EPTThe Analytical Caster - A Twitter Story - Page 16
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Sponge12349
United Kingdom49 Posts
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ES_JohnClark
United States1121 Posts
On December 01 2011 15:12 YMCApylons wrote: Keep telling yourself that...SC2 is a legitimate spectator sport because of two things alone. KeSPA creating the modern BW pro-scene, and Blizzard making a competitive successor to BW. The SC2 scene now is where BW was in like 2002, and light-years ahead of CS/Quake/Unreal/Halo at any time in the past 10 years. BW is the only surviving game from the first WCG, to be replaced this year by SC2. Every sign points to SC2 not being just like every other esport game, but being like BW - in other words, far-and-above the rest. You might be able to get away with statements like that elsewhere, but not here. A lot of the old hands from the foreign BW scene are too kind to say these things themselves, because they have to get along with all the new carpetbaggers. But just remember, before Day9 was a SC2 casting superstar, he was the guy who wrote this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=80595 He's earned his place in the Starcraft community, as have have a few others. We all know who they are. The rest...well, frankly I don't give a damn about them. I don't care about e-sports, I care about starcraft. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but don't be surprised when you find that the Starcraft viewer doesn't care about Team X or Y (ninja edit: TL excepted, of course), they care about the players, or when your viewer numbers take a nose-dive because you've hired your shiny know-nothing "professional e-sports casters" rather than Starcraft casters who command respect in the Starcraft community. Pro-SC2 comes from Korean pro-BW. SC2 will continue to evolve, but for now, its a different community, different rules. Did you actually read what I wrote? I said straight up that SC2 is more of an esport today (and a fact.... because of a lot of things.. mostly being social media) then previous games (Quake, CS, etc..). The game itself is not the only reason it is where it is today. It is not a 'special' game that somehow is more of an esport then Quake.. it is simply a great game in a much better time and the community is doing so much to help it's greatness. Yes.. the game is great.. but I would put money on it that if it were not for Blizzard, streaming, social media, community activity and the saturation of competition available.. it would not be where it is today. | ||
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budar
175 Posts
On December 02 2011 01:15 Pertinacious wrote: By "literally" you mean "figuratively," right? ^.^ TB has already posted in the thread to say he takes a loss on most/all casting gigs he goes to. Even if we simply focus on the better-off players and casters, I'm not sure what you're getting at with your post. Are you asserting that it isn't fair for them to make a lot of money, because their fans don't make a lot of money? Well, I really mean "a ton of money" in the figurative sense ^^. Anyway, I'm getting at the fact that it's pointless to discuss salaries based on what is "fair" and what is not because that won't change those salaries. The post you quoted was just another example and like an "add-on" to the wall-of-text post I made a few posts back. The distribution of money is not fair not only between casters and players but also within the player base and pretty much everywhere - that's the jist of it. | ||
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
On December 02 2011 02:20 csn_JohnClark wrote: Did you actually read what I wrote? I said straight up that SC2 is more of an esport today (and a fact.... because of a lot of things.. mostly being social media) then previous games (Quake, CS, etc..). The game itself is not the only reason it is where it is today. It is not a 'special' game that somehow is more of an esport then Quake.. it is simply a great game in a much better time and the community is doing so much to help it's greatness. Yes.. the game is great.. but I would put money on it that if it were not for Blizzard, streaming, social media, community activity and the saturation of competition available.. it would not be where it is today. Why are you even bringing up Quake and other games in this thread? Of course Sc2 without Blizzard, streaming, social media, community activity and the saturation of competition available wouldn't be where it is today. You've basically said this thing without any human interaction is exactly the same as Quake or CS or w/e other game. | ||
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YMCApylons
Taiwan359 Posts
On December 02 2011 02:20 csn_JohnClark wrote: Did you actually read what I wrote? I said straight up that SC2 is more of an esport today (and a fact.... because of a lot of things.. mostly being social media) then previous games (Quake, CS, etc..). The game itself is not the only reason it is where it is today. It is not a 'special' game that somehow is more of an esport then Quake.. it is simply a great game in a much better time and the community is doing so much to help it's greatness. Yes.. the game is great.. but I would put money on it that if it were not for Blizzard, streaming, social media, community activity and the saturation of competition available.. it would not be where it is today. Did you read what you wrote? You said that SC2 isn't special. I say that it is. You say SC2 is "just like" other esports games, 10 years ago. I say that SC2 has nothing to do with other esports games, it has everything to do with BW. Where SC2 is today has very little to do with your precious social media. If that mattered, than the other "e-sports!" games would benefit as well. As I said, the pro-SC2 scene is far larger than any other game for two reasons alone. BW in Korea, and Blizzard's constant support for competitive multiplayer. If your reply doesn't acknowledge the role of KeSPA, BW, and Korea, than you truly have no clue about why SC2 is what it is today. This is where SC2 comes from. I guarantee that Day9, Tasteless, and Artosis know exactly who these people are. Gretorp, Idra, TLO, Sen, Puma, Nestea, MVP, MMA ... they all know. What about slasher? Hmm..? But keep telling yourself SC2 is nothing special, and just like other esports 10 years ago. Keep twittering and facebooking. I'm sure that's the key. | ||
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Karnage77
17 Posts
Casters get a chance to show their personality. Therefore people grow attached to them. Players don't often get that luxury. Great casters are rare and usually interesting people. Good speech is an important skill in all facets of life. SC2 players are a dime a dozen. However, the great ones get plenty of recognition. It's easy to tell that Huk wouldn't last an hour casting on an MLG stage. Just look at how he types on twitter. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
On December 02 2011 03:39 YMCApylons wrote: Did you read what you wrote? You said that SC2 isn't special. I say that it is. You say SC2 is "just like" other esports games, 10 years ago. I say that SC2 has nothing to do with other esports games, it has everything to do with BW. Where SC2 is today has very little to do with your precious social media. If that mattered, than the other "e-sports!" games would benefit as well. As I said, the pro-SC2 scene is far larger than any other game for two reasons alone. BW in Korea, and Blizzard's constant support for competitive multiplayer. If your reply doesn't acknowledge the role of KeSPA, BW, and Korea, than you truly have no clue about why SC2 is what it is today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvJB8vfTWQE This is where SC2 comes from. I guarantee that Day9, Tasteless, and Artosis know exactly who these people are. Gretorp, Idra, TLO, Sen, Puma, Nestea, MVP, MMA ... they all know. What about slasher? Hmm..? But keep telling yourself SC2 is nothing special, and just like other esports 10 years ago. Keep twittering and facebooking. I'm sure that's the key. That video...... Boxer, Reach, Oov.......... nerd chills | ||
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ES_JohnClark
United States1121 Posts
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
Someone like Idra might have a "high level of strategic understanding" but it's not that much higher than Day9s, if at all, and Day9 is infinitely more likeable. I'd argue Day9, Artosis, Tasteless and yes, even TotalBiscuit, have done more for the Starcraft community than HuK and half the pro community combined. Why? They've made it accessible. Players don't do that. They're too busy being players. You can't run a daily web show like the Day9 Daily or like TB's Shoutcasting and be a pro player. There isn't enough time in the day. | ||
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Condor Hero
United States2931 Posts
On December 02 2011 03:56 csn_JohnClark wrote: wow.. you did not understand anything i said. SC2 is not 'special'..The community is special. You completely missed what I was saying. SC2 is great for esports and again.. It is way ahead of where other games of the past were.. but for you to assume that it's only because of 2 things.. is just asinine. I would venture to say that Day9 has more to do with the 'continued' success of SC2 then even Blizzard. You need to acknowledge that Starcraft has something your other games do not. Why else does Sc2 have a special community? Pure luck? Coincidence? Would Day9 do 200 or 300, however many, dailies on a shitty game? | ||
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YMCApylons
Taiwan359 Posts
On December 02 2011 03:56 csn_JohnClark wrote: wow.. you did not understand anything i said. SC2 is not 'special'..The community is special. You completely missed what I was saying. SC2 is great for esports and again.. It is way ahead of where other games of the past were.. but for you to assume that it's only because of 2 things.. is just asinine. I would venture to say that Day9 has more to do with the 'continued' success of SC2 then even Blizzard. I'm trying to decide if that noise I hear is you moving the goal posts, or you sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalala". I think you need to be reminded of what exactly it is you said. On December 01 2011 14:02 csn_JohnClark wrote: The very conversation of this thread.. is exactly why SC2 is not special. It is just like the esport games that came before it more then 10 years ago  In fact, I would venture to say, that because of social media and such, SC2 is actually more of an esport in the sense of business opportunity then any of the previous games. Ask DJWheat.. he will tell ya. He was lucky enough (along side me and a very small number of others) that were paid years ago to be in esports... but I bet he will tell you his 'esports career' is a bit more rich with opportunity and actual $$$ now then it was just 5 years ago Everything I wrote was a direct refutation of this assertion. As I wrote, and you refused to read: On December 02 2011 03:39 YMCApylons wrote: You said that SC2 isn't special. I say that it is. You say SC2 is "just like" other esports games, 10 years ago. I say that SC2 has nothing to do with other esports games, it has everything to do with BW. Where SC2 is today has very little to do with your precious social media. If that mattered, than the other "e-sports!" games would benefit as well. As I said, the pro-SC2 scene is far larger than any other game for two reasons alone. BW in Korea, and Blizzard's constant support for competitive multiplayer. If your reply doesn't acknowledge the role of KeSPA, BW, and Korea, than you truly have no clue about why SC2 is what it is today. Oh, and "I would venture to say that Day9 has more to do with the 'continued' success of SC2 then even Blizzard"? Had that covered too. On December 01 2011 15:12 YMCApylons wrote: But just remember, before Day9 was a SC2 casting superstar, he was the guy who wrote this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=80595 Because I know you won't acknowledge this, let me spell it out for any readers of this thread. That link is to an article that Day9 wrote, describing, in detail, a new style of Terran Mech opening by Fantasy, the Korean BW progamer, in 2008, before SC2 was any more than a few fan-trailers. And yes, the community is special. But not because of some social media "e-sports!" bullshit. But because of people like Day9, who (guess what?) were created and cultivated by Korean pro-BW, and the foreign BW flag-bearer, TL. Blizzard support and Korean pro-BW. Yes, really, it is only those two things. Everything else is window-dressing. Some are useful, some are nice to have, some are frankly annoying, but all are unnecessary. | ||
Antoine
United States7481 Posts
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
It is not all about analysis or having an amazing game sense or any one of the hundreds of cliches people pour out. HSC was a great event, but it also had times when it was painfully boring and irritating, when it was awkward (the constant ribbing of Nightend was frankly annoying as fuck), and many of those players were frankly boring. It was also in someone's house, had a constant rotation of pros who could retreat to a poker table and drink beer playing one game at a time, and there weren't 6,000 people sat in pews on the side of an arena to entertain. They're paid more because they have a harder job. If you want paying more, that's for your sponsors to deal with. There's money in esports. It's those people who are getting paid 20k to do these events who are responsible for there being money at all, I'm afraid. Just basic economics. Money goes where the star power is. In some sports, its with the players. With e-sports, its with the casters right now. | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
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Gezaral
United States13 Posts
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Snijjer
United States989 Posts
On December 02 2011 05:29 Antoine wrote: I just listened to f slasher from yesterday and in the segment with the ESFI writers he said one of his primary concerns was bias. in all the history of top players casting tournaments I have never heard a player be as biased in their casting as mrbitter is towards idra, or maybe even khaldor towards germans in general. I acually think players are less likely to be biased because they're going to be consciously thinking about it. I've never heard a caster as biased as Artosis is toward zerg n Nestea. I think he out does Mr. Bitter quite easily. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On December 02 2011 07:30 Snijjer wrote: I've never heard a caster as biased as Artosis is toward zerg n Nestea. I think he out does Mr. Bitter quite easily. To be fair, a lot of it is just joking around: he knows that he is biased and kind of does it in an ironic way. You can tell that it's not the sort of bias that MrBitter has - it is conscious and often very deliberate. Whether you like it or not is a completely different matter: I personally am tired of the Nestea jokes and think Tastosis should move on to another running joke, but then jokes are subjective, and Artosis' bias is a bit special in how it works with Nestea. | ||
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Attilanator
United States154 Posts
On December 02 2011 07:30 Snijjer wrote: I've never heard a caster as biased as Artosis is toward zerg n Nestea. I think he out does Mr. Bitter quite easily. Well, Artosis loves Nestea, but who doesn't? I know a lot of people don't like how Artosis hypes players but I honestly think its kinda funny and pretty harmless, I don't think it makes him really come across as unprofessional. He generally gives credit where credit is due. Bitter does love Zergs. he could work on being less biased. But its not that weird to love idra. he's good. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
It's laughable some are comparing unionized team sports to esports. They, as a collective, hold whole leagues hostage unless they agree to terms. I'm not sure esports players have that leverage nor are they organized ATM so it's irrelevant. A better compaison is most boxers except the huge ones PBF, ODL, etc, make nothing. There are title holders right now that never made more than $1000 a fight because all they can get is HBO and showtime late at night to see them fight. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On December 02 2011 05:32 Evangelist wrote: Oh, and the reason casters get paid a huge amount compared to players is that casters are what actually make the event run. They don't sit in the background practicing. They fill dead time, they run analysis on every match up, they take player feedback, run admin duties, observe, and talk for upwards of eight to nine hours at a time, sometimes with only the most minimal of breaks. When they aren't doing that they're interacting with the hundreds to thousands of people that are there, and entertaining those people. It is not all about analysis or having an amazing game sense or any one of the hundreds of cliches people pour out. HSC was a great event, but it also had times when it was painfully boring and irritating, when it was awkward (the constant ribbing of Nightend was frankly annoying as fuck), and many of those players were frankly boring. It was also in someone's house, had a constant rotation of pros who could retreat to a poker table and drink beer playing one game at a time, and there weren't 6,000 people sat in pews on the side of an arena to entertain. They're paid more because they have a harder job. If you want paying more, that's for your sponsors to deal with. There's money in esports. It's those people who are getting paid 20k to do these events who are responsible for there being money at all, I'm afraid. Just basic economics. Money goes where the star power is. In some sports, its with the players. With e-sports, its with the casters right now. Difficultly of job has zero to do with what u r paid. Often times those who work the hardest are paid the least (see ditch diggers). It's all about what you can extract in economic rents. Look it up. But basiclly almost anyone that can fog a mirror can dig a ditch and almost no one can cast like Day9. This isn't about what you think something is worth. It's about what the economic structure of the position is. | ||
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