, because they act internationally. He is a real inspiration for me (The little North German league, that i contributed to SC). Take it from here, TaKe! (He is former WC3 Pro, WC3 Caster)
To get to the point: If TaKe is able to do so much with so little, why is Day9 still sitting in his little room and doing the dailies with his unprofessional equipment?
it can't be a lack of supporters. I hope he will build up something great, just like TaKe.
EDIT: I just thought that it would fit in the thread, because lots of you liked the creative HSC with its intimate atmosphere...
Day9's daily has already contributed more to the sc2 community than Take has ever done. HSC is overrated. It's good for a one off tournament, but any more than that is overkill. It's basically just guys drinking and playing sc2 at a person's apartment and had a very unpforessional feel to it, which was the point of it. It felt like a lan party someone just threw, which is fine for a one off event, but shouldn't be hyped up beyond what it is because it's essentially a glorified lan in someone's basement. I personally didn't find watching gamers drinking on couches appealing and they should save it for the after party.
You don't get it. It's just that day9 is not taking all out of his potential. He's investing literally no money into starcraft2 so far and that's not a good move. He is essential for the scene for his casting and spent time, but he could stop tomorrow by quitting his stream and there would be nothing left. Unfortunately TaKe can't quit tomorrow his flat is not for living, it's for gaming (18 monitors, 18 notebooks) example vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kBEsU6bteyM#! it's no lan, it's still an event for progamers. you little canadian just don't know, that hsc is the first international appearance of TaKe. TaKe is in Germany far more important than day (he is a German caster only, remember?) this is why you're comparison lacks.
No, you don't understand that day9 is under no obligation to invest his own money into the scene, nor should he be expected to. The money he earns is his own income and he can choose what to do with it. It's like telling someone to donate to charity. Some people do and some people don't. You shouldn't judge or expect everyone to donate to a charity just because someone else does. Plus I believe day9 donated 5k of his own money to charity for the AGHL he ran.
Why should day9 be expected to invest money into the scene? That means tastosis and everyone else should be expected to as well. Take did and that's his own choice to do so, and you shouldn't judge day9 just because he doesn't run a tourney from his apartment.
Closest I could find was Al Michaels makes 2.9 mil a year circa 2006 which appears to be double the average NFL player salary at that time. Granted it's not quite apples to apples since you're talking the king of NFL commentary vs a league average. Just throwing the numbers I found out there.
On December 01 2011 09:22 PeterUstinox wrote: TaKe (http://www.taketv.net) is a great, but only German caster. He invested more money in Esports than any other caster i know. (His flat is the place where HSC takes place) ... haha,TaKe's Place . He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (http://www.taketv.net/ladder). Furthermore he always encourages people to do something sor esports (just like incontrol often does) His (featured on TL) stream has around 1-3k viewer. But I really can't explain to myself that this is enough to pay everything. His move was extremely risky. It's a sign for his passion for StarCraft and esports. He's contracted by the ESL and casts various shows within Germany, but the famous names of ESL.TV are still MrBItter and Rotterdam, because they act internationally. He is a real inspiration for me (The little North German league, that i contributed to SC). Take it from here, TaKe! (He is former WC3 Pro, WC3 Caster)
To get to the point: If TaKe is able to do so much with so little, why is Day9 still sitting in his little room and doing the dailies with his unprofessional equipment?
it can't be a lack of supporters. I hope he will build up something great, just like TaKe.
EDIT: I just thought that it would fit in the thread, because lots of you liked the creative HSC with its intimate atmosphere...
Day9's daily has already contributed more to the sc2 community than Take has ever done. HSC is overrated. It's good for a one off tournament, but any more than that is overkill. It's basically just guys drinking and playing sc2 at a person's apartment and had a very unpforessional feel to it, which was the point of it. It felt like a lan party someone just threw, which is fine for a one off event, but shouldn't be hyped up beyond what it is because it's essentially a glorified lan in someone's basement. I personally didn't find watching gamers drinking on couches appealing and they should save it for the after party.
A channel/network is gonna show a lot of players but only have a few casters in total. Yet the casters are never stars, and def never "superstars", wich is the case in sc2. And they don't make more money.
That is just not true. Casters in general get paid more than most players. Most professional sports players don't get million dollar salaries.
Do you think that Antwan Barnes gets a lot of money? He's one of my favorite defensive players right now for the Chargers (American football team). Most people don't know who he is or care. I bet he makes less money than most professionals who are not involved in sports. Most professional athletes end up working at Home Depot; tons of Olympic athletes do.
I think he's great. I prefer his casting to anyone else that I've heard, and I've heard Day 9 and Artosis and all the rest. I prefer Husky's style, and think it is more in line with professional casting. The others are very good, but I prefer him. Other people don't prefer him. It's all relative with a word like "great" as opposed to just "good".
The fact is; most players will not bring in big money, and therefore will not make big money. This cannot be changed by anyone who is mortal.
Are you kidding me? Anybody in the NFL, NBA, NHL, etc, make FAR more than people not involved in professional sports. From a quick search, I can see that Antwan Barnes makes 1.6 million a year. Yeah, a lot of people involved in olympic sports or in minor leagues or whatever don't make a whole lot. Neither do unpopular commentators.
Yep... besides a handful most the casters are really not that great I find. I had no idea that even the sub par ones were 'overpaid' like huk says though... that is pretty sad considering most pro players get nothing beside tourney wins and live in poverty.. somethings wrong here.
I was in a bit of this twitter war yesterday as well... and I mentioned that there are some very solid analytical casters who are not pros. There are guys/gals out there that study the game more then some of the pros do.. but they just do not have the skill to put it altogether.
Has anyone heard mouz.kaelaris or barbarbossa? Both are more analytical in nature and neither are pro players.
Besides.. the best pro in the world may have insight into a game..but it may be very specific to his style and it certainly does not mean that he can put together a full sentence.
Personally.. I think there is a lot of talent out there that is untapped because the community is too busy riding the @#$@'s of a few select casters just because they were 'first' or because they create drama or simply because some of us are too dumb to know what's good and whats not.
I do agree that in SC2 it seems as if the casters are more the celebrities then the players.
On December 01 2011 11:31 VvyzZ wrote: I wish people would stop talking about Day9's 'free' dailies as though their creation is some incredibly altruistic act done only to benefit the gaming community. Don't be such suckers. He gets ad revenues, sells merchandise, sells subscriptions, solicits donations... the 'dailies' product being given away for free is simply the best business model available. It's like saying Riot Games makes LoL only for the love of gamers and not to make money because it's 'free'. That's fucking retarded. He's making big bank off of his work and that's why he'll continue to do it. Good for him, it's a great business model and he attacked the market ferociously at the game's launch. He deserves it. If he tried to charge for the actual dailies people would fuck right off and not watch. That's how video content on the Internet is consumed and monetized.
As for why casters get paid more, I answered that a few pages back and it went ignored. I guess I don't have enough posts to have what I type read. As someone who has worked in the entertainment business for nearly two decades, this thread is like listening to a bunch of kids learning about money for the first time.
Are you seriously that ignorant? I mean maybe you just doubt Day9's veracity, but he has stated multiple times that if Starcraft falls through completely, and he has to work at a pizza hut for the rest of his life he would still sit in his room and analyze games. That is actually the thing that he loves the most. He does the daily because he loves it. Yes, he makes a lot of money doing it, and that is awesome because it means he can devote his time to doing it well rather than have to work at a Pizza Hut. But he doesn't do it to make money.
There is a big difference between Riot making a product [LoL] for the purposes of generating profit that happens to be under a microtransaction model, and Day9 making a product [The Daily] for the purposes of enjoying Starcraft that happens to generate a profit. Just because they both happen to lead to the same thing doesn't mean the process to get there isn't important.
Do you want to know why Day9 is hella loved in the community? It's because he does the dailies out of love. As far as I can tell, that hasn't changed. I obviously don't know Day9 as well as the people in this community that have been here for years, or his friends and casters, but excluding the business acumen side of it, it seems like Day9 and people like him (Artosis) are doing Starcraft because they love the game more than anything else. That's why Day9 does the daily, and that is why despite him making bank of it, the fact that it is free is the more important part since it is the act of sharing that content that makes it cool.
That could be wrong though. At this point, you are perfectly right that having it be for pay would royally stupid, and maybe Day9 is only in it for the money. But let's not ignore that in his first dailies Day9 was ecstatic when he hit 500 viewers. I for one choose to believe that the money is a nice benefit, and SC is Day9/Artosis crack.
On December 01 2011 10:48 DoomsVille wrote: If there is a problem between casters and players, it is created by the viewers. The great divide in how they are treated is because tournament organizers realize what generates viewers: casters.
Casters are celebrities in our community. We will watch day[9] cast an event regardless of whose playing. He could be casting bronze scrubs and get 10k viewers. On the other hand, a relatively unknown caster could be casting two Code S level Korean players and only have a few hundred viewers.
The inequality is entirely created by the community that believes the quality of an event is based on whose casting as oppose to the players participating.
It's time to realize guys, the blame is on us. We need to expand our horizons and choose what events we watch based on it's merits, not on its commentators. Until we start doing this, celebrity casters that generate viewers will always be a priority for event organizers.
I do choose which events I watch based on their merits. Commentators are a big part of that. The player roster matters too, as does the format and the amount of downtime between games, but I'm not going to pretend that I don't enjoy watching a tournament much more when one of my favorite casters is commentating.
A lot of matches aren't that exciting, and a lot of players aren't that interesting to watch. Without color commentary I'd probably just tune out until the finals, or simply watch recommended VoDs after the fact.
So as a viewer, I'm perfectly content to "take the blame," even though I think players should be looking at their team management to get them a better deal, instead of just envying casters.
On December 01 2011 11:31 VvyzZ wrote: I wish people would stop talking about Day9's 'free' dailies as though their creation is some incredibly altruistic act done only to benefit the gaming community. Don't be such suckers. He gets ad revenues, sells merchandise, sells subscriptions, solicits donations... the 'dailies' product being given away for free is simply the best business model available. It's like saying Riot Games makes LoL only for the love of gamers and not to make money because it's 'free'. That's fucking retarded. He's making big bank off of his work and that's why he'll continue to do it. Good for him, it's a great business model and he attacked the market ferociously at the game's launch. He deserves it. If he tried to charge for the actual dailies people would fuck right off and not watch. That's how video content on the Internet is consumed and monetized.
As for why casters get paid more, I answered that a few pages back and it went ignored. I guess I don't have enough posts to have what I type read. As someone who has worked in the entertainment business for nearly two decades, this thread is like listening to a bunch of kids learning about money for the first time.
On December 01 2011 04:25 iNcontroL wrote: Did you know Day9 made around 20k dream hack weekend? How much do you think TB made?
Pointing numbers about how much casters make is not good for anybody.
Posting real comparisons isn't a problem, the problem here is that Geoff's making up numbers to support his teammates
Normally I just try and ignore idiot forum people who actually have no idea and try to post to defame or spread lies about a community figure but in this case I will make an exception.. I was not making up numbers they are speculated by the DH staff and discussed alongside numerous players who attended and discussed this.
Go away troll
Key word there iNcontrol was 'speculated'.. my educated guess is that number you give is a bit high.
To me is just seems like Slasher being Slasher TBH.
I do believe that constantly looking forward to making e-sports more professional is silly, starcraft is it's own thing, and it is special. We shouldn't conform to things like baseball which are completely different. E-sports has something special that nothing else in the world has, and we shouldn't try and change that.
On December 01 2011 07:39 Dubsy wrote: Why is that the case, in your opinion? I think it's because players are a dime a dozen relative to an elite caster.
A lot of the casters being chosen for tournaments are hardly elite though; not even close. It's just been a self-fulfilling cycle of the same people being picked for every event therefore leading to this false impression. The fact that people are willing to put up with and even enjoy non-analytical casting of what is supposed to be a strategy game is just a sad reflection on the viewerbase. I doubt the people who enjoy this willl even be long-term viewers because it won't even remain interesting.
People keep saying 'oh well in <other sport> players don't cast' as if it's relevent. If they could have players cast then they would, do you think say Chess has people who don't know the game to a high level casting?
On December 01 2011 13:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: To me is just seems like Slasher being Slasher TBH.
I do believe that constantly looking forward to making e-sports more professional is silly, starcraft is it's own thing, and it is special. We shouldn't conform to things like baseball which are completely different. E-sports has something special that nothing else in the world has, and we shouldn't try and change that.
The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago
On December 01 2011 13:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: To me is just seems like Slasher being Slasher TBH.
I do believe that constantly looking forward to making e-sports more professional is silly, starcraft is it's own thing, and it is special. We shouldn't conform to things like baseball which are completely different. E-sports has something special that nothing else in the world has, and we shouldn't try and change that.
The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago
Keep telling yourself that...SC2 is a legitimate spectator sport because of two things alone. KeSPA creating the modern BW pro-scene, and Blizzard making a competitive successor to BW. The SC2 scene now is where BW was in like 2002, and light-years ahead of CS/Quake/Unreal/Halo at any time in the past 10 years. BW is the only surviving game from the first WCG, to be replaced this year by SC2. Every sign points to SC2 not being just like every other esport game, but being like BW - in other words, far-and-above the rest.
You might be able to get away with statements like that elsewhere, but not here. A lot of the old hands from the foreign BW scene are too kind to say these things themselves, because they have to get along with all the new carpetbaggers. But just remember, before Day9 was a SC2 casting superstar, he was the guy who wrote this:
He's earned his place in the Starcraft community, as have have a few others. We all know who they are. The rest...well, frankly I don't give a damn about them. I don't care about e-sports, I care about starcraft. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but don't be surprised when you find that the Starcraft viewer doesn't care about Team X or Y (ninja edit: TL excepted, of course), they care about the players, or when your viewer numbers take a nose-dive because you've hired your shiny know-nothing "professional e-sports casters" rather than Starcraft casters who command respect in the Starcraft community.
Pro-SC2 comes from Korean pro-BW. SC2 will continue to evolve, but for now, its a different community, different rules.
On December 01 2011 11:31 VvyzZ wrote: I wish people would stop talking about Day9's 'free' dailies as though their creation is some incredibly altruistic act done only to benefit the gaming community. Don't be such suckers. He gets ad revenues, sells merchandise, sells subscriptions, solicits donations... the 'dailies' product being given away for free is simply the best business model available. It's like saying Riot Games makes LoL only for the love of gamers and not to make money because it's 'free'. That's fucking retarded. He's making big bank off of his work and that's why he'll continue to do it. Good for him, it's a great business model and he attacked the market ferociously at the game's launch. He deserves it. If he tried to charge for the actual dailies people would fuck right off and not watch. That's how video content on the Internet is consumed and monetized.
As for why casters get paid more, I answered that a few pages back and it went ignored. I guess I don't have enough posts to have what I type read. As someone who has worked in the entertainment business for nearly two decades, this thread is like listening to a bunch of kids learning about money for the first time.
I don't know how much he makes, but he's earned it. You're right, it's a business, and it's not altruistic. But Day9 has been in the Starcraft community long before he started making money off of it. That's the difference. It's passion, knowledge and skill in Starcraft first, money second.
What I can't stand is the mentality of the "OMG e-sports!" people who have rushed in like desert wanderers to an oasis, with no knowledge and no respect for the Starcraft community, trying to make a quick buck, and some of the naive SC2 newcomers who take them seriously. They deserve each other.
Again...don't care about e-sports. Don't care about team EG. Don't care about MLG. EG supports some players I like, and MLG uses some casters and hosts some matches between players I like. I don't mind at all that they make money doing it. But they're sadly mistaken if they think viewer loyalty lies with "ESPORTS!" rather than players and casters of the starcraft community.
I agree with HuK on this one, BUT there was no need to cause so much drama. The thing about casting is that it makes the game easier to watch for those who are less informed. Thus why the other thread for 2 analytical casters and not 1 analytical 1 fun. I feel like way too much emphasis is put on casters, the players playing the game don't get plugged, but the casters do and when it comes down to it i know a lot of people know who day9 is but probably not NHS.Tassadar. The problem with professional casters is that people like Naniwa who are just absolute issues when it comes to losing or talking about a loss, or sometimes just talking at all can't be casters. They have great ability, but they can't speak in public, i beleive it was artosis who said you just can't give the guy a yes/no question or he won't talk at all. Some people, like HuK and Idra have been known to cause drama and be biased in their appraisals of the game, which would screw over any cast really. The reason their are professional casters stems from the fact that not all pros are great talkers, but their are exceptions, Painuser, HDstarcraft, Psystarcraft, Desrow, all of them are great at talking to a crowd and are relatively superb casters from an analytical stand point. Fun casting is an issue as i have never seen a fun caster come from the pros.
NFL minimum salary alone isn't that much behind what commentators make (for their commentating that is, most of them have other media jobs too). And even ignoring the fact that a lot of players make far more than the minimum, NFL commentators aren't "stars."
The analogy isn't perfectly accurate because they are completely different sports. But it is interesting that looking at the relative LIFETIME incomes of players and casters, the casters probably get a way better deal. NFL commentators aren't stars, but they are important to the presentation of the game. Which leads to my next point:
People don't specifically watch football games to hear the commentary like SC2 viewers do for casters. I've never heard of anyone losing their shit over Al Michaels, and he's about as famous as sportscasters get. Meanwhile, Day9, Artosis, Tasteless, Djwheat, HD, Husky, Totalbiscuit, etc. are all bigger deals than half the players who make the top 8 in every tournament.
Football is a much simpler game, on it's face, than Starcraft is. Furthermore, Football has been played for close to three centuries, and is a much greater part of the fabric of American society than Starcraft is. People can watch a game of football without a commentator and know what is going on, even the layman. Starcraft2 is not so simple for the layman to understand or track. A good commentator is important because they help people who are just fans understand the game, and the players. More casual fans have more exposure to the caster than the player, which will lead to more money flowing in the direction of the caster.
Are you kidding me? Anybody in the NFL, NBA, NHL, etc, make FAR more than people not involved in professional sports. From a quick search, I can see that Antwan Barnes makes 1.6 million a year. Yeah, a lot of people involved in olympic sports or in minor leagues or whatever don't make a whole lot. Neither do unpopular commentators
Average salary for college graduates is $46,000/year, I believe. Average NFL salary is what, close to a million, based on position? Factor in that the average is heavily skewed because of a few superstar players. Also consider that Football is a MUCH more dangerous job than your average job, requires years of training, tens of thousands of dollars in equipment, supplements, health, etc. and the average career length for a player in the NFL? 3.5 years. That's also without factoring in superstars like Brett Farve who was playing for 20 years. Most NFL players won't last two years, and won't be paid more than a couple hundred thousand for their years of work and training; and the likelihood is that they didn't graduate college, instead opting for the early draft. They are also likely to have sustained some kind of serious injury. Also recent studies have shown that NFL players are dying earlier and suffer more brain damage than your average person. Sounds like a great deal, huh?
You made the perfect point. Neither do UNPOPULAR commentators. It's a dog-eat-dog world, and popular commentators will always get money, whereas unpopular ones will not. But take heart. The scene is growing. Money is flowing in at a faster rate. It looks like sunny skies and clear roads ahead. As money grows, so will player financial security. After all, being in the NFL isn't that bad a deal.
I honestly feel like it's easy for people to get wrapped up in a discussion of is Day[9] or HuK worth more to a tournament.
The real area eSports will need to grow in as things hopefully continue to steadily grow is at the middle and bottom end of the spectrum. Only by growing in those areas will you be able to foster the best possible talent in the industry. Be it a player, caster, a ref, or the lighting guy....unless at bare minimum you can pay your bills in the pursuit of the top, you won't have a system in place that truly fosters the best possible talent.
Rather you will have a system that in place where the success or failure of the industry will bank on enough people being so passionate about it that it will continue to thrive and grow. Which essentially is what we have right now, were the majority of people known or not known to the community keep it all going simply out of their love for it and not because they can actually make a living off it.
I think that eSports is moving in the right direction though and hopefully as time progresses will reach a level that pursuing a career in it will be practical regardless of if you reach the top or not. As long as things head in that direction will have something that will have continued growth and be sustainable into the future. Rather then being a bubble that bursts when peoples passion alone is simply not enough to keep it growing.
There's a league that is on death's door right now, primarily because it doesn't have a-list casters on a regular basis. It has basically the same player pool that every other league has.
On December 01 2011 07:13 iNcontroL wrote: I am not arguing you are at fault for negotiating good terms.. I am arguing that people like Huk and other player "leaders" are in their right to argue that perhaps a lot of what the casters have been negotiated for themselves should find more middle ground with the players when it comes to tourneys.
The point is that what you make in "a market" is closely related to your replaceability. The fact of the matter is that there are very few super popular casters which makes them less replaceable. On the other hand, there are a lot more really good players that people want to watch play and that unfortunately makes individual players more replaceable. Having a tournament cast by lousy casters can ruin it much faster than not having a few of the very top players attend (*every* tournament has a few really top players missing - e.g. stephano, demuslim, socke were not in providence, and I bet hardly anyone noticed... they sure were never mentioned by the casters as missing, even though we had some diamond players in the tournament).
You yourself have spoken about players making a name for themselves (besides just quality of play), and that is exactly what I'm talking about. These casters have made huge names for themselves and are benefiting from it greatly.
Btw, I totally agree that players should be making more than casters (and a lot more), but the fact that it seems logical and "fair" really doesn't mean anything in "a market" (I'm sure everyone can think of hundreds of examples where pay rates are completely illogical). However, I also think that considering that SC2 eSports is just growing (tournaments are saying they are operating at a loss, and with all the money they're giving out, I'm inclined to believe them), I also think the pay distribution among the player base is way too much top-heavy.
An argument could be made that it would be more "fair" or better for the SC2 eSport to have more players that can afford a decent living with their play than having maybe 10 players and 5-6 casters getting a ton of money - but again, that doesn't matter, it's a market... The disparity in pay between the "best" western player (let's say Huk) and say the 200th player skill-wise (who is probably a Korean none of us have ever heard of) is literally infinite - and we can't fix that, and most of you guys wouldn't even want to .
On November 30 2011 08:18 Xanatoss wrote: I wish this Slasher Guy would do less things that cause so much annoying Drama.
His show actually covers a lot of ESPORTS news and has guests that generate excellent discussions. It's a shame that one easily misconstrued and ambiguous comment like this get people up in arms and blind them to the other content that comes out of his show. It's such an inane topic anyway.
The point is I really dont bother about Slashers ambitions but everytime I read his name its connected to either a very controversial discussion or plain stupid drama. And I get really tired of this.
It does not get better when your watching his show.
I don't know about the other games but his "general" opinions on how the Starcraft 2 scene and it's community should grow/evlolve seem "strange" (to not say they sound like made up by a 6 year old)
Oh yes, and when I said "a ton of money", I literally meant a ton of money. With all due respect to TotalBiscuit and all the casters who've had rough weekends, earning six figures either casting or playing is being insanely overpaid by the "fairness" argument. The money that's buying the MLG/GSL passes, airplane tickets, all the HotPockets, the computers/games/game-cards for these kids that tune in to the streams etc. and that is making this thing grow is being earned by real people, most of which work hard at jobs that are a lot less fun and are paid a lot worse. And I'm not saying you don't respect that, it's just that it's not something that will ever get fixed and that's exactly why most people never talk about salaries - it's pointless.
On December 02 2011 00:25 budar wrote: Oh yes, and when I said "a ton of money", I literally meant a ton of money. With all due respect to TotalBiscuit and all the casters who've had rough weekends, earning six figures either casting or playing is being insanely overpaid by the "fairness" argument. The money that's buying the MLG/GSL passes, airplane tickets, all the HotPockets, the computers/games/game-cards for these kids that tune in to the streams etc. and that is making this thing grow is being earned by real people, most of which work hard at jobs that are a lot less fun and are paid a lot worse. And I'm not saying you don't respect that, it's just that it's not something that will ever get fixed and that's exactly why most people never talk about salaries - it's pointless.
By "literally" you mean "figuratively," right? ^.^
TB has already posted in the thread to say he takes a loss on most/all casting gigs he goes to. Even if we simply focus on the better-off players and casters, I'm not sure what you're getting at with your post. Are you asserting that it isn't fair for them to make a lot of money, because their fans don't make a lot of money?
On December 01 2011 07:46 Nagano wrote: Players who cast are almost always better than exclusive casters. Why? Well, do I want Kasparov analyzing and commentating the chess match between Anand/Carlsen? OF COURSE! You need to be able to pick apart the details in the right and most enlightening way possible. You need someone on the cutting edge of gameplay with a deep breadth of knowledge that someone who casts exclusively (i.e. doesn't play professionally) cannot fulfill. Slasher is wrong and he's taking up the position of trying to save himself a job (that he clearly needs work on).
Kasparov is retired. And chess needs no color commentating for the initiated. Chess lacks the eye to layman. Additionally, every player must play both black and white pieces. Still, Kasparov would do a slightly worse job than Adams or Timman when commentating the Pirc...see the parallel here? It's like a better form of HuK commentating a ZvZ.
I have to say that for Starcraft to grow, laymen must be attracted on some degree. I can turn off baseball commentary and enjoy the game by learning from the pros, while I absolutely cannot bear a NFL game muted. I'm sure the same goes for a lot of the silver, gold, even platinum players watching tourneys. Here at TL, posters generally have better understanding of the game then the median of active Starcraft 2 players. It is dangerous, in terms of outreach, to suggest we could get by with only technical analysis. If that is done, then it is a possibility that Starcraft would turn into an Olympic sport, high-level, impressive, but never heard by the masses.
On December 01 2011 13:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: To me is just seems like Slasher being Slasher TBH.
I do believe that constantly looking forward to making e-sports more professional is silly, starcraft is it's own thing, and it is special. We shouldn't conform to things like baseball which are completely different. E-sports has something special that nothing else in the world has, and we shouldn't try and change that.
The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago
Keep telling yourself that...SC2 is a legitimate spectator sport because of two things alone. KeSPA creating the modern BW pro-scene, and Blizzard making a competitive successor to BW. The SC2 scene now is where BW was in like 2002, and light-years ahead of CS/Quake/Unreal/Halo at any time in the past 10 years. BW is the only surviving game from the first WCG, to be replaced this year by SC2. Every sign points to SC2 not being just like every other esport game, but being like BW - in other words, far-and-above the rest.
You might be able to get away with statements like that elsewhere, but not here. A lot of the old hands from the foreign BW scene are too kind to say these things themselves, because they have to get along with all the new carpetbaggers. But just remember, before Day9 was a SC2 casting superstar, he was the guy who wrote this:
He's earned his place in the Starcraft community, as have have a few others. We all know who they are. The rest...well, frankly I don't give a damn about them. I don't care about e-sports, I care about starcraft. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but don't be surprised when you find that the Starcraft viewer doesn't care about Team X or Y (ninja edit: TL excepted, of course), they care about the players, or when your viewer numbers take a nose-dive because you've hired your shiny know-nothing "professional e-sports casters" rather than Starcraft casters who command respect in the Starcraft community.
Pro-SC2 comes from Korean pro-BW. SC2 will continue to evolve, but for now, its a different community, different rules.
Did you actually read what I wrote? I said straight up that SC2 is more of an esport today (and a fact.... because of a lot of things.. mostly being social media) then previous games (Quake, CS, etc..).
The game itself is not the only reason it is where it is today. It is not a 'special' game that somehow is more of an esport then Quake.. it is simply a great game in a much better time and the community is doing so much to help it's greatness. Yes.. the game is great.. but I would put money on it that if it were not for Blizzard, streaming, social media, community activity and the saturation of competition available.. it would not be where it is today.
On December 02 2011 00:25 budar wrote: Oh yes, and when I said "a ton of money", I literally meant a ton of money. With all due respect to TotalBiscuit and all the casters who've had rough weekends, earning six figures either casting or playing is being insanely overpaid by the "fairness" argument. The money that's buying the MLG/GSL passes, airplane tickets, all the HotPockets, the computers/games/game-cards for these kids that tune in to the streams etc. and that is making this thing grow is being earned by real people, most of which work hard at jobs that are a lot less fun and are paid a lot worse. And I'm not saying you don't respect that, it's just that it's not something that will ever get fixed and that's exactly why most people never talk about salaries - it's pointless.
By "literally" you mean "figuratively," right? ^.^
TB has already posted in the thread to say he takes a loss on most/all casting gigs he goes to. Even if we simply focus on the better-off players and casters, I'm not sure what you're getting at with your post. Are you asserting that it isn't fair for them to make a lot of money, because their fans don't make a lot of money?
Well, I really mean "a ton of money" in the figurative sense ^^. Anyway, I'm getting at the fact that it's pointless to discuss salaries based on what is "fair" and what is not because that won't change those salaries. The post you quoted was just another example and like an "add-on" to the wall-of-text post I made a few posts back. The distribution of money is not fair not only between casters and players but also within the player base and pretty much everywhere - that's the jist of it.
On December 01 2011 13:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: To me is just seems like Slasher being Slasher TBH.
I do believe that constantly looking forward to making e-sports more professional is silly, starcraft is it's own thing, and it is special. We shouldn't conform to things like baseball which are completely different. E-sports has something special that nothing else in the world has, and we shouldn't try and change that.
The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago
Keep telling yourself that...SC2 is a legitimate spectator sport because of two things alone. KeSPA creating the modern BW pro-scene, and Blizzard making a competitive successor to BW. The SC2 scene now is where BW was in like 2002, and light-years ahead of CS/Quake/Unreal/Halo at any time in the past 10 years. BW is the only surviving game from the first WCG, to be replaced this year by SC2. Every sign points to SC2 not being just like every other esport game, but being like BW - in other words, far-and-above the rest.
You might be able to get away with statements like that elsewhere, but not here. A lot of the old hands from the foreign BW scene are too kind to say these things themselves, because they have to get along with all the new carpetbaggers. But just remember, before Day9 was a SC2 casting superstar, he was the guy who wrote this:
He's earned his place in the Starcraft community, as have have a few others. We all know who they are. The rest...well, frankly I don't give a damn about them. I don't care about e-sports, I care about starcraft. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but don't be surprised when you find that the Starcraft viewer doesn't care about Team X or Y (ninja edit: TL excepted, of course), they care about the players, or when your viewer numbers take a nose-dive because you've hired your shiny know-nothing "professional e-sports casters" rather than Starcraft casters who command respect in the Starcraft community.
Pro-SC2 comes from Korean pro-BW. SC2 will continue to evolve, but for now, its a different community, different rules.
Did you actually read what I wrote? I said straight up that SC2 is more of an esport today (and a fact.... because of a lot of things.. mostly being social media) then previous games (Quake, CS, etc..).
The game itself is not the only reason it is where it is today. It is not a 'special' game that somehow is more of an esport then Quake.. it is simply a great game in a much better time and the community is doing so much to help it's greatness. Yes.. the game is great.. but I would put money on it that if it were not for Blizzard, streaming, social media, community activity and the saturation of competition available.. it would not be where it is today.
Why are you even bringing up Quake and other games in this thread? Of course Sc2 without Blizzard, streaming, social media, community activity and the saturation of competition available wouldn't be where it is today. You've basically said this thing without any human interaction is exactly the same as Quake or CS or w/e other game.
On December 01 2011 13:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: To me is just seems like Slasher being Slasher TBH.
I do believe that constantly looking forward to making e-sports more professional is silly, starcraft is it's own thing, and it is special. We shouldn't conform to things like baseball which are completely different. E-sports has something special that nothing else in the world has, and we shouldn't try and change that.
The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago
Keep telling yourself that...SC2 is a legitimate spectator sport because of two things alone. KeSPA creating the modern BW pro-scene, and Blizzard making a competitive successor to BW. The SC2 scene now is where BW was in like 2002, and light-years ahead of CS/Quake/Unreal/Halo at any time in the past 10 years. BW is the only surviving game from the first WCG, to be replaced this year by SC2. Every sign points to SC2 not being just like every other esport game, but being like BW - in other words, far-and-above the rest.
You might be able to get away with statements like that elsewhere, but not here. A lot of the old hands from the foreign BW scene are too kind to say these things themselves, because they have to get along with all the new carpetbaggers. But just remember, before Day9 was a SC2 casting superstar, he was the guy who wrote this:
He's earned his place in the Starcraft community, as have have a few others. We all know who they are. The rest...well, frankly I don't give a damn about them. I don't care about e-sports, I care about starcraft. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but don't be surprised when you find that the Starcraft viewer doesn't care about Team X or Y (ninja edit: TL excepted, of course), they care about the players, or when your viewer numbers take a nose-dive because you've hired your shiny know-nothing "professional e-sports casters" rather than Starcraft casters who command respect in the Starcraft community.
Pro-SC2 comes from Korean pro-BW. SC2 will continue to evolve, but for now, its a different community, different rules.
Did you actually read what I wrote? I said straight up that SC2 is more of an esport today (and a fact.... because of a lot of things.. mostly being social media) then previous games (Quake, CS, etc..).
The game itself is not the only reason it is where it is today. It is not a 'special' game that somehow is more of an esport then Quake.. it is simply a great game in a much better time and the community is doing so much to help it's greatness. Yes.. the game is great.. but I would put money on it that if it were not for Blizzard, streaming, social media, community activity and the saturation of competition available.. it would not be where it is today.
Did you read what you wrote? You said that SC2 isn't special. I say that it is. You say SC2 is "just like" other esports games, 10 years ago. I say that SC2 has nothing to do with other esports games, it has everything to do with BW.
Where SC2 is today has very little to do with your precious social media. If that mattered, than the other "e-sports!" games would benefit as well. As I said, the pro-SC2 scene is far larger than any other game for two reasons alone. BW in Korea, and Blizzard's constant support for competitive multiplayer. If your reply doesn't acknowledge the role of KeSPA, BW, and Korea, than you truly have no clue about why SC2 is what it is today.
This is where SC2 comes from. I guarantee that Day9, Tasteless, and Artosis know exactly who these people are. Gretorp, Idra, TLO, Sen, Puma, Nestea, MVP, MMA ... they all know. What about slasher? Hmm..?
But keep telling yourself SC2 is nothing special, and just like other esports 10 years ago. Keep twittering and facebooking. I'm sure that's the key.
Ironic how anyone can talk about the professionalism of Esports in a Jersey Shoreesque drama show...
Casters get a chance to show their personality. Therefore people grow attached to them. Players don't often get that luxury.
Great casters are rare and usually interesting people. Good speech is an important skill in all facets of life. SC2 players are a dime a dozen. However, the great ones get plenty of recognition.
It's easy to tell that Huk wouldn't last an hour casting on an MLG stage. Just look at how he types on twitter.
On December 01 2011 13:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: To me is just seems like Slasher being Slasher TBH.
I do believe that constantly looking forward to making e-sports more professional is silly, starcraft is it's own thing, and it is special. We shouldn't conform to things like baseball which are completely different. E-sports has something special that nothing else in the world has, and we shouldn't try and change that.
The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago
Keep telling yourself that...SC2 is a legitimate spectator sport because of two things alone. KeSPA creating the modern BW pro-scene, and Blizzard making a competitive successor to BW. The SC2 scene now is where BW was in like 2002, and light-years ahead of CS/Quake/Unreal/Halo at any time in the past 10 years. BW is the only surviving game from the first WCG, to be replaced this year by SC2. Every sign points to SC2 not being just like every other esport game, but being like BW - in other words, far-and-above the rest.
You might be able to get away with statements like that elsewhere, but not here. A lot of the old hands from the foreign BW scene are too kind to say these things themselves, because they have to get along with all the new carpetbaggers. But just remember, before Day9 was a SC2 casting superstar, he was the guy who wrote this:
He's earned his place in the Starcraft community, as have have a few others. We all know who they are. The rest...well, frankly I don't give a damn about them. I don't care about e-sports, I care about starcraft. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but don't be surprised when you find that the Starcraft viewer doesn't care about Team X or Y (ninja edit: TL excepted, of course), they care about the players, or when your viewer numbers take a nose-dive because you've hired your shiny know-nothing "professional e-sports casters" rather than Starcraft casters who command respect in the Starcraft community.
Pro-SC2 comes from Korean pro-BW. SC2 will continue to evolve, but for now, its a different community, different rules.
Did you actually read what I wrote? I said straight up that SC2 is more of an esport today (and a fact.... because of a lot of things.. mostly being social media) then previous games (Quake, CS, etc..).
The game itself is not the only reason it is where it is today. It is not a 'special' game that somehow is more of an esport then Quake.. it is simply a great game in a much better time and the community is doing so much to help it's greatness. Yes.. the game is great.. but I would put money on it that if it were not for Blizzard, streaming, social media, community activity and the saturation of competition available.. it would not be where it is today.
Did you read what you wrote? You said that SC2 isn't special. I say that it is. You say SC2 is "just like" other esports games, 10 years ago. I say that SC2 has nothing to do with other esports games, it has everything to do with BW.
Where SC2 is today has very little to do with your precious social media. If that mattered, than the other "e-sports!" games would benefit as well. As I said, the pro-SC2 scene is far larger than any other game for two reasons alone. BW in Korea, and Blizzard's constant support for competitive multiplayer. If your reply doesn't acknowledge the role of KeSPA, BW, and Korea, than you truly have no clue about why SC2 is what it is today.
This is where SC2 comes from. I guarantee that Day9, Tasteless, and Artosis know exactly who these people are. Gretorp, Idra, TLO, Sen, Puma, Nestea, MVP, MMA ... they all know. What about slasher? Hmm..?
But keep telling yourself SC2 is nothing special, and just like other esports 10 years ago. Keep twittering and facebooking. I'm sure that's the key.
That video...... Boxer, Reach, Oov.......... nerd chills
wow.. you did not understand anything i said. SC2 is not 'special'..The community is special. You completely missed what I was saying. SC2 is great for esports and again.. It is way ahead of where other games of the past were.. but for you to assume that it's only because of 2 things.. is just asinine. I would venture to say that Day9 has more to do with the 'continued' success of SC2 then even Blizzard.
QXC made a great caster. Casters need to be likeable. Players don't need to be.
Someone like Idra might have a "high level of strategic understanding" but it's not that much higher than Day9s, if at all, and Day9 is infinitely more likeable. I'd argue Day9, Artosis, Tasteless and yes, even TotalBiscuit, have done more for the Starcraft community than HuK and half the pro community combined. Why?
They've made it accessible.
Players don't do that. They're too busy being players. You can't run a daily web show like the Day9 Daily or like TB's Shoutcasting and be a pro player. There isn't enough time in the day.
On December 02 2011 03:56 csn_JohnClark wrote: wow.. you did not understand anything i said. SC2 is not 'special'..The community is special. You completely missed what I was saying. SC2 is great for esports and again.. It is way ahead of where other games of the past were.. but for you to assume that it's only because of 2 things.. is just asinine. I would venture to say that Day9 has more to do with the 'continued' success of SC2 then even Blizzard.
You need to acknowledge that Starcraft has something your other games do not. Why else does Sc2 have a special community? Pure luck? Coincidence?
Would Day9 do 200 or 300, however many, dailies on a shitty game?
On December 02 2011 03:56 csn_JohnClark wrote: wow.. you did not understand anything i said. SC2 is not 'special'..The community is special. You completely missed what I was saying. SC2 is great for esports and again.. It is way ahead of where other games of the past were.. but for you to assume that it's only because of 2 things.. is just asinine. I would venture to say that Day9 has more to do with the 'continued' success of SC2 then even Blizzard.
I'm trying to decide if that noise I hear is you moving the goal posts, or you sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalala". I think you need to be reminded of what exactly it is you said.
On December 01 2011 14:02 csn_JohnClark wrote: The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago
Everything I wrote was a direct refutation of this assertion. As I wrote, and you refused to read:
On December 02 2011 03:39 YMCApylons wrote: You said that SC2 isn't special. I say that it is. You say SC2 is "just like" other esports games, 10 years ago. I say that SC2 has nothing to do with other esports games, it has everything to do with BW.
Where SC2 is today has very little to do with your precious social media. If that mattered, than the other "e-sports!" games would benefit as well. As I said, the pro-SC2 scene is far larger than any other game for two reasons alone. BW in Korea, and Blizzard's constant support for competitive multiplayer. If your reply doesn't acknowledge the role of KeSPA, BW, and Korea, than you truly have no clue about why SC2 is what it is today.
Oh, and "I would venture to say that Day9 has more to do with the 'continued' success of SC2 then even Blizzard"? Had that covered too.
On December 01 2011 15:12 YMCApylons wrote: But just remember, before Day9 was a SC2 casting superstar, he was the guy who wrote this:
Because I know you won't acknowledge this, let me spell it out for any readers of this thread. That link is to an article that Day9 wrote, describing, in detail, a new style of Terran Mech opening by Fantasy, the Korean BW progamer, in 2008, before SC2 was any more than a few fan-trailers.
And yes, the community is special. But not because of some social media "e-sports!" bullshit. But because of people like Day9, who (guess what?) were created and cultivated by Korean pro-BW, and the foreign BW flag-bearer, TL. Blizzard support and Korean pro-BW. Yes, really, it is only those two things. Everything else is window-dressing. Some are useful, some are nice to have, some are frankly annoying, but all are unnecessary.
I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it.
Oh, and the reason casters get paid a huge amount compared to players is that casters are what actually make the event run. They don't sit in the background practicing. They fill dead time, they run analysis on every match up, they take player feedback, run admin duties, observe, and talk for upwards of eight to nine hours at a time, sometimes with only the most minimal of breaks. When they aren't doing that they're interacting with the hundreds to thousands of people that are there, and entertaining those people.
It is not all about analysis or having an amazing game sense or any one of the hundreds of cliches people pour out. HSC was a great event, but it also had times when it was painfully boring and irritating, when it was awkward (the constant ribbing of Nightend was frankly annoying as fuck), and many of those players were frankly boring. It was also in someone's house, had a constant rotation of pros who could retreat to a poker table and drink beer playing one game at a time, and there weren't 6,000 people sat in pews on the side of an arena to entertain.
They're paid more because they have a harder job. If you want paying more, that's for your sponsors to deal with. There's money in esports. It's those people who are getting paid 20k to do these events who are responsible for there being money at all, I'm afraid.
Just basic economics. Money goes where the star power is. In some sports, its with the players. With e-sports, its with the casters right now.
by comparison, casters are stable, and players are not. i think this is expected as player is a *highly competitive profession. top players compete directly w/ other players. the same does not happen for casters. maybe 1 reason players are not as stable despite constant competition is that they don't get paid enough on the whole, but it seems like that's an issue with their team/sponsors and not with other professions in the esports industry.
I would like to see 3 casters with one being a top level player. SC2 is less mechanical and more meta than BW. Whenever Idra has been a caster he comments clearly on how a player responds to what he says and how that decision will go before it happens. The main reason I watch these tournaments and events is to learn what is currently working in the game. Homestory cup is my favorite to watch because it shows the players interacting and commenting.
On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote: I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it.
I've never heard a caster as biased as Artosis is toward zerg n Nestea.
On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote: I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it.
I've never heard a caster as biased as Artosis is toward zerg n Nestea.
I think he out does Mr. Bitter quite easily.
To be fair, a lot of it is just joking around: he knows that he is biased and kind of does it in an ironic way. You can tell that it's not the sort of bias that MrBitter has - it is conscious and often very deliberate.
Whether you like it or not is a completely different matter: I personally am tired of the Nestea jokes and think Tastosis should move on to another running joke, but then jokes are subjective, and Artosis' bias is a bit special in how it works with Nestea.
On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote: I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it.
I've never heard a caster as biased as Artosis is toward zerg n Nestea.
I think he out does Mr. Bitter quite easily.
Well, Artosis loves Nestea, but who doesn't? I know a lot of people don't like how Artosis hypes players but I honestly think its kinda funny and pretty harmless, I don't think it makes him really come across as unprofessional. He generally gives credit where credit is due.
Bitter does love Zergs. he could work on being less biased. But its not that weird to love idra. he's good.
In a free market you're paid what you're worth, I don't see the problem? Obviously places think Day9 is worth a truck load of cash or they wouldn't pay it... who are you to decide, you're not paying it, they are and have made their free choice.
It's laughable some are comparing unionized team sports to esports. They, as a collective, hold whole leagues hostage unless they agree to terms. I'm not sure esports players have that leverage nor are they organized ATM so it's irrelevant.
A better compaison is most boxers except the huge ones PBF, ODL, etc, make nothing. There are title holders right now that never made more than $1000 a fight because all they can get is HBO and showtime late at night to see them fight.
On December 02 2011 05:32 Evangelist wrote: Oh, and the reason casters get paid a huge amount compared to players is that casters are what actually make the event run. They don't sit in the background practicing. They fill dead time, they run analysis on every match up, they take player feedback, run admin duties, observe, and talk for upwards of eight to nine hours at a time, sometimes with only the most minimal of breaks. When they aren't doing that they're interacting with the hundreds to thousands of people that are there, and entertaining those people.
It is not all about analysis or having an amazing game sense or any one of the hundreds of cliches people pour out. HSC was a great event, but it also had times when it was painfully boring and irritating, when it was awkward (the constant ribbing of Nightend was frankly annoying as fuck), and many of those players were frankly boring. It was also in someone's house, had a constant rotation of pros who could retreat to a poker table and drink beer playing one game at a time, and there weren't 6,000 people sat in pews on the side of an arena to entertain.
They're paid more because they have a harder job. If you want paying more, that's for your sponsors to deal with. There's money in esports. It's those people who are getting paid 20k to do these events who are responsible for there being money at all, I'm afraid.
Just basic economics. Money goes where the star power is. In some sports, its with the players. With e-sports, its with the casters right now.
Difficultly of job has zero to do with what u r paid. Often times those who work the hardest are paid the least (see ditch diggers). It's all about what you can extract in economic rents. Look it up. But basiclly almost anyone that can fog a mirror can dig a ditch and almost no one can cast like Day9.
This isn't about what you think something is worth. It's about what the economic structure of the position is.
HuK wrote: @Slasher well ur comments were pretty ignorant as usual. if players were smart tho most would transition to casters; its a better job
An ignorant statement to combat Slashers supposed ignorant statement. I see we've come round full circle.
The point is players get paid to play, not to cast. For Starcraft 2 to succeed outside of Korea it needs to establish a foundation. One where players play, casters cast, journalist journal, cameramen camera.
I believe that top tier players have the analytical skills to cast, and some even the personality to back it. However, as long as they are paid to play professionally, or even compete in tournaments including prize money, they shouldn't be casting.
Huk, and any other of the agreeing players who think they should be able to cast should look towards Korea. There is a chain of command. One that is much more developed, and has had the time to do so. Plenty of Brood War professional's retired, and when they did they were left with an option. Walk away from esports, become a coach, cast, etc, etc etc etc. Pro league has been casted by retired professionals, the same way baseball is casted by retired players.
It seems Huk lost his humility after leaving liquid, because I remember an incident where Huk handled himself immaturely and Nazgul quarter backed the pr. But after that Huk was as humble as Jesus himself.
It seems Huk is hungry for either an argument or a spotlight making left field statements like this.
The bottom line is a hierarchy, a system of some sort needs to be established. People can't just do whatever they want.
I am determined to become a analytical caster. And couple of pro-gamers will help me... hopefully I do become one. If you guys are wondering what the hell I am on about, you could check my post in SC2 General thread.
I personally think that analytical commentaries will make players are not better to think like pro-gamers to act like pro-gamers. And that is what I will try to do. I also wrote a very controversial thread (which is outdated now) about 1/1/1 if you guys remember. I hope I really can connect Korean community with non-Korean community. A video is coming soon : )
On December 04 2011 02:21 CryingPoo wrote: I am determined to become a analytical caster. And couple of pro-gamers will help me... hopefully I do become one. If you guys are wondering what the hell I am on about, you could check my post in SC2 General thread.
I personally think that analytical commentaries will make players are not better to think like pro-gamers to act like pro-gamers. And that is what I will try to do. I also wrote a very controversial thread (which is outdated now) about 1/1/1 if you guys remember. I hope I really can connect Korean community with non-Korean community. A video is coming soon : )
On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote: I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it.
Yup, it's funny because its true. If anyone's seen Home Story Cup or when the players stepped it up for Dream Hack, they would know that a lot of the players aren't biased at all when they cast. For me it was a welcome relief!
On December 04 2011 02:14 inamorato wrote: HuK wrote: @Slasher well ur comments were pretty ignorant as usual. if players were smart tho most would transition to casters; its a better job
An ignorant statement to combat Slashers supposed ignorant statement. I see we've come round full circle.
The point is players get paid to play, not to cast. For Starcraft 2 to succeed outside of Korea it needs to establish a foundation. One where players play, casters cast, journalist journal, cameramen camera.
I believe that top tier players have the analytical skills to cast, and some even the personality to back it. However, as long as they are paid to play professionally, or even compete in tournaments including prize money, they shouldn't be casting.
Huk, and any other of the agreeing players who think they should be able to cast should look towards Korea. There is a chain of command. One that is much more developed, and has had the time to do so. Plenty of Brood War professional's retired, and when they did they were left with an option. Walk away from esports, become a coach, cast, etc, etc etc etc. Pro league has been casted by retired professionals, the same way baseball is casted by retired players. It seems Huk lost his humility after leaving liquid, because I remember an incident where Huk handled himself immaturely and Nazgul quarter backed the pr. But after that Huk was as humble as Jesus himself.
It seems Huk is hungry for either an argument or a spotlight making left field statements like this.
The bottom line is a hierarchy, a system of some sort needs to be established. People can't just do whatever they want.
The field is still open; as of now, (I believe) there are more people who want to be paid players rather than paid casters--if the pool of individuals trying to make it as casters grew as larger as the pool of semi-pro players, I doubt they'd be making any more money. I think as the years go on, it will eventually balance out. As it is, this is the beginning of a new market, new area, and no one is sure where the money will be.
You can't be a pro-player if you don't understand the game thoroughly and you are not skilled.
You can't be a caster if you don't have charisma, if you don't understand the game thoroughly and you are not skilled to a certain extand.
In the end, casting is not HARDER as a job. You don't need to practice like a pro-player, you have a garanted salary, no need to care about win and price pool, etc...
BUT! Most of viewers (those that are not players, but just viewers. That are following the scene just for fun.) are brought to the scene by casters, not by players. A caster cast more game than a player will play casted game in a tournament. The scene need way less casters than it needs players... but the scene need only the TOP casters. Those that are known, that will bring people.
And it's easier to have the spotlight for a caster, than it is for a player. It's sad, but that's it and it will always be it. There is no point in arguing about that.
Yes, being a player is probably harder... Yes, casters will be paid a lot more. There is nothing that we can do about it. We can't just cut their pay. If they are paid that much, it's because events need them that much.
Yes, some casters are not as good as Tasteless, Artosis and Day9... the same way than not every players are as good as Nestea and MVP.
And, if any players is angry at this and feel like it's unfair... that they should be casting instead... then : Try it. I'm sure that you will be surprised how actually hard and how cruel the community is toward most of them, and how you can't just go in front of a scene, cross fingers, and become a good caster.
I'm sure that most players that would leave the pro-gaming aspect of their career just to make more money as a caster, would fail miserably. There is not that much need for casters right now, and they are just too good to be replaced that easily by any pro-gamer.
HuK can't be more wrong, saying that if player would be smart, they would be casting. Most of them CAN'T cast, they just don't have the charisma and speech skills for that. HuK don't even have it himself. Doctor saving life should not be paid less than big actors, but sadly, they always will, simply because people need and will pay the big price to be entertained... and it's not anyone that can deliver that. Caster are not there to "analyse" or whatever. They are there to entertain, nothing else. No one that care enough and know enough of the game need a caster to tell them what is going on anyway. They know by just looking at the game.
Pro gamers complaining about being paid less than casters?
The current casters do a lot more work and put themselves out there much more often. They do not just sit there and practice for hours on end in the hidden gaming scene. They are what we would call Celebrities in the eSports world.
If you want to be equal with them and praised do something about it.
Make a show, stream more and don't just listen to random korean music. Interact with your fans and promote yourself. If you want to be paid more be worth more.
On December 17 2011 04:51 Shaok wrote: Pro gamers complaining about being paid less than casters?
The current casters do a lot more work and put themselves out there much more often. They do not just sit there and practice for hours on end in the hidden gaming scene. They are what we would call Celebrities in the eSports world.
If you want to be equal with them and praised do something about it.
Make a show, stream more and don't just listen to random korean music. Interact with your fans and promote yourself. If you want to be paid more be worth more.
But this is exactly the core problem. Players should dedicate themselves to training and strengthening their game, at least in my opinion.
They should have some sort of school for progamers that aids the transition of adolescence to adulthood. They shouldn't be let off their leashes until they graduate.
Players themselves do not sell viewership, casters do. Of course they're going to be paid more.
Any time that you have a hobby/sport/interest where the barrier to entry (ie: understanding what is happening at the professional level) is high, the gateway (ie: caster) is going to be a lot more recognized than the players themselves - the caster is what allows the player to interface with what's happening on screen. Being a good caster is more scarce than being a good player, and that translates directly to caster salaries.
Add to that that casters have a greater chance to plug themselves, have personality, and sell their person and not just their trade, and they become that much more secure in the scene.
When I watch hockey, I don't need the commentators to explain to me what's happening for me to enjoy the game. I also don't see the casters, interact with the casters, or listen to the same one for 8 hours a day 3 days straight.
What people need to remember is that the highest skill tier of players for StarCraft do not speak much english, so it isn't likely that they will cast.
The BW scene outside of Korea was not nearly large enough to give us a huge pool of potential retired pro>casters. The best there was to choose from, for the most part, are the top casters of the day (day9 or artosis for example)
LoL @ Slasher. I have to disagree with tasteless being an analytical caster. He pretty much only repeats what his co-caster says and is more of a play by play. Tasteless doesn't really provide in-depth insight on a players gameplay/decision making like those other analytical casters listed, i.e Artosis, Day9 etc.
I'd also like to mention that these games being casted are about the players, not the casters. If it weren't for such good talent, there wouldn't be shit to cast worth watching. Players are being completely undervalued imo. No one wants to watch a bunch of scrubs being cast by artosis. or Day9, or whoever. Its just not very entertaining. Players need to make way more than casters.
I think Players are always going to have a better idea of what is going on than Casters, but that doesn't mean that casters can't do the job.
I think the best example is Dj Wheat. He is an entertaining caster who doesn't CLAIM to know it all. He does the play by play, analyzes the strategy as best as he can, and asks Day9/whoever he's casting with what he thinks instead of doing bold claims. I think that's very important. I don't mind play by play casters who don't know exactly the current metagame, they know the game enough to see what's going on and understand situations short term, and for the long term they ask the pro. That's FINE. However, I ABSOLUTELY HATE when casters make bold claims and obviously have no idea wtf they are talking about. Sorry to point out people, but Moletrap, Kaldor, Kelly are examples that immediately come to mind.
Basically, if you are a caster or a pro, you need to know your place.
On December 17 2011 04:51 Shaok wrote: Pro gamers complaining about being paid less than casters?
The current casters do a lot more work and put themselves out there much more often. They do not just sit there and practice for hours on end in the hidden gaming scene. They are what we would call Celebrities in the eSports world.
If you want to be equal with them and praised do something about it.
Make a show, stream more and don't just listen to random korean music. Interact with your fans and promote yourself. If you want to be paid more be worth more.
Perhaps pro-gamers don't all complain out loud, but did you actually just compare the job of a caster to the lifestyle of a pro-gamer? Or did I misunderstand you? The pro-gamer's job is far harder than the caster's, and nearly all of both groups have already defended that discussion (including recent interviews with people who have done both jobs, such as Orb).
On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote: I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it.
Yup, it's funny because its true. If anyone's seen Home Story Cup or when the players stepped it up for Dream Hack, they would know that a lot of the players aren't biased at all when they cast. For me it was a welcome relief!
I agree with you too. Even players who occasionally balance whine (like IdrA) go straight into analytical mode without discussing balance at all during the cast. I love hearing IdrA commentate, as his knowledge is top notch, and I hardly ever hear the stereotypical imba-talk of his player-self.
As Apollo said, the players have the knowledge, but few have the art of speech down as well as Artosis, Tasteless, Apollo, Day9 etc. I guess what Slasher means is that commentating should not be a problem for players practicewise, like it was with iNcontroL and Season 1 of NASL for example. That players switch over to commentating full time is not a problem if they are good at what they do.
On December 17 2011 10:10 Steel wrote: I think Players are always going to have a better idea of what is going on than Casters, but that doesn't mean that casters can't do the job.
I think the best example is Dj Wheat. He is an entertaining caster who doesn't CLAIM to know it all. He does the play by play, analyzes the strategy as best as he can, and asks Day9/whoever he's casting with what he thinks instead of doing bold claims. I think that's very important. I don't mind play by play casters who don't know exactly the current metagame, they know the game enough to see what's going on and understand situations short term, and for the long term they ask the pro. That's FINE. However, I ABSOLUTELY HATE when casters make bold claims and obviously have no idea wtf they are talking about. Sorry to point out people, but Moletrap, Kaldor, Kelly are examples that immediately come to mind.
Basically, if you are a caster or a pro, you need to know your place.
Yeah i gotta agree that Dj Wheat is a good combination of both. As far as being a caster/pro and knowing your place.....Players are what make this industry. Casters may have help build it, but its about the players. Players need to be compensated well.
On December 17 2011 04:51 Shaok wrote: Pro gamers complaining about being paid less than casters?
The current casters do a lot more work and put themselves out there much more often. They do not just sit there and practice for hours on end in the hidden gaming scene. They are what we would call Celebrities in the eSports world.
If you want to be equal with them and praised do something about it.
Make a show, stream more and don't just listen to random korean music. Interact with your fans and promote yourself. If you want to be paid more be worth more.
Perhaps pro-gamers don't all complain out loud, but did you actually just compare the job of a caster to the lifestyle of a pro-gamer? Or did I misunderstand you? The pro-gamer's job is far harder than the caster's, and nearly all of both groups have already defended that discussion (including recent interviews with people who have done both jobs, such as Orb).
On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote: I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it.
Yup, it's funny because its true. If anyone's seen Home Story Cup or when the players stepped it up for Dream Hack, they would know that a lot of the players aren't biased at all when they cast. For me it was a welcome relief!
I agree with you too. Even players who occasionally balance whine (like IdrA) go straight into analytical mode without discussing balance at all during the cast. I love hearing IdrA commentate, as his knowledge is top notch, and I hardly ever hear the stereotypical imba-talk of his player-self.
On December 17 2011 09:59 ReachTheSky wrote: LoL @ Slasher. I have to disagree with tasteless being an analytical caster. He pretty much only repeats what his co-caster says and is more of a play by play. Tasteless doesn't really provide in-depth insight on a players gameplay/decision making like those other analytical casters listed, i.e Artosis, Day9 etc.
I'd also like to mention that these games being casted are about the players, not the casters. If it weren't for such good talent, there wouldn't be shit to cast worth watching. Players are being completely undervalued imo. No one wants to watch a bunch of scrubs being cast by artosis. or Day9, or whoever. Its just not very entertaining. Players need to make way more than casters.
Look for instances where Tasteless solo-casts. He's quite analytical. When he casts with Artosis, he plays a different role, the Ed Sullivan role.
Also, there's plenty of evidence that thousands of people will watch Day9 casts scrubs or no-names - AHGL, monobattles, Funday Monday, etc. There's also plenty of high-level casted games that very few people watch because they don't know or like the caster.
A really top player, either through skill or personality, will make more than the top casters through winnings (Korean tourney winners) or salary (Idra, Huk, Naniwa, etc.) or some combination thereof. The rest of the players? Honestly, from an economic standpoint, they're all interchangeable, and there's a substantial supply of them. Recognizable casters? There's what, a dozen of them, and any live event needs 4-6 of them? They're not any better at their job, nor is it more difficult than being a player, there are just fewer of them.
And the vast majority of viewers can't distinguish between a close game with crap players and a close game with great players - there's still plenty of entertainment value, on which a good caster can capitalize.
I'm with Huk on this one. Players by default will always know more than casters, and although they may lack the charisma of some of the current casters, they will, speaking from a purely analytic perspective, know more about the game.
I like the casters that we have right now. If Husky, Artosis, Day9, Tasteless, TB, etc casted for the duration of the Starcraft 2 franchise I would be happy.
People are looking at 'player-casting' with rose-tinted goggles as there are not enough players casting right now. Once more and more players start transitioning to casting, people will start finding flaws in what they say, start nitpicking on small errors or speech quirks, and magnifying any erroneous analysis they make. You just need to look at Gretorp and Incontrol in NASL Season1 to see this (in before someone rags on Gretorp).
Yes, there will be occasional pro-gamer who would have the charisma and speaking skills to become a successful and re-known caster (cue Day9, Artosis, etc) but for the most, player casters would be unable to justice to a casting job. Homestory Cup player casting looks good because players cast 1 or 2 games in an informal manner, and that is the only time they have to cast.
Can't wait to watch Rotterdam play in a good tournament, bestplayereu!
Well don't really agree with people that say tastless isnt analystical, got really surprised when he casted Code A with KellyM and some other guy he did really good analyzes.
On January 04 2012 21:46 Tomken wrote: Can't wait to watch Rotterdam play in a good tournament, bestplayereu!
Well don't really agree with people that say tastless isnt analystical, got really surprised when he casted Code A with KellyM and some other guy he did really good analyzes.
He has good analysis. Just like Artosis also has good play-by-play. However as "tastosis" Artosis takes the analysis role while Tasteless does play-by-play. Along with Day9 they are the 3 most "complete" casters out there. Watch almost any "event boradcast" and you will notice one person doing a "play-by-play" while another (or several) do analysis/color commentary.
I think as SC2 "settles down" (I don't mean becomes 'less popular') we'll see more players become casters.
You can't be a caster and a player professionally at the same time. Time constraints don't allow it, as quite prominent people in this community have shown.
Will we see professional players transition into casting? Sure. They'll be just as good/bad at it as our current casters, most of whom were players at some point also.
(Huk mentioning casters being overpaid is kinda funny tho.)
(Huk mentioning casters being overpaid is kinda funny tho.)
It's funny because it is true. :/
This isn't entirely true It makes us casters in general look bad!
Frankly I am curious. How much are casters paid? And how does this compare to a player who has consistently say, stayed in code S.
they are paid 100 thousand ESPORTS dollars, players are often paid 1 million ESPORTS dollars. This causes a little turmoil between players who think they should be paid 1.1 million ESPORTS dollars and casters.
I think the current caster lineup we have now is really great. They are doing a great job and if they make alot of money, good for them, they deserve it. Players have to win to get paid, casters dont. They have a secure income while the players follow a different model, do well get shitloads of money, or if you fail you wont make much. Its almost like working on provision based saleries versus set saleries.
Player casting as guests is really nice, but if they dont want to commit to being a caster, they cant expect to be one either.
On January 04 2012 22:37 Derez wrote: What a pointless debate.
You can't be a caster and a player professionally at the same time. Time constraints don't allow it, as quite prominent people in this community have shown.
Will we see professional players transition into casting? Sure. They'll be just as good/bad at it as our current casters, most of whom were players at some point also.
(Huk mentioning casters being overpaid is kinda funny tho.)
You can be good at the game though. A masters player will typically have a higher understanding than someone who is gold (f.ex Bitter/Rotterdam/Orb). If they bring back 12 weeks, that will give people like Bitter even more insight into how players think when they play (since that was one of the major elements of the whole series).
But ignoring the actual commentary itself anyway, camera control and game awareness is more important than what a caster says. If they are talking crap, I can just tune out or mute them, but if they aren't showing me what's going on in the game, either through use of more tabs tan just Production, or through poor camera control/screen use, then they are pretty worthless.
Too many casters say "his economy is good/bad/etc", but they don't show the tab so they don't actually know.
Analytical or play by play doesn't matter if you are just making stuff up.
On January 04 2012 22:37 Derez wrote: What a pointless debate.
You can't be a caster and a player professionally at the same time. Time constraints don't allow it, as quite prominent people in this community have shown.
Will we see professional players transition into casting? Sure. They'll be just as good/bad at it as our current casters, most of whom were players at some point also.
(Huk mentioning casters being overpaid is kinda funny tho.)
This one is still going? Ahem.
Actually some have proved that they can step in and dissect a game pretty darn good when they aren't playing at that time. Multitasking! Some of them are better at analyzing as a result because they are actually in the trenches and many of them practice and play against one another all the time. They know each others tendencies and hence their analysis is more reliable. Plus, they mix it up. Take ClouD's stance for instance. He likes to talk about what's going inside a players head based on what he observes. Different takes are always welcome.
Husky has improved by a lot over time, but he's following the classic template for play-by-play commentary, which is fine as long as you keep it fresh.
*
I'd agree with everyone else: casters are indeed overpaid compared to the players.
They make more money than the vast majority of the pro's themselves. Casters have a hand in it for certain people; however, it has no affect on me because I know what I am watching. A good commentator is the icing on the cake for me.
If I don't like what a caster has to say and find them unnecessary I mute them and do my own commentary. If the caster is entertaining and brings a little more to the cast then sure, I'll keep the volume on.
Casters are viewed more important in the West because some people press for more growth. I keep telling them you cannot force the issue and it will grow over time. If you want to take an active role in the community then do so. Find your niche and produce. That's all there is to it. Right now, I'm fine with the size of the community. Heck, I was fine with the size of the community a decade ago too. Everything else is just gravy.
People talking about who gets paid what is stupid.
Surely we can all agree that all casters should play the game to be more knowledgeable casters. I personally believe that high-level players most likely have a better understanding, however alot of them aren't able to explain themselves quite well compared to a caster whom has the 'gift of gab'.
Totalbiscuit and Slasher are totally wrong, but I guess everyone wants to be famous even if they aren't good at anything. Tasteless, Artosis, and to a lesser extent, Day9 (he tries too hard and it gets annoying) are honestly the ONLY good casters in the English speaking/foreigner scene, with no exceptions (no disrespect to DJwheat, mad respect good friend and all). The deal is, if this shit is going to be considered a "sport", and players are going to all these tournaments, there isn't THAT much prize money to go around, and even if you place in the money in EVERY tournament you go to, you can't get rich off it and you can barely live off it. You need fame and face + name recognition, and that is how this "sport" will evolve. People like Tiger Woods made all that money from sponsorship and endorsement; prize purses were just gravy. The point is, the ONLY faces we should be seeing during a SC2 match are those of the two players, and we should be seeing them often. I don't honestly WANT to see that casters. I don't even want to know what they look like. Watch pro Football. Baseball. Basketball. They show the game the entire time, closeups of the players, stuff like that. They don't cut to the guys in the booth all the time and show them. They do interviews and stuff BEFORE and AFTER the game, but while shit's going down, it's the players' time in the spotlight, it's their time to play, show off what they can do, and BE SEEN. If the casters face is shown at all, it should be during an interview with the winner or something, but honestly, they need to be in a back room somewhere with sound controls, with the camera crew up front getting footage of the players faces, hands, screens, split-screens of both players facial expressions during crucial moments and big battles, all the goods spliced in with the actual game going on. THAT is how a cast of this game needs to go. If I watch a VoD, THAT is what I want to see.
By the way, I forget which tournament did it, but when Artosis and Tasteless were commentating, and after EVERY GAME they pan over to a bunch of fags sitting on a couch, including a ridiculously ugly fat dude in a FUCKING TOP HAT and they just talked for no reason about the game was literally the dumbest idea I have EVER seen in my life. God, that was blood-boiling. I couldn't bear to watch it, it was so clearly forced, so dumb, so fucking ANNOYING. The hilarious part was that Tasteless had to pretend he was so interested to hear "what our friends over on the couch have to say!". Jesus H. Christ, shoot me if that ever happens again. Oh, and top hat guy? Fuck you.
On January 05 2012 00:16 Naniwa wrote: casters get paid way more than the best players.. WAY more thats all ill say :X
How do you know what the best players get? And what do you mean with "casters"? Only 2-3 or maybe more? How do you know how much they earn? There are casters with a bigger fan base than any players has.
I don't know, comments like that only force drama.
(Huk mentioning casters being overpaid is kinda funny tho.)
It's funny because it is true. :/
Huk talking about people being overpaid is funny because he's getting paid more than most Koreans in code S because he's white.
HuK isn't paid more because he's white, it's because he's on EG.
You bet that if any top tier korean who's better than HuK decided to join EG they'd be getting way more dough.
I bet against that unless it's MVP. HuK doesn't get paid only because he is a good player (maybe the best foreigner by the way) but also because he is a fan favorite, a NA player (better for EG sponsors) and other reasons.
Pros have no place to complain about casters getting paid more than the players. If they truly believe that they're more valuable than the casters are to cups, circuits, invitationals, and tournaments, they (or, more likely, their managers) should leverage that. No one's stopping them from campaigning for appearance fees.
I guess what I'm saying is that casters are paid how much people think that they're worth. If players think that they're worth more than that, they should market themselves as being worth more instead of complaining about everyone else who gets more than they do.
On January 05 2012 00:45 LF9 wrote: Totalbiscuit and Slasher are totally wrong, but I guess everyone wants to be famous even if they aren't good at anything. Tasteless, Artosis, and to a lesser extent, Day9 (he tries too hard and it gets annoying) are honestly the ONLY good casters in the English speaking/foreigner scene, with no exceptions (no disrespect to DJwheat, mad respect good friend and all). The deal is, if this shit is going to be considered a "sport", and players are going to all these tournaments, there isn't THAT much prize money to go around, and even if you place in the money in EVERY tournament you go to, you can't get rich off it and you can barely live off it. You need fame and face + name recognition, and that is how this "sport" will evolve. People like Tiger Woods made all that money from sponsorship and endorsement; prize purses were just gravy. The point is, the ONLY faces we should be seeing during a SC2 match are those of the two players, and we should be seeing them often. I don't honestly WANT to see that casters. I don't even want to know what they look like. Watch pro Football. Baseball. Basketball. They show the game the entire time, closeups of the players, stuff like that. They don't cut to the guys in the booth all the time and show them. They do interviews and stuff BEFORE and AFTER the game, but while shit's going down, it's the players' time in the spotlight, it's their time to play, show off what they can do, and BE SEEN. If the casters face is shown at all, it should be during an interview with the winner or something, but honestly, they need to be in a back room somewhere with sound controls, with the camera crew up front getting footage of the players faces, hands, screens, split-screens of both players facial expressions during crucial moments and big battles, all the goods spliced in with the actual game going on. THAT is how a cast of this game needs to go. If I watch a VoD, THAT is what I want to see.
By the way, I forget which tournament did it, but when Artosis and Tasteless were commentating, and after EVERY GAME they pan over to a bunch of fags sitting on a couch, including a ridiculously ugly fat dude in a FUCKING TOP HAT and they just talked for no reason about the game was literally the dumbest idea I have EVER seen in my life. God, that was blood-boiling. I couldn't bear to watch it, it was so clearly forced, so dumb, so fucking ANNOYING. The hilarious part was that Tasteless had to pretend he was so interested to hear "what our friends over on the couch have to say!". Jesus H. Christ, shoot me if that ever happens again. Oh, and top hat guy? Fuck you.
Not sure exactly what your problem was with that, given that you talk about real sports in the first part of your post, then bitch about the guys on the couch in the second part. When I watch "real" sports on TV, want to know what happens? They have a couple of guys commentating the game/match/race/whatever, and when it's a break or it's over, they cut back to a studio/similar. That's exactly what they did with the whole couch thing.
You get 2 or so commentators for a professional match. During half time you get some analysts, usually in a studio somewhere, who talk from their perspective about how things went. Then you cut back to the commentators when the game resumes. You may not like who was on the couch, that's fine, but the concept of commentators + between game analysts is something you do see in professional televised sports.
On January 05 2012 00:16 Naniwa wrote: casters get paid way more than the best players.. WAY more thats all ill say :X
How do you know what the best players get? And what do you mean with "casters"? Only 2-3 or maybe more? How do you know how much they earn? There are casters with a bigger fan base than any players has.
I don't know, comments like that only force drama.
(Huk mentioning casters being overpaid is kinda funny tho.)
It's funny because it is true. :/
Huk talking about people being overpaid is funny because he's getting paid more than most Koreans in code S because he's white.
HuK isn't paid more because he's white, it's because he's on EG.
You bet that if any top tier korean who's better than HuK decided to join EG they'd be getting way more dough.
I bet against that unless it's MVP. HuK doesn't get paid only because he is a good player (maybe the best foreigner by the way) but also because he is a fan favorite, a NA player (better for EG sponsors) and other reasons.
Still don't know why this thread keeps getting bumped... Was ages ago dicussion which is a 50-50 point of either you agree or disagree with certain point clearly doesn't need revisiting every couple of weeks t.t
On December 17 2011 04:51 Shaok wrote: Pro gamers complaining about being paid less than casters?
The current casters do a lot more work and put themselves out there much more often. They do not just sit there and practice for hours on end in the hidden gaming scene. They are what we would call Celebrities in the eSports world.
If you want to be equal with them and praised do something about it.
Make a show, stream more and don't just listen to random korean music. Interact with your fans and promote yourself. If you want to be paid more be worth more.
But this is exactly the core problem. Players should dedicate themselves to training and strengthening their game, at least in my opinion.
ya i think you both sum it up pretty nicely. personally i care much less for making money, or PR, or fame rather than spending my time like you said, on practicing and playing this game trying to earn money through skill
i think casters also get generally more paid because there are very few casters out there, while on the other hand if u look at players, there are like 100 times more of them. so tournament organisators obviously want, the best players and the best casters. but since there are so few casters out there, these are much harder to grab than great players. and because there are so few good casters out there, they can pretty much ask for a shitload of money from the tournaments for them to actually cast it.
while for players its pretty easy to convince them to play their tournaments. they arent getting paid by going there as working. they go to these events as players for a chance to grab money.
when you watch football, theres not a whole lot of explaining needed to do by the casters. the viewers pretty much can see whats going on with their own eyes and be amazed by the players and teams. but in sc2, since this game is alot more complex than football or any other sport, the caster role is suddenly alot more important. the viewers in general prefer great casters casting good players rather than good casters casting great players for this reason.
when you think about it it makes complete sense that the casters make alot more money than the players in general. weather its ideal or not is a different story.
this down here is my general thought on how to equalize the money distribution between players and casters, please keep in mind i dont have an opinion if players make too little money, or if casters make too much money. in my eyes you get as much money as you deserve, if you chose to be a progamer you should have seen it coming not making alot of money -- this is whats needed for casters to make less money. we need to get alot more casters, and better ones. we need competition between the casters. right now we sit with a very few amount of top tier casters, a handful of decent casters, and then im sure theres many not so good casters out there, or at least not famous. the more top tier casters we have, the tables will turn, and tournament orgas will look for the cheapest possible top tier casters. and when this goes on naturally the money the casters make will only decrease.
and how can we up players salary? well individually a player get more money the more content, commercial he does, along with winning tournaments. so people watch their streams, check out the sponsors the players shutout to, watch their interviews and check out all content they provide. request tournaments to bring more spotlight and cameras on the players rather than the casters. just in general be alot more supportive of the players and take your eyes on them.
you need to demonstrate a reason for sponsors, teams and tournament orgas why players have so high value. nobody is gonna pay anyone more just because "they work harder", they need to know work is paying off. sponsors need to see. "oh shit this team in this game is bringing alot of money". if this keeps going eventually players get higher salery and possibly individual sponsors
On January 05 2012 00:16 Naniwa wrote: casters get paid way more than the best players.. WAY more thats all ill say :X
HuK is supposedly making $60-80k a year. If Tastosis would make WAY more than him they would be at what $80-120k a year in salary from GOM? I strongly doubt it.
On January 05 2012 00:16 Naniwa wrote: casters get paid way more than the best players.. WAY more thats all ill say :X
HuK is supposedly making $60-80k a year. If Tastosis would make WAY more than him they would be at what $80-120k a year in salary from GOM? I strongly doubt it.
I believe that their are pretty incompetent casters, e.g HDstarcraft, Husky That literally just say whats happening on the screen, and not analyze the game or tactics.
However, there are one or two casters that exist right now who deserve to be at the spot their in. Artosis is the best we have right now, Dapollo isn't too bad either.
Watching HDstarcraft makes me cringe sometimes, I usually put on mute because It drives me crazy the things he says. Its so obvious. "He's making a factory", thanks for letting me know that, if I was blind then that would have been very helpful. While Artosis for example would say "He's making a factory, this could lead to "X" things; 1:1:1, ect.". In my honest opinion, no offense to him either, I don't think HDstarcraft deserves the rep and views on youtube he has, but thats mainly opinion based.
Yes there are a lot of casters that are incompetent and are just kinda hosts... however I feel like theres a place for these people. Pair a Host with an Analytical commentator.
e.g IdrA;DjWheat, Artosis/Tasteless, and so fourth.
it makes sense to have a commentary team consisting of an analytical caster and a more articulate and confident experienced caster, as this will cater for both the newbie and more experienced audience.
but the bottom line is that everyone has a chance of being a caster. if they're not successful at being a caster, it's because they're a f***ing terrible caster and noone wants to watch them... the popularity figures speak for themselves, do they not?
On January 04 2012 22:37 Derez wrote: What a pointless debate.
You can't be a caster and a player professionally at the same time. Time constraints don't allow it, as quite prominent people in this community have shown.
Will we see professional players transition into casting? Sure. They'll be just as good/bad at it as our current casters, most of whom were players at some point also.
(Huk mentioning casters being overpaid is kinda funny tho.)
You can be good at the game though. A masters player will typically have a higher understanding than someone who is gold (f.ex Bitter/Rotterdam/Orb). If they bring back 12 weeks, that will give people like Bitter even more insight into how players think when they play (since that was one of the major elements of the whole series).
But ignoring the actual commentary itself anyway, camera control and game awareness is more important than what a caster says. If they are talking crap, I can just tune out or mute them, but if they aren't showing me what's going on in the game, either through use of more tabs tan just Production, or through poor camera control/screen use, then they are pretty worthless.
Too many casters say "his economy is good/bad/etc", but they don't show the tab so they don't actually know.
Analytical or play by play doesn't matter if you are just making stuff up.
Is there a reason you decide to randomly spew false information? You make yourself look really dumb when you say things like "someone who is gold (f.ex Bitter/Rotterdam/Orb)" when rotterdam is a well-known grandmaster player on EU and I've been masters (as random no less) since the day master league was added to the game.... As for Bitter I'm pretty certain he's masters though I haven't really followed
edit: nevermind he apparently just worded his sentence incorrectly.
On January 04 2012 22:37 Derez wrote: What a pointless debate.
You can't be a caster and a player professionally at the same time. Time constraints don't allow it, as quite prominent people in this community have shown.
Will we see professional players transition into casting? Sure. They'll be just as good/bad at it as our current casters, most of whom were players at some point also.
(Huk mentioning casters being overpaid is kinda funny tho.)
You can be good at the game though. A masters player will typically have a higher understanding than someone who is gold (f.ex Bitter/Rotterdam/Orb). If they bring back 12 weeks, that will give people like Bitter even more insight into how players think when they play (since that was one of the major elements of the whole series).
But ignoring the actual commentary itself anyway, camera control and game awareness is more important than what a caster says. If they are talking crap, I can just tune out or mute them, but if they aren't showing me what's going on in the game, either through use of more tabs tan just Production, or through poor camera control/screen use, then they are pretty worthless.
Too many casters say "his economy is good/bad/etc", but they don't show the tab so they don't actually know.
Analytical or play by play doesn't matter if you are just making stuff up.
Is there a reason you decide to randomly spew false information? You make yourself look really stupid when you say things like "someone who is gold (f.ex Bitter/Rotterdam/Orb)" when rotterdam is a well-known grandmaster player on EU and I've been masters (as random no less) since the day master league was added to the game...
i think he just worded that terribly actually. i read that as...
"A masters player (f.ex Bitter/Rotterdam/Orb) will typically have a higher understanding than someone who is gold"
...even though that's not what was typed. might be wrong though....
Well I think both sides are right ti an extent. My idea is that there should be one analytical caster and one with a more play by play means of casting. The play by play guy can announce things happening with a well spoken voice and create humor during the lull of a game and give general humanity to the very methodical and deep game that is sc2. Whereas the second caster does the more heavy analysis of both players. This works well because too much analysis is hard for spectators to hear sometimes. I'm a caster myself and I bounce back and forth between the two roles and play at a masters level. I think to be a really good analytical type you need tohave played this game on a really high level (preferably pro) but to do the play by play? A darn good voice, personality and at least high-diamond to understand most basics to commentate accurately.
i think casters also get generally more paid because there are very few casters out there, while on the other hand if u look at players, there are like 100 times more of them. so tournament organisators obviously want, the best players and the best casters. but since there are so few casters out there, these are much harder to grab than great players. and because there are so few good casters out there, they can pretty much ask for a shitload of money from the tournaments for them to actually cast it.
On January 05 2012 00:45 LF9 wrote: Totalbiscuit and Slasher are totally wrong, but I guess everyone wants to be famous even if they aren't good at anything. Tasteless, Artosis, and to a lesser extent, Day9 (he tries too hard and it gets annoying) are honestly the ONLY good casters in the English speaking/foreigner scene, with no exceptions (no disrespect to DJwheat, mad respect good friend and all). The deal is, if this shit is going to be considered a "sport", and players are going to all these tournaments, there isn't THAT much prize money to go around, and even if you place in the money in EVERY tournament you go to, you can't get rich off it and you can barely live off it. You need fame and face + name recognition, and that is how this "sport" will evolve. People like Tiger Woods made all that money from sponsorship and endorsement; prize purses were just gravy. The point is, the ONLY faces we should be seeing during a SC2 match are those of the two players, and we should be seeing them often. I don't honestly WANT to see that casters. I don't even want to know what they look like. Watch pro Football. Baseball. Basketball. They show the game the entire time, closeups of the players, stuff like that. They don't cut to the guys in the booth all the time and show them. They do interviews and stuff BEFORE and AFTER the game, but while shit's going down, it's the players' time in the spotlight, it's their time to play, show off what they can do, and BE SEEN. If the casters face is shown at all, it should be during an interview with the winner or something, but honestly, they need to be in a back room somewhere with sound controls, with the camera crew up front getting footage of the players faces, hands, screens, split-screens of both players facial expressions during crucial moments and big battles, all the goods spliced in with the actual game going on. THAT is how a cast of this game needs to go. If I watch a VoD, THAT is what I want to see.
By the way, I forget which tournament did it, but when Artosis and Tasteless were commentating, and after EVERY GAME they pan over to a bunch of fags sitting on a couch, including a ridiculously ugly fat dude in a FUCKING TOP HAT and they just talked for no reason about the game was literally the dumbest idea I have EVER seen in my life. God, that was blood-boiling. I couldn't bear to watch it, it was so clearly forced, so dumb, so fucking ANNOYING. The hilarious part was that Tasteless had to pretend he was so interested to hear "what our friends over on the couch have to say!". Jesus H. Christ, shoot me if that ever happens again. Oh, and top hat guy? Fuck you.
Are you fucking stupid or something? TB as well as the other english speaking casters are part of why the game is what it is. You clearly have not a single brain cell in your head or you would realize that cause they do a brilliant job at what they do. You're just some butthurt Tastosis fan who for some reason deems everyone else as trash. Well please get off your elitist high horse an come back to earth cause you're not as great as you think. These people do more for Esports as a whole then you ever will or can even dream of.
On January 05 2012 03:31 Smigi wrote: I agree with HuK to an extent.
I believe that their are pretty incompetent casters, e.g HDstarcraft, Husky That literally just say whats happening on the screen, and not analyze the game or tactics.
However, there are one or two casters that exist right now who deserve to be at the spot their in. Artosis is the best we have right now, Dapollo isn't too bad either.
Watching HDstarcraft makes me cringe sometimes, I usually put on mute because It drives me crazy the things he says. Its so obvious. "He's making a factory", thanks for letting me know that, if I was blind then that would have been very helpful. While Artosis for example would say "He's making a factory, this could lead to "X" things; 1:1:1, ect.". In my honest opinion, no offense to him either, I don't think HDstarcraft deserves the rep and views on youtube he has, but thats mainly opinion based.
Yes there are a lot of casters that are incompetent and are just kinda hosts... however I feel like theres a place for these people. Pair a Host with an Analytical commentator.
e.g IdrA;DjWheat, Artosis/Tasteless, and so fourth.
Imo you are right if it's about life event(although husky is really good with Day9 etc), but these guys are awesome for esports. I didn't play broodwar and i always thought counterstrike was the only esports, but if you buy starcraft and you will google it, you will find these guys and start being interest in esports, because they say exactly what happens but its enough as a start. Later you can switch watching Day9 etc when you understand the game yourself. My point is that you need not analytical casters for newbies and the average viewer.
The way the game and business model works, it is impossible for players to consistently make the same kind of money as casters like tastosis/day9/djwheat. If GOM is going to shell out a certain amount of money, they are naturally going to look for a consistent return on that money. They can't sell their product based on "oh look, MVP is in our tournament" or whatever other player, because there is no guarantee that said player will make past the first round. The game is simply to volatile.
However, the one thing they can count on, is that the casters they hire will be there from the beginning to end, and that the top guys will draw a certain number of people to the stream regardless of who is playing.
It's a shitty system, and I think that based on effort and dedication, the players deserve way more money than the casters do, but until the game is less volatile and the superstar players can consistently draw an audience deep into their tournament runs, this system will remain.
This is why there has been more money in salaries and larger company sponsorships in the higher skill ceiling Brood War, where the small differences in skill at the very top level of play result in more consistent placings.
someone should find the TL post of DJ Wheat writing about why Idra shouldn't be casting. Idra casted GSL games, while Tasteless and Artosis were at Blizzcon. Personally, I think the bigger issue is casters who paid their dues (good SC2 players at their own right and casted BW games) and bandwagon casters. I'm positive the street cred casters would have lesser issue of players casting than the other kind.
It should be an obvious fact that the best players make A LOT more than casters, as in any competitive environment. Sadly that's not what is happening here.
On January 05 2012 00:45 LF9 wrote: By the way, I forget which tournament did it, but when Artosis and Tasteless were commentating, and after EVERY GAME they pan over to a bunch of fags sitting on a couch, including a ridiculously ugly fat dude in a FUCKING TOP HAT and they just talked for no reason about the game was literally the dumbest idea I have EVER seen in my life. God, that was blood-boiling. I couldn't bear to watch it, it was so clearly forced, so dumb, so fucking ANNOYING. The hilarious part was that Tasteless had to pretend he was so interested to hear "what our friends over on the couch have to say!".
I think that was Dreamhack. Yeah, that was annoying.
The reason they had to do that was because they did the same thing when TotalBiscuit and Apollo were casting, and they would go to the couch after the game for analysis from Tasteless, Day9, and Artosis. That was a godsend, especially with Artosis dropping more insight in 15 seconds than was present during the entire game cast. It was hilarious when they'd cut to Artosis, and he'd just say, "yeah, that was a build-order win." They had to maintain the polite fiction that all the casters were equally knowledgeable, so Tasteless had to do the same when they were casting.
But hey, if you don't like it, stop watching. Just get a GSL ticket, and you don't have to put up with that anymore. You get better games, better commentary, and better production value. Personally, I still watch the big MLG events, but with the explosion in streaming, and better-quality content coming out almost every day, there's no reason to watch stuff you just barely tolerate.
(And a quick wave hello to TotalBiscuit, who seems to respond with ninja-speed to every mention of his name on the internet.)
While I don't appreciate the way HuK presented his argument I tend to agree more with him. I am dissapointed he had to make this such a dramatic situation but some players definitely have the ability to cast and most casters do seem to be appreciated slightly too much. I understand Slasher's standpoint b/c not all players have what it takes to cast; you have to be likeable, smart, and good at filling time seamlessly. It is not as easy as HuK makes it seem but definitely not harder than winning tournaments.
I think it's scarcity at work. Bluntly stated, there are aren't many casters who are a net positive for the event they are casting and there are fewer still who are a strong draw for audiences (that is, they increase the viewership of an event significantly just by being there). So they are in a stronger negotiating position because casting CAN AND WILL break your event.
Players, even high quality players, will still show up to events that don't pay well (see MLG this year). It's tough to get a large unorganized group to do anything detrimental short term (i.e. skipping tournaments) for long term gain. That's the dilemma here.
On January 05 2012 00:45 LF9 wrote: Totalbiscuit and Slasher are totally wrong, but I guess everyone wants to be famous even if they aren't good at anything. Tasteless, Artosis, and to a lesser extent, Day9 (he tries too hard and it gets annoying) are honestly the ONLY good casters in the English speaking/foreigner scene, with no exceptions (no disrespect to DJwheat, mad respect good friend and all). The deal is, if this shit is going to be considered a "sport", and players are going to all these tournaments, there isn't THAT much prize money to go around, and even if you place in the money in EVERY tournament you go to, you can't get rich off it and you can barely live off it. You need fame and face + name recognition, and that is how this "sport" will evolve. People like Tiger Woods made all that money from sponsorship and endorsement; prize purses were just gravy. The point is, the ONLY faces we should be seeing during a SC2 match are those of the two players, and we should be seeing them often. I don't honestly WANT to see that casters. I don't even want to know what they look like. Watch pro Football. Baseball. Basketball. They show the game the entire time, closeups of the players, stuff like that. They don't cut to the guys in the booth all the time and show them. They do interviews and stuff BEFORE and AFTER the game, but while shit's going down, it's the players' time in the spotlight, it's their time to play, show off what they can do, and BE SEEN. If the casters face is shown at all, it should be during an interview with the winner or something, but honestly, they need to be in a back room somewhere with sound controls, with the camera crew up front getting footage of the players faces, hands, screens, split-screens of both players facial expressions during crucial moments and big battles, all the goods spliced in with the actual game going on. THAT is how a cast of this game needs to go. If I watch a VoD, THAT is what I want to see.
By the way, I forget which tournament did it, but when Artosis and Tasteless were commentating, and after EVERY GAME they pan over to a bunch of fags sitting on a couch, including a ridiculously ugly fat dude in a FUCKING TOP HAT and they just talked for no reason about the game was literally the dumbest idea I have EVER seen in my life. God, that was blood-boiling. I couldn't bear to watch it, it was so clearly forced, so dumb, so fucking ANNOYING. The hilarious part was that Tasteless had to pretend he was so interested to hear "what our friends over on the couch have to say!". Jesus H. Christ, shoot me if that ever happens again. Oh, and top hat guy? Fuck you.
The fact is that casters draw more fans than MOST of the players will. Unless you are on the fame level of idra/boxer/mvp/nestea/huk I think that casters bring in more people. Artosis/Tastelss/Day9 will draw a lot more viewers than other casters. I am just more surprised the top players aren't demanding appearance fees.
Honestly, I don't think it's all that strange if casters are being well paid. Casters being individual and each one having their own style, they have developed significant fan bases, and if a caster by having a large fanbase gets more people to watch an event they are casting(thus making the event get more money from more viewers), why shouldn't they get paid for it?
In the end, I think it's all about what the fans want, and if they like the current casters, things will stay as they are. If the majority of fans/viewers start leaning towards pro's casting, then that is what will happen because that will be the most profitable course of actions by events.
I personally do believe the current casters bring alot to the table, even if they are not going as deep as possible in the analytical point of view, I don't think it would be very appealing to the average watcher(newbies and people new to Starcraft especially) to have casters that are analysing stuff that you don't get shit about.
That said I think the best setup would be one or two "regular casters" for the enjoyment, the humour and the flow of the cast and someone(a pro) who can give more of an analyctical perspective which would appeal the more "hardcore" gamer.
On January 05 2012 00:45 LF9 wrote: By the way, I forget which tournament did it, but when Artosis and Tasteless were commentating, and after EVERY GAME they pan over to a bunch of fags sitting on a couch, including a ridiculously ugly fat dude in a FUCKING TOP HAT and they just talked for no reason about the game was literally the dumbest idea I have EVER seen in my life. God, that was blood-boiling. I couldn't bear to watch it, it was so clearly forced, so dumb, so fucking ANNOYING. The hilarious part was that Tasteless had to pretend he was so interested to hear "what our friends over on the couch have to say!". Jesus H. Christ, shoot me if that ever happens again. Oh, and top hat guy? Fuck you.
Way to invalidate your entire post with this inept and down right rude paragraph. For the record, TB has stated that he did not belong on that couch in the first place, and how awkward it was seeing as he is not an analytical caster. Did you really have to go out of your way to downright trash the guy for no apparent reason?
Extremely dissapointing if those numbers Huk said are correct. Day9 making 20 g's just for showing up? Talking in his weird 100% fake contrived personality.. phoneying it up... Then top players are scraping by on minimum wage.
Why are these casters so overhyped and overpraised? I have been wondering for the past year now.
On January 05 2012 08:25 wOrD yO wrote: as soon as total biscuit started talking in a analytical caster conversation.. hmph. haha
More qualified than you are to discuss it that's for sure
Way to invalidate your entire post with this inept and down right rude paragraph. For the record, TB has stated that he did not belong on that couch in the first place, and how awkward it was seeing as he is not an analytical caster. Did you really have to go out of your way to downright trash the guy for no apparent reason?
Some people are just morons, they are a cancer that needs cutting out of the community, forcefully.
On January 04 2012 22:37 Derez wrote: What a pointless debate.
You can't be a caster and a player professionally at the same time. Time constraints don't allow it, as quite prominent people in this community have shown.
Will we see professional players transition into casting? Sure. They'll be just as good/bad at it as our current casters, most of whom were players at some point also.
(Huk mentioning casters being overpaid is kinda funny tho.)
You can be good at the game though. A masters player will typically have a higher understanding than someone who is gold (f.ex Bitter/Rotterdam/Orb). If they bring back 12 weeks, that will give people like Bitter even more insight into how players think when they play (since that was one of the major elements of the whole series).
But ignoring the actual commentary itself anyway, camera control and game awareness is more important than what a caster says. If they are talking crap, I can just tune out or mute them, but if they aren't showing me what's going on in the game, either through use of more tabs tan just Production, or through poor camera control/screen use, then they are pretty worthless.
Too many casters say "his economy is good/bad/etc", but they don't show the tab so they don't actually know.
Analytical or play by play doesn't matter if you are just making stuff up.
Is there a reason you decide to randomly spew false information? You make yourself look really stupid when you say things like "someone who is gold (f.ex Bitter/Rotterdam/Orb)" when rotterdam is a well-known grandmaster player on EU and I've been masters (as random no less) since the day master league was added to the game...
i think he just worded that terribly actually. i read that as...
"A masters player (f.ex Bitter/Rotterdam/Orb) will typically have a higher understanding than someone who is gold"
...even though that's not what was typed. might be wrong though....
Yes, I did word it badly. Giving an example of three masters players should have indicated that I was giving examples of masters players who are casters, and not gold players.
On January 05 2012 09:08 gregnog wrote: Extremely dissapointing if those Huks numbers are correct. Day9 making 20 g's just for showing up? Talking in his weird 100% fake contrived personality.. phoneying it up... Then top players are scraping by on minimum wage.
Why are these casters so overhyped and overpraised? I have been wondering for the past year now.
While I do agree that the income gap between casters and players should be bridged, I do not think day9 is a phony... Do yourself a favor and watch day9 daily #100. Esports is day9's passion, and it's definitely genuine. You'll understand once you watch that daily
Day9 does sometimes come across as a bit fake live, but I suspect that's because he's had so little sleep (see: MLG, DHW) that he honestly doesn't care about anything except sleep and yet he has to come on and put on a show for the fans.
On January 05 2012 09:08 gregnog wrote: Extremely dissapointing if those Huks numbers are correct. Day9 making 20 g's just for showing up? Talking in his weird 100% fake contrived personality.. phoneying it up... Then top players are scraping by on minimum wage.
Why are these casters so overhyped and overpraised? I have been wondering for the past year now.
While I do agree that the income gap between casters and players should be bridged, I do not think day9 is a phony... Do yourself a favor and watch day9 daily #100. Esports is day9's passion, and it's definitely genuine. You'll understand once you watch that daily
Yeah Day9's probably one of the most genuine casters. Sure he fakes excitement sometimes but not as much as most of the other casters when there are boring games. Hell I remember him casting a long game mostly talking about how boring it was - the whole time it was happening.
FFS we've all seen the good old "I'm so excited I have nerdchills" right before a game between 2 no-names.
I wouldn't lose any sleep if all the casters incomes were slashed to reflect their true value, and that money was re directed into the players.
Hell, if i had it my way the players would do all the casting and thus get all the money. The very idea that casters are flown out from other countries to cast events.... that's revolting to me. That money should be going to the people who are actually competing in the tournaments for my entertainments.
This makes me so mad. I pay to see people play starcraft. I don't pay for this cult of personality caster bullshit. That all this money is going to people who aren't professional players, that's hurting ESPORTS.
The lack of respect for the history of "pro" gaming and how far its come in the last few years here is astounding.
To hear people who are paid a salary by a pro team to play a computer game and do what they love moaning about how much money they are making shows how out of touch and spoiled some of you have become.
I remember winning a large event about 9 years ago and my take home split 8 ways was £250, how much did you make last year HuK ? are you out on the street begging in-between GSL's to put a roof over your head ? I think not.
Just remember all of you we are playing computer games and some are making enough out of it (by some it seems like there are quite a few pro players making enough not to need to actually work), remember how much E-sports has struggled to and continues to be taken seriously and have some respect for those that went before and the privileged position you sit in.
As for the caster vs player argument, there is simply a much smaller "capable" (and some not :tophat caster pool, this means your marquee casters are obviously going to make more money. As they can only cast so many tournaments and can only be in so many places so given this is a product driven market they are going to go where they are best paid and good on them. If its that easy and you're so bent out of shape about it why dont you all try to turn your hand to casting ? or would that be like admitting that HIGH level casting isnt something everyone can do?
In essence be happy you get to play COMPUTER GAMES and make money you bunch of ungrateful idiots, ill happily swap my day job with any of you :p
Who cares? Do your job and be happy about it or move on to something else. Who gives a shit about what day9 makes, or what HuK's salary is.
Everyone is doing what they want to be doing and are getting paid what people think they are worth. This isn't the NFL/MLB/NHL and it never will be. So put up with it or GTFO.
Players and casters whould be gratefull for what they are paid. Whether it's 20k in prize money, or 20k for a job well done. This could all be over in a couple of years, what will you do then? Enjoy the ride while it lasts it isn't going to go on forever. Eventuall the next big game will come out and the people who provide the money for everyone to get paid is going to move on.
Don't say you think you're underpaid becasue you are not. People do much harder jobs for much less. People are just being greedy. Again enjoy it while it lasts, you guys have a job, not a career
On January 05 2012 09:47 Goibon wrote: I wouldn't lose any sleep if all the casters incomes were slashed to reflect their true value, and that money was re directed into the players.
Hell, if i had it my way the players would do all the casting and thus get all the money. The very idea that casters are flown out from other countries to cast events.... that's revolting to me. That money should be going to the people who are actually competing in the tournaments for my entertainments.
This makes me so mad. I pay to see people play starcraft. I don't pay for this cult of personality caster bullshit. That all this money is going to people who aren't professional players, that's hurting ESPORTS.
Sounds good, except then the players don't get paid anywhere near as much because a fraction of the people actually watch due to lackluster presentation and serious communication problems.
You are in a minority that will watch Starcraft without professional commentary. Most players do not have the necessary skills to properly commentate a game, that takes a lot of practice and certain skills which everyday people don't possess. A tiny selection of players have demonstrated their ability to commentate effectively, most have not. There is also no way it would actually work outside of unusual circumstances like HSC.
But hey, if you want to wreck eSports as we know it by slashing the audience down due to a complete lack of approachability and sabotage efforts to bring new fans into the scene, all of which causes the prizepools to be so big for the players in the first place then by all means, continue to find the current state of affairs sickening.
Casters have done more for this game than most either seem to realise or care to admit and they tend to be the ones who get shit on the most for their work.
On January 05 2012 09:47 Goibon wrote: I wouldn't lose any sleep if all the casters incomes were slashed to reflect their true value, and that money was re directed into the players.
Hell, if i had it my way the players would do all the casting and thus get all the money. The very idea that casters are flown out from other countries to cast events.... that's revolting to me. That money should be going to the people who are actually competing in the tournaments for my entertainments.
This makes me so mad. I pay to see people play starcraft. I don't pay for this cult of personality caster bullshit. That all this money is going to people who aren't professional players, that's hurting ESPORTS.
Sounds good, except then the players don't get paid anywhere near as much because a fraction of the people actually watch due to lackluster presentation and serious communication problems.
You are in a minority that will watch Starcraft without professional commentary. Most players do not have the necessary skills to properly commentate a game, that takes a lot of practice and certain skills which everyday people don't possess. A tiny selection of players have demonstrated their ability to commentate effectively, most have not. There is also no way it would actually work outside of unusual circumstances like HSC.
But hey, if you want to wreck eSports as we know it by slashing the audience down due to a complete lack of approachability and sabotage efforts to bring new fans into the scene, all of which causes the prizepools to be so big for the players in the first place then by all means, continue to find the current state of affairs sickening.
Casters have done more for this game than most either seem to realise or care to admit and they tend to be the ones who get shit on the most for their work.
Casters are good and 100% necessary. Hell, if it wasn't for Husky a while back I wouldn't have anything to do with the StarCraft community. A caster needs to bring a certain skill set and personality to the table that most pro-gamers don't have and don't need to have.
The amount of emotional engagement and excitement often conveyed by the casters (Koreans screaming, Husky losing his voice and talking 400 words per minute :D etc.) is what makes an outstanding game a moment and memory you will never forget (and it gets people who are new to the scene interested).
However, I think in the case of Day[9] there has developed a kind of cult of personality that makes it hard to even be slightly critical because you will get bashed by fanboys. I think it even went to Day[9]'s head. I love the guy and I still watch all the dailies but I remember the good ol'days where he wouldn't miss a major part of analysis because he is talking about himself. YET - what he has done and is continuing to do for the community is amazing and it's definitely worth paying him and any other caster to go abroad and cast a tourney!
I hope I could convey my point clearly. Not sure.
Edit: grammatical stuff here and there. given up now. it's stayin' like this.
Its a shame totalbiscuit is "championing" the caster and not some decent caster because if him being silver and not knowing anything about the games hes casting didn't ruin esports taking some money away from casters certainly wont either.
It would be wise not to confuse a rabid world of warcraft fanbase for actually being a worthwhile good added value caster, most forum goers I know (from various areas) would rather mute the stream than listen to something you cast.
Good casters add a lot of value to Sc2 but I agree the crap casters could get paid a whole lot less and have it distributed amongst the players, the less we reward the bottom tier of casters the better the entire experience will become for us all.
On January 05 2012 11:43 steff wrote: Its a shame totalbiscuit is "championing" the caster and not some decent caster because if him being silver and not knowing anything about the games hes casting didn't ruin esports taking some money away from casters certainly wont either.
It would be wise not to confuse a rabid world of warcraft fanbase for actually being a worthwhile good added value caster, most forum goers I know (from various areas) would rather mute the stream than listen to something you cast.
Good casters add a lot of value to Sc2 but I agree the crap casters could get paid a whole lot less and have it distributed amongst the players, the less we reward the bottom tier of casters the better the entire experience will become for us all.
On January 05 2012 11:50 Linwelin wrote: TB is not doing WoW anymore, try again
If he didnt have the startup fanbase from wow do you really think a silver level caster who doesn't know anything about the game and shouts in an over emphasised English accent would have made it ?
I mean REALLY ?
anyway its not really relevant to what I was saying, fact is good casters add a huge value to tournaments, but there are a huge amount of bad casters raking in cash who cant even be bothered to learn the game to a decent level.
Odd how someone like TLO could just step in and be a huge improvement over Totalbiscuit with hardly any casting experience wasn't it ?
On January 05 2012 11:43 steff wrote: Its a shame totalbiscuit is "championing" the caster and not some decent caster because if him being silver and not knowing anything about the games hes casting didn't ruin esports taking some money away from casters certainly wont either.
It would be wise not to confuse a rabid world of warcraft fanbase for actually being a worthwhile good added value caster, most forum goers I know (from various areas) would rather mute the stream than listen to something you cast.
Good casters add a lot of value to Sc2 but I agree the crap casters could get paid a whole lot less and have it distributed amongst the players, the less we reward the bottom tier of casters the better the entire experience will become for us all.
Did you not read the awesome bar saying "Keep the discussion civil, please."?
You are in Bronze league of respectful communication. I can't even find the will to care about what you said just because of the way you said it. But maybe that's just because I "don't know anything"
On January 05 2012 11:50 Linwelin wrote: TB is not doing WoW anymore, try again
If he didnt have the startup fanbase from wow do you really think a silver level caster who doesn't know anything about the game and shouts in an over emphasised English accent would have made it ?
I mean REALLY ?
anyway its not really relevant to what I was saying, fact is good casters add a huge value to tournaments, but there are a huge amount of bad casters raking in cash who cant even be bothered to learn the game to a decent level.
Odd how someone like TLO could just step in and be a huge improvement over Totalbiscuit with hardly any casting experience wasn't it ?
TB's main audience was not from WoW but from all his other games coverage. As I said, try again
Anyway, this is not the bash TB thread so if you don't have anything else to say you can stop posting
Did you not read the awesome bar saying "Keep the discussion civil, please."?
You are in Bronze league of respectful communication. I can't even find the will to care about what you said just because of the way you said it but maybe it's just because I "don't know anything"
That was civil, its like the age old problem of a friend that smells how else can you tell them they smell that isnt going to hurt their feelings you can be as nice as possible but the message is whats hurtful and the message here is what hurts not the way its constructed.
As they say the truth hurts and for everyone one of you fanboys there is an equal number who will mute any stream he casts.
TB's main audience was not from WoW but from all his other games coverage. As I said, try again
Anyway, this is not the bash TB thread so if you don't have anything else to say you can stop posting
Do you have an exact breakdown of where the audience came from ? no you don't so its probably wise to stop posting baseless straw men here, the point isnt overly where the fanbase came from but the fact that he had one from previous games coming into sc2, that in itself isnt a bad thing, but when hes getting high level gigs because of it and mostly ruining them it becomes a problem for all bar that now small percentage who are carryover fans.
Indeed its not, but you seemingly cannot critique anyone on TL without rabid fanboys trying to straw man it up and divert it away from the actual point.
Which for the 4th time is, Good casters make tournaments if you're going to take money away from anyone take it away from the bad ones.
do you really think a silver level caster who doesn't know anything about the game and shouts in an over emphasised English accent would have made it
So these aren't insulting assumptions?
For the sake of this thread and my nerves I will say that again without a question mark. I don't want to encourage more posts because we will not come to any fruitful result. So here we go:
do you really think a silver level caster who doesn't know anything about the game and shouts in an over emphasised English accent would have made it
So these aren't insulting assumptions?
For the sake of this thread and my nerves I will say that again without a question mark. I don't want to encourage more posts because we will not come to any fruitful result. So here we go:
do you really think a silver level caster who doesn't know anything about the game and shouts in an over emphasised English accent would have made it
So these aren't insulting assumptions?
For the sake of this thread and my nerves I will say that again without a question mark. I don't want to encourage more posts because we will not come to any fruitful result. So here we go:
I swore of general forums long ago just because of this I responded directly to the quote you seemingly cannot R>C>P so its best to just call it a day there and go back to watching TB casts on loop
On January 05 2012 11:50 Linwelin wrote: TB is not doing WoW anymore, try again
If he didnt have the startup fanbase from wow do you really think a silver level caster who doesn't know anything about the game and shouts in an over emphasised English accent would have made it ?
I mean REALLY ?
anyway its not really relevant to what I was saying, fact is good casters add a huge value to tournaments, but there are a huge amount of bad casters raking in cash who cant even be bothered to learn the game to a decent level.
Odd how someone like TLO could just step in and be a huge improvement over Totalbiscuit with hardly any casting experience wasn't it ?
Look, some players, like TLO, definitely have the charisma and the personality to be amazing casters if they tried. However, the vast majority of the players simply don't have that ability. Casting for the broader audience is more than simply being correct and analytically. Casting is first and foremost to entertain the viewers. If the caster is knowledgeable, the cast becomes more fun to watch than if the caster is spouting bullshit. But at the same time, if the caster is really knowledgeable but has absolutely no idea of how to communicate or relay their knowledge to the viewers, the cast will be boring and lack excitement.
Here at TL, the majority of players probably have a decent grasp of the game and also are passionate enough about the game that we probably wouldn't give a shit if the casters of the game spoke in complete monotone and would watch it anyways. But I'm pretty darn sure that the TL attitude isn't the attitude of the majority. It certainly isn't the attitude of people who are just getting into the eSports scene.
The reason why players are making less than casters is because casters are an as big, or bigger draw of viewership. SC2 is still quite young and the western audience values personality above all else. We (as in Westerners in general) like to see personable, exciting people and are more drawn to them. Because casters exhibit that personality and charisma, they become a larger asset and are more marketable. Casters will continue making more money than players until we get players who are very marketable or players with so much raw skill their mere presence is entertainment enough. Not only that, but players themselves have to realize their own $$$ potential and stand up for themselves, which can't happen until the foundation of esports is more developed. Think of it this way, I highly doubt that the first pro basketball players made that much money; the vast majority of earnings probably went to networks or sponsors. As the pro scene developed and gained a larger following, the income moved to players. Like, I want players to be making more money than casters; they deserve it more imo, but it's as much something they (the players/casters) have to work out as it is something the community needs to do.
EDIT: I find it extremely ironic how steff is telling people assumptions are bad and not to make assumptions while holding up his insulting insinuations against TB as fact lololol. Look man, you hate TB and think he's a bad caster, we get it. But clearly he isn't so bad to the general public because if he was, he'd be out of job long ago. Bad casters shouldn't be making a lot of money, agreed. But you have to realize that there's a lot of wannabe casters out there and the market for casters is pretty competitive. If the casters you see regularly, Apollo, Day[9], TB, Husky, djWheat, etc... weren't to some measure competent or even just likable by the viewers they'd be axed long ago. If TB really is as bad as you believe him to be, he'll eventually lose his job. If he keeps his job, then he's probably not as terrible as you say he is, and you're just an anti-fan, which is fine.
Thread has devolved into a caster bashing argument. Just my 2 cents. I don't play sc2, I play many other games, but I just don't have the drive or patience to learn the game and play it. That being said, you can insult me and call me a bronze league player. However, I watch a lot of sc2, I go to TL everyday, I watch players streams all the time, turn of my ad blocker to support them, I pay for premium tickets for almost every major sc2 event because I love watching sc2. I cannot watch sc2 without any commentary because to me it will be boring and I won't understand what's going on. That being said, I cannot watch sc2 with BAD commentary as well, because I'll just be confused, trying to understand what's going on with the game while simultaneously trying to understand what the hell the caster is talking about. So some of you so called 'Grand master League' posters can insult the casters, belittle them and say that their work is easy and anyone can do it, but I disagree as a consumer of sc2 content and not a player. Not all of us here have such in depth understanding of them game, we need casters to help us better understand what's going on.
I think homestory cup has proved that when professional players also casts it becomes a lot more interesting, not to take anything away from the current "popular" casters but their mistakes when making analysis can be quite annoying
I think if you're gonna start getting good deals for casting you should put a little bit more effort in learning the game and at least get to high master (which really isn't hard once you've put enough volume in)
I personally enjoy day9/tastosis best and I wish iNcontrol would try casting again instead cuz I thought he was doing a great job... Orb is also surprisingly quite decent so keep it up
So, I loath to defend Slasher, who is a human being I don't particularly care for, but I think his point was:
A recently retired player is a better caster than a currently playing player, as a currently playing player has to divide his time between practicing playing, and practicing being a caster.
I do NOT think he was trying to say that full time casters who were _never_ players are better.
do you really think a silver level caster who doesn't know anything about the game and shouts in an over emphasised English accent would have made it
So these aren't insulting assumptions?
For the sake of this thread and my nerves I will say that again without a question mark. I don't want to encourage more posts because we will not come to any fruitful result. So here we go:
they are different to assumptions, the assumption is on your part that he would have made it without a carry over fan base from other games.
Just stop. You are making a fool out of yourself. Your OPINION is that you prefer analytical casting. Your so called "forum goers" OPINION is that that they prefer analytical casting. So TB isn't your cup of tea. Why do you feel the need to get on a forum and continue to lay fallacy after fallacy towards a frickin caster who you barely know anything about like you are the king of England (apparently your word is law?)
TB is a play-by-play caster. He doesn't claim to have top tier knowledge about the game. Why do so many people like you insist on coming into a thread about ANALYTICAL CASTING and derailing this thread into a spew of hateful comments towards a PLAY BY PLAY caster...
On January 05 2012 12:44 ReignFayth wrote: wtf is a playbyplay caster...
The person during a televised or radio cast that describes quite literally what is going on in the match/game. Their job is to mainly add excitement to the cast. hence, "HES GOING FOR THE GOAL. HE SHOOTS. HE SCORES!!!!!!!!!!!!!". You're from Canada right Fayth? Every good hockey cast has to have an exciting play by play commentator. In my opinion at least.
edit: Imagine if you were a hockey pro. You probably wouldn't care too much for the play by play caster either like you do in SC2. A person like me who plays the game on an average level obviously isn't going to be annoyed as much when a caster makes an analytical mistake.
guys who have not watch the previous homestorycup, when players come into casting, the quality of casting you get is way much better den most of the casters out there, even with oGsMC casting with his belowpar english, it is still so much better with his insights and analysis. be sure to check out this coming homestory cup and you will know what im saying
This recent twitter complaining by HuK about players being underpaid is funny. Some guy basically asked him on twitter how do you recognize being underpaid and his answer indicated that deserved pay is determined by market forces. If it is so then casters get what they deserve already and players get exactly what they deserve. If you would want to determine deserved pay by some other criteria, the only reasonable way is to use utility to society and in that case all players AND casters are already overpaid as they should be earning less than a cleaning lady (I am slightly exaggerating, but not much).
You cannot have a cake and eat it too. Either deserved pay is determined by market forces and then all complaints outside of salary negotiations are meaningless. Or deserved pay is based on some societal utility and then HuK should get 20000/year at best. Of course the whole twitter drama might be actually PR stunt to influence salary negotiations and then it is understandable
On January 05 2012 12:53 ReignFayth wrote: but I find Day9 to be very entertaining and his overall analysis are a lot better... shouldn't they aim for both?
During most sports casts the play by play commentator is almost always has a strong broadcasting background. The analytical caster on the other hand is almost always a retired player. When Day9/Husky cast people like to point out that Husky talks A LOT. However, husky is doing the play by play of what is unfolding in the game. Day9 exists to analyze the different plays that occur throughout the cast. This model has been used for decades
edit: But yes your right, day9 can indeed fill both roles. However, in my opinion I don't believe it is necessary as long as the casting duo plays their roles correctly.
On January 05 2012 12:53 ReignFayth wrote: but I find Day9 to be very entertaining and his overall analysis are a lot better... shouldn't they aim for both?
During most sports casts the play by play commentator is almost always has a strong broadcasting background. The analytical caster on the other hand is almost always a retired player. When Day9/Husky cast people like to point out that Husky talks A LOT. However, husky is doing the play by play of what is unfolding in the game. Day9 exists to analyze the different plays that occur throughout the cast. This model has been used for decades
edit: But yes your right, day9 can indeed fill both roles. However, in my opinion I don't believe it is necessary as long as the casting duo plays their roles correctly.
I think this is the biggest mistake people make, comparing SC2 commentary to real Sports. I'm not saying the role of play-by-play and expert commentary shouldn't exist and aren't good roles to fill in SC2, but I think it might be a false division or creation of roles. Anytime I watch sports, I more or less pay 0 attention to the commentator, the commentators are often just competely silent at different points as well, SC2 is entirely different. Granted, I think in the long run, if SC2 keeps growing, and things like BarCrafts and other social gatherings become more popular, I think it may become more like real sports, where you don't really pay attention to the commentary, when I've been to BarCrafts I really don't listen to the commentary either !_!.
On January 05 2012 12:53 ReignFayth wrote: but I find Day9 to be very entertaining and his overall analysis are a lot better... shouldn't they aim for both?
During most sports casts the play by play commentator is almost always has a strong broadcasting background. The analytical caster on the other hand is almost always a retired player. When Day9/Husky cast people like to point out that Husky talks A LOT. However, husky is doing the play by play of what is unfolding in the game. Day9 exists to analyze the different plays that occur throughout the cast. This model has been used for decades
edit: But yes your right, day9 can indeed fill both roles. However, in my opinion I don't believe it is necessary as long as the casting duo plays their roles correctly.
I think this is the biggest mistake people make, comparing SC2 commentary to real Sports. I'm not saying the role of play-by-play and expert commentary shouldn't exist and aren't good roles to fill in SC2, but I think it might be a false division or creation of roles. Anytime I watch sports, I more or less pay 0 attention to the commentator, the commentators are often just competely silent at different points as well, SC2 is entirely different. Granted, I think in the long run, if SC2 keeps growing, and things like BarCrafts and other social gatherings become more popular, I think it may become more like real sports, where you don't really pay attention to the commentary, when I've been to BarCrafts I really don't listen to the commentary either !_!.
I was waiting for someone to raise this point ^_^ SC2 is a game and Hockey is a sport, but a game as well. There are strategies in a game like hockey that casual viewers like myself probably couldn't even begin to understand. When Naniwa 4 gates Nestea we can equate that to a forward in Hockey shooting for the game winning goal. Also quite similarly, both can be commentated in the same fashion. For example, "Naniwa gets another warp-in and Nestea GG's!" *analytical caster describes the intricacies that went into the 4gate play (lol)*. "Backstrom passes the puck to ovechkin! OVECHKIN SCORES IN OVERTIME!!!" *analytical caster describes the intricacies that went into the game winning goal*
In terms of casting, both can be commentated in the same fashion.
the only problem is that there are so few really good casters right now. that's why they get paid so damn much. simple supply and demand. bitching about it won't fix the problem. won't settle itself until you have an influx of amazing ex-player casters or some of the journeymen casters out there step up their game
I feel foreign players are over paid adn Korean players are under paid. Any foreign player complaining about how much they make should really look at why they're making so much. The top paid foreign players are nowhere near as good as the top tier Korean players who are basically playing for room and board.
Without the Korean players, MLG, DH, IPL, NASL (llok at NASL now compared to when they had Korean participants) etc etc would be nowhere near the size they are now. Quit complaining about your wage, you could always be playing MLG in a back room with fold out tables again.
And I don't see why HuK is complaining. When he first went to Korea I would watch his stream and he always had a little message going across the bottom asking for donations. Apparently he liked pizza
Be thankful for what you are getting paid now. 2-3 years from now you might not have a contract at all.
On January 05 2012 12:53 ReignFayth wrote: but I find Day9 to be very entertaining and his overall analysis are a lot better... shouldn't they aim for both?
During most sports casts the play by play commentator is almost always has a strong broadcasting background. The analytical caster on the other hand is almost always a retired player. When Day9/Husky cast people like to point out that Husky talks A LOT. However, husky is doing the play by play of what is unfolding in the game. Day9 exists to analyze the different plays that occur throughout the cast. This model has been used for decades
edit: But yes your right, day9 can indeed fill both roles. However, in my opinion I don't believe it is necessary as long as the casting duo plays their roles correctly.
I think this is the biggest mistake people make, comparing SC2 commentary to real Sports. I'm not saying the role of play-by-play and expert commentary shouldn't exist and aren't good roles to fill in SC2, but I think it might be a false division or creation of roles. Anytime I watch sports, I more or less pay 0 attention to the commentator, the commentators are often just competely silent at different points as well, SC2 is entirely different. Granted, I think in the long run, if SC2 keeps growing, and things like BarCrafts and other social gatherings become more popular, I think it may become more like real sports, where you don't really pay attention to the commentary, when I've been to BarCrafts I really don't listen to the commentary either !_!.
I was waiting for someone to raise this point ^_^ SC2 is a game and Hockey is a sport, but a game as well. There are strategies in a game like hockey that casual viewers like myself probably couldn't even begin to understand. When Naniwa 4 gates Nestea we can equate that to a forward in Hockey shooting for the game winning goal. Also quite similarly, both can be commentated in the same fashion. For example, "Naniwa gets another warp-in and Nestea GG's!" *analytical caster describes the intricacies that went into the 4gate play (lol)*. "Backstrom passes the puck to ovechkin! OVECHKIN SCORES IN OVERTIME!!!" *analytical caster describes the intricacies that went into the game winning goal*
In terms of casting, both can be commentated in the same fashion.
There are though also differences. In hockey you do not really need an observer, it is a slight plus to have someone who directs the camera, but you can see a whole playing field at once without losing much of the action. That is of course not true of SC. And related to that is the fact that it is much easier to watch a hockey game without knowing the intricacies of what the players are doing as the actual action is closely matched with what you see. In SC there is much looser link between what you see and what is "actually" happening in the game. In my experience in sports the only use for commentators for me is that they create "atmosphere" with their commentating, I actually do not really care about what they are saying and I could care less about analytical commentator in sports. On the other hand I could not imagine having similar experience in watching SC match without listening to the commentators or not having analytical caster.
I think the reason is that SC is part way between sport games and chess. In chess you do not really care too much about any play-by-play commentator, but if you are not high level GM you appreciate analytical commentary. SC is just somewhat more like sport in that there actually is action and physical skill plays a role, but deeper strategy plays bigger role than in sports.
Basically my point is that unlike sports where play-by-play is more important, in SC analytical side is just necessary even for casual viewers at least to some degree. Pure play-by-play is just taking from the game too much as the game is too much defined by strategy compared to sport games. So even the commentator with play-by-play role HAS to be in part analytical commentator at least on some satisfactory level.
Btw all the above are my opinions based on my personal observations. I am not saying that it is necessarily so, but just to note, noone actually can pretend to know for sure as that would require some rather extensive statistical studies that I doubt were done
Question for any people watching Korean BW, I know they often use trios of commentators. Do they have purely play-by-play one or are all of them at least to some degree analytical commentators (former players/coaches) ? How does the division of labor work there? I am asking as that is basically the only real-life empirical data available on the topic.
I have to admit the casters do kind of act like rockstars come the end of an event... this sort of brings back memories of "the couch" where casters that had nothing to do with that match were essentially repeating what the viewer just watched and the actual casters of that match just spoke about. I think they need to remember that they are there to raise the event and not themselves above it.
On November 30 2011 08:52 Soleron wrote: I like being told what is happening by a play-by-play caster even though I could look for myself. It makes it so I'm watching a sport instead of playing a mental chess problem. The audience's "part" is to feel the tension, cheer for a player, and so forth. The casters need to give me all the information, both play-by-play and analytical, so I can feel the right thing.
^This. There are games when a good chunk of the tension i feel is from (in)experienced (read. terrible players) casters totally ignoring pivotal moments/movements/decisions, while focusing on irrelevant minutia.
I think the more important distinction (in terms of sticking to their roles) is not between players and analytical casters, it is between analytical and play by play casters.
One needs charisma and overall likability along with marginal to good knowledge of the game, the other needs extensive knowledge of and experience with the game along with marginal to good charisma/communication skills.
If this balance is maintained, and the casters don't transgress their roles (ahem, HD, ahem), it makes the audience, as stated above, 'feel the right thing'.
Edit. I see no reason at all not to have pro players in the analytical role, as long as they are paired with a great play by play guy and are not excruciatingly inarticulate.
i look at it as theoretical game analysis vs applied game analysis
TIP TOP casters(talking artosis, day 9... close but he generally prefers to simplify things) are probably better at this theoretical analysis
but they have no way near the execution and split second decision making , knowledge of the metagame between two players/ map + mu specific knowledge, etc. that pros have
As a player myself i LOVE when top players cast : example: idra's occasional commentary
but i feel its even more important to have someone who is professional at entertaining , because lets face it no one really cares about stupid u are if u can tell a good joke and keep cool in front of 10,000+ people
Also what soleron said is pretty spot -on , BUT honestly any player can do a play by play, better than any "top caster"
and great speech and personality isn't something that is crazy out of reach for a player to do. if anything u can learn those things far faster and easier than becoming a sc2 pro which brings me back to HuKs argument that if players knew what was good for them, they would all switch to casting , provided they care about money.
I used to love Day9. Watched the daily whenever I could. I can't put my finger on when it happened exactly, but in the last 6-8 months his casting style has changed to the point where with a few exceptions (he is ok with wheat) he is constantly interrupting or talking over his cocaster. His voice goes from whispering to shouting seemingly every other sentence, and the whole cult of Day 9 thing where fanboys come out of the woodwork to defend him for the slightest criticism from anyone is getting tiring. I agree 100% with what Idra said on ITG about a month ago.
Day 9 has done a ton for this game, and I've seen Daily 100, he genuinely loves gaming, so it is hard to be so critical of him. These events need to wake up and see they don't need to pay someone a 20k appearance fee, there are plenty of good (and IMO at this point in time better) casters who will work for far less. I'm not advocating having players cast all the tournaments etc... I agree with Total Biscuit you need professional casters, and it sounds like most of them will work for reasonable rates. Sometimes I really wonder who is giving these tournaments advice about how much they should shell out to get some specific caster. When your paying an appearance fee larger than your prize pool to a caster there is something wrong with the business model.
I think certain casters deserve all the money they get, namely Day[9], Artosis, Tasteless, and a few others not because of their experience per say, but because they are personalities. I'm not saying that their analytic knowledge of the game isn't needed, it is and I love it! I'm just saying that they should also get a little extra due to their personal traits! Isn't that why we all love the interactions between the players just as much as we love the wealth of knowledge celebrated by State of the Game?
On January 05 2012 12:55 mcc wrote: This recent twitter complaining by HuK about players being underpaid is funny. Some guy basically asked him on twitter how do you recognize being underpaid and his answer indicated that deserved pay is determined by market forces. If it is so then casters get what they deserve already and players get exactly what they deserve. If you would want to determine deserved pay by some other criteria, the only reasonable way is to use utility to society and in that case all players AND casters are already overpaid as they should be earning less than a cleaning lady (I am slightly exaggerating, but not much).
You cannot have a cake and eat it too. Either deserved pay is determined by market forces and then all complaints outside of salary negotiations are meaningless. Or deserved pay is based on some societal utility and then HuK should get 20000/year at best. Of course the whole twitter drama might be actually PR stunt to influence salary negotiations and then it is understandable
You can have a situation where people are being paid more than market forces should dictate when only a few companies do the payouts, and they all get their advice from similar place. I'm not saying this is in fact what is going on, but it does happen, just look at Hollywood.
On January 05 2012 14:58 Flamingo777 wrote: I think certain casters deserve all the money they get, namely Day[9], Artosis, Tasteless, and a few others not because of their experience per say, but because they are personalities. I'm not saying that their analytic knowledge of the game isn't needed, it is and I love it! I'm just saying that they should also get a little extra due to their personal traits! Isn't that why we all love the interactions between the players just as much as we love the wealth of knowledge celebrated by State of the Game?
Although I have become increasingly annoyed with Day 9s casting I agree with you in that the onus is on the companies paying them. With more money going into casters than players they are clearly signaling they are in it for the short term, they are not trying to grow/sustain the player base (note I said players, not viewers, they obviously want those to grow). I don't (and shouldn't) expect the casters to turn down money being thrown their way.
On January 05 2012 12:55 mcc wrote: This recent twitter complaining by HuK about players being underpaid is funny. Some guy basically asked him on twitter how do you recognize being underpaid and his answer indicated that deserved pay is determined by market forces. If it is so then casters get what they deserve already and players get exactly what they deserve. If you would want to determine deserved pay by some other criteria, the only reasonable way is to use utility to society and in that case all players AND casters are already overpaid as they should be earning less than a cleaning lady (I am slightly exaggerating, but not much).
You cannot have a cake and eat it too. Either deserved pay is determined by market forces and then all complaints outside of salary negotiations are meaningless. Or deserved pay is based on some societal utility and then HuK should get 20000/year at best. Of course the whole twitter drama might be actually PR stunt to influence salary negotiations and then it is understandable
You can have a situation where people are being paid more than market forces should dictate when only a few companies do the payouts, and they all get their advice from similar place. I'm not saying this is in fact what is going on, but it does happen, just look at Hollywood.
Such distortions, if they persist for a long time, suggest that the model you base your prediction on what the market forces should dictate is flawed or too simplified. How do you know there is market for more companies and how do you know they use some kind of mysterious source of advice to decide caster's pay. I would expect they try to get casters they want and that will maximize their viewership and try to balance it out with the pay the caster requests. Standard market behaviour.
I am looking at Hollywood and see market at work ?
On January 05 2012 14:53 Duravi wrote: I used to love Day9. Watched the daily whenever I could. I can't put my finger on when it happened exactly, but in the last 6-8 months his casting style has changed to the point where with a few exceptions (he is ok with wheat) he is constantly interrupting or talking over his cocaster. His voice goes from whispering to shouting seemingly every other sentence, and the whole cult of Day 9 thing where fanboys come out of the woodwork to defend him for the slightest criticism from anyone is getting tiring. I agree 100% with what Idra said on ITG about a month ago.
Day 9 has done a ton for this game, and I've seen Daily 100, he genuinely loves gaming, so it is hard to be so critical of him. These events need to wake up and see they don't need to pay someone a 20k appearance fee, there are plenty of good (and IMO at this point in time better) casters who will work for far less. I'm not advocating having players cast all the tournaments etc... I agree with Total Biscuit you need professional casters, and it sounds like most of them will work for reasonable rates. Sometimes I really wonder who is giving these tournaments advice about how much they should shell out to get some specific caster. When your paying an appearance fee larger than your prize pool to a caster there is something wrong with the business model.
First why are we actually trusting the 20k number, it is rumour, might be true, might not. Anyway, why are you assuming that the events did not make the cost-benefit calculation already and found out it is actually worth it to pay that sum ? Your statement about there being casters better than Day9 is subjective, the only objective value from the point of view of the tournament is depending on the viewers they attract and their cost. And if Day9/Tastosis bring enough additional viewers to offset their prize why is anything wrong with the business model ? Unless you present detailed cost/benefit analysis all this is subjective and pointless.
On January 05 2012 14:58 Flamingo777 wrote: I think certain casters deserve all the money they get, namely Day[9], Artosis, Tasteless, and a few others not because of their experience per say, but because they are personalities. I'm not saying that their analytic knowledge of the game isn't needed, it is and I love it! I'm just saying that they should also get a little extra due to their personal traits! Isn't that why we all love the interactions between the players just as much as we love the wealth of knowledge celebrated by State of the Game?
Although I have become increasingly annoyed with Day 9s casting I agree with you in that the onus is on the companies paying them. With more money going into casters than players they are clearly signaling they are in it for the short term, they are not trying to grow/sustain the player base (note I said players, not viewers, they obviously want those to grow). I don't (and shouldn't) expect the casters to turn down money being thrown their way.
That makes no sense. It is not a job of tournaments to directly support the growth of player base. Sponsors are there to do that. Even if you increased prize money using all the caster's salaries you would not achieve much in that area as it would be still far too little to do that. Tournaments support growth of the player base by creating and satisfying demand of viewers for players. And the best way to do that is to increase the numbers of viewers and it seems the companies think that specific casters are the way to go. Also I doubt they just offer them so much money, I think there is some negotiation where the caster states his demands. And tournaments seem to be ok with that. Again market at work.
And if you do not like that, the onus is not on companies, but on you to instead watch tournaments where casters are paid less thus influencing the process in the only way you actually can (apart from convincing others to do the same).
There is something fundamentally wrong with a caster making more than the first place winner in an event, especially when the caster's job is fully dependant on the player. I mean you can have a tournament without casters, but you can't have a tournament without players.
On January 05 2012 16:38 ptrpb wrote: There is something fundamentally wrong with a caster making more than the first place winner in an event, especially when the caster's job is fully dependant on the player. I mean you can have a tournament without casters, but you can't have a tournament without players.
You mean like worker in the hockey sticks factory in China having less than a hockey player ?
Just stop. You are making a fool out of yourself. Your OPINION is that you prefer analytical casting. Your so called "forum goers" OPINION is that that they prefer analytical casting. So TB isn't your cup of tea. Why do you feel the need to get on a forum and continue to lay fallacy after fallacy towards a frickin caster who you barely know anything about like you are the king of England (apparently your word is law?)
TB is a play-by-play caster. He doesn't claim to have top tier knowledge about the game. Why do so many people like you insist on coming into a thread about ANALYTICAL CASTING and derailing this thread into a spew of hateful comments towards a PLAY BY PLAY caster...
Because TB himself came into the thread and started defending casters thats why, it was in direct response to his posting
Just stop. You are making a fool out of yourself. Your OPINION is that you prefer analytical casting. Your so called "forum goers" OPINION is that that they prefer analytical casting. So TB isn't your cup of tea. Why do you feel the need to get on a forum and continue to lay fallacy after fallacy towards a frickin caster who you barely know anything about like you are the king of England (apparently your word is law?)
TB is a play-by-play caster. He doesn't claim to have top tier knowledge about the game. Why do so many people like you insist on coming into a thread about ANALYTICAL CASTING and derailing this thread into a spew of hateful comments towards a PLAY BY PLAY caster...
Because TB himself came into the thread and started defending casters thats why, it was in direct response to his posting
try reading the thread next time.
So because TB is defending the casters, that means you're allowed to bash him? Nah I don't think so
On January 05 2012 12:44 ReignFayth wrote: wtf is a playbyplay caster...
If you don't know basic sports commentary definitions, you probably aren't in a position to knowledgeably discuss commentary.
There is something fundamentally wrong with a caster making more than the first place winner in an event, especially when the caster's job is fully dependant on the player. I mean you can have a tournament without casters, but you can't have a tournament without players.
Common misconception, eSports would not exist in it's current form without casters. The money would not be there because the audience would not be there. eSports right now is very much reliant on casters and has been since beta, to bring in the audience required to justify the sponsorship dollars invested in the tournaments and provide the adequate return to ensure future investment continues. There is a synergy between players and casters that must exist for eSports to continue to function at the level it's at right now. The casual fans are what drives the scene forward, they outnumber the hardcore fans.
Its a shame totalbiscuit is "championing" the caster and not some decent caster because if him being silver and not knowing anything about the games hes casting didn't ruin esports taking some money away from casters certainly wont either.
It would be wise not to confuse a rabid world of warcraft fanbase for actually being a worthwhile good added value caster, most forum goers I know (from various areas) would rather mute the stream than listen to something you cast.
Good casters add a lot of value to Sc2 but I agree the crap casters could get paid a whole lot less and have it distributed amongst the players, the less we reward the bottom tier of casters the better the entire experience will become for us all.
You're too busy being a fucking idiot to have any idea what you're talking about and you probably shouldn't be pissing on the only caster who gives the vast majority of his earnings to the players if you don't want to seem like a colossal hypocrite. I do hope you attend an iSeries at some point, I'd like to see whether or not you'd have the balls to say that to my face. You are off to a stellar start on this forum, every post you've made his been dedicated to hating on me. You'll go far here.
On January 05 2012 23:16 TotalBiscuit wrote: Common misconception, eSports would not exist in it's current form without casters. The money would not be there because the audience would not be there. eSports right now is very much reliant on casters and has been since beta, to bring in the audience required to justify the sponsorship dollars invested in the tournaments and provide the adequate return to ensure future investment continues. There is a synergy between players and casters that must exist for eSports to continue to
The very idea that this might be true scares the shit out of me.
It shouldn't be that way. It should be about the game and the players and the competition. People lifting trophies. People wanting to be like Huk. People cheering on their favourite player and Sponsors wanting to harness that emotion and hopefully discretionary dollar.
But it's not. That's so depressing
I'm gonna stick my head in the sand. Don't mind me. I mute the majority of tournament streams nowadays anyway.
On January 05 2012 23:16 TotalBiscuit wrote: Common misconception, eSports would not exist in it's current form without casters. The money would not be there because the audience would not be there. eSports right now is very much reliant on casters and has been since beta, to bring in the audience required to justify the sponsorship dollars invested in the tournaments and provide the adequate return to ensure future investment continues. There is a synergy between players and casters that must exist for eSports to continue to
The very idea that this might be true scares the shit out of me.
It shouldn't be that way. It should be about the game and the players and the competition. People lifting trophies. People wanting to be like Huk. People cheering on their favourite player and Sponsors wanting to harness that emotion and hopefully discretionary dollar.
But it's not. That's so depressing
I'm gonna stick my head in the sand. Don't mind me. I mute the majority of tournament streams nowadays anyway.
No, it's not. It should be and eventually it will be, but right now, it's not. Players don't have large enough fanbases yet and considering the volatility of SC2 where a single game can knock a favourite out of a tournament entirely, the only constant you get is the casting team.
Some casters do in fact, have larger fanbases than players, it's been this way from the very start. This same argument was had in beta about the importance of HD/Husky.
On January 05 2012 23:16 TotalBiscuit wrote: Common misconception, eSports would not exist in it's current form without casters. The money would not be there because the audience would not be there. eSports right now is very much reliant on casters and has been since beta, to bring in the audience required to justify the sponsorship dollars invested in the tournaments and provide the adequate return to ensure future investment continues. There is a synergy between players and casters that must exist for eSports to continue to
The very idea that this might be true scares the shit out of me.
It shouldn't be that way. It should be about the game and the players and the competition. People lifting trophies. People wanting to be like Huk. People cheering on their favourite player and Sponsors wanting to harness that emotion and hopefully discretionary dollar.
But it's not. That's so depressing
I'm gonna stick my head in the sand. Don't mind me. I mute the majority of tournament streams nowadays anyway.
No, it's not. It should be and eventually it will be, but right now, it's not. Players don't have large enough fanbases yet and considering the volatility of SC2 where a single game can knock a favourite out of a tournament entirely, the only constant you get is the casting team.
Some casters do in fact, have larger fanbases than players, it's been this way from the very start. This same argument was had in beta about the importance of HD/Husky.
think the most sad part is that you dont actually have to be good to be a popular caster / ' succesful ' caster. while you havet o dedicate everything as a player. Most of the casters dont even know about the game more than to a silver league level.
Huk makes an interesting comment that I think is the bread and butter of the debate. The casters in most cases are in better situations than the players. It seems like the casters are becoming the staple of eSports instead of the players (at least in the west). A ton of importance is put on the casting. This is probably due to the casters having the ability to project a certain perspective and create excitement about a match, when the same match is commentated by someone else, it can seem like an entirely different game.
So IMO, it depends on the individual that's casting and the audience that receives them. Different demographics have their own preferences. Some casters have personalities that are geared towards professionalism and growth of the industry and others simply prefer to joke and banter their way about with sub-par commentary. It absolutely helps if they are, or were a high level player but if they are articulate and can maintain logical analysis at a novice level, I for one am happy. The players are the real important factors and need to be recognized as such. Also, credit has to be given to the observers. Big props to the GOMtv observer... Love that guy lol.
On January 06 2012 00:20 Naniwa wrote: think the most sad part is that you dont actually have to be good to be a popular caster / ' succesful ' caster. while you havet o dedicate everything as a player. Most of the casters dont even know about the game more than to a silver league level.
I'm not going to disagree with you on that. I exemplify what you've just described, I do SC2 as a part-time hobby, do events because it's fun as opposed to for the pay and play when I can be bothered to and when the game doesn't piss me off to the point where I'd rather stab myself in the kneecaps than queue for ladder one more time.
You hear a lot of people talk about Day9 inspiring almost a cult following. It's not almost, it is exactly that and he's not the only one. In reality, an entire generation of online media personalities have done exactly the same thing. Quality of content isn't relevant right now, the person delivering the content is. People get attached to particular personalities to the point where it doesn't even matter what they say, they'll blindly follow it. It's dangerous and it's without question not a good thing for anyone but the broadcaster. Do we exploit it? Definitely, whether knowingly or otherwise. We reiterate catchphrases because it's beneficial to do so. We play up to the aspects of our character that we know the audience wants to see. Our knowledge level really isn't a factor because the people who really care about that don't have the influence to matter on a statistical level.
This is just how things are right now. It should change, but it's not going to yet. There are still people flooding into the scene every day and they do so because of particular casters. Casters have always been the gateway to SC2 broadcast eSports, to the point where there was for the longest time this huge subset of the viewerbase that did nothing but watch HD and Husky. They never tuned into a live tournament, never watched a Day9 daily, they just got their content from those 2 channels. That is changing, more and more people are tuning into tournaments, watching VoDs depending on who is playing, not who is casting, but there the popularity of a tournament stream as well as it's live attendance (which is starting to become a factor in terms of selling tickets to larger events) are largely influenced by who is casting the event. The direction we are going in is a good one and gradually focus is shifting, there are already players such as yourself who are directly influencing how many people are watching the stream because you are playing. When your game is on, more people tune in. More and more players have that clout now, as opposed to say, Dreamhack Summer 2011 where IdrA vs MC got more views than the actual finals did.
If i compare soccer commentary to SC2 they don't really match. Even the swedish commentators (small country) both the play by play caster and the expert have huge knowledge of the sport. It's not one guy who kinda shoots from the hip and one guy with actual game knowledge.
It's more like one guy with knowledge of all players, histories, stats, and strategy and and one guy with deeper "hands on" knowledge of strategies and mental states. In SC2 we kinda have to settle for average atm.
On January 06 2012 00:34 karpo wrote: If i compare soccer commentary to SC2 they don't really match. Even the swedish commentators (small country) both the play by play caster and the expert have huge knowledge of the sport. It's not one guy who kinda shoots from the hip and one guy with actual game knowledge.
It's more like one guy with knowledge of all players, histories, stats, and strategy and and one guy with deeper "hands on" knowledge of strategies and mental states. In SC2 we kinda have to settle for average atm.
Dutch football commentary is awful, with just one person doing play-by-play, no analysis. I've often hoped they would have audio options where you could hear the sounds of the audience and the game, but mute the commentary, since the first just adds so much to the atmosphere.
Back during the Warcraft 3 days, I would often download the most highly rated replays and watch through them, then have a look at the comments about that replay. It was fun, but I never really do it for Starcraft 2, I rely on casters to do analysis for me and if I'm in the mood for Starcraft 2 there's almost always a stream or tournament going on to watch. I'm not sure why that is, since I often don't really enjoy commentary even, maybe I just got used to it as background noise or so.
I think maybe if Blizzard adds a system where you can actually watch the game in-game live (i.e. they have it so you can have infinite people in a game, just as spectators) then maybe a lot of people will watch more actively and look through the game themselves, instead of relying on someone. I don't know though, maybe I would, but I guess too many people like the E-sportsTV aspect of it, where you can just have it all be a passive thing you turn on and watch. And casters are very important to make that entertaining.
On January 05 2012 23:16 TotalBiscuit wrote: Common misconception, eSports would not exist in it's current form without casters. The money would not be there because the audience would not be there. eSports right now is very much reliant on casters and has been since beta, to bring in the audience required to justify the sponsorship dollars invested in the tournaments and provide the adequate return to ensure future investment continues. There is a synergy between players and casters that must exist for eSports to continue to
The very idea that this might be true scares the shit out of me.
It shouldn't be that way. It should be about the game and the players and the competition. People lifting trophies. People wanting to be like Huk. People cheering on their favourite player and Sponsors wanting to harness that emotion and hopefully discretionary dollar.
But it's not. That's so depressing
I'm gonna stick my head in the sand. Don't mind me. I mute the majority of tournament streams nowadays anyway.
No, it's not. It should be and eventually it will be, but right now, it's not. Players don't have large enough fanbases yet and considering the volatility of SC2 where a single game can knock a favourite out of a tournament entirely, the only constant you get is the casting team.
Some casters do in fact, have larger fanbases than players, it's been this way from the very start. This same argument was had in beta about the importance of HD/Husky.
think the most sad part is that you dont actually have to be good to be a popular caster / ' succesful ' caster. while you havet o dedicate everything as a player. Most of the casters dont even know about the game more than to a silver league level.
Yeah, but you still have to dedicate everything to be a popular caster, even if that dedication is not solely focused 100% on game knowledge.
On January 05 2012 23:16 TotalBiscuit wrote: Common misconception, eSports would not exist in it's current form without casters. The money would not be there because the audience would not be there. eSports right now is very much reliant on casters and has been since beta, to bring in the audience required to justify the sponsorship dollars invested in the tournaments and provide the adequate return to ensure future investment continues. There is a synergy between players and casters that must exist for eSports to continue to
The very idea that this might be true scares the shit out of me.
It shouldn't be that way. It should be about the game and the players and the competition. People lifting trophies. People wanting to be like Huk. People cheering on their favourite player and Sponsors wanting to harness that emotion and hopefully discretionary dollar.
But it's not. That's so depressing
I'm gonna stick my head in the sand. Don't mind me. I mute the majority of tournament streams nowadays anyway.
No, it's not. It should be and eventually it will be, but right now, it's not. Players don't have large enough fanbases yet and considering the volatility of SC2 where a single game can knock a favourite out of a tournament entirely, the only constant you get is the casting team.
Some casters do in fact, have larger fanbases than players, it's been this way from the very start. This same argument was had in beta about the importance of HD/Husky.
think the most sad part is that you dont actually have to be good to be a popular caster / ' succesful ' caster. while you havet o dedicate everything as a player. Most of the casters dont even know about the game more than to a silver league level.
Yeah, but you still have to dedicate everything to be a popular caster, even if that dedication is not solely focused 100% on game knowledge.
You're too busy being a fucking idiot to have any idea what you're talking about and you probably shouldn't be pissing on the only caster who gives the vast majority of his earnings to the players if you don't want to seem like a colossal hypocrite. I do hope you attend an iSeries at some point, I'd like to see whether or not you'd have the balls to say that to my face. You are off to a stellar start on this forum, every post you've made his been dedicated to hating on me. You'll go far here.
I went as a spec to the last I series, ill quite happily go to the next one and tell if you if you wish, if you want we can have a conversation and I can explain why I think you're a terrible caster.
Its funny how good a job all the players who are dropping into the caster couch at homestory cup are doing eh TB ? something you have said wont happen.
You're too busy being a fucking idiot to have any idea what you're talking about and you probably shouldn't be pissing on the only caster who gives the vast majority of his earnings to the players if you don't want to seem like a colossal hypocrite. I do hope you attend an iSeries at some point, I'd like to see whether or not you'd have the balls to say that to my face. You are off to a stellar start on this forum, every post you've made his been dedicated to hating on me. You'll go far here.
I went as a spec to the last I series, ill quite happily go to the next one and tell if you if you wish, if you want we can have a conversation and I can explain why I think you're a terrible caster.
Its funny how good a job all the players who are dropping into the caster couch at homestory cup are doing eh TB ? something you have said wont happen.
Knowledge > screaming random crap out
Oh please do come up to me next iSeries, I'd be impressed if the guy who registered on TL solely to hate on me had the balls to do so when he's not hiding behind a screen. I'd like to meet such a cunt, see how it acts in real life.
Oh please do come up to me next iSeries, I'd be impressed if the guy who registered on TL solely to hate on me had the balls to do so when he's not hiding behind a screen. I'd like to meet such a cunt, see how it acts in real life.
I registered a long time ago but generally dont do forums any more as there are so many turds on them, I did however call you terrible several times on SA before you stopped posting there (as everyone hates you).
Im an even bigger "cunt" in real life, make sure you bring your top hat and over exaggerated English accent so I can spot you.
PS it must be unfortunate for you not being able to bully or threaten someone into silence like you normal manage too \o/, next up would be some sort of protracted attempt to quit the community with some huge self serving post.
Oh please do come up to me next iSeries, I'd be impressed if the guy who registered on TL solely to hate on me had the balls to do so when he's not hiding behind a screen. I'd like to meet such a cunt, see how it acts in real life.
I registered a long time ago but generally dont do forums any more as there are so many turds on them, I did however call you terrible several times on SA before you stopped posting there (as everyone hates you).
Im an even bigger "cunt" in real life, make sure you bring your top hat and over exaggerated English accent so I can spot you.
Nobody really cares what an ineffectual group of sperging neckbeards thinks about anything.
Do make sure to trim yours.
PS it must be unfortunate for you not being able to bully or threaten someone into silence like you normal manage too \o/, next up would be some sort of protracted attempt to quit the community with some huge self serving post.
You know what the wonderful thing about being vastly more important than you is? Whether or not you continue talking doesn't actually matter in any way. For you, the day I graced you with a response was the greatest day of your life, but for me, it was Thursday.
You're too busy being a fucking idiot to have any idea what you're talking about and you probably shouldn't be pissing on the only caster who gives the vast majority of his earnings to the players if you don't want to seem like a colossal hypocrite. I do hope you attend an iSeries at some point, I'd like to see whether or not you'd have the balls to say that to my face. You are off to a stellar start on this forum, every post you've made his been dedicated to hating on me. You'll go far here.
I went as a spec to the last I series, ill quite happily go to the next one and tell if you if you wish, if you want we can have a conversation and I can explain why I think you're a terrible caster.
Its funny how good a job all the players who are dropping into the caster couch at homestory cup are doing eh TB ? something you have said wont happen.
Knowledge > screaming random crap out
Oh please do come up to me next iSeries, I'd be impressed if the guy who registered on TL solely to hate on me had the balls to do so when he's not hiding behind a screen. I'd like to meet such a cunt, see how it acts in real life.
Why are you so very defensive and easily trolled? You do what you do, how hard can it be to ignore shit like this instead of acting like online tough guy calling people cunts and sprouting the tired of "say that to my face".
You're too busy being a fucking idiot to have any idea what you're talking about and you probably shouldn't be pissing on the only caster who gives the vast majority of his earnings to the players if you don't want to seem like a colossal hypocrite. I do hope you attend an iSeries at some point, I'd like to see whether or not you'd have the balls to say that to my face. You are off to a stellar start on this forum, every post you've made his been dedicated to hating on me. You'll go far here.
I went as a spec to the last I series, ill quite happily go to the next one and tell if you if you wish, if you want we can have a conversation and I can explain why I think you're a terrible caster.
Its funny how good a job all the players who are dropping into the caster couch at homestory cup are doing eh TB ? something you have said wont happen.
Knowledge > screaming random crap out
Oh please do come up to me next iSeries, I'd be impressed if the guy who registered on TL solely to hate on me had the balls to do so when he's not hiding behind a screen. I'd like to meet such a cunt, see how it acts in real life.
Why are you so very defensive and easily trolled? You do what you do, how hard can it be to ignore shit like this instead of acting like online tough guy calling people cunts and sprouting the tired of "say that to my face".
You seem to have mixed up defensive with offensive. He's a cunt, he's toxic to the community, he needs a good kicking. You wanna mistake that for "being trolled" go right ahead. In reality, he is as stupid as he makes himself out to be, he is not pretending, he is not the puppetmaster.
Nobody really cares what an ineffectual group of sperging neckbeards thinks about anything.
Do make sure to trim yours.
I don't think a bald freak who wears a top hat in everyday settings wants to be throwing around comments on physical appearance and its hard to play the you don't care card when your so rabidly posting.
You know what the wonderful thing about being vastly more important than you is? Whether or not you continue talking doesn't actually matter in any way. For you, the day I graced you with a response was the greatest day of your life, but for me, it was Thursday.
Street fighter quotes eh ? what a true legend you are
and well done on being an "important" joke, as someone that has a career I cant say im to bothered if im revered in internet circles any more been there done that got the T shirt.
On January 06 2012 01:44 TotalBiscuit wrote: You know what the wonderful thing about being vastly more important than you is? Whether or not you continue talking doesn't actually matter in any way. For you, the day I graced you with a response was the greatest day of your life, but for me, it was Thursday.
I <3 you TB
My money says this kid is just mad that his half-assed attempt into casting only got his mom and closest friends watching, so he's jealous of the closest person to his dreams (one of the most popular British sc casters). Keep up the good work Total Biscuit, I love your work.
You seem to have mixed up defensive with offensive. He's a cunt, he's toxic to the community, he needs a good kicking. You wanna mistake that for "being trolled" go right ahead. In reality, he is as stupid as he makes himself out to be, he is not pretending, he is not the puppetmaster.
I'm not really I just dislike you, so along with the players killing e-sports for wanting more money im now a toxic cunt for the community because I dislike you ?
When did the "community" put you in charge of how they are feeling ?
As for a good kicking, more threats huh ? I dont think you really want to threaten physical violence with your dimensions really do you ?
On January 06 2012 01:48 steff wrote: I don't think a bald freak who wears a top hat in everyday settings wants to be throwing around comments on physical appearance and its hard to play the you don't care card when your so rabidly posting. .
Nice contradiction there broseph. First you point out that I don't post on SA anymore and then you claim I'm rabidly posting and as such, care. Which is it? Make your addled mind up.
and well done on being an "important" joke, as someone that has a career I cant say im to bothered if im revered in internet circles any more been there done that got the T shirt.
Yes, generally people who have no influence or charisma of any description can't get jobs where their pay is determined by how many people that care about what they have to say. That's why you don't have one.
I'm not really I just dislike you, so along with the players killing e-sports for wanting more money im now a toxic cunt for the community because I dislike you ?
You have contributed nothing to the community other than negativity. Yes that makes you toxic.
When did the "community" put you in charge of how they are feeling ?
I don't need to be in charge of anything to point out that everything you've said on this forum up until this point has been unwelcome, bullshit negativity with no factual basis.
As for a good kicking, more threats huh ? I dont think you really want to threaten physical violence with your dimensions really do you ?
Somehow I doubt I'm dealing with a bodybuilder here. I doubt you're much of a threat.
On January 06 2012 01:50 TotalBiscuit wrote: Nice contradiction there broseph. First you point out that I don't post on SA anymore and then you claim I'm rabidly posting and as such, care. Which is it? Make your addled mind up.
My point was you rabidly posting here, I know you're utterly thick but do try to keep up and read before you roll your face on the keyboard to come up with a hamfisted response.
Yes, generally people who have no influence or charisma of any description can't get jobs where their pay is determined by how many people that care about what they have to say. That's why you don't have one.
Yep you have me dead to rights there I cannot get a job and im incredibly jealous (this is sarcasm btw, normally you dont need to point this out but you have proven yourself to be some special sort of thick), I wish I could be hated by huge parts of the community for how much of a shit caster I am I really do.
On January 06 2012 01:53 steff wrote: My point was you rabidly posting here, I know you're utterly thick but do try to keep up and read before you roll your face on the keyboard to come up with a hamfisted response.
Sorry if you're too retarded to see your own contradictions, but it ain't my problem.
Yep you have me dead to rights there I cannot get a job and im incredibly jealous (this is sarcasm btw, normally you dont need to point this out but you have proven yourself to be some special sort of thick), I wish I could be hated by huge parts of the community for how much of a shit caster I am I really do.
Ahh, delusional as well, excellent. Who was it that was telling me I didn't speak for the community again, then the next post you do just that? No big surprise, more hypocrisy from Captain Fuckstick over here.
You're too busy being a fucking idiot to have any idea what you're talking about and you probably shouldn't be pissing on the only caster who gives the vast majority of his earnings to the players if you don't want to seem like a colossal hypocrite. I do hope you attend an iSeries at some point, I'd like to see whether or not you'd have the balls to say that to my face. You are off to a stellar start on this forum, every post you've made his been dedicated to hating on me. You'll go far here.
I went as a spec to the last I series, ill quite happily go to the next one and tell if you if you wish, if you want we can have a conversation and I can explain why I think you're a terrible caster.
Its funny how good a job all the players who are dropping into the caster couch at homestory cup are doing eh TB ? something you have said wont happen.
Knowledge > screaming random crap out
Oh please do come up to me next iSeries, I'd be impressed if the guy who registered on TL solely to hate on me had the balls to do so when he's not hiding behind a screen. I'd like to meet such a cunt, see how it acts in real life.
Why are you so very defensive and easily trolled? You do what you do, how hard can it be to ignore shit like this instead of acting like online tough guy calling people cunts and sprouting the tired of "say that to my face".
You seem to have mixed up defensive with offensive. He's a cunt, he's toxic to the community, he needs a good kicking. You wanna mistake that for "being trolled" go right ahead. In reality, he is as stupid as he makes himself out to be, he is not pretending, he is not the puppetmaster.
You're being trolled. Even though he might really think that you're a shit caster it's still totally unimportant yet you need to retort with "say that to my face", "neckbeard", and "cunt". Do you really think you've accomplished something or "kicked" him in any way?
You have contributed nothing to the community other than negativity. Yes that makes you toxic.
You seem to think that trolling, abusing and threatening in real life people who dislike your inability to cast while at the same time critiquing players isnt toxic ? ok there superstar.
I don't need to be in charge of anything to point out that everything you've said on this forum up until this point has been unwelcome, bullshit negativity with no factual basis.
you being a bad caster and a terrible person seem to be quite factual from here
Somehow I doubt I'm dealing with a bodybuilder here. I doubt you're much of a threat.
yep well ill make sure I come along to the next I series and then you can asses it there ill look for the 5'8 freak with the top hat.
Sorry if you're too retarded to see your own contradictions, but it ain't my problem.
There is no contradiction in what I said Mr Straw Man, you really need to learn how do this forum stuff you're as bad at this as you are at sc2 and casting
Ahh, delusional as well, excellent. Who was it that was telling me I didn't speak for the community again, then the next post you do just that? No big surprise, more hypocrisy from Captain Fuckstick over here.
I read posts day and night about how much people hate your casting from vast swathes of the community, just relaying what ive seen here
On January 06 2012 01:56 steff wrote: You seem to think that trolling, abusing and threatening in real life people who dislike your inability to cast while at the same time critiquing players isnt toxic ? ok there superstar.
Tell me, what kind of high-functioning delusion is required to allow you to make comments like that and utterly ignore everything you've said up until this point? I can't imagine.
you being a bad caster and a terrible person seem to be quite factual from here
Among the many things you've shown little knowledge about, "facts" is high on the list.
yep well ill make sure I come along to the next I series and then you can asses it there ill look for the 5'8 freak with the top hat.
Not so good with height either I see. Let's see how long you last before everyone kicks the shit out of you for being a colossal cunt.
I read posts day and night about how much people hate your casting from vast swathes of the community, just relaying what ive seen here
You're being trolled. Even though he might really think that you're a shit caster it's still totally unimportant yet you need to retort with "say that to my face", "neckbeard", and "cunt". Do you really think you've accomplished something or "kicked" him in any way?
Worst most unprofessional caster in the buisness acting in an unprofessional manner ? and you act surprised, I thought "im going to fight you unless you shut up" stuff had died out about 10 years ago, but it surfaces again.
I mean this pillar of the community is threatening someone (the wrong person to) with physical violence over forum comments.
On January 06 2012 02:00 steff wrote: Worst most unprofessional caster in the buisness acting in an unprofessional manner ? and you act surprised, I thought "im going to fight you unless you shut up" stuff had died out about 10 years ago, but it surfaces again.
I mean this pillar of the community is threatening someone (the wrong person to) with physical violence over forum comments.
PILLAR
OF
THE
COMMUNITY
It's cute that you think professionalism is defined by what you say to some fuckwit on an internet forum. Not close to being true, but cute.
You're being trolled. Even though he might really think that you're a shit caster it's still totally unimportant yet you need to retort with "say that to my face", "neckbeard", and "cunt". Do you really think you've accomplished something or "kicked" him in any way?
Worst most unprofessional caster in the buisness acting in an unprofessional manner ? and you act surprised, I thought "im going to fight you unless you shut up" stuff had died out about 10 years ago, but it surfaces again.
I mean this pillar of the community is threatening someone (the wrong person to) with physical violence over forum comments.
On January 06 2012 01:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: Tell me, what kind of high-functioning delusion is required to allow you to make comments like that and utterly ignore everything you've said up until this point? I can't imagine.
Straw maning it up
Among the many things you've shown little knowledge about, "facts" is high on the list.
I have a better grasp on them than you do on playing and casting sc2
Not so good with height either I see. Let's see how long you last before everyone kicks the shit out of you for being a colossal cunt.
Oooh so now you are getting "everyone" involved to fight a battle you started ? interesting, a few posts ago I was a scrawney neckbeard you were going to "fill in" now you need a posse interesting.
On January 06 2012 02:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: It's cute that you think professionalism is defined by what you say to some fuckwit on an internet forum. Not close to being true, but cute.
you wouldn't know what professionalism is if it came up to you and slapped you in the face
On January 06 2012 02:02 steff wrote: Straw maning it up
Don't use terms you don't understand and can't even spell. Your wonderful contradictory remarks are clear to see across your short and pointless posting history.
I have a better grasp on them than you do on playing and casting sc2
And yet nobody cares about your opinion on the matter. How is that working out for you?
Oooh so now you are getting "everyone" involved to fight a battle you started ? interesting, a few posts ago I was a scrawney neckbeard you were going to "fill in" now you need a posse interesting.
I don't need anything but good luck stopping them from kicking your ass.
Lets just all go back to making 7$ per game and hoping that you make enough at least for your fare to go home.
Or why not just get paid 50$ a day to cast 12 hours of games? Which includes CS1.6, WC3, and oh, you are suppose to do DoTA too. These are the 100 teams that have signed up. Have fun for the next 3 days.
Yeah guys, very good lets just all go back to 2007 where no casters got paid enough to even travel to a local event, buy lunch for him/herself and then travel home after midnight = no public transport = using whole day's pay for taxi.
All for what? So we could have people to all hate on us when after 5 years you accomplish the slightest of something?
Ok guys.
PS: TB is a great caster and entertainer. Love you John. (and singer. grattis on santa baby)
On January 06 2012 02:05 TotalBiscuit wrote: Don't use terms you don't understand and can't even spell. Your wonderful contradictory remarks are clear to see across your short and pointless posting history.
dont cast games you dont understand, dont post on forums when you dont understand the basics.
And yet nobody cares about your opinion on the matter. How is that working out for you?
you do given your continued rabid posting
I don't need anything but good luck stopping them from kicking your ass.
who is they exactly ? your imaginary friends ? do your sponsors (I assume you must have at least one) like you threatening violence on forums ? is this how to be a professional caster ?
Not that you would know what it takes to be a "professional" anything, apart from twat
On January 06 2012 02:06 kellymilkies wrote: Lets just all go back to making 7$ per game and hoping that you make enough at least for your fare to go home.
Or why not just get paid 50$ a day to cast 12 hours of games? Which includes CS1.6, WC3, and oh, you are suppose to do DoTA too. These are the 100 teams that have signed up. Have fun for the next 3 days.
Yeah guys, very good lets just all go back to 2007 where no casters got paid enough to even travel to a local event, buy lunch for him/herself and then travel home after midnight = no public transport = using whole day's pay for taxi.
All for what? So we could have people to all hate on us when after 5 years you accomplish the slightest of something?
Ok guys.
PS: TB is a great caster and entertainer. Love you John. (and singer. grattis on santa baby)
Haha I've never seen anyone having such a hard time ignoring haters like TB. I have never seen anyone else getting away with so many personal attacks on TL like him either.
There is no point fighting the toxic of this community, you are a caster and casters gets hate and trolls on the internet all the time, it doesn't matter if it's Starcraft, Football or Hockey. You are only hurting when you are fighting people like steff, not helping, because you can't fight it, only ignore. It also makes you look bad.
Make yourself a favour and request a ban on TL if you can't keep your fingers away from fighting on forums.
On January 06 2012 02:16 Termit wrote: Haha I've never seen anyone having such a hard time ignoring haters like TB. I have never seen anyone else getting away with so many personal attacks on TL like him either.
There is no point fighting the toxic of this community, you are a caster and casters gets hate and trolls on the internet all the time, it doesn't matter if it's Starcraft, Football or Hockey. You are only hurting when you are fighting people like steff, not helping, because you can't fight it, only ignore. It also makes you look bad.
Make yourself a favour and request a ban on TL if you can't keep your fingers away from fighting on forums.
meh im really disappointed in people such as TB to even respond to smurf posters like this. People really need to get a thicker skin in this business and if u want to be a professional dont read the forums or respond to trolls just get over it. Man reading this reminded me of the girls i knew in highschool of them being catty, all any of you are doing is just making TL and Sc2 look like a bunch of degenerate whining children. Grow up please
On January 06 2012 02:30 BloodThirsty wrote: meh im really disappointed in people such as TB to even respond to smurf posters like this. People really need to get a thicker skin in this business and if u want to be a professional dont read the forums or respond to trolls just get over it. Man reading this reminded me of the girls i knew in highschool of them being catty, all any of you are doing is just making TL and Sc2 look like a bunch of degenerate whining children. Grow up please
Well, TB said it satisfied him. I guess if it makes him happier there's no harm (apart from getting banned).
Well that was interesting... There's a lot of players, but relatively few willing and able commentators, especially when you want the best commentators. Supply and demand. If the players that are near the top but can't really keep up all became casters, I'm sure it'd be more or less inverse.
Can I just say how interesting it is to me to see such debate on casting compared to other competitive sports (and esports) I followed mlg halo 3 back in the day and was simply stunned they had casters who knew the call outs and wtf was happening, like mind blown.
Yea in football/basketball sometimes you get a moron caster (like espn 2 college football omg >_>) but its usually met with a snide comment while you sip your beer. I don't even think I can name any of the commentators I hate lol.
But In SC2 something different happened. The casters came 1st, and are (in many cases) the only reason a person is watching the game. Like the amount of people who only know HD/Husky is almost brain paining (mkp was messing on EU server and more ppl knew hd husky than fucking marine king!) It really seems, as TB said, that the casters are bigger than the players. Which is kind of rough because being a media personality is less demanding every day than maintaining peak SC2 skill (I think this is objectively true at least) as Naniwa has stated.
I think in a year or 2 this current generation of players (which was WAY bigger in the foreign scene than the last generation BW players) will retire and a bunch will move into casting (in the way that artosis day9 tasteless have and gretorp and Incontrol appear to be following) And those players turned casters will have the large fan base that popular casters have now, combined with extremely high game knowledge. And when we finally have a pool of knowledgable casters to draw from, the most entertaining of those will succeed (see how eventually knowledge will be equal so entertainment matters, now its all about being entertaining knowledge is nbd since very few casters currently have it)
Eventually the casting world will be full of people like day9. Who you instantly want to sit and listen to, who are extremely passionate, and who are extremely knowledgeable.
On January 06 2012 02:06 kellymilkies wrote: Lets just all go back to making 7$ per game and hoping that you make enough at least for your fare to go home.
Or why not just get paid 50$ a day to cast 12 hours of games? Which includes CS1.6, WC3, and oh, you are suppose to do DoTA too. These are the 100 teams that have signed up. Have fun for the next 3 days.
Yeah guys, very good lets just all go back to 2007 where no casters got paid enough to even travel to a local event, buy lunch for him/herself and then travel home after midnight = no public transport = using whole day's pay for taxi.
All for what? So we could have people to all hate on us when after 5 years you accomplish the slightest of something?
Ok guys.
PS: TB is a great caster and entertainer. Love you John. (and singer. grattis on santa baby)
dont think that was the point.
Seriously. Thanks for the complete non-sequitur Kelly.
On January 06 2012 02:30 BloodThirsty wrote: meh im really disappointed in people such as TB to even respond to smurf posters like this. People really need to get a thicker skin in this business and if u want to be a professional dont read the forums or respond to trolls just get over it. Man reading this reminded me of the girls i knew in highschool of them being catty, all any of you are doing is just making TL and Sc2 look like a bunch of degenerate whining children. Grow up please
Well, TB said it satisfied him. I guess if it makes him happier there's no harm (apart from getting banned).
i dont care what TB said, hes in the public eye in the EU scene for casters. What he does and says granted it may just be TL forums but if hes responding on trolls on here what if Sc2 gets bigger and more people troll. Will he just say whatever then if it makes him happier while making everyone else look bad? Just saying its a bad attribute to see from someone who is supposed to be a professional
I think part of the problem is when there's a cult of celebrity around casters, and then sometimes they start to think too highly of themselves.
People like Day9/Tasteless/Artosis, who started out as as players and got where they are from the Broodwar days are a little different, but for most it's a sad state of affairs when people care more about the casters than the players in general anyway.
On January 06 2012 02:06 kellymilkies wrote: Lets just all go back to making 7$ per game and hoping that you make enough at least for your fare to go home.
Or why not just get paid 50$ a day to cast 12 hours of games? Which includes CS1.6, WC3, and oh, you are suppose to do DoTA too. These are the 100 teams that have signed up. Have fun for the next 3 days.
Yeah guys, very good lets just all go back to 2007 where no casters got paid enough to even travel to a local event, buy lunch for him/herself and then travel home after midnight = no public transport = using whole day's pay for taxi.
All for what? So we could have people to all hate on us when after 5 years you accomplish the slightest of something?
Ok guys.
PS: TB is a great caster and entertainer. Love you John. (and singer. grattis on santa baby)
What you are saying has nothing to do with what is being discussed. The issue is not casters being paid, it is casters being paid more than the players, even the ones who win the tournament. Casters should be paid enough to make a living, nobody is disputing that.
One big issue is rights. When Day9 casts a replay of player x he is making money off of that players work, money that the player sees none of. I realize Day9 is doing work as well by adding analysis and commentary, and he should make money from this, but the player should be entitled to an appropriate share. When Day9 does a "Idra Daily", Idra should receive a cut of the stream/youtube revenue. Casters are essentially exploiting the fact that legally Blizzard owns all the replays.
according to a quick google fox sports' Joe Buck makes ~6M/year in salary alone. MLB (one of the sports he covers) average player salary for 2011 was apparently around 3M/season. NFL average player salary is 1.9M for 2011.
I think everyone in eSports deserve more money, but this is not exactly an esports-specific trend.
It doesn't really matter which of the awesome players wins to the audience, because the best person will win usually.
If anything, the casters are more important than the players. A good/bad caster can make or break an event very easily. I've said it before, but it needs a re-hash. This all comes down to supply and demand. The best players can't really afford to abstain from tournaments too much, so nothing will change in the near future.
If top tier players are unhappy about this, they should join in on the casting scene and hope the industry decides it should have valued them higher as players.
TotalBiscuit doesn't mix well with TL at all imo. I can't imagine any member of the staff doing what he did today :S
People love Day9 and Tastosis (apart from there talent) because their passion for this game has been proven before, in the BW days. Totalbiscuit switching from WoW can seem everything but passionate.
On January 06 2012 04:20 JustJonny wrote: according to a quick google fox sports' Joe Buck makes ~6M/year in salary alone. MLB (one of the sports he covers) average player salary for 2011 was apparently around 3M/season. NFL average player salary is 1.9M for 2011.
I think everyone in eSports deserve more money, but this is not exactly an esports-specific trend.
On January 06 2012 04:20 JustJonny wrote: according to a quick google fox sports' Joe Buck makes ~6M/year in salary alone. MLB (one of the sports he covers) average player salary for 2011 was apparently around 3M/season. NFL average player salary is 1.9M for 2011.
I think everyone in eSports deserve more money, but this is not exactly an esports-specific trend.
So do you think Day 9 makes only twice what the average SC2 pro player makes?
no, i have no idea what they make as numbers aren't released (hence thread). I'm just saying there are parallels in other industries.
edit: to be clear i think the vast majority of sc2 pro players do not earn enough money. i just disagree with the 'players should always make more than casters' opinion.
On January 06 2012 04:20 JustJonny wrote: according to a quick google fox sports' Joe Buck makes ~6M/year in salary alone. MLB (one of the sports he covers) average player salary for 2011 was apparently around 3M/season. NFL average player salary is 1.9M for 2011.
I think everyone in eSports deserve more money, but this is not exactly an esports-specific trend.
So do you think Day 9 makes only twice what the average SC2 pro player makes?
no, i have no idea what they make as numbers aren't released (hence thread). I'm just saying there are parallels in other industries.
edit: to be clear i think the vast majority of sc2 pro players do not earn enough money. i just disagree with the 'players should always make more than casters' opinion.
Yeah I agree with you there, I think the problem is more when casters are making more money than even the very best players (at least in the foreign scene).
On January 06 2012 04:20 JustJonny wrote: according to a quick google fox sports' Joe Buck makes ~6M/year in salary alone. MLB (one of the sports he covers) average player salary for 2011 was apparently around 3M/season. NFL average player salary is 1.9M for 2011.
I think everyone in eSports deserve more money, but this is not exactly an esports-specific trend.
So do you think Day 9 makes only twice what the average SC2 pro player makes?
no, i have no idea what they make as numbers aren't released (hence thread). I'm just saying there are parallels in other industries.
edit: to be clear i think the vast majority of sc2 pro players do not earn enough money. i just disagree with the 'players should always make more than casters' opinion.
Yeah I agree with you there, I think the problem is more when casters are making more money than even the very best players (at least in the foreign scene).
and i'd agree with you there although i'm not sure how that could be fixed. the 'best' casters make money from so many sources (events, youtube, twitch, etc.). not many of them are a salaried employees of one particular organization (except artosis/tasteless) afaik. i do agree with HuK in that day9 making 20k, while the tournament winner making 16k for dreamhack is something that just doesn't seem right.
I've heard from Korean speakers that the Korean GSL casters have a lot more game knowledge than Tastosis and do lots of background research on even the most unknown players before they appear on stage.
I hope that casters in the foreigner scene can approach that level of professionalism one day.
On January 06 2012 02:06 kellymilkies wrote: Lets just all go back to making 7$ per game and hoping that you make enough at least for your fare to go home.
Or why not just get paid 50$ a day to cast 12 hours of games? Which includes CS1.6, WC3, and oh, you are suppose to do DoTA too. These are the 100 teams that have signed up. Have fun for the next 3 days.
Yeah guys, very good lets just all go back to 2007 where no casters got paid enough to even travel to a local event, buy lunch for him/herself and then travel home after midnight = no public transport = using whole day's pay for taxi.
All for what? So we could have people to all hate on us when after 5 years you accomplish the slightest of something?
Ok guys.
PS: TB is a great caster and entertainer. Love you John. (and singer. grattis on santa baby)
What you are saying has nothing to do with what is being discussed. The issue is not casters being paid, it is casters being paid more than the players, even the ones who win the tournament. Casters should be paid enough to make a living, nobody is disputing that.
One big issue is rights. When Day9 casts a replay of player x he is making money off of that players work, money that the player sees none of. I realize Day9 is doing work as well by adding analysis and commentary, and he should make money from this, but the player should be entitled to an appropriate share. When Day9 does a "Idra Daily", Idra should receive a cut of the stream/youtube revenue. Casters are essentially exploiting the fact that legally Blizzard owns all the replays.
It is not true that the player sees nothing from it. In all other sports players are paid by and their main income is from teams/sponsors/ads. Day9 casting a player gives that player visibility that he can use to gain more money from sponsors/ads,..
Also there is no compelling reason for players to own the replays. Chess games, records of football games are not owned by players for mostly good reasons. For example two people would actually be owners of each replay. So if Idra would give Day9 his replay for $50, but his opponent denies the use altogether. So Idra gains nothing, not even the visibility he gains in current system and community loses. And that was just the example of many possible problems in that area.
You don't see this argument when a caster or community person decides to start practicing or participating in events, only vica versa. I think the real concern here, is casters' job security.
Also, fuck slasher.
I don't know why people continue to take him seriously. He's confrontational for the sake of confrontation and his arguments usually have more holes than I ever care to explain.
i think casters also get generally more paid because there are very few casters out there, while on the other hand if u look at players, there are like 100 times more of them. so tournament organisators obviously want, the best players and the best casters. but since there are so few casters out there, these are much harder to grab than great players. and because there are so few good casters out there, they can pretty much ask for a shitload of money from the tournaments for them to actually cast it.
when you watch football, theres not a whole lot of explaining needed to do by the casters. the viewers pretty much can see whats going on with their own eyes and be amazed by the players and teams. but in sc2, since this game is alot more complex than football or any other sport, the caster role is suddenly alot more important. the viewers in general prefer great casters casting good players rather than good casters casting great players for this reason.
when you think about it it makes complete sense that the casters make alot more money than the players in general. weather its ideal or not is a different story.
I think that these 3 paragraphs are the most logical and reasonable answers on why casters make more money at this current juncture. SC2 is new "sport" for a lot of people myself included. Traditional sports I grew up and played in my youth basketball,baseball,football,hockey etc. I could talk your ear off about why this linebacker was able to blitz in untouched doing a stunt or how to explain by the motion of a pitch whether it was a curve or slider etc.. and technically be a "commentator". With SC2 people like myself dont always understand the timings of builds the reason player x reacts to what he scouts at the 5minute mark from player y. So a caster who is able to dumb it down for us noobs is absolutely necessary. The more you watch/listen the more you learn
I would only imagine in a few years that the roles will be reversed as they should be. Players seem to work very very hard for years to fine tune their builds and execution. And I get it why some are mad that they can go to a tournament and win it but they don't get half as much as the person who just commented their games. Unfortunately it has to be this way for the time being.
On January 06 2012 02:07 Xxio wrote: Bans incoming.
I deserve it.
But I don't regret it. That was more satisfying than it had any right to be.
User was temp banned for this post.
On January 06 2012 02:12 TotalBiscuit wrote: Please give me a ban as well btw. I do deserve it and clearly broke the forum rules on multiple occasions. Don't want any special treatment.
Can anyone reading this not instantly see something horribly wrong here? This is just laughable coming from someone that is supposed to be considered "professional". If anything hes just revealing his true nature, as a large attention starved sweaty man child, who places all his self worth in a community that largely loathes him for his inability to recognize what he is seeing on his computer screen. The only thing entertaining about you is how you think you are worth something in someone elses eyes besides your own.
Please mods, no special treatment! I did what I did because im professional and it was satisfying, not because I have anger problems and am approaching my mid-life crisis.
P.S. you are large
edit: I want steff to meet you at a lan and be a 7 foot tall body builder so when he comes up to you, you can give the same look to him as you give while you are scrambling to find the closest morsel of food at 3am, a look of pure frantic excitement as you look around for the closest exit. Just imagining all 300 pounds of you moving that fast brings a smile to my face.
Honestly, I don't care about some "analytic" caster that still gets everything wrong half the time, but is too arrogant to know or acknowledge it. And I don't need a caster that tells me how bad a player that could destroy him 100/100 times is or how stupid that build that he (the caster who is probably high diamond) couldn't even pull off was. I would prefer a guy with some charisma and charm like Husky, who still manages to "get it right" half the time and somehow manages to not talk shit on players or styles and end up looking stupid later in the match.
Also, I know four or five people wouldn't even care about competitive SC if it wasn't for Husky or HD. They bring outsiders in, and thus reap the rewards of that. I don't know why it's any concern of the players what anyone else makes, though. Who cares what someone else makes? How does that make what you make any less or more?
The simple truth of the matter is that tournaments are doing the right thing by overpaying the "celebrity" casters. SC2 is not entertaining enough by itself to support investing in the prize pool/players so the average game quality increases - no such investment will bring more viewers than shelling out 20k for Day9 or Tastosis. This can most easily be seen in the ESV Korean Weekly, which has better games than almost any foreigner-only tournament, but it's online and doesn't have popular casters, so it gets less viewers than the most popular player streams. Meanwhile, Day9 gets 16k viewers casting team monobattles or playing Skyrim.
Tournaments do what they should be doing, it's the viewers/scene that need to change. Alternatively, the game needs to become better, but we all know how probable that is given the HotS preview...
The current set up has the casters being the face of the tournament, and I don't see that changing for quite some time. Players pop in and out during their matches, so even if a player goes to the final, he probably won't get more than 10% of the air time that a casters get. Meanwhile, a caster would probably get 30-50% of the air time that the entire tournament has.
If players would cast, in a large tournament, they would take time from resting, watching replays and basically getting ready for the next match. Furthermore, it makes it extremely difficult for the tournament organizer to get casters. Players A made it though, but Player B did not, and Player B is in a bad mood cause of bad loss, etc. Since you don't really know who is casting and who is not, the quality of the cast is not a known quantity. Even if you don't like TB, you know what you are getting. It would be a nightmare for organizers to attempt to get player-casters to work the schedule. Much easier to get casters to do that job.
This is a crazy issue, I think in general everyone tunes in to tournaments for the players. On the other hand I'm sure there are others out there like myself who also will avoid a stream because of who's casting it, in the larger scope of things i agree with Huk the players would be far better casters, and the players don't get nearly the amount of respect and attention that they should.
If organizations want to pay casters well, or not pay players well enough, it's entirely their perrogative to do so. It's not some sort of huge burden on the spectators that this is happening, so why bother even bringing it up?
Is it ideal for players? Probably not. But in the end, you gotta remember that all of this is revolving around a VIDEO GAME. Do I wish video games were as relevant as athletic sports? Of course I do! I love video games, and I don't play sports. But the fact remains, they aren't the same.
E-"Sports" is an entriely different beast altogether, and doesn't have to be modelled after existing paradigms because it is its own thing. Casters make more than players... it ain't ideal, but it's reality. No sense in getting riled up over it.
And anyone who argues that players wouldn't make better casters than non-players need to check themselves. It's practically axiomatic.
It comes down to this: who is more important for the success of an event/esports? The players or the casters? The casters. Duh. Personally I can't stand watching games with bad casting, no matter who's playing. What's the worst part of any tournament? When they drag the socially awkward progamer teens out of their booths and shove them in front of a camera up on stage next to some rented big-breasted booth babe and shine a light in their face. Shit is awkward as hell. What's the best part? Whenever tastosis speak. I wouldn't watch starcraft2 games if it weren't for the casters. Throw money on them. They deserve it, they're the reason this whole scene exists. Not the guys who made a career out of playing video games all day
Disclaimer: not hating on progamers, just saying the casters are way more important and deserve their higher pay/status.
And anyone who argues that players wouldn't make better casters than non-players need to check themselves. It's practically axiomatic.
Players may or may not make better casters than the casters themselves. If you've got a player who is a huge curmudgeon, with a high, nasally voice, and has the charisma of a dead goat, then he's not going to be a better caster. If you've got a player who is very charismatic, very passionate, and quite knowledgeable, than he might be a good caster. He might not be better, but he might be pretty damn good.
The problem with saying one group is "better" or will be "better" is in how you define better. Realize that your "better" is not my "better". You may love Artosis and hate Husky. I may despise Artosis and love Husky. (I like both of them). We both may hate Tasteless and some other guy loves him. (I like Tasteless). We will all have different reasons for why we like the one's we like. You like this guys humor and I like this guys casting voice. You like this guy's knowledge and I like this other guy's stories or attitude.
Now, if you mean by "better": "more popular and successful". Then it gets tough. Following the model of other professional sports, retired players will become the more popular and successful casters. Many of them will be more popular and successful as casters than they ever were as players. Some of the greatest players will be called terrible "casters" and won't be popular at all. But this is not like other sports. Even a non-professional player can still play the game at a higher level than 90% of his potential audience with this game (I think Husky is diamond, that's higher than most).
Basically, the point is: some players will definitely be casters. The most skilled and knowledgeable player may not necessarily be the best caster. Everyone's definition for "best caster" is different. Stop trying to force everyone into your own way of thinking. There is no one objectively best type of caster.
On January 06 2012 06:26 Rob28 wrote: And anyone who argues that players wouldn't make better casters than non-players need to check themselves. It's practically axiomatic.
Basically the same kind of thinking that says that someone who's good at math is also automatically good at teaching math. Doesn't work that way.
On January 06 2012 06:32 Osmoses wrote: It comes down to this: who is more important for the success of an event/esports? The players or the casters? The casters. Duh. Personally I can't stand watching games with bad casting, no matter who's playing. What's the worst part of any tournament? When they drag the socially awkward progamer teens out of their booths and shove them in front of a camera up on stage next to some rented big-breasted booth babe and shine a light in their face. Shit is awkward as hell. What's the best part? Whenever tastosis speak. I wouldn't watch starcraft2 games if it weren't for the casters. Throw money on them. They deserve it, they're the reason this whole scene exists. Not the guys who made a career out of playing video games all day
Disclaimer: not hating on progamers, just saying the casters are way more important and deserve their higher pay/status.
Frankly, people who have attitudes like you are the problem imo. Don't take that as a slight, you are entitled to your opinion, I just think if the majority of people are like you SC2 will always be a niche game. People don't watch football games for the casting. If SC2 really wants to be a sport the primary draw has to be the gameplay and players not the casters. Hell I think Moletrap is terrible but I still watch GSL games that he casts because I want to see the games and players.
A large part of the reason casters are the big draw is a failure on the casters to tell a story about the players, help us get to know them better, tell us what their stats are on that map and against that race should be the bare minimum. Yet they rarely if ever do this (Wheat is really the only one I see doing this on a regular basis). If the casters build up the players and their personalties better than the players and the gameplay can be competing draws with caster appeal.
On January 06 2012 02:12 TotalBiscuit wrote: Please give me a ban as well btw. I do deserve it and clearly broke the forum rules on multiple occasions. Don't want any special treatment.
Can anyone reading this not instantly see something horribly wrong here? This is just laughable coming from someone that is supposed to be considered "professional". If anything hes just revealing his true nature, as a large attention starved sweaty man child, who places all his self worth in a community that largely loathes him for his inability to recognize what he is seeing on his computer screen. The only thing entertaining about you is how you think you are worth something in someone elses eyes besides your own.
Please mods, no special treatment! I did what I did because im professional and it was satisfying, not because I have anger problems and am approaching my mid-life crisis.
P.S. you are large
edit: I want steff to meet you at a lan and be a 7 foot tall body builder so when he comes up to you, you can give the same look to him as you give while you are scrambling to find the closest morsel of food at 3am, a look of pure frantic excitement as you look around for the closest exit. Just imagining all 300 pounds of you moving that fast brings a smile to my face.
What's up with all the low post count people bashing on TB in this thread lol. Go argue somewhere else
i have no problem with casting progamers, more the better. i'm more worried about casters continuing to cast while i think they dont deserve the job (wrong info, bias, bad casting habits), regardless of their status. i'm not talking about HD or husky type, they're doing their own thing but when you're casting for GSL/MLG/DH or some other organization, there should be standards on "good caster" based on their knowledge and personality, not on popularity.
On January 06 2012 02:07 Xxio wrote: Bans incoming.
I deserve it.
But I don't regret it. That was more satisfying than it had any right to be.
User was temp banned for this post.
On January 06 2012 02:12 TotalBiscuit wrote: Please give me a ban as well btw. I do deserve it and clearly broke the forum rules on multiple occasions. Don't want any special treatment.
Can anyone reading this not instantly see something horribly wrong here? This is just laughable coming from someone that is supposed to be considered "professional". If anything hes just revealing his true nature, as a large attention starved sweaty man child, who places all his self worth in a community that largely loathes him for his inability to recognize what he is seeing on his computer screen. The only thing entertaining about you is how you think you are worth something in someone elses eyes besides your own.
Please mods, no special treatment! I did what I did because im professional and it was satisfying, not because I have anger problems and am approaching my mid-life crisis.
P.S. you are large
edit: I want steff to meet you at a lan and be a 7 foot tall body builder so when he comes up to you, you can give the same look to him as you give while you are scrambling to find the closest morsel of food at 3am, a look of pure frantic excitement as you look around for the closest exit. Just imagining all 300 pounds of you moving that fast brings a smile to my face.
What's up with all the low post count people bashing on TB in this thread lol. Go argue somewhere else
Maybe they thought they could poke his ego, which worked.
And if you look at HSC, most of these guys don't even speak English as their native language, and don't cast, and are doing a much better job than a lot of "professional" casters do. It's much more enjoyable to have players giving insight and assuming you can use your own eyes. They make the content, and they can provide the entertainment both in the game and outside it through commentary as well.
What's even better is when you get someone like Thorzain getting asked a question about the game, and saying "sorry, I was too busy focusing on observing".
That's what you ideally should have IMO. People who know how to observe well, people who know things about the game. And you can't say Cloud poking fun at Goody all series long in the TvT just cased in HSC wasn't entertaining.
some analytical casters take it too far, Apollo for example. I want to watch the game and not listen to him predict every movement and action of the players. He always says what the players should be doing or what they are gonna do and they always prove him wrong. analytical caster need to cast the game and not predict it and show off their "knowledge" of the game.
But when Apollo is doing that he IS casting the game. Unfortunately for us the fact that Apollo casts top players means they aren't going to do the most obvious tech route/build order being read by the casters (which is read better by their opponent but hopefully not way better). If Apollo was put in a situation where the players he's casting aren't top level, they'll be less creative with their builds, know less smooth transitions/tech routes etc.
I'd rather a caster be smart enough to deduce what a player could do from what he sees and be wrong when the player tricks him (and maybe his opponent), then the caster just not guess at all and commentate worker harassment or talk about other nonsensical shit that isn't relevant past the next 3 seconds. So many casters seem like they're afraid to stop talking. Casters please, you can shut up sometimes. You're paid to talk just like players are paid to play, but they don't queue for ladder in between games to show the crowd their fancy new cheese.
i think casters also get generally more paid because there are very few casters out there, while on the other hand if u look at players, there are like 100 times more of them. so tournament organisators obviously want, the best players and the best casters. but since there are so few casters out there, these are much harder to grab than great players. and because there are so few good casters out there, they can pretty much ask for a shitload of money from the tournaments for them to actually cast it.
when you watch football, theres not a whole lot of explaining needed to do by the casters. the viewers pretty much can see whats going on with their own eyes and be amazed by the players and teams. but in sc2, since this game is alot more complex than football or any other sport, the caster role is suddenly alot more important. the viewers in general prefer great casters casting good players rather than good casters casting great players for this reason.
when you think about it it makes complete sense that the casters make alot more money than the players in general. weather its ideal or not is a different story.
I think that these 3 paragraphs are the most logical and reasonable answers on why casters make more money at this current juncture. SC2 is new "sport" for a lot of people myself included. Traditional sports I grew up and played in my youth basketball,baseball,football,hockey etc. I could talk your ear off about why this linebacker was able to blitz in untouched doing a stunt or how to explain by the motion of a pitch whether it was a curve or slider etc.. and technically be a "commentator". With SC2 people like myself dont always understand the timings of builds the reason player x reacts to what he scouts at the 5minute mark from player y. So a caster who is able to dumb it down for us noobs is absolutely necessary. The more you watch/listen the more you learn
I would only imagine in a few years that the roles will be reversed as they should be. Players seem to work very very hard for years to fine tune their builds and execution. And I get it why some are mad that they can go to a tournament and win it but they don't get half as much as the person who just commented their games. Unfortunately it has to be this way for the time being.
I totally agree with Morrow on this. You see there's this belief that you need Artosis or Day9 to be at event, for it to be successful, because no one comes close to their casting abilities in this small pool of casters we have. I feel this should change as the sports grows older and we get more people becoming dedicated caster. Instead of events going, Eh let's just be safe and fly those guys from korea to cast, they'll be like Eh, doesn't so and so live right across the corner? Let's get him to do it!
I also think the caster bashing here is bullshit, if you're unhappy with the caster you should give constructive feedback to him in his thread, not go on about how 'fake' he is or him being in it just for the money.
You can hate TotalBiscuit all you want, but he did bring new adience to SC2. I know a few people who are very casual at SC2, and they all prefer TB's commentary over Day9's (I tried to make them watch dailies, but they didn't like to watch "that nerdy face" all the time). I personally would much prefer watching TB with analitical co-caster. In fact, my favorite comba is Day9+Husky (I think not enough people appreciate how good they mesh together)
You can also riot about the top caster's payings all you want, but casters do bring audience to tournaments. At this point we have high level tournaments too often, and it comes to quality of casting and production when I have to choose which I will follow. Hell, MLG might be at the worst time of day for me, but I would be most excited by it, if it has Day9+Husky and Tastosis at the same time, as both pairs are really great to watch.
Homestory Cup is great to watch pro players having fun and getting to know them better. It's great for getting more game knowledge. It's great for seeing more players in the spotlight on the stream. But it cannot be a recipe for every tournament. When I linked a HSC stream to one of my friends, he said "Who are these ugly non-expressive people on the stream?" (Yes, he is a fan of TotalBiscuit. And Idra. You can't really call any of them non-expressive, do you?)
Fact is, most pro players have steady income from their team's payment and occasional tournament winnings. Caster have only occasional payoff by a tournament. It's not really tournament's task to bring steady income to all the participating players. The tournaments should however bring enough exposure to participants, and they also need to pay their casters.
Now, what I'm trying to say, is there really is no reason why you should make all that fuss about tournaments paying casters this and players that. It's a competitive enviroment! There are much more tournaments that any player can really participate in. It's up to player and his management to decide which tournaments are good for their exposure (again, for player's team it's not about the winnings, it's about exposure). It's up to caster to decide if tournament pays good enough to come and stay sleep deprived for 3-4 days. All of it is not up to people who have nothing better to do than argue on forums. Tournaments understand this, and they do what they need to attract good players and good casters.
It might actually be a good idea for tournaments to have additional paid streams with analytical casters only (and yes, players would be great at this, fuck Slasher*). But this is still a niche demand in terms of viewers, no matter how many TB hate forum posts are there.
* See, I actually have something on actualy topic of this thread, unlike most posts there!
You can hate TotalBiscuit all you want, but he did bring new adience to SC2. I know a few people who are very casual at SC2, and they all prefer TB's commentary over Day9's (I tried to make them watch dailies, but they didn't like to watch "that nerdy face" all the time). I personally would much prefer watching TB with analitical co-caster. In fact, my favorite comba is Day9+Husky (I think not enough people appreciate how good they mesh together)
You can also riot about the top caster's payings all you want, but casters do bring audience to tournaments. At this point we have high level tournaments too often, and it comes to quality of casting and production when I have to choose which I will follow. Hell, MLG might be at the worst time of day for me, but I would be most excited by it, if it has Day9+Husky and Tastosis at the same time, as both pairs are really great to watch.
Homestory Cup is great to watch pro players having fun and getting to know them better. It's great for getting more game knowledge. It's great for seeing more players in the spotlight on the stream. But it cannot be a recipe for every tournament. When I linked a HSC stream to one of my friends, he said "Who are these ugly non-expressive people on the stream?" (Yes, he is a fan of TotalBiscuit. And Idra. You can't really call any of them non-expressive, do you?)
Fact is, most pro players have steady income from their team's payment and occasional tournament winnings. Caster have only occasional payoff by a tournament. It's not really tournament's task to bring steady income to all the participating players. The tournaments should however bring enough exposure to participants, and they also need to pay their casters.
Now, what I'm trying to say, is there really is no reason why you should make all that fuss about tournaments paying casters this and players that. It's a competitive enviroment! There are much more tournaments that any player can really participate in. It's up to player and his management to decide which tournaments are good for their exposure (again, for player's team it's not about the winnings, it's about exposure). It's up to caster to decide if tournament pays good enough to come and stay sleep deprived for 3-4 days. All of it is not up to people who have nothing better to do than argue on forums. Tournaments understand this, and they do what they need to attract good players and good casters.
It might actually be a good idea for tournaments to have additional paid streams with analytical casters only (and yes, players would be great at this, fuck Slasher*). But this is still a niche demand in terms of viewers, no matter how many TB hate forum posts are there.
* See, I actually have something on actualy topic of this thread, unlike most posts there!
Cba to argue all your points but are those quotes from your friends real? They like TB (not what most consider very handsome man) yet they call the casters on HSC "ugly" and D9 is a "nerd face", sounds childish to me.
On January 06 2012 09:10 Alexj wrote: Fact is, most pro players have steady income from their team's payment and occasional tournament winnings. Caster have only occasional payoff by a tournament. It's not really tournament's task to bring steady income to all the participating players. The tournaments should however bring enough exposure to participants, and they also need to pay their casters.
The part you are stating here is not true. Maybe teams like EG give their players a good wage, but they seem to be an exception. Many of the koreans aren't even paid a salary (their necessities and housing are taken care of by the team though). This is a hard point to argue because teams don't publicly release salary numbers, but I would venture that the average pro sc2 gamer, in the west and in the east, does not make much money, and if they had to support anyone other than themselves (like a family) the wages they get from pro gaming would be unsustainable for their lifestyle. You don't become a pro gamer for the money in the west. You would earn much more and work much less just going to college and getting a job after in almost all cases.
I agree completely that if all the players earned a healthy income from their teams then the prize money becomes irrelevant (there is no NFL prize money, unless you want to count bonus clauses in players contracts, but that is paid by the team). The problem in SC2 is that many players do not earn what they are worth right now from their teams due to salary being secret, players being young and naive (no agents), and a concentration more on people who make publicity than results (more people probably know who Incontrol is than Polt). Just look at the reasons players give when they switch teams, it is very rarely a financial one.
In summary, the market is working to give Casters competitive rates of payment. Due to the way teams operate currently and the fact that most players do not receive good advice (like from agents in pro sports) those same competitive forces do not exist for the players, and it is keeping player wages down. The player DO need the income from tournaments.
On January 06 2012 02:06 kellymilkies wrote: Lets just all go back to making 7$ per game and hoping that you make enough at least for your fare to go home.
Or why not just get paid 50$ a day to cast 12 hours of games? Which includes CS1.6, WC3, and oh, you are suppose to do DoTA too. These are the 100 teams that have signed up. Have fun for the next 3 days.
Yeah guys, very good lets just all go back to 2007 where no casters got paid enough to even travel to a local event, buy lunch for him/herself and then travel home after midnight = no public transport = using whole day's pay for taxi.
All for what? So we could have people to all hate on us when after 5 years you accomplish the slightest of something?
Ok guys.
PS: TB is a great caster and entertainer. Love you John. (and singer. grattis on santa baby)
What you are saying has nothing to do with what is being discussed. The issue is not casters being paid, it is casters being paid more than the players, even the ones who win the tournament. Casters should be paid enough to make a living, nobody is disputing that.
One big issue is rights. When Day9 casts a replay of player x he is making money off of that players work, money that the player sees none of. I realize Day9 is doing work as well by adding analysis and commentary, and he should make money from this, but the player should be entitled to an appropriate share. When Day9 does a "Idra Daily", Idra should receive a cut of the stream/youtube revenue. Casters are essentially exploiting the fact that legally Blizzard owns all the replays.
The player receive attention and free advertisement though.
I bet there are tons and tons of obscure pros that no one have heard of who just can't wait for Day9 or Husky to cast one of their games.
On January 06 2012 06:32 Osmoses wrote: It comes down to this: who is more important for the success of an event/esports? The players or the casters? The casters. Duh. Personally I can't stand watching games with bad casting, no matter who's playing. What's the worst part of any tournament? When they drag the socially awkward progamer teens out of their booths and shove them in front of a camera up on stage next to some rented big-breasted booth babe and shine a light in their face. Shit is awkward as hell. What's the best part? Whenever tastosis speak. I wouldn't watch starcraft2 games if it weren't for the casters. Throw money on them. They deserve it, they're the reason this whole scene exists. Not the guys who made a career out of playing video games all day
Disclaimer: not hating on progamers, just saying the casters are way more important and deserve their higher pay/status.
Frankly, people who have attitudes like you are the problem imo. Don't take that as a slight, you are entitled to your opinion, I just think if the majority of people are like you SC2 will always be a niche game. People don't watch football games for the casting. If SC2 really wants to be a sport the primary draw has to be the gameplay and players not the casters. Hell I think Moletrap is terrible but I still watch GSL games that he casts because I want to see the games and players.
A large part of the reason casters are the big draw is a failure on the casters to tell a story about the players, help us get to know them better, tell us what their stats are on that map and against that race should be the bare minimum. Yet they rarely if ever do this (Wheat is really the only one I see doing this on a regular basis). If the casters build up the players and their personalties better than the players and the gameplay can be competing draws with caster appeal.
If the gameplay and the players are supposed to be the center of attention then they need to earn it. In my opinion, SC2 is currently not good enough on its own. BW is, and that's why I can enjoy that even without casting. But the korean casters definitely put some extra spice on it. Never mind that I can't understand what they're saying, sometimes it's not about what you say but about how you say it.
In my opinion, most players are boring, socially awkward teenagers. That's one of the reasons I cheer for Idra, Destiny and, in the past, Firebathero. Because they have actual personalities whereas most players look at their feet and mumble humble.
if you sign a contract with a pro gamer team, you can't then complain because you're not getting paid enough.
ffs if someone paid $1m a year to do some mundane easy task you can't victimise the person who takes the job.
personally i like totalbiscuit more and more every time he gets trolled and flamed for doing something he enjoys, and i believe that non-pro casters are far more entertaining than semi-pro casters who might be able to analyse a game - but 99% of them couldn't entertain an infant with a crayon and a bucket of play-doh.
"hi i am X and i am a high level sc2 player and i stream ladder and i like sc2 and i played broodwar and i am exactly the same as every grandmaster player and high master player in the entire world"
On January 06 2012 21:43 shizna wrote: if you sign a contract with a pro gamer team, you can't then complain because you're not getting paid enough.
ffs if someone paid $1m a year to do some mundane easy task you can't victimise the person who takes the job.
personally i like totalbiscuit more and more every time he gets trolled and flamed for doing something he enjoys, and i believe that non-pro casters are far more entertaining than semi-pro casters who might be able to analyse a game - but 99% of them couldn't entertain an infant with a crayon and a bucket of play-doh.
"hi i am X and i am a high level sc2 player and i stream ladder and i like sc2 and i played broodwar and i am exactly the same as every grandmaster player and high master player in the entire world"
When everyone doesn't have a very clear picture of what other players are making, it makes it much harder to determine what they themselves are worth, and it also stifles competition between teams for players. These players are not lawyers, and will often sign contracts that a professional would tell them to renegotiate some parts of, do you think athletes just sign the first contract they are given without having an agent look at it?
On January 06 2012 09:30 karpo wrote: Cba to argue all your points but are those quotes from your friends real? They like TB (not what most consider very handsome man) yet they call the casters on HSC "ugly" and D9 is a "nerd face", sounds childish to me.
Well I forgot to mention that some of these friends are huge trolls and like to exagerate quite a bit
On January 06 2012 09:55 Duravi wrote: The part you are stating here is not true. Maybe teams like EG give their players a good wage, but they seem to be an exception. Many of the koreans aren't even paid a salary (their necessities and housing are taken care of by the team though). This is a hard point to argue because teams don't publicly release salary numbers, but I would venture that the average pro sc2 gamer, in the west and in the east, does not make much money, and if they had to support anyone other than themselves (like a family) the wages they get from pro gaming would be unsustainable for their lifestyle. You don't become a pro gamer for the money in the west. You would earn much more and work much less just going to college and getting a job after in almost all cases.
You can't really compare "average pro" and Day9. Day9 is not an "average" caster. I can count 10-15 casters in the world that have a regular income from their casts, and only 3-5 who might get really huge salaries (I don't think TB or Rotterdam or IPL casters get as much money as Day9 and Tastosis). So if we compare "average pro" and "average caster"... "average pro" in western teams still has at least $300-500 salary. Average caster (not Day9, not Husky, not TB, not ESL or IPL guys) has a viewership close to 0 and no steady income
Korean pros don't have good salaries, but that slowly changes as well. Besides, why should it be discussed in this topic? Yes, it's not fair how korean gamers are treated, but it has nothing to do with Day9's salary, or western progamer's salary or whether players can be good casters.
On January 05 2012 08:03 Naniwa wrote: i think we can all just agree that huk is underpaid
So if we compare "average pro" and "average caster"... "average pro" in western teams still has at least $300-500 salary. Average caster (not Day9, not Husky, not TB, not ESL or IPL guys) has a viewership close to 0 and no steady income
Your comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A $300 salary is $3600 a year, there is no way you can live off of that. Even if I double your high end estimate, $1000 a month say, it means the average pro makes 12k per year, well below the poverty line in most places. You honestly think any caster who is making a living casting makes less than that? The ones who do it part time like wheat, but have other jobs are not fair to use in this comparison, we are talking about full time players vs full time casters.
On January 06 2012 23:58 Duravi wrote: Your comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A $300 salary is $3600 a year, there is no way you can live off of that. Even if I double your high end estimate, $1000 a month say, it means the average pro makes 12k per year, well below the poverty line in most places. You honestly think any caster who is making a living casting makes less than that? The ones who do it part time like wheat, but have other jobs are not fair to use in this comparison, we are talking about full time players vs full time casters.
Again, I doubt "average caster" (think about guys casting european weekly tournaments) makes even 300$ a month. "Any caster who is making a living casting" is not an average caster. It is probably a guy who started casting years ago and didn't have any salary/income until SC2 beta started (with a very rare exceptions, like Tastosis casting on Korean TV)
And yeah, I guess $500-$1000 for average pro is a better estimation than mine. There are probably 100 pros in the western scene with these salaries. That's much more than there are casters making at least $500 a month. Though smaller and lesser known teams might pay less than that -- and I mean the teams you probably have never heard about (do names like Incredible Panic and mXs.SR tell you anything? Yeah, thought so)
Are you serious about 12k a year being below poverty in most places? What the fuck? You sure don't know much about the world you live in. 12k might not be comfortable for those who leave in USA (coincidentally USA teams like EG have more money and probably higher salaries), but especially for Eastern Europe that's really good. Hell, that's really really good income for Ukraine, well above average. Well, you could earn more if you work in IT, finance or law -- all of which need a very good (and expensive) education. Why do you think Russians and Ukrainians are good at RTSes? Those pros, like White-Ra, Dimaga, Kas, Titan and Happy became good at the game while they were students. I think all of them are smart individuals and might eventually got jobs as, for example, programmers with higher salaries. But when they found out they already have decent (comparatively to average wages in their country) income while playing their favorite game, they liked it and focused on that.
On January 06 2012 23:58 Duravi wrote: Your comparison doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A $300 salary is $3600 a year, there is no way you can live off of that. Even if I double your high end estimate, $1000 a month say, it means the average pro makes 12k per year, well below the poverty line in most places. You honestly think any caster who is making a living casting makes less than that? The ones who do it part time like wheat, but have other jobs are not fair to use in this comparison, we are talking about full time players vs full time casters.
Again, I doubt "average caster" (think about guys casting european weekly tournaments) makes even 300$ a month. "Any caster who is making a living casting" is not an average caster. It is probably a guy who started casting years ago and didn't have any salary/income until SC2 beta started (with a very rare exceptions, like Tastosis casting on Korean TV)
And yeah, I guess $500-$1000 for average pro is a better estimation than mine. There are probably 100 pros in the western scene with these salaries. That's much more than there are casters making at least $500 a month. Though smaller and lesser known teams might pay less than that -- and I mean the teams you probably have never heard about (do names like Incredible Panic and mXs.SR tell you anything? Yeah, thought so)
Are you serious about 12k a year being below poverty in most places? What the fuck? You sure don't know much about the world you live in. 12k might not be comfortable for those who leave in USA (coincidentally USA teams like EG have more money and probably higher salaries), but especially for Eastern Europe that's really good. Hell, that's really really good income for Ukraine, well above average. Well, you could earn more if you work in IT, finance or law -- all of which need a very good (and expensive) education. Why do you think Russians and Ukrainians are good at RTSes? Those pros, like White-Ra, Dimaga, Kas, Titan and Happy became good at the game while they were students. I think all of them are smart individuals and might eventually got jobs as, for example, programmers with higher salaries. But when they found out they already have decent (comparatively to average wages in their country) income while playing their favorite game, they liked it and focused on that.
I was talking about in the US and Western Europe in mentioning 12k being at or below the poverty line, just to clarify. Obviously cost of living is a big factor, even within the US there is a lot of variation comparing rural and urban areas. The vast majority of SC2 pros outside of korea come from those two regions.
On January 07 2012 02:36 Duravi wrote: I was talking about in the US and Western Europe in mentioning 12k being at or below the poverty line, just to clarify. Obviously cost of living is a big factor, even within the US there is a lot of variation comparing rural and urban areas. The vast majority of SC2 pros outside of korea come from those two regions.
Are you sure about that? I honestly can't say for sure if it's true or not. We need to count pros in Eatern Europe, South America and Asia (minus Korea) versus USA/Canada + Western Europe (and I guess Australia for what it's worth). Then we can argue about those playes who do it full time versus those with "real jobs" and students. And if we're into bashing people for no apprent reason, we can argue about who really deserves to be a pro or not
All right, StarCraft comunities in China and Taiwan are very isolated atm, but let's look at the current top of TLPD excluding Koreans
Now this is just too small of a sample to make a point, but... you see what point that would be
Then even if we forget about all of that... If pros were not happy about their financial situation they always have the option to abandon it. For example, when the popularity of WarCraft 3 was past it's peak, many russian War3 players succefully switched to poker. There are also other options, like coaching and streaming.
I would still be glad if the income of "average pros" was higher. But that's what we'll naturaly come to.
Me being a big HuK fan, the twitter rage from him was actually quite painful to read... i'm seriously disapointed. Meh.
I don't even get this thread. How could anyone ever say than a job is overpaid? That's like shitting on someone for having it easier than you, instead of shiting on the reason why you have it hard. Seriously, wtf?
Are most players paid enough? No. Is it because casters are paid too much? No, it is not. So what's the point? Should we hate on casters for having a nice pay? How ridiculous can this be? Day9 and Tastosis are making much much money. Well! That's really cool! They are doing what they love the most, and they are getting paid nicely for it.
Instead of being jealous of casters because "they have it easier than us!", maybe players and team manager should try to work on way to change that? Do you really think that cuting the pay of the casters in half would help the players in any way? No, sorry, it would only hurt those casters, nothing else. No one would gain from that. Tournament or team will not suddenly give a shit ton of money to players only because Day9 is no more paid that much. It's ludicrous to even remotely think that.
How many good players there is? 100? 200?
How many good casters there is? 10...? 15?
There is too many players right now for the number of sponsors, that's the only reason. People must understand that SC2 is still a game and the fact that some players can live from playing it is actually awesome, but is not the norm, and probably will never be. But there is not that much really great casters... It's only normal that Day9 win more money that players, since he brings more money to the scene than any players. It may be sad, but that's the way it is. Blame the capitalism, not the casters. If you are not happy about it... work on it. Find solutions. Shiting on casters and being jealous of them is NOT a solution, and will NOT help any one. Who bring more people and money to the scene, anyway, a player like HuK or a caster like Day9?
In this world, people are not paid on effort made, but on result. And casters bring more result and money, therefore are paid more. If you think that you are not paid enough, ask yourself, what do you worth to an event? Would the event be as successful without you? Would your team be as popular? If it's yes and yes, you probably don't worth anything more than what you already make, no matter how hard you try. If it's no, then you probably deserve more, and then it's at you to bargin and ask for more, no one else. It absolutly have nothing to do with effort and hardwork. It's all about money.
Don't blame casters for having more money, blame capitalism. Occupy Wall Street.
But seriously, us, viewers (well, at least I, for one) don't want to read or hear about those money things. Choosing between castings and playings should not be a money thing, but a passion and ability things.
On January 06 2012 09:16 SkimGuy wrote: Guess why foreigners still watch Brood War games (Hint: It's not because of the Korean casting)
speak for yourself! At least 30% of why I watch BW is for dat Korean casting
The biggest reason why casters are making so much more money than players is because casters get paid by gaming leagues when they go out to cast, whereas players are getting paid (or not getting paid) by their teams. Teams are more or less somewhat poor/can't afford exorbitant salaries whereas for gaming leagues they have a larger source of income, only pay casters on a per-event basis and thus can afford to pay them more.
Casters getting paid and players getting paid are two completely different issues, while related, have different causes and affecting one will not touch the other.
If this debate is about bad casters getting paid too much then the simple solution is to stop watching their casts. Let the free market economy do its thing. Stop making shit posts and accounts to bash people. What a lot of people seem to not be able to realize is that casting =/= game knowledge. Casting = entertainment. Game knowledge adds to entertainment, but clearly is not a necessity for the vast SC2 viewing public, otherwise those "bad casters" would be long gone.
On January 07 2012 03:28 Xalorian wrote: Me being a big HuK fan, the twitter rage from him was actually quite painful to read... i'm seriously disapointed. Meh.
I don't even get this thread. How could anyone ever say than a job is overpaid? That's like shitting on someone for having it easier than you, instead of shiting on the reason why you have it hard. Seriously, wtf?
Are most players paid enough? No. Is it because casters are paid too much? No, it is not. So what's the point? Should we hate on casters for having a nice pay? How ridiculous can this be? Day9 and Tastosis are making much much money. Well! That's really cool! They are doing what they love the most, and they are getting paid nicely for it.
Instead of being jealous of casters because "they have it easier than us!", maybe players and team manager should try to work on way to change that? Do you really think that cuting the pay of the casters in half would help the players in any way? No, sorry, it would only hurt those casters, nothing else. No one would gain from that. Tournament or team will not suddenly give a shit ton of money to players only because Day9 is no more paid that much. It's ludicrous to even remotely think that.
How many good players there is? 100? 200?
How many good casters there is? 10...? 15?
There is too many players right now for the number of sponsors, that's the only reason. People must understand that SC2 is still a game and the fact that some players can live from playing it is actually awesome, but is not the norm, and probably will never be. But there is not that much really great casters... It's only normal that Day9 win more money that players, since he brings more money to the scene than any players. It may be sad, but that's the way it is. Blame the capitalism, not the casters. If you are not happy about it... work on it. Find solutions. Shiting on casters and being jealous of them is NOT a solution, and will NOT help any one. Who bring more people and money to the scene, anyway, a player like HuK or a caster like Day9?
In this world, people are not paid on effort made, but on result. And casters bring more result and money, therefore are paid more. If you think that you are not paid enough, ask yourself, what do you worth to an event? Would the event be as successful without you? Would your team be as popular? If it's yes and yes, you probably don't worth anything more than what you already make, no matter how hard you try. If it's no, then you probably deserve more, and then it's at you to bargin and ask for more, no one else. It absolutly have nothing to do with effort and hardwork. It's all about money.
Don't blame casters for having more money, blame capitalism. Occupy Wall Street.
But seriously, us, viewers (well, at least I, for one) don't want to read or hear about those money things. Choosing between castings and playings should not be a money thing, but a passion and ability things.
Here is the problem with what you said. If I am job hunting I can go to any number of resources, including the university I graduated from, and find out what the competitive rates in each region are for someone with my background. That information (or enough to make a very informed decision) is all out there. If I'm an SC2 player looking for a team I have no fucking clue what rates for people with my skill set are. The only way I can hope to find out is trying to get some of my pro pals to violate their NDAs and disclose the amount they are being paid to me, and even that would be just a few instances. I cannot name the salary amount with any degree of accuracy of a single player on that top 10 ELO Rank, the information is NOT out there.
So it is not a free market for the players, that is why they are underpaid. As a consequence the prize money from tournaments is more important to them than it would be if there were more competition between the teams. It is in NO WAY in the players favor to keep their salary secret, the advantage is 100% for the teams. The fact that the casters are making more than even the best players is not a fault of the casters, it is indicative of a problem in the system.
Some players need to get over themselves. If 20 of the top pros of the world quit tomorrow, we would miss them for a week and be over them, some others would take their place in a heart beat. If great casters like Day9 or TB quit we would miss them forever.
Sure the best players in the world should make more then the most popular casters, IF they are able to capitalize on there popularity. In tennis, which is a sport I think it is fair to compare wit, the best's tournement winnings are great, but still their winnings are dwarfed by the income they generate from sponsors and branding themselves. This is also how it should be in SC2.
The lesser known players, and the players who recide among the top 100 mark earns about 100k-200k a year from tournements. Do you really think John McEnroe earns less then this from his commentating alone? No way. Why. Well John McEnroe commentating is more important to the viewers then it is for players to see Andreas Beck play. If you took half the field of a Wimbledon tournement and switched it with someone else no one would care (if it was the lower ranked players), if you switched McEnroe you would get a shitstorm. Only thing that would cause more dismay among the fans is if you took out Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray.
So what I am saying is that I think Day9 deserves to get payed more than any single pro outside Korea. He also does more for e-sports than any pro outside Korea.
I would just like to add one more thing. When I got my first job as an engineer nowhere did I have to sign anything prohibiting me from revealing to anyone what the salary I am being paid is. I suspect this is true for most people. Then why, other than the fact that the teams do not want it, are we hiding the salaries of every major pro player in SC2? BW doesn't do this as far as I can tell...
If you want market forces to control what people are worth, then let them. Originally I blamed the tournaments for the discrepancy in player and caster pay, but the more I read the opinions of intelligent TL'ers on here the more I realize it is really the teams, and perhaps the lack of players unions, that are screwing over the players, not the tournaments and not the casters. These idiotic NDAs on players salary need to go, and if the players really want to make more money than casters instead of complaining on twitter they should form a players union that can levy power with the teams.
Maybe the spread of tournament money has to be spread out a little more, so its a gradual slope instead of the exponential slope we have now. I mean, SC2 tournament structure is similar to tennis and golf, and the people who qualify still make enough to get by.
Normally I would address each and everyone of you individually, but holy shit. It would be close to 3,000 words and what do I get out of it? Nothing. What would you get out of it? Most likely nothing.
I'll leave it at this:
If you enjoy what you are watching. Great. If you are having a hard time listening to caster. Hit that mute button or don't watch.
The solution is simple and its been said thousands and thousands of times. Probably a square root of that anyway. Let's just say really high.
No reason to get your panties twisted in a knot over a small Twitter conversation.
Twitter is bullshit. I would never use it to convey anything. That's what forums are for.
On January 07 2012 04:36 Tunkeg wrote: In tennis, which is a sport I think it is fair to compare wit, the best's tournement winnings are great, but still their winnings are dwarfed by the income they generate from sponsors and branding themselves. This is also how it should be in SC2.
The lesser known players, and the players who recide among the top 100 mark earns about 100k-200k a year from tournements. Do you really think John McEnroe earns less then this from his commentating alone? No way. Why. Well John McEnroe commentating is more important to the viewers then it is for players to see Andreas Beck play. If you took half the field of a Wimbledon tournement and switched it with someone else no one would care (if it was the lower ranked players), if you switched McEnroe you would get a shitstorm. Only thing that would cause more dismay among the fans is if you took out Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray.
Coming from a tennis background i can say this is spot on.
I'm more with Huk. I almost always prefer the players to be casting... even ESL casting is preferable for me to non player (or at least former high level BW/SC2) player casting. The only exception for me is artosis and Day[9]... But they are both if not pro level than at least former pro level and have a keen interest and spend a lot of time analyzing top level play...
Even tasteless, for me, is only really enjoyable because he's balanced with Artosis' deeper knowledge of the metagame. By himself, or paired with another non player caster (excluding artosis/day9) is far less enjoyable. Although he comes from a professional gaming background in broodwar, I definitely feel his depth of knowledge in the metagame has lowered.
TLDR I'm with Huk, prefer player casters, or at least casters who are really into starcraft analytically outside of casting games ala artosis/day9
Players should focus on playing. Broadcasters should focus on broadcasting. Tournaments should do more to highlight storylines. There needs to be serious (not necessarily mainstream_ journalistic coverage of events so narratives can get built and fans can learn about their favorite teams and players.
Casters are good at casting and players are good at playing it is NOT the same thing or at all the same talent.
Some players may have a casting talent and then they can cast.
Asking players who are not shy and can cast to join casting in a tournament can be fun for a few games.
Favourite casters: Day9 and Tastosis
Obvously it will happen that players hate or just dislike a caster due to that they say something about the player that he does not like. Many players are very young, less than 20 years, and they may overreact to such things and not be media trained in same way.
In all ways you can compare this to any other sport really.
Gotta say I agree, watching Homestory cup 4, with Destiny, Ret and Thorzain casting was the most dense and analytical cast of SC2 games I've ever seen - I loved every single second. Even though they don't bring much "typical" entertainment value and Thorzain especially being near silent, it was the best cast I've ever seen, I learnt and heard so much stuff I never even thought about :D
I agree with argh, its just 10x more interesting to hear what players perspectives are. But obviously this can't always happen because they have to play. Although really...with typical casters, what "entertainment" value is there really? Unless they're really funny people, generally its just being very loud and doing a play by play. I think that's why everyone loves Husky, he's just naturally a weird and funny guy...and people prefer to watch his casts over others primarily because of his personality.
Being a caster in most cases (the exceptions being if you truly understand the game) seems like a fairly unremarkable and simple job most of the time; you don't have to be particularly intelligent to tell people what they're seeing is happening or what will obviously happen if they build certain buildings. I remember once when Psy Starcraft presented a game on his youtube channel without any commentary whatsoever - we could just hear the sounds of the game. It was a very pleasant experience for me, sometimes I wish we could get an option just to hear the game and mute the casters (and I have noted others have supported this idea on Gom TV forums).
But anyways, the point is I'd be happy if casters had something to aspire to, be it increased in game knowledge or more 'colourful' commentary.
To be perfectly honest, I wish the only* people casting were top players.
I don't need anyone to hype stuff up or squeal at the right points in the game. What really makes a cast worth it for me is if I learn something and there's a world of difference between someone saying "Well so-and-so is moving out with marine-tank at 135 supply and the Zerg is at 150... this is going to be close!" and someone saying "well Terran is finally moving out but DRG was so effective with his muta harass that this push is almost three minutes late. Terran might as well pull his SCVs because this is virtually an all-in at this point."
And frankly, you only really get the latter type of analysis from a few top players (and generally only wrt the races they actually play). Even "good" casters who know a lot and pay attention and were top players in the past aren't always caught up on the very latest trends in play and it really shows when they cast.
None of this precludes having "color commentators" entirely or means that people are morons for wanting them but my personal preference is for pros even without much "stage presence." Every time.
*it should be noted that the one exception to this rule is Artosis. It feels to me like he actually spends enough time studying games that he is able to critique high level play similar to a pro player.
I loved the HSC4 casting - because it was different to what we normally get at big events. I like most of the major casters and through NASL and other comps (inc HSC4 now) I've found players I really like to hear casting.
The biggest thing about HSC4 for me was how we got to know more about the players and how they interact with each other. It was super cool to see them hangout and stuff. Some of the casting was very, very impressive from an analysis perspective, and some was just amazingly entertaining (once a bit more booze was consumed!).
IMO this is where there is a difference between players and casters. Due to their jobs/hobbies casters are interacting with us a lot more than players. You get to know casters better and that all contributes to how much (or how little) you enjoy their content. Some players are in the spotlight enough to achieve something similar - pillars and guest players on SOTG, vids by the various teams on players or the team house etc...
It's not impossible for players to generate this connection with the community. A number of players do stream and commentate - sometimes people are watching as much for the personality/humor/potential BM as they are for the quality of play (Masters and upward). But it all contributes to their fan base which then influences their sponsorship appeal and whether a team might be keen on picking them up.
At the moment it seems (imo) that casters have driven more awareness about SC2. I found out about Idra in the beta via HD and Husky. Then I went and read up on his BW days and then got connected to all those other ex-BW players/commentators. Now I know a heap more about their backgrounds and that is important for me as a fan and a consumer of SC2 material.
In other sports/entertainment I watch the caster/presenter certainly has an impact on my enjoyment of it. But the main reason I'm watching is because I love the sport and/or my favourite team/player is involved. I'll watch my favourite rugby or league team play even though I can't stand the commentators.
There aren't any casters I would mute in SC2. I do have preferences but overall it's the players I'm following. I want to watch the players/teams I support or games that have a lot riding on them.
Inequity about pay, real or imagined, is something that is going to work itself out as the scene develops. It's hard taking examples from mainstream, established sports where the $$ involved and the fanbase is just huge. We need to be positive about everyone who puts energy into growing SC2 as an eSport - we are trying to coax that golden egg out of the goose (sponsors) so players and casters get the $$ and exposure we think they should receive.
It's too easy to fixate on a caster/player you don't like and use that as your ammo for why you think they are crap or overpaid. If you don't like them then vote with your viewing power. Don't subscribe to their youtube channel, don't watch their stream, support the people you do enjoy.
There was a time when $50 -$100 prize pool in BW was such a big deal and rare and winning that cash was such a great accomplishment. Most of us that bought this game for the first time just want to play because we enjoy it. and now peoples mentality have change. and Complaining about why he is makign more or etc when we as players should just be thankful its there for the taking.. Im not a programer not even close to one.. and im sure 98% of high level masters and some GM work just as hard to improve there game, play countless hours, some even maybe more than pros. But im sure they do it cuz they enjoy the game and just want to be better. and for most them dont even think of making money on the game even if they do play 5-6 hours a day. Some trolls will say .. well thats because they are scrubbs and is not good enough to make money. But in the end it was never about making the money to begin with. For some pros who are upset about this situation they should just stop and be thankful.. Thankful that E-sports has grown so much that now outside of korea. They get to travel around the world and stay in hotels for free, meet fans they never dreamt of having, and a the chance to win THOUSANDS of $$ to play a VIDEO GAME!!
EPT
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