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Keep the discussion civil, please. |
HuK wrote:
@Slasher well ur comments were pretty ignorant as usual. if players were smart tho most would transition to casters; its a better job
An ignorant statement to combat Slashers supposed ignorant statement. I see we've come round full circle.
The point is players get paid to play, not to cast. For Starcraft 2 to succeed outside of Korea it needs to establish a foundation. One where players play, casters cast, journalist journal, cameramen camera.
I believe that top tier players have the analytical skills to cast, and some even the personality to back it. However, as long as they are paid to play professionally, or even compete in tournaments including prize money, they shouldn't be casting.
Huk, and any other of the agreeing players who think they should be able to cast should look towards Korea. There is a chain of command. One that is much more developed, and has had the time to do so. Plenty of Brood War professional's retired, and when they did they were left with an option. Walk away from esports, become a coach, cast, etc, etc etc etc. Pro league has been casted by retired professionals, the same way baseball is casted by retired players.
It seems Huk lost his humility after leaving liquid, because I remember an incident where Huk handled himself immaturely and Nazgul quarter backed the pr. But after that Huk was as humble as Jesus himself.
It seems Huk is hungry for either an argument or a spotlight making left field statements like this.
The bottom line is a hierarchy, a system of some sort needs to be established. People can't just do whatever they want.
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I am determined to become a analytical caster. And couple of pro-gamers will help me... hopefully I do become one. If you guys are wondering what the hell I am on about, you could check my post in SC2 General thread.
I personally think that analytical commentaries will make players are not better to think like pro-gamers to act like pro-gamers. And that is what I will try to do. I also wrote a very controversial thread (which is outdated now) about 1/1/1 if you guys remember. I hope I really can connect Korean community with non-Korean community. A video is coming soon : )
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On December 04 2011 02:21 CryingPoo wrote:
I am determined to become a analytical caster. And couple of pro-gamers will help me... hopefully I do become one. If you guys are wondering what the hell I am on about, you could check my post in SC2 General thread.
I personally think that analytical commentaries will make players are not better to think like pro-gamers to act like pro-gamers. And that is what I will try to do. I also wrote a very controversial thread (which is outdated now) about 1/1/1 if you guys remember. I hope I really can connect Korean community with non-Korean community. A video is coming soon : )
Can't wait to see it!
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On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote:
I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it.
Yup, it's funny because its true. If anyone's seen Home Story Cup or when the players stepped it up for Dream Hack, they would know that a lot of the players aren't biased at all when they cast. For me it was a welcome relief!
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On December 04 2011 02:14 inamorato wrote:
HuK wrote:
@Slasher well ur comments were pretty ignorant as usual. if players were smart tho most would transition to casters; its a better job
An ignorant statement to combat Slashers supposed ignorant statement. I see we've come round full circle.
The point is players get paid to play, not to cast. For Starcraft 2 to succeed outside of Korea it needs to establish a foundation. One where players play, casters cast, journalist journal, cameramen camera.
I believe that top tier players have the analytical skills to cast, and some even the personality to back it. However, as long as they are paid to play professionally, or even compete in tournaments including prize money, they shouldn't be casting.
Huk, and any other of the agreeing players who think they should be able to cast should look towards Korea. There is a chain of command. One that is much more developed, and has had the time to do so. Plenty of Brood War professional's retired, and when they did they were left with an option. Walk away from esports, become a coach, cast, etc, etc etc etc. Pro league has been casted by retired professionals, the same way baseball is casted by retired players.
It seems Huk lost his humility after leaving liquid, because I remember an incident where Huk handled himself immaturely and Nazgul quarter backed the pr. But after that Huk was as humble as Jesus himself.
It seems Huk is hungry for either an argument or a spotlight making left field statements like this.
The bottom line is a hierarchy, a system of some sort needs to be established. People can't just do whatever they want.
You tried pretty hard there to pin this on EG.
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The field is still open; as of now, (I believe) there are more people who want to be paid players rather than paid casters--if the pool of individuals trying to make it as casters grew as larger as the pool of semi-pro players, I doubt they'd be making any more money. I think as the years go on, it will eventually balance out. As it is, this is the beginning of a new market, new area, and no one is sure where the money will be.
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HuK have a point, but here is the sad truth :
You can't be a pro-player if you don't understand the game thoroughly and you are not skilled.
You can't be a caster if you don't have charisma, if you don't understand the game thoroughly and you are not skilled to a certain extand.
In the end, casting is not HARDER as a job. You don't need to practice like a pro-player, you have a garanted salary, no need to care about win and price pool, etc...
BUT! Most of viewers (those that are not players, but just viewers. That are following the scene just for fun.) are brought to the scene by casters, not by players. A caster cast more game than a player will play casted game in a tournament. The scene need way less casters than it needs players... but the scene need only the TOP casters. Those that are known, that will bring people.
And it's easier to have the spotlight for a caster, than it is for a player. It's sad, but that's it and it will always be it. There is no point in arguing about that.
Yes, being a player is probably harder... Yes, casters will be paid a lot more. There is nothing that we can do about it. We can't just cut their pay. If they are paid that much, it's because events need them that much.
Yes, some casters are not as good as Tasteless, Artosis and Day9... the same way than not every players are as good as Nestea and MVP.
And, if any players is angry at this and feel like it's unfair... that they should be casting instead... then : Try it. I'm sure that you will be surprised how actually hard and how cruel the community is toward most of them, and how you can't just go in front of a scene, cross fingers, and become a good caster.
I'm sure that most players that would leave the pro-gaming aspect of their career just to make more money as a caster, would fail miserably. There is not that much need for casters right now, and they are just too good to be replaced that easily by any pro-gamer.
HuK can't be more wrong, saying that if player would be smart, they would be casting. Most of them CAN'T cast, they just don't have the charisma and speech skills for that. HuK don't even have it himself. Doctor saving life should not be paid less than big actors, but sadly, they always will, simply because people need and will pay the big price to be entertained... and it's not anyone that can deliver that. Caster are not there to "analyse" or whatever. They are there to entertain, nothing else. No one that care enough and know enough of the game need a caster to tell them what is going on anyway. They know by just looking at the game.
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Pro gamers complaining about being paid less than casters?
The current casters do a lot more work and put themselves out there much more often. They do not just sit there and practice for hours on end in the hidden gaming scene. They are what we would call Celebrities in the eSports world.
If you want to be equal with them and praised do something about it.
Make a show, stream more and don't just listen to random korean music. Interact with your fans and promote yourself. If you want to be paid more be worth more.
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Seems like Slasher is just out for blood if you ask me.
Why bother people about what they choose to do with their time? Do whatever the fuck you want to, seems pretty simple to me.
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On December 17 2011 04:51 Shaok wrote:
Pro gamers complaining about being paid less than casters?
The current casters do a lot more work and put themselves out there much more often. They do not just sit there and practice for hours on end in the hidden gaming scene. They are what we would call Celebrities in the eSports world.
If you want to be equal with them and praised do something about it.
Make a show, stream more and don't just listen to random korean music. Interact with your fans and promote yourself. If you want to be paid more be worth more.
But this is exactly the core problem.
Players should dedicate themselves to training and strengthening their game, at least in my opinion.
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First Naniwa and now Huk.
They should have some sort of school for progamers that aids the transition of adolescence to adulthood. They shouldn't be let off their leashes until they graduate.
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Players themselves do not sell viewership, casters do. Of course they're going to be paid more.
Any time that you have a hobby/sport/interest where the barrier to entry (ie: understanding what is happening at the professional level) is high, the gateway (ie: caster) is going to be a lot more recognized than the players themselves - the caster is what allows the player to interface with what's happening on screen. Being a good caster is more scarce than being a good player, and that translates directly to caster salaries.
Add to that that casters have a greater chance to plug themselves, have personality, and sell their person and not just their trade, and they become that much more secure in the scene.
When I watch hockey, I don't need the commentators to explain to me what's happening for me to enjoy the game. I also don't see the casters, interact with the casters, or listen to the same one for 8 hours a day 3 days straight.
Kudos to casters!
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Solution: Watch my casts with Bearmode. + Show Spoiler +jk, though you should watch!
What people need to remember is that the highest skill tier of players for StarCraft do not speak much english, so it isn't likely that they will cast.
The BW scene outside of Korea was not nearly large enough to give us a huge pool of potential retired pro>casters. The best there was to choose from, for the most part, are the top casters of the day (day9 or artosis for example)
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LoL @ Slasher. I have to disagree with tasteless being an analytical caster. He pretty much only repeats what his co-caster says and is more of a play by play. Tasteless doesn't really provide in-depth insight on a players gameplay/decision making like those other analytical casters listed, i.e Artosis, Day9 etc.
I'd also like to mention that these games being casted are about the players, not the casters. If it weren't for such good talent, there wouldn't be shit to cast worth watching. Players are being completely undervalued imo. No one wants to watch a bunch of scrubs being cast by artosis. or Day9, or whoever. Its just not very entertaining. Players need to make way more than casters.
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I think Players are always going to have a better idea of what is going on than Casters, but that doesn't mean that casters can't do the job.
I think the best example is Dj Wheat. He is an entertaining caster who doesn't CLAIM to know it all. He does the play by play, analyzes the strategy as best as he can, and asks Day9/whoever he's casting with what he thinks instead of doing bold claims. I think that's very important. I don't mind play by play casters who don't know exactly the current metagame, they know the game enough to see what's going on and understand situations short term, and for the long term they ask the pro. That's FINE. However, I ABSOLUTELY HATE when casters make bold claims and obviously have no idea wtf they are talking about. Sorry to point out people, but Moletrap, Kaldor, Kelly are examples that immediately come to mind.
Basically, if you are a caster or a pro, you need to know your place.
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On December 17 2011 04:51 Shaok wrote:
Pro gamers complaining about being paid less than casters?
The current casters do a lot more work and put themselves out there much more often. They do not just sit there and practice for hours on end in the hidden gaming scene. They are what we would call Celebrities in the eSports world.
If you want to be equal with them and praised do something about it.
Make a show, stream more and don't just listen to random korean music. Interact with your fans and promote yourself. If you want to be paid more be worth more.
Perhaps pro-gamers don't all complain out loud, but did you actually just compare the job of a caster to the lifestyle of a pro-gamer? Or did I misunderstand you? The pro-gamer's job is far harder than the caster's, and nearly all of both groups have already defended that discussion (including recent interviews with people who have done both jobs, such as Orb).
On December 04 2011 02:37 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote:
I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it. Yup, it's funny because its true. If anyone's seen Home Story Cup or when the players stepped it up for Dream Hack, they would know that a lot of the players aren't biased at all when they cast. For me it was a welcome relief!
I agree with you too. Even players who occasionally balance whine (like IdrA) go straight into analytical mode without discussing balance at all during the cast. I love hearing IdrA commentate, as his knowledge is top notch, and I hardly ever hear the stereotypical imba-talk of his player-self.
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As Apollo said, the players have the knowledge, but few have the art of speech down as well as Artosis, Tasteless, Apollo, Day9 etc.
I guess what Slasher means is that commentating should not be a problem for players practicewise, like it was with iNcontroL and Season 1 of NASL for example. That players switch over to commentating full time is not a problem if they are good at what they do.
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On December 17 2011 10:10 Steel wrote:
I think Players are always going to have a better idea of what is going on than Casters, but that doesn't mean that casters can't do the job.
I think the best example is Dj Wheat. He is an entertaining caster who doesn't CLAIM to know it all. He does the play by play, analyzes the strategy as best as he can, and asks Day9/whoever he's casting with what he thinks instead of doing bold claims. I think that's very important. I don't mind play by play casters who don't know exactly the current metagame, they know the game enough to see what's going on and understand situations short term, and for the long term they ask the pro. That's FINE. However, I ABSOLUTELY HATE when casters make bold claims and obviously have no idea wtf they are talking about. Sorry to point out people, but Moletrap, Kaldor, Kelly are examples that immediately come to mind.
Basically, if you are a caster or a pro, you need to know your place.
Yeah i gotta agree that Dj Wheat is a good combination of both. As far as being a caster/pro and knowing your place.....Players are what make this industry. Casters may have help build it, but its about the players. Players need to be compensated well.
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On December 17 2011 10:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 04:51 Shaok wrote:
Pro gamers complaining about being paid less than casters?
The current casters do a lot more work and put themselves out there much more often. They do not just sit there and practice for hours on end in the hidden gaming scene. They are what we would call Celebrities in the eSports world.
If you want to be equal with them and praised do something about it.
Make a show, stream more and don't just listen to random korean music. Interact with your fans and promote yourself. If you want to be paid more be worth more. Perhaps pro-gamers don't all complain out loud, but did you actually just compare the job of a caster to the lifestyle of a pro-gamer? Or did I misunderstand you? The pro-gamer's job is far harder than the caster's, and nearly all of both groups have already defended that discussion (including recent interviews with people who have done both jobs, such as Orb). Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 02:37 StarStruck wrote:On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote:
I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it. Yup, it's funny because its true. If anyone's seen Home Story Cup or when the players stepped it up for Dream Hack, they would know that a lot of the players aren't biased at all when they cast. For me it was a welcome relief! I agree with you too. Even players who occasionally balance whine (like IdrA) go straight into analytical mode without discussing balance at all during the cast. I love hearing IdrA commentate, as his knowledge is top notch, and I hardly ever hear the stereotypical imba-talk of his player-self.
Damn Skippy. Greg is pretty good at it. 
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United States129 Posts
On December 17 2011 09:59 ReachTheSky wrote:
LoL @ Slasher. I have to disagree with tasteless being an analytical caster. He pretty much only repeats what his co-caster says and is more of a play by play. Tasteless doesn't really provide in-depth insight on a players gameplay/decision making like those other analytical casters listed, i.e Artosis, Day9 etc.
I'd also like to mention that these games being casted are about the players, not the casters. If it weren't for such good talent, there wouldn't be shit to cast worth watching. Players are being completely undervalued imo. No one wants to watch a bunch of scrubs being cast by artosis. or Day9, or whoever. Its just not very entertaining. Players need to make way more than casters.
Look for instances where Tasteless solo-casts. He's quite analytical. When he casts with Artosis, he plays a different role, the Ed Sullivan role.
Also, there's plenty of evidence that thousands of people will watch Day9 casts scrubs or no-names - AHGL, monobattles, Funday Monday, etc. There's also plenty of high-level casted games that very few people watch because they don't know or like the caster.
A really top player, either through skill or personality, will make more than the top casters through winnings (Korean tourney winners) or salary (Idra, Huk, Naniwa, etc.) or some combination thereof. The rest of the players? Honestly, from an economic standpoint, they're all interchangeable, and there's a substantial supply of them. Recognizable casters? There's what, a dozen of them, and any live event needs 4-6 of them? They're not any better at their job, nor is it more difficult than being a player, there are just fewer of them.
And the vast majority of viewers can't distinguish between a close game with crap players and a close game with great players - there's still plenty of entertainment value, on which a good caster can capitalize.
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EPT
