EPTI had no idea that even the sub par ones were 'overpaid' like huk says though... that is pretty sad considering most pro players get nothing beside tourney wins and live in poverty.. somethings wrong here.
The Analytical Caster - A Twitter Story - Page 15
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Lavi
Bangladesh793 Posts
I had no idea that even the sub par ones were 'overpaid' like huk says though... that is pretty sad considering most pro players get nothing beside tourney wins and live in poverty.. somethings wrong here. | ||
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ES_JohnClark
United States1121 Posts
Has anyone heard mouz.kaelaris or barbarbossa? Both are more analytical in nature and neither are pro players. Besides.. the best pro in the world may have insight into a game..but it may be very specific to his style and it certainly does not mean that he can put together a full sentence. Personally.. I think there is a lot of talent out there that is untapped because the community is too busy riding the @#$@'s of a few select casters just because they were 'first' or because they create drama or simply because some of us are too dumb to know what's good and whats not. I do agree that in SC2 it seems as if the casters are more the celebrities then the players. | ||
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flowSthead
1065 Posts
On December 01 2011 11:31 VvyzZ wrote: I wish people would stop talking about Day9's 'free' dailies as though their creation is some incredibly altruistic act done only to benefit the gaming community. Don't be such suckers. He gets ad revenues, sells merchandise, sells subscriptions, solicits donations... the 'dailies' product being given away for free is simply the best business model available. It's like saying Riot Games makes LoL only for the love of gamers and not to make money because it's 'free'. That's fucking retarded. He's making big bank off of his work and that's why he'll continue to do it. Good for him, it's a great business model and he attacked the market ferociously at the game's launch. He deserves it. If he tried to charge for the actual dailies people would fuck right off and not watch. That's how video content on the Internet is consumed and monetized. As for why casters get paid more, I answered that a few pages back and it went ignored. I guess I don't have enough posts to have what I type read. As someone who has worked in the entertainment business for nearly two decades, this thread is like listening to a bunch of kids learning about money for the first time. Are you seriously that ignorant? I mean maybe you just doubt Day9's veracity, but he has stated multiple times that if Starcraft falls through completely, and he has to work at a pizza hut for the rest of his life he would still sit in his room and analyze games. That is actually the thing that he loves the most. He does the daily because he loves it. Yes, he makes a lot of money doing it, and that is awesome because it means he can devote his time to doing it well rather than have to work at a Pizza Hut. But he doesn't do it to make money. There is a big difference between Riot making a product [LoL] for the purposes of generating profit that happens to be under a microtransaction model, and Day9 making a product [The Daily] for the purposes of enjoying Starcraft that happens to generate a profit. Just because they both happen to lead to the same thing doesn't mean the process to get there isn't important. Do you want to know why Day9 is hella loved in the community? It's because he does the dailies out of love. As far as I can tell, that hasn't changed. I obviously don't know Day9 as well as the people in this community that have been here for years, or his friends and casters, but excluding the business acumen side of it, it seems like Day9 and people like him (Artosis) are doing Starcraft because they love the game more than anything else. That's why Day9 does the daily, and that is why despite him making bank of it, the fact that it is free is the more important part since it is the act of sharing that content that makes it cool. That could be wrong though. At this point, you are perfectly right that having it be for pay would royally stupid, and maybe Day9 is only in it for the money. But let's not ignore that in his first dailies Day9 was ecstatic when he hit 500 viewers. I for one choose to believe that the money is a nice benefit, and SC is Day9/Artosis crack. | ||
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Pertinacious
United States82 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:48 DoomsVille wrote: If there is a problem between casters and players, it is created by the viewers. The great divide in how they are treated is because tournament organizers realize what generates viewers: casters. Casters are celebrities in our community. We will watch day[9] cast an event regardless of whose playing. He could be casting bronze scrubs and get 10k viewers. On the other hand, a relatively unknown caster could be casting two Code S level Korean players and only have a few hundred viewers. The inequality is entirely created by the community that believes the quality of an event is based on whose casting as oppose to the players participating. It's time to realize guys, the blame is on us. We need to expand our horizons and choose what events we watch based on it's merits, not on its commentators. Until we start doing this, celebrity casters that generate viewers will always be a priority for event organizers. I do choose which events I watch based on their merits. Commentators are a big part of that. The player roster matters too, as does the format and the amount of downtime between games, but I'm not going to pretend that I don't enjoy watching a tournament much more when one of my favorite casters is commentating. A lot of matches aren't that exciting, and a lot of players aren't that interesting to watch. Without color commentary I'd probably just tune out until the finals, or simply watch recommended VoDs after the fact. So as a viewer, I'm perfectly content to "take the blame," even though I think players should be looking at their team management to get them a better deal, instead of just envying casters. | ||
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Klyberess
Sweden345 Posts
On December 01 2011 11:31 VvyzZ wrote: I wish people would stop talking about Day9's 'free' dailies as though their creation is some incredibly altruistic act done only to benefit the gaming community. Don't be such suckers. He gets ad revenues, sells merchandise, sells subscriptions, solicits donations... the 'dailies' product being given away for free is simply the best business model available. It's like saying Riot Games makes LoL only for the love of gamers and not to make money because it's 'free'. That's fucking retarded. He's making big bank off of his work and that's why he'll continue to do it. Good for him, it's a great business model and he attacked the market ferociously at the game's launch. He deserves it. If he tried to charge for the actual dailies people would fuck right off and not watch. That's how video content on the Internet is consumed and monetized. As for why casters get paid more, I answered that a few pages back and it went ignored. I guess I don't have enough posts to have what I type read. As someone who has worked in the entertainment business for nearly two decades, this thread is like listening to a bunch of kids learning about money for the first time. :D this is delightfully cynical. hardly true, of course, but still. | ||
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ES_JohnClark
United States1121 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:02 iNcontroL wrote: Normally I just try and ignore idiot forum people who actually have no idea and try to post to defame or spread lies about a community figure but in this case I will make an exception.. I was not making up numbers they are speculated by the DH staff and discussed alongside numerous players who attended and discussed this. Go away troll Key word there iNcontrol was 'speculated'.. my educated guess is that number you give is a bit high.  | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
I do believe that constantly looking forward to making e-sports more professional is silly, starcraft is it's own thing, and it is special. We shouldn't conform to things like baseball which are completely different. E-sports has something special that nothing else in the world has, and we shouldn't try and change that. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:39 Dubsy wrote: Why is that the case, in your opinion? I think it's because players are a dime a dozen relative to an elite caster. A lot of the casters being chosen for tournaments are hardly elite though; not even close. It's just been a self-fulfilling cycle of the same people being picked for every event therefore leading to this false impression. The fact that people are willing to put up with and even enjoy non-analytical casting of what is supposed to be a strategy game is just a sad reflection on the viewerbase. I doubt the people who enjoy this willl even be long-term viewers because it won't even remain interesting. People keep saying 'oh well in <other sport> players don't cast' as if it's relevent. If they could have players cast then they would, do you think say Chess has people who don't know the game to a high level casting? | ||
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ES_JohnClark
United States1121 Posts
On December 01 2011 13:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: To me is just seems like Slasher being Slasher TBH. I do believe that constantly looking forward to making e-sports more professional is silly, starcraft is it's own thing, and it is special. We shouldn't conform to things like baseball which are completely different. E-sports has something special that nothing else in the world has, and we shouldn't try and change that. The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago | ||
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YMCApylons
Taiwan359 Posts
On December 01 2011 14:02 csn_JohnClark wrote: The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago Keep telling yourself that...SC2 is a legitimate spectator sport because of two things alone. KeSPA creating the modern BW pro-scene, and Blizzard making a competitive successor to BW. The SC2 scene now is where BW was in like 2002, and light-years ahead of CS/Quake/Unreal/Halo at any time in the past 10 years. BW is the only surviving game from the first WCG, to be replaced this year by SC2. Every sign points to SC2 not being just like every other esport game, but being like BW - in other words, far-and-above the rest. You might be able to get away with statements like that elsewhere, but not here. A lot of the old hands from the foreign BW scene are too kind to say these things themselves, because they have to get along with all the new carpetbaggers. But just remember, before Day9 was a SC2 casting superstar, he was the guy who wrote this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=80595 He's earned his place in the Starcraft community, as have have a few others. We all know who they are. The rest...well, frankly I don't give a damn about them. I don't care about e-sports, I care about starcraft. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but don't be surprised when you find that the Starcraft viewer doesn't care about Team X or Y (ninja edit: TL excepted, of course), they care about the players, or when your viewer numbers take a nose-dive because you've hired your shiny know-nothing "professional e-sports casters" rather than Starcraft casters who command respect in the Starcraft community. Pro-SC2 comes from Korean pro-BW. SC2 will continue to evolve, but for now, its a different community, different rules. | ||
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YMCApylons
Taiwan359 Posts
On December 01 2011 11:31 VvyzZ wrote: I wish people would stop talking about Day9's 'free' dailies as though their creation is some incredibly altruistic act done only to benefit the gaming community. Don't be such suckers. He gets ad revenues, sells merchandise, sells subscriptions, solicits donations... the 'dailies' product being given away for free is simply the best business model available. It's like saying Riot Games makes LoL only for the love of gamers and not to make money because it's 'free'. That's fucking retarded. He's making big bank off of his work and that's why he'll continue to do it. Good for him, it's a great business model and he attacked the market ferociously at the game's launch. He deserves it. If he tried to charge for the actual dailies people would fuck right off and not watch. That's how video content on the Internet is consumed and monetized. As for why casters get paid more, I answered that a few pages back and it went ignored. I guess I don't have enough posts to have what I type read. As someone who has worked in the entertainment business for nearly two decades, this thread is like listening to a bunch of kids learning about money for the first time. I don't know how much he makes, but he's earned it. You're right, it's a business, and it's not altruistic. But Day9 has been in the Starcraft community long before he started making money off of it. That's the difference. It's passion, knowledge and skill in Starcraft first, money second. What I can't stand is the mentality of the "OMG e-sports!" people who have rushed in like desert wanderers to an oasis, with no knowledge and no respect for the Starcraft community, trying to make a quick buck, and some of the naive SC2 newcomers who take them seriously. They deserve each other. Again...don't care about e-sports. Don't care about team EG. Don't care about MLG. EG supports some players I like, and MLG uses some casters and hosts some matches between players I like. I don't mind at all that they make money doing it. But they're sadly mistaken if they think viewer loyalty lies with "ESPORTS!" rather than players and casters of the starcraft community. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
NFL minimum salary alone isn't that much behind what commentators make (for their commentating that is, most of them have other media jobs too). And even ignoring the fact that a lot of players make far more than the minimum, NFL commentators aren't "stars." The analogy isn't perfectly accurate because they are completely different sports. But it is interesting that looking at the relative LIFETIME incomes of players and casters, the casters probably get a way better deal. NFL commentators aren't stars, but they are important to the presentation of the game. Which leads to my next point: People don't specifically watch football games to hear the commentary like SC2 viewers do for casters. I've never heard of anyone losing their shit over Al Michaels, and he's about as famous as sportscasters get. Meanwhile, Day9, Artosis, Tasteless, Djwheat, HD, Husky, Totalbiscuit, etc. are all bigger deals than half the players who make the top 8 in every tournament. Football is a much simpler game, on it's face, than Starcraft is. Furthermore, Football has been played for close to three centuries, and is a much greater part of the fabric of American society than Starcraft is. People can watch a game of football without a commentator and know what is going on, even the layman. Starcraft2 is not so simple for the layman to understand or track. A good commentator is important because they help people who are just fans understand the game, and the players. More casual fans have more exposure to the caster than the player, which will lead to more money flowing in the direction of the caster. Are you kidding me? Anybody in the NFL, NBA, NHL, etc, make FAR more than people not involved in professional sports. From a quick search, I can see that Antwan Barnes makes 1.6 million a year. Yeah, a lot of people involved in olympic sports or in minor leagues or whatever don't make a whole lot. Neither do unpopular commentators Average salary for college graduates is $46,000/year, I believe. Average NFL salary is what, close to a million, based on position? Factor in that the average is heavily skewed because of a few superstar players. Also consider that Football is a MUCH more dangerous job than your average job, requires years of training, tens of thousands of dollars in equipment, supplements, health, etc. and the average career length for a player in the NFL? 3.5 years. That's also without factoring in superstars like Brett Farve who was playing for 20 years. Most NFL players won't last two years, and won't be paid more than a couple hundred thousand for their years of work and training; and the likelihood is that they didn't graduate college, instead opting for the early draft. They are also likely to have sustained some kind of serious injury. Also recent studies have shown that NFL players are dying earlier and suffer more brain damage than your average person. Sounds like a great deal, huh? You made the perfect point. Neither do UNPOPULAR commentators. It's a dog-eat-dog world, and popular commentators will always get money, whereas unpopular ones will not. But take heart. The scene is growing. Money is flowing in at a faster rate. It looks like sunny skies and clear roads ahead. As money grows, so will player financial security. After all, being in the NFL isn't that bad a deal. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
The real area eSports will need to grow in as things hopefully continue to steadily grow is at the middle and bottom end of the spectrum. Only by growing in those areas will you be able to foster the best possible talent in the industry. Be it a player, caster, a ref, or the lighting guy....unless at bare minimum you can pay your bills in the pursuit of the top, you won't have a system in place that truly fosters the best possible talent. Rather you will have a system that in place where the success or failure of the industry will bank on enough people being so passionate about it that it will continue to thrive and grow. Which essentially is what we have right now, were the majority of people known or not known to the community keep it all going simply out of their love for it and not because they can actually make a living off it. I think that eSports is moving in the right direction though and hopefully as time progresses will reach a level that pursuing a career in it will be practical regardless of if you reach the top or not. As long as things head in that direction will have something that will have continued growth and be sustainable into the future. Rather then being a bubble that bursts when peoples passion alone is simply not enough to keep it growing. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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budar
175 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:13 iNcontroL wrote: I am not arguing you are at fault for negotiating good terms.. I am arguing that people like Huk and other player "leaders" are in their right to argue that perhaps a lot of what the casters have been negotiated for themselves should find more middle ground with the players when it comes to tourneys. The point is that what you make in "a market" is closely related to your replaceability. The fact of the matter is that there are very few super popular casters which makes them less replaceable. On the other hand, there are a lot more really good players that people want to watch play and that unfortunately makes individual players more replaceable. Having a tournament cast by lousy casters can ruin it much faster than not having a few of the very top players attend (*every* tournament has a few really top players missing - e.g. stephano, demuslim, socke were not in providence, and I bet hardly anyone noticed... they sure were never mentioned by the casters as missing, even though we had some diamond players in the tournament). You yourself have spoken about players making a name for themselves (besides just quality of play), and that is exactly what I'm talking about. These casters have made huge names for themselves and are benefiting from it greatly. Btw, I totally agree that players should be making more than casters (and a lot more), but the fact that it seems logical and "fair" really doesn't mean anything in "a market" (I'm sure everyone can think of hundreds of examples where pay rates are completely illogical). However, I also think that considering that SC2 eSports is just growing (tournaments are saying they are operating at a loss, and with all the money they're giving out, I'm inclined to believe them), I also think the pay distribution among the player base is way too much top-heavy. An argument could be made that it would be more "fair" or better for the SC2 eSport to have more players that can afford a decent living with their play than having maybe 10 players and 5-6 casters getting a ton of money - but again, that doesn't matter, it's a market... The disparity in pay between the "best" western player (let's say Huk) and say the 200th player skill-wise (who is probably a Korean none of us have ever heard of) is literally infinite - and we can't fix that, and most of you guys wouldn't even want to . | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10834 Posts
On November 30 2011 08:31 Xanatoss wrote: The point is I really dont bother about Slashers ambitions but everytime I read his name its connected to either a very controversial discussion or plain stupid drama. And I get really tired of this. It does not get better when your watching his show. I don't know about the other games but his "general" opinions on how the Starcraft 2 scene and it's community should grow/evlolve seem "strange" (to not say they sound like made up by a 6 year old) | ||
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budar
175 Posts
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Pertinacious
United States82 Posts
On December 02 2011 00:25 budar wrote: Oh yes, and when I said "a ton of money", I literally meant a ton of money. With all due respect to TotalBiscuit and all the casters who've had rough weekends, earning six figures either casting or playing is being insanely overpaid by the "fairness" argument. The money that's buying the MLG/GSL passes, airplane tickets, all the HotPockets, the computers/games/game-cards for these kids that tune in to the streams etc. and that is making this thing grow is being earned by real people, most of which work hard at jobs that are a lot less fun and are paid a lot worse. And I'm not saying you don't respect that, it's just that it's not something that will ever get fixed and that's exactly why most people never talk about salaries - it's pointless. By "literally" you mean "figuratively," right? ^.^ TB has already posted in the thread to say he takes a loss on most/all casting gigs he goes to. Even if we simply focus on the better-off players and casters, I'm not sure what you're getting at with your post. Are you asserting that it isn't fair for them to make a lot of money, because their fans don't make a lot of money? | ||
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hmsrenown
Canada1263 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:46 Nagano wrote: Players who cast are almost always better than exclusive casters. Why? Well, do I want Kasparov analyzing and commentating the chess match between Anand/Carlsen? OF COURSE! You need to be able to pick apart the details in the right and most enlightening way possible. You need someone on the cutting edge of gameplay with a deep breadth of knowledge that someone who casts exclusively (i.e. doesn't play professionally) cannot fulfill. Slasher is wrong and he's taking up the position of trying to save himself a job (that he clearly needs work on). Kasparov is retired. And chess needs no color commentating for the initiated. Chess lacks the eye to layman. Additionally, every player must play both black and white pieces. Still, Kasparov would do a slightly worse job than Adams or Timman when commentating the Pirc...see the parallel here? It's like a better form of HuK commentating a ZvZ. I have to say that for Starcraft to grow, laymen must be attracted on some degree. I can turn off baseball commentary and enjoy the game by learning from the pros, while I absolutely cannot bear a NFL game muted. I'm sure the same goes for a lot of the silver, gold, even platinum players watching tourneys. Here at TL, posters generally have better understanding of the game then the median of active Starcraft 2 players. It is dangerous, in terms of outreach, to suggest we could get by with only technical analysis. If that is done, then it is a possibility that Starcraft would turn into an Olympic sport, high-level, impressive, but never heard by the masses. | ||
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