EPTThe effect of larvae-mineral distance on Zerg. - Page 6
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45986 Posts
Props for a solid OP with data and experimentation  | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
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BleaK_
Norway593 Posts
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LtCalley
United States244 Posts
the only way they should fix this issue with larva taking longer to get to minerals is if they also fix terran add-ons and allow an add-on to be built on either the left OR right side of the structure building it. | ||
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GettinMyFill
Australia37 Posts
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canikizu
4860 Posts
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Duban
United States548 Posts
On November 27 2011 15:46 canikizu wrote: Look at the bright side, your zerglings can intercept 2 rax bunker faster, your overlord can fly faster, your new-spawned drones can be transferred faster to 2nd, 3rd base,.v..v.v.v Someone already said exactly this. You're 2.5 seconds behind just by moving your initial drones into position. That advantage is instantly canceled and the disadvantage only grows from there. . | ||
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deafhobbit
United States828 Posts
On November 26 2011 16:44 TheAmazombie wrote: But it was the same in Brood War. SCVs came out of certain points and larvae sat in certain areas and it did not really affect it. I think it is fuss over basically nothing. The more of this type of "balancing" that occurs, the less dynamic the game will be and the more similar races will feel. It is just the nature of the race. Actually, that's not true, at least as far as zerg is concerned. You could force your larva to move to the left of your hatch. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Larva_Trick | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
edit: This would probably be a worthy search for the OP, IMO. Go through some pro ZvZ's who open mirror builds and see how much of an impact larvae position ultimately had. On November 26 2011 04:36 Klondikebar wrote: I would tend to agree that interfering with timings for something as trivial as larva positioning is kinda silly. But I would hold off on actually calling for tweaks until Nestea says "I lost that game because my larva were too far from the minerals." It's really easy to shrug off miniscule timings when it ultimately boils down to the difference in seconds on ultra precise timings, that end up winning or losing games. Splitting/worker management is where it all starts. This is probably most apparent to me in PvP (even though it doesn't have larvae) if your core is delayed enough you can just straight up die to a 4 gate. It only takes a couple of seconds and suddenly his units are warping in before your warpgate is even done. On November 27 2011 13:48 upperbound wrote: Can blizzard just normalize the amount of time it takes a spawned drone to hit a mineral patch when it's rallied to one? Like, change the movement speed so a rallied drone always hits the patch in 2.5 game seconds or something similar. That seems like the easiest fix with least additional burden on the player. Or they could just make larvae always gravitate towards minerals. On November 27 2011 15:46 canikizu wrote: Look at the bright side, your zerglings can intercept 2 rax bunker faster, your overlord can fly faster, your new-spawned drones can be transferred faster to 2nd, 3rd base,.v..v.v.v The hatch is also surrounded by creep though. Larvae affect how fast units get out of your base but not as much as drones. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:36 Klondikebar wrote: I would tend to agree that interfering with timings for something as trivial as larva positioning is kinda silly. But I would hold off on actually calling for tweaks until Nestea says "I lost that game because my larva were too far from the minerals." He'd never say that though, because the change is so minute that many other things could be blamed, no player being perfect and all, but I would argue that the snowball effect small changes has on macro, especially in the early game, is probably one of those hidden effects most players, including pros, don't think about even if it does cause a loss (which would probably be rare). This seems like something relatively easy to fix so I don't see why you wouldn't do it, especially since there is a documented difference. | ||
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Apaquin
United States27 Posts
In short, go talk in the thread about terran add-ons if you want to talk about terran add-ons for the 5 millionth time. | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
Also, I have a question about the calculations. How does larva production affect the theory here. Since both players start with 50 minerals they will begin their first drone at the same time. Will a player who has minerals above their hatchery be able to use their larva fast enough to prevent a period of time with 3 idle larva? If so, then it seems like every drone created after the point where both players are just waiting for their next larva to spawn will be created at the same time (not affected by that initial 2.5 gs difference). Then it would come down to the timing of the first queen spawning, which would be affected by the mineral difference. Anyways, does this make the predicted "lost time" for the disadvantaged player lower than expected? | ||
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
I really don't think there should be built in imbalances due to spawn positions. It's one of the main reasons I don't like shakurus and metalopolis. The differences in air space to fly behind the natural bases on those maps, can give you an advantage or disadvantage depending on where you spawn. | ||
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
Part B Standard Deviation! Below are my calculations based on your numbers, broken down in a uniform measurement of seconds. Again these are your numbers! Top Deviation Calculation: X1 = 386 X2 = 389 X3 = 392 Mean = 389 (heh, easy one) Deviation = Root ( ((Mean – X1)^2 + (Mean – X2)^2 + (Mean – X3)^2)/ Number in Sample) = Root( ( (389-386)^2 + (389-389)^2 + (389-392)^2 ) / 3 ) = 6 Bottom Deviation Deviation = 6.2 So your claim is that there is a 6 second difference between mining times at the top and bottom. But the standard deviation for your top and bottom tests are at least as big. This means that if you ran only the top 66% of your data would be 389 seconds, give or take 6 seconds. And 33% of the time it would be MORE than 6 seconds difference. Or phrased this way, running only the top experiment, your data would be 380-392 seconds most of the time; with a large chunk of it outside of even those time ranges. And this is just what the data that you provided says will happen if you alone try experimenting only the top part. The idea behind your experiment is awesome, but you need either a much larger sample size, and likely more practice at it to keep your deviation to a minimum. Because right now I can claim with over 91% confidence (look up confidence intervals if you're curious) that based on your data the mining time between the top and the bottom are EXACTLY the same time. Which we know by observation isn't true. A plea to everyone reading this thread; if you have GM or above mechanics, please help the OP out, try the top/bottom mining experiment. Do it 10 times to warm up. Do it 20 times to record the time top. Then do the same thing for the bottom. Give the OP your 20 Top and 20 bottoms (and please be honest) and then he can come back with meaningful numbers. He's got a great idea and even a good start, it's just the numbers he has don't prove anything. (Seriously if like... Sheth did this, you could have pretty fantastic data with maybe even an 80% CI.) | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:57 ChineseWife wrote: now lets compare the effects of larva inject on creating workers to that of the other races... Yeah...no. If your opponent is decent, he will be able to match you on wokers and even pull ahead almost throughout the entire game with most openings. We can create many workers at a time, but we cannot defend ourselves while doing it. | ||
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selaas
Norway40 Posts
That would probably solve it, if that is possible with the map editor. Or am I way off here? The other and obvious solution is changing the dynamics of SC2 (which won't happen), by making larvae spawn close to minerals and add-ons placeable where one wishes, which was mentioned before. | ||
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FreeTossCZComentary
Czech Republic143 Posts
On November 26 2011 05:29 TERRANLOL wrote: White has the higher winrate because white moves first. Spawn color is how we identify who has the advantage, but it is not the advantage itself You really think that first move is OP? Having first move can be even problem actually! Imagine 2 guys runing into minefield... one who runs in sooner is in worse position than one who runs in faster... | ||
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