On December 01 2011 07:59 skyrunner wrote: In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
I brought it up in the SOTG thread. Personally the only sport I care about is football. I'll always watch the vikings play being I'm from MN. I'll watch other games too but I outright refuse to watch Monday night football because the casting crew is horse shit. I avoid some of the Sunday day crews like the plague because they're terrible at what they do. But I'll always watch Sunday night games even if I don't particularly care about the game solely because Al Michaels is the best sports caster on the face of the planet.
Bad casters can make things completely unwatchable. I'll even turn off the TV and turn on the Radio to listen to a game instead of watch it. So yeah, casters do matter.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Absolutely false and incorrect.
Casters get paid more because they ask for more money and by nature they are hired to do a job that does not have a "win or lose" clause in it.
Players get paid less because they will compete for less (MLG) and being sent to an event to compete is considered an honor for players whereas being sent to cast an event is considered an honor for the event.
Players arguing that some of that huge cost that goes to casters being met in the middle ground and fed more into the players is not a bad argument. Hell, Day9 has made this point, TB has made this point and I would hardly think tastosis/husky etc.. would argue against this.
You're definitely right that a huge component of it is the paradigm by which the two sides are paid. Casters are paid a set salary as a service whereas, as far as the tournaments are concerned, players have to earn every penny. And it's largely the case in real life sports as well. There's some cash prize for winning the Super Bowl, but it pales in comparison to what Al Michaels or John Saunders makes, and most of the money comes from the teams. Unfortunately, SC2 teams can't support that yet so I agree with you that some middle ground needs to be found until that does happen.
I don't know the specifics of Day9 or what kind of revenue DH had, but I do think a caster like him is worth every penny to most tournaments. It's like the current situation in the NBA. Keeping in mind that it's all part of the entertainment industry and the entire thing is supported by advertising and the number of eyes watching, the top stars in the NBA, even with $20 million dollar salaries, bring in more money for their team than they're paid. As a result, every other NBA player's salary gets bumped up a relative amount due to their performance, even though no one watches a game for the 4th or 5th best player on a team. In this case (and this is speculation on my part), having Day9 cast a tournament is probably more valuable for the tournament's numbers than having HuK or HerO or Naniwa play in your tournament. But, is a lesser known, somewhat prominent caster worth more than those players? Probably not. That's where a lot of the middle ground needs to be made up.
Day9 also happens to be in an extremely unique situation though. No offense to TB, Apollo or anyone else, but Day9 and Tastosis are attractions in and of themselves. I don't think any other casters are.
As for the discussion on player commentators versus dedicated casters, personally HSC3 was my favorite event to date because I prefer in depth analysis more than anything else, but I don't think the average SC2 fan agrees. And ultimately, that's what most event organizers should shoot for. Pro player analysts, unless they're extremely versatile talkers like iNc, will probably remain a niche.
On December 01 2011 07:27 Canucklehead wrote: I don't like the idea of appearance fees because that doesn't really fix the problem. The players who can command appearance fees are players like huk/idra, etc who already make a lot of money, so it's just the rich getting richer, while the other players are still in the same boat.
Well that goes back 2 pages ago to what I said, players/teams need to learn to create value for themselves. Why do all the bad/unpopular players deserve money?
Well I never necessarily meant to say they deserved more money, but someone brought up Huk saying that players deserve more money, which prompted someone to say huk shouldn't talk since he's the highest paid sc2 player. Then incontrol interjected and said huk was talking about players in general. Therefore, I assumed we were talking about the lesser known players deserving more money, which appearance fees don't help since they can't command any appearance fees, so it's still just status quo.
Sc2 is an interesting dynamic because while they do have teams, it's still essentially an individual competition like tennis and golf. In those sports you have to win or place well to make money. However, the key difference is in those sports you can finish like 50th in an event and still make a living off it, while you can't really do that in sc2 without a team salary. I don't really have any answers on how to fix that, but I will say casters like Day9 deserve everything they get and I don't really have a problem with certain casters being bigger stars than players.
On December 01 2011 07:59 skyrunner wrote: In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
I brought it up in the SOTG thread. Personally the only sport I care about is football. I'll always watch the vikings play being I'm from MN. I'll watch other games too but I outright refuse to watch Monday night football because the casting crew is horse shit. I avoid some of the Sunday day crews like the plague because they're terrible at what they do. But I'll always watch Sunday night games even if I don't particularly care about the game solely because Al Michaels is the best sports caster on the face of the planet.
Bad casters can make things completely unwatchable. I'll even turn off the TV and turn on the Radio to listen to a game instead of watch it. So yeah, casters do matter.
Well fair enough, though I think you're an extreme case. Yeah there are casters i can get really irritated at when watching sports, so casters matter, to some degree. But i would never let the casters influence my decision of what game im gonna be watching. And I would guess that's the way it is for most people.
There are some analysts and casters in sports that I really enjoy listening to and respect alot. However I don't think their job is harder than the players or that they work harder to get better at what they do. To have higher salary than the players are just ludicrous imho, and i totally understand the players if they think it's bs.
On December 01 2011 07:59 skyrunner wrote: In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
I brought it up in the SOTG thread. Personally the only sport I care about is football. I'll always watch the vikings play being I'm from MN. I'll watch other games too but I outright refuse to watch Monday night football because the casting crew is horse shit. I avoid some of the Sunday day crews like the plague because they're terrible at what they do. But I'll always watch Sunday night games even if I don't particularly care about the game solely because Al Michaels is the best sports caster on the face of the planet.
Bad casters can make things completely unwatchable. I'll even turn off the TV and turn on the Radio to listen to a game instead of watch it. So yeah, casters do matter.
Well fair enough, though I think you're an extreme case. Yeah there are casters i can get really irritated at when watching sports, so casters matter, to some degree. But i would never let the casters influence my decision of what game im gonna be watching. And I would guess that's the way it is for most people.
There are some analysts and casters in sports that I really enjoy listening to and respect alot. However I don't think their job is harder than the players or that they work harder to get better at what they do. To have higher salary than the players are just ludicrous imho, and i totally understand the players if they think it's bs.
What if it's a sport you're less familiar with, though? John Madden was getting $5 million/yr back in 2005 just for MNF, because he's a huge name with a big video game franchise and he could attract people that recognized the name but didn't closely follow the sport. He certainly didn't get it for his ability to give analysis.
Seems like a lot of players are jealous of the fact that Day9 is making bank casting, which to them seems like something that is a much easier job than they are doing (playing in very competitive tournaments). While I don't disagree that his job is most likely easier, it is missing the point financially.
Day9 is getting paid by the people who are in charge of the tournaments. How do the tournament organizers make money? By getting fans to show up or tune in. Who brings the most fans? Day9. That is why he is making money. Because he is providing the most value to the company.
I saw someone mention that casters have more face time on streams - though this is true, it didn't cause Day9 to become arguably the most popular SC2 related person. He has become so popular because he has provided the community with an awesome service the dailies FOR FREE. He has reached out further and shown more of who he is than anybody else in the community - above and beyond what is required. And not only that but he interacts with the community.
The top players actually have the easiest route to financial success. People tune in to top players because they like to see winners. Making an effort to connect is easy. But Huk, who is ironically the one inferring he should be paid more, does the least reaching out of any streamer.
On December 01 2011 07:59 skyrunner wrote: In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
I brought it up in the SOTG thread. Personally the only sport I care about is football. I'll always watch the vikings play being I'm from MN. I'll watch other games too but I outright refuse to watch Monday night football because the casting crew is horse shit. I avoid some of the Sunday day crews like the plague because they're terrible at what they do. But I'll always watch Sunday night games even if I don't particularly care about the game solely because Al Michaels is the best sports caster on the face of the planet.
Bad casters can make things completely unwatchable. I'll even turn off the TV and turn on the Radio to listen to a game instead of watch it. So yeah, casters do matter.
Well fair enough, though I think you're an extreme case. Yeah there are casters i can get really irritated at when watching sports, so casters matter, to some degree. But i would never let the casters influence my decision of what game im gonna be watching. And I would guess that's the way it is for most people.
There are some analysts and casters in sports that I really enjoy listening to and respect alot. However I don't think their job is harder than the players or that they work harder to get better at what they do. To have higher salary than the players are just ludicrous imho, and i totally understand the players if they think it's bs.
What if it's a sport you're less familiar with, though? John Madden was getting $5 million/yr back in 2005 just for MNF, because he's a huge name with a big video game franchise and he could attract people that recognized the name but didn't closely follow the sport. He certainly didn't get it for his ability to give analysis.
Hmm im not sure what i'd do if that was the case. Sports is something that you grow up with so people are usually familiar with it. With more obscure sports the broadcasters usually make sure to keep it at a introductory level while still being able to give deeper insight. I always prefer to get deep insights as well in whatever im watching, no matter how new i am to the sport. But i guess alot of people might be different from me.
Im guessing in the Madden case there is alot competition between the networks instead of him pulling in the viewers himself. People choose before the season what subscription to get instead of choosing on game by game basis?
I'm sure Husky is a huge draw. Personally i don't think he is a "great" caster at all, ala John Madden. He problably brings in the dough though. I don't know where im going with this but i'd rather the players be stars than casters. I guess people just want easy access and that they have more of a personal relationship with casters in sc2, alone in front of your pc rather than in the couch with family/friends.
Bottom line, in sports, people watch the lakers because of Kobe, not because Bob Johnsson is speaking into the mic.
On December 01 2011 08:50 Snijjer wrote: But Huk, who is ironically the one inferring he should be paid more, does the least reaching out of any streamer.
Before you put words in someone's mouth please actually READ the thread.
On December 01 2011 08:50 Snijjer wrote: But Huk, who is ironically the one inferring he should be paid more, does the least reaching out of any streamer.
Before you put words in someone's mouth please actually READ the thread.
I did, and that's what I got out of what he said.
Looking back on the thread there many who felt the same way.
I think the big theme from this, as well as last night's discussion on State of the Game, is that in the current state of affairs, casters are treated better than players by tournaments and fans, they make more money, and they're a lot more famous. We need to treat the players better. I'm not saying it's up to the community to do this, but things like sending MKP to Disneyland are a step in the right direction. Get-Huk-a-new-pillow fund, anyone?
Events are usually going to pay casters more than players. It kind of sucks, but it makes sense as a business decision. Especially given the nature of eSports, where much of the audiences experience with the product will be through the casters. The players make the sport, absolutely, but they, sadly, don't make all of the money for the event holders. You see the same thing in any professional sport. The Monday Night Football crew gets paid quite a bit more than your average NFL player. Now, of course there is always going to be some kind of Tom Brady type who gets way more than any caster, but in general, the sad fact is: the individual players don't make the tournament money. The winners make the tournament money, and so usually receive the largest chunk of the cash.
It's sad and it's totally Machiavellian, but it's how things are done; and I'm not unconvinced that it's the way things have to be done. It may sound harsh, but does a guy who is really good, but never wins tournaments or makes the finals, gonna bring that much of a draw to the event? Someone like MVP, who wins a lot of tournaments and is able to build recognition; he can bring a lot of people. It is similar to the reason why the guy who wins gets 50,000 and the guy who takes second gets half that; if he gets that much. Now, a good, recognizable, and well-liked Caster, he can bring a tournament a lot of draw just by being there. He/She has a fan-base, has name recognition, and furthermore; the interest they generate is not dependent upon how well they do in the tournament. If there was a huge tournament with all the big names, but a bunch of no-names knocked them out; a lot of people might not care about watching the rest of the tournament. The event planners have to think about those possible business costs and risks; and pay accordingly.
In the end, as the business grows and becomes more secure; pay and financial security will also rise. But there will always be those who make more and those who make less; and following the example of other professional sports; it will probably not be weighted in the players favor.
On December 01 2011 06:55 Dubsy wrote: Casters get paid more because there are fewer great casters than great players. Pretty simple really.
Sorry but that's not how it works.
Do you think there are more great soccer/football players than there are casters? Yes. And the players still make much more.
I am pretty sure there are more doctors in this world then there are sc2 casters. Doctors makes more (i would think anyway lol).
Point being, there are more factors. I don't think the fact that there are more "great" casters than there are great players has much to do with it.
Haha I love how the poster below you objectively proved you wrong. The difference a soccer announcer is replaceable (except maybe the guy who says "goooooaaaaaaalllllll"), soccer players are much less so. The 20th best announcer duo would do fine commentating arsenal vs Manchester United (soccer is gay, are these good teams?). It would still be widely watched and the amount of people who don't watch because of the commentator would be trivial. The absolute best soccer commentator in the world commentating me and 21 buddies kicking it around would not sell.
Casters are more of a draw than players at the moment. Back to my analogy, make a list of the 20 best Sc players and 20 best Sc casters. Would you rather watch 19 play 20 and have it casted by 1 + 2, or have player 1 play player 2 and have it castes by 19 and 20. I think most people would rather watch tasteless and artists cast something like Leenock vs Naniwa (roughly) than some mouth breather cast Nestea vs MC (arbitrary, fill in whoever you want). If you'd rather the latter, you're already a hardcore fan which is all well and good but you aren't who the people making business decision are targeting. You're gonna watch regardless. They are targeting the guy who would watch day9 cast AHGL. That's the average Joe, that's not a diehard SC fanatic who is gonna watch to see how Huk alters his ffe to get a slightly faster +1. The hardcore fan might prefer an analytical caster who will note how huk shaves 8 seconds off that upgrade, the unwashed masses, the people with the ability to make eSports explode would much prefer day9 tell a funny anecdote instead, while still hitting 95% of the game content.
There is two ways players get more money. They take a larger slice of the current pie, or eSports as a whole becomes a more valuable industry and they get the same slice of a bigger pie. Frankly the casters are the link between casual people and competitive SC, the players really aren't. Ask yourself seriously, what would be a bigger financial hit for the future of eSports: Day9 stops doing the daily and quits casting altogether, or the best SC2 player on the planet quits playing starcraft
I don't know who the poster below me you are talking about, but if it's the guy who quoted me he seemed to agree with me.
Anyway about your post. Your first post you said it was pure numbers. I said that that is not correct at all, that there are other factors. You just wrote two big paragraphs about some of those factors lol.
The question you should be asing yourself why is soccer announcers replacable but sc2 casters aren't? There lies the problem imo.There are still more players in any sport than there are casters, but the salary relation isn't the same.
Casters are more famous than the players, that is part of the problem discussed in this thread. In any other sport does anyone really make a decision what game they're gonna watch depending on who is casting, or depending on who is playing?
The post below you I refer to is the gentleman who says he enjoys watching a bunch of no-names play in the AHGL because day9 is casting it.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about when you say numbers. The number of great casters vs the number of great players is what I'm assuming because that's all my first post mentioned. My second post was just to try to help understand why the "numbers" are the way they are.
You say yourself "casters are more famous than the players," which at this time quite obviously seems to be the case. At least in terms of the elite casters. You can have a successful tournament without having 2-3 of the best players; it's harder to have a tournament without 2-3 of the best casters.
You're pissed off because you think this is inherently a problem. If I had it my way, yeah, the players would get more money than they do and more money than the casters. But as it stands the casters get more because they generate more money. It's how society works bro. Would it be cool if the guy who works 70 hour weeks cleaning the shitters at a law firm makes the same living as the partners? Sure, I think we all have a little socialist revolution somewhere deep down inside us, but it's a capitalist world. You're paid for the value you bring and the real tip top casters (Day, Artosis, Tasteless, etc) are more valuable than the players.
I'm not gonna speculate too hard but part of it is because SC2 is such an impersonal game. You have so much more interaction with the casters than the players (while the game is going on, players are really accessible outside the game to their credit). I would guess that the focus, and in turn the money, shifts toward the players if eSports blows up, but I still don't think it would ever reach the level of disparity you see in an NBA or NFL superstar and the crew calling the game. Just a different animal.
When casters stop getting the top billing at SC2 tournaments i'll probably take the scene a bit more serious. I don't put blame on anyone for the way it is over here, the community worships casters and the event hosts would be stupid to ignore that, so we're in the situation we're in.
For all the esports chanting that goes on the scene often times more closely resembles a game show to me, where the players are these unwitting contestants no one really cares about at the end of the day and should consider themselves so fortunate to have their chance at a prize.
On December 01 2011 08:19 skyrunner wrote: Well fair enough, though I think you're an extreme case. Yeah there are casters i can get really irritated at when watching sports, so casters matter, to some degree. But i would never let the casters influence my decision of what game im gonna be watching. And I would guess that's the way it is for most people.
There are some analysts and casters in sports that I really enjoy listening to and respect alot. However I don't think their job is harder than the players or that they work harder to get better at what they do. To have higher salary than the players are just ludicrous imho, and i totally understand the players if they think it's bs.
I very well may be an extreme case. I'll watch MNF, or endure one of the awful Sunday crews if I have to but ONLY if the Vikings are playing and I won't be happy about it. If it bugs me too much I'll run errands and listen on the car radio where I know what I'm getting is far superior than the given trash on TV.
Working harder than players I think depends on the player and the tourney in question. Something like MLG seems like it'd be a bitch of a marathon for casters and players alike to get through the whole weekend. Some of the tourneys that are more diced up the casters still have to do all the games while the players might not be playing as much on a given day.
As I said in the SOTG thread it's just a weird situation right now. Things are in their infancy but they're getting bigger. Which of course involves growing pains for any league. Right now casters might be a bigger draw for some people than (most) of the players. I know a friend that won't watch a tourney unless day[9] is casting it. Hell he won't even watch a game in a tourney unless he's the one casting that specific game.
So how does it all get fixed? I'm guessing through some sort of unionizing of players, the tourneys laying down their rules and structure in very bold black and white terms, owners/team management being a go between. From that point I think everything falls into place with caster pay vs player pay, shit talking between parties during an event, etc.
If everyone plays their cards right players become more prevalent to more people and get paid for their talent level. Casters aren't (potentially) scratching by. Rules are clear, concise and followed and the whole thing gets bigger (without over saturating the market plz. That is 100000000000000000000000000 times worse than under saturating). If things turn into a pissing match and one group thinks they're more important than the other things can fall apart in a hurry. It is possible among sensible human beings to sort things out fairly for all involved.
But yes, my overall point before is the best game in the world can become entirely unwatchable solely based on the presenters. If MLG got rid of Artosis, Day[9], Tasteless, Wheat, etc and replaced it with my mom or your uncle or some hobo from under a bridge literally no one would watch it, even if Jesus was playing against Idra with Satan sitting on his shoulder for the fate of the universe.
TaKe (http://www.taketv.net) is a great, but only German caster. He invested more money in Esports than any other caster i know. (His flat is the place where HSC takes place) ... haha,TaKe's Place . He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (http://www.taketv.net/ladder). Furthermore he always encourages people to do something sor esports (just like incontrol often does) His (featured on TL) stream has around 1-3k viewer. But I really can't explain to myself that this is enough to pay everything. His move was extremely risky. It's a sign for his passion for StarCraft and esports. He's contracted by the ESL and casts various shows within Germany, but the famous names of ESL.TV are still MrBItter and Rotterdam, because they act internationally. He is a real inspiration for me (The little North German league, that i contributed to SC). Take it from here, TaKe! (He is former WC3 Pro, WC3 Caster)
To get to the point: If TaKe is able to do so much with so little, why is Day9 still sitting in his little room and doing the dailies with his unprofessional equipment?
it can't be a lack of supporters. I hope he will build up something great, just like TaKe.
EDIT: I just thought that it would fit in the thread, because lots of you liked the creative HSC with its intimate atmosphere...
The assumption seems to be that more physical work should equal more money... which kind of flies in the face of "good business". It would seem that those who make the most money should get the most money; and, for whatever reason, those who make money don't always work as hard, physically, as those who make less money.
The inherent assumption that those who work harder physically work harder in general is a very flawed one.
On December 01 2011 07:30 iNcontroL wrote: yes appearance fees have been discussed and I do agree with it's sentiment.. I guess I am more getting at the fact that on an MLG weekend Huk can win 5k$ by besting a field of the best in the industry but casters (across the board) will get paid somewhere in the field of 600% more as a group.
my point is that tourneys at this time are budgeting to take advantage of the voiceless players and pay the self aware casters.. they cannot get a day9 to do a tourney for what a player would do.. nor should they.. but the disparity I would argue, and many would agree.. is way too much. Day9 is a precious commodity and deserves to make a lot of money. But flight, hotel, 2-3k appearance fee and then 20k + from ad revenue seems like a LOT for a weekend of casting a tourney that has a first place prize of 30k.
Wow you really, pretty much said everything i was thinking about when i came into this thread. Well Put. Everyone needs to see this post.
On December 01 2011 09:22 PeterUstinox wrote: TaKe (http://www.taketv.net) is a great, but only German caster. He invested more money in Esports than any other caster i know. (His flat is the place where HSC takes place) ... haha,TaKe's Place . He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (http://www.taketv.net/ladder). Furthermore he always encourages people to do something sor esports (just like incontrol often does) His (featured on TL) stream has around 1-3k viewer. But I really can't explain to myself that this is enough to pay everything. His move was extremely risky. It's a sign for his passion for StarCraft and esports. He's contracted by the ESL and casts various shows within Germany, but the famous names of ESL.TV are still MrBItter and Rotterdam, because they act internationally. He is a real inspiration for me (The little North German league, that i contributed to SC). Take it from here, TaKe! (He is former WC3 Pro, WC3 Caster)
To get to the point: If TaKe is able to do so much with so little, why is Day9 still sitting in his little room and doing the dailies with his unprofessional equipment?
it can't be a lack of supporters. I hope he will build up something great, just like TaKe.
EDIT: I just thought that it would fit in the thread, because lots of you liked the creative HSC with its intimate atmosphere...
Day9's daily has already contributed more to the sc2 community than Take has ever done. HSC is overrated. It's good for a one off tournament, but any more than that is overkill. It's basically just guys drinking and playing sc2 at a person's apartment and had a very unpforessional feel to it, which was the point of it. It felt like a lan party someone just threw, which is fine for a one off event, but shouldn't be hyped up beyond what it is because it's essentially a glorified lan in someone's basement. I personally didn't find watching gamers drinking on couches appealing and they should save it for the after party.
On December 01 2011 09:22 PeterUstinox wrote: TaKe (http://www.taketv.net) is a great, but only German caster. He invested more money in Esports than any other caster i know. (His flat is the place where HSC takes place) ... haha,TaKe's Place . He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (http://www.taketv.net/ladder). Furthermore he always encourages people to do something sor esports (just like incontrol often does) His (featured on TL) stream has around 1-3k viewer. But I really can't explain to myself that this is enough to pay everything. His move was extremely risky. It's a sign for his passion for StarCraft and esports. He's contracted by the ESL and casts various shows within Germany, but the famous names of ESL.TV are still MrBItter and Rotterdam, because they act internationally. He is a real inspiration for me (The little North German league, that i contributed to SC). Take it from here, TaKe! (He is former WC3 Pro, WC3 Caster)
To get to the point: If TaKe is able to do so much with so little, why is Day9 still sitting in his little room and doing the dailies with his unprofessional equipment?
it can't be a lack of supporters. I hope he will build up something great, just like TaKe.
EDIT: I just thought that it would fit in the thread, because lots of you liked the creative HSC with its intimate atmosphere...
people give in different ways, and i'm not sure how to word that beautifully or optimistically.
he has done quite a lot since his earlier days of not playing starcraft as a pro-gamer---so much that it bloomed this entire casting thing along with nick in korea and (shortly after) artosis at the time. sitting in his 'little room' is his own choice and may have to do with sentiments and such. i have heard somewhere about what mic he uses, which would be a 'professional' one if that were the ca se. since he is able to stream in HD, i would say that chunk of what he provides in dailies is not unprofessional either.
take made his own choices and has his own style (a very cool one at that!). so how can you compare either of them in the end? they both just clearly want to enjoy the game and be nice to the community on a daily human basis
:/ canucklehead's comment is quite harsh... rofl. quite full of hate too if i may say
EPT
. He organizes his own BarCraft (HomeCraft, as it is called) and he also provides his own ladder with prizes for people, who play a lot 1v1 SC ladder (
