On December 01 2011 07:13 iNcontroL wrote: Yeah he told me. I hope my point isn't being misconstrued.. I am not arguing you are at fault for negotiating good terms.. I am arguing that people like Huk and other player "leaders" are in their right to argue that perhaps a lot of what the casters have been negotiated for themselves should find more middle ground with the players when it comes to tourneys. What a caster makes on their stream, youtube, company salary or what not is none of our business.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this though as you are outspoken about giving back what you make to the players.
And I know we have a history together so consider this a disclaimer: My post here and earlier was in no way an attack against you (at least I didn't intend it to be) and I am not being sarcastic now.
Well myself, Greg and Chris discussed this at length at ASUS ROG so chances are you know my feelings on the matter but fact is, I can afford to throw all my SC2 money away and not notice, other casters rely on it 100%. If you are talking about appearance fees which I assume you are, yes players should be asking for them if they have the bargaining power to get them. There are too many tournaments to attend now and star players who have draw which could add monetary value to the event stream/tickets and ROI for the sponsors should be negotiating, backed by their team, for better terms and refusing to attend tournaments that won't play ball. If they ask for too much, they will be hurt by it so it's up to them to make a reasonable case and potentially unionise with other high-profile players to get what they're asking for.
As for my terms, we really negotiate on behalf of Apollo rather than me. He needs it, I don't and I always ensure he gets the same as I do whether it be flat payment or ad-based revenue share.
Something I didn't think about is appearance fees. Do Huk or Idra get them? Someone like White-ra even I think might be able to validly make an argument.
TB makes a pretty good point about that, I don't know how much of that has been discussed on the business side of things between teams and events?
On December 01 2011 07:24 SimDawg wrote: Something I didn't think about is appearance fees. Do Huk or Idra get them? Someone like White-ra even I think might be able to validly make an argument.
TB makes a pretty good point about that, I don't know how much of that has been discussed on the business side of things between teams and events?
The thing is that if they do exist they are kept under wraps, just like caster fees. I would happily reveal what I got paid for Dreamhack and previous events but fact is tournaments generally don't like you doing that. Money doesn't get out in public too often because people get very weird around the discussion.
I don't like the idea of appearance fees because that doesn't really fix the problem. The players who can command appearance fees are players like huk/idra, etc who already make a lot of money, so it's just the rich getting richer, while the other players are still in the same boat.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Sorry but that's not how it works.
Do you think there are more great soccer/football players than there are casters? Yes. And the players still make much more.
I am pretty sure there are more doctors in this world then there are sc2 casters. Doctors makes more (i would think anyway lol).
Point being, there are more factors. I don't think the fact that there are more "great" casters than there are great players has much to do with it.
Haha I love how the poster below you objectively proved you wrong. The difference a soccer announcer is replaceable (except maybe the guy who says "goooooaaaaaaalllllll"), soccer players are much less so. The 20th best announcer duo would do fine commentating arsenal vs Manchester United (soccer is gay, are these good teams?). It would still be widely watched and the amount of people who don't watch because of the commentator would be trivial. The absolute best soccer commentator in the world commentating me and 21 buddies kicking it around would not sell.
Casters are more of a draw than players at the moment. Back to my analogy, make a list of the 20 best Sc players and 20 best Sc casters. Would you rather watch 19 play 20 and have it casted by 1 + 2, or have player 1 play player 2 and have it castes by 19 and 20. I think most people would rather watch tasteless and artists cast something like Leenock vs Naniwa (roughly) than some mouth breather cast Nestea vs MC (arbitrary, fill in whoever you want). If you'd rather the latter, you're already a hardcore fan which is all well and good but you aren't who the people making business decision are targeting. You're gonna watch regardless. They are targeting the guy who would watch day9 cast AHGL. That's the average Joe, that's not a diehard SC fanatic who is gonna watch to see how Huk alters his ffe to get a slightly faster +1. The hardcore fan might prefer an analytical caster who will note how huk shaves 8 seconds off that upgrade, the unwashed masses, the people with the ability to make eSports explode would much prefer day9 tell a funny anecdote instead, while still hitting 95% of the game content.
There is two ways players get more money. They take a larger slice of the current pie, or eSports as a whole becomes a more valuable industry and they get the same slice of a bigger pie. Frankly the casters are the link between casual people and competitive SC, the players really aren't. Ask yourself seriously, what would be a bigger financial hit for the future of eSports: Day9 stops doing the daily and quits casting altogether, or the best SC2 player on the planet quits playing starcraft
yes appearance fees have been discussed and I do agree with it's sentiment.. I guess I am more getting at the fact that on an MLG weekend Huk can win 5k$ by besting a field of the best in the industry but casters (across the board) will get paid somewhere in the field of 600% more as a group.
my point is that tourneys at this time are budgeting to take advantage of the voiceless players and pay the self aware casters.. they cannot get a day9 to do a tourney for what a player would do.. nor should they.. but the disparity I would argue, and many would agree.. is way too much. Day9 is a precious commodity and deserves to make a lot of money. But flight, hotel, 2-3k appearance fee and then 20k + from ad revenue seems like a LOT for a weekend of casting a tourney that has a first place prize of 30k.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Players get paid less because they will compete for less (MLG) and being sent to an event to compete is considered an honor for players whereas being sent to cast an event is considered an honor for the event.
That seems directly like an effect of the above.
It's hard to objectively say but I agree there's simply less casters I'll listen to happily than players I'll watch happily. However, I think whether it is a good argument isn't as important as the validity of casters being "overpaid" and players being "underpaid."
Casters can think whatever they like, the business of the event is what is going to drive decisions. Or at least it should.
casters and players in starcraft are becoming more of the burger patty and bread. maybe like a cake and a fork, i'm horrible at metaphors : P----but some games become stale without the help of casters who attempt to add juice and excitement to the match, or point out awesome things that the every-day viewer would not notice or care about.
the further along the event/tournament goes, the sicker the match-ups get. how many times have you hit a must-watch match and just hope and pray your favourite casting duo is scheduled to cover it? i guess this is the demand that people are talking about here. players come and go; increase in level and deteriorate. some casters continue to exist within the scene because of how their personality/character is like. it is hard to change how you are, and i guess... it'd be hard to be hated entirely when you're adored already-----even if being disliked was your intention : P
The whole discussion is gross, if casters are paid "that" much, then that mean the tournaments thinks they are worth that much, that is all there is to know. People like HuK or Incontrol in this thread are missing the point : saying the casters are overpaid have something to do with how the players are treated by tournaments means you considers that the money the tournaments give to casters is somehow "stealed" from players, which is not the case. In reality, the more money casters make, the more people they are suppose to motivate to watch the event, the more money the players should also earn.
And if the players are worth more than what they are actually get, then they need to defend their right, together or alone, with the tournament organisers, and not bitch on casters salaries.
On December 01 2011 07:24 SimDawg wrote: Something I didn't think about is appearance fees. Do Huk or Idra get them? Someone like White-ra even I think might be able to validly make an argument.
TB makes a pretty good point about that, I don't know how much of that has been discussed on the business side of things between teams and events?
No they don't but Boxer does. Inside of korea other top koreans get appearance fees as well.
Casters are the only ones charging for that (and boxer) inside the NA/EU.
On December 01 2011 07:24 SimDawg wrote: Something I didn't think about is appearance fees. Do Huk or Idra get them? Someone like White-ra even I think might be able to validly make an argument.
TB makes a pretty good point about that, I don't know how much of that has been discussed on the business side of things between teams and events?
No they don't but Boxer does. Inside of korea other top koreans get appearance fees as well.
Casters are the only ones charging for that (and boxer) inside the NA/EU.
It is boxer.... Who wouldn't pay to have the emperor show up? :D
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Players get paid less because they will compete for less (MLG) and being sent to an event to compete is considered an honor for players whereas being sent to cast an event is considered an honor for the event.
Why is that the case, in your opinion? I think it's because players are a dime a dozen relative to an elite caster. I watch your stream with some regularity, but I watch it for your personality and interaction, not your sc2 skills, despite the fact you are very very good. Even if I feel like there is a better player streaming (not a troll, bear with me) I'll usually sti choose your stream. Frankly at this point SC2 is all about the ability to draw. And at this point in time a lot of casters are better at it than the players.
Is that ideal? No. But that's how it is.
And if Day9 wants to donate some of his earnings to the players more power to him, but it's not relevant to the topic at hand.
I thought one of the reasons behind teams was having someone with more business savvy to negotiate on behalf of the players? As someone said earlier, there's starting to be enough tournaments that players/teams can pick and choose which ones they'll appear at. If these teams think their players are worth more than they've been getting, they should go to bat for the players.
Telling us what caster incomes are like is poor form and unproductive.
On December 01 2011 07:42 Milkis wrote: Pretty sure BoxeR hasn't gotten any appearance fees for MLG. Pretty sure about that for NASL 1 too. Dunno about IPL but I somehow doubt it.
On December 01 2011 07:42 Milkis wrote: Pretty sure BoxeR hasn't gotten appearance fees for any foreign tournaments he has competed in...
How can you doubt the guy that has no source?
Some proper sources (such as official statements by tournament organizers) would definitely ease this debate significantly, but with this kind of topic I do not think that we will get any.
Players who cast are almost always better than exclusive casters. Why? Well, do I want Kasparov analyzing and commentating the chess match between Anand/Carlsen? OF COURSE! You need to be able to pick apart the details in the right and most enlightening way possible. You need someone on the cutting edge of gameplay with a deep breadth of knowledge that someone who casts exclusively (i.e. doesn't play professionally) cannot fulfill. Slasher is wrong and he's taking up the position of trying to save himself a job (that he clearly needs work on).
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Sorry but that's not how it works.
Do you think there are more great soccer/football players than there are casters? Yes. And the players still make much more.
I am pretty sure there are more doctors in this world then there are sc2 casters. Doctors makes more (i would think anyway lol).
Point being, there are more factors. I don't think the fact that there are more "great" casters than there are great players has much to do with it.
Haha I love how the poster below you objectively proved you wrong. The difference a soccer announcer is replaceable (except maybe the guy who says "goooooaaaaaaalllllll"), soccer players are much less so. The 20th best announcer duo would do fine commentating arsenal vs Manchester United (soccer is gay, are these good teams?). It would still be widely watched and the amount of people who don't watch because of the commentator would be trivial. The absolute best soccer commentator in the world commentating me and 21 buddies kicking it around would not sell.
Casters are more of a draw than players at the moment. Back to my analogy, make a list of the 20 best Sc players and 20 best Sc casters. Would you rather watch 19 play 20 and have it casted by 1 + 2, or have player 1 play player 2 and have it castes by 19 and 20. I think most people would rather watch tasteless and artists cast something like Leenock vs Naniwa (roughly) than some mouth breather cast Nestea vs MC (arbitrary, fill in whoever you want). If you'd rather the latter, you're already a hardcore fan which is all well and good but you aren't who the people making business decision are targeting. You're gonna watch regardless. They are targeting the guy who would watch day9 cast AHGL. That's the average Joe, that's not a diehard SC fanatic who is gonna watch to see how Huk alters his ffe to get a slightly faster +1. The hardcore fan might prefer an analytical caster who will note how huk shaves 8 seconds off that upgrade, the unwashed masses, the people with the ability to make eSports explode would much prefer day9 tell a funny anecdote instead, while still hitting 95% of the game content.
There is two ways players get more money. They take a larger slice of the current pie, or eSports as a whole becomes a more valuable industry and they get the same slice of a bigger pie. Frankly the casters are the link between casual people and competitive SC, the players really aren't. Ask yourself seriously, what would be a bigger financial hit for the future of eSports: Day9 stops doing the daily and quits casting altogether, or the best SC2 player on the planet quits playing starcraft
I don't know who the poster below me you are talking about, but if it's the guy who quoted me he seemed to agree with me.
Anyway about your post. Your first post you said it was pure numbers. I said that that is not correct at all, that there are other factors. You just wrote two big paragraphs about some of those factors lol.
The question you should be asing yourself why is soccer announcers replacable but sc2 casters aren't? There lies the problem imo.There are still more players in any sport than there are casters, but the salary relation isn't the same.
Casters are more famous than the players, that is part of the problem discussed in this thread. In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
On December 01 2011 07:27 Canucklehead wrote: I don't like the idea of appearance fees because that doesn't really fix the problem. The players who can command appearance fees are players like huk/idra, etc who already make a lot of money, so it's just the rich getting richer, while the other players are still in the same boat.
Well that goes back 2 pages ago to what I said, players/teams need to learn to create value for themselves. Why do all the bad/unpopular players deserve money?
Edit: If what Incontrol is arguing is there is a "gap" and the money should be distributed differently, okay. That's valid, certainly at MLG. Maybe less so at other tournaments, but I think it's almost a different issue.
On December 01 2011 07:46 Nagano wrote: Slasher is wrong and he's taking up the position of trying to save himself a job (that he clearly needs work on).
Slasher isn't even a caster, so his job is in no danger.
EPT
