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On November 26 2011 04:42 MoreFaSho wrote:
This is why I always 6-pool when I get top spawn on shakuras, drones start on right side and lings pop on right side. Makes rush 0.5s more effective.
Can't tell if trolling or serious... ¬.¬
In all honesty, I think this is a really interesting find. It's something I think Blizzard should definitely fix, although right now it shouldn't be their utmost priority, as I think SC2 has some bigger issues than this that are more pressing right now (maps in general, fine-tweaking unit balance, LAN). However, there's really no excuse NOT to fix this... It's an unnecessary disadvantage for zerg.
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Some races have it harder in certain positions. Terran can't choose which side to build their add-ons on, it is always the same no matter where their ramp is located. It is just a certain tweak of a race and should not be something to be concerned with that much at all. While there may be a certain difference, it all depends on map and positioning and is not important.
It is like trying to argue that because certain positions are harder to wall-off, then we have an imbalanced situation because toss might have to build an extra pylon if they spawn on top than if they spawn on bottom. It is the nature of the game.
Why not make all races the same? Every game should be TvT on an exact 2 player mirror map. Oh wait, that won't work because the ramps will be different and the add-ons barracks don't build on the same side...damn. The game is completely broken and zergs will never win anything.
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But it's not really difference for the purpose of having a fresh and exciting game, it's (in a TvT or ZvZ) one side being objectively worse than the other, which is of course imbalanced. Not a huge deal, no, but I feel the game should be as balanced as it possibly can. I hope this is fixed for HotS.
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On November 26 2011 16:34 Wafflelisk wrote:
But it's not really difference for the purpose of having a fresh and exciting game, it's (in a TvT or ZvZ) one side being objectively worse than the other, which is of course imbalanced. Not a huge deal, no, but I feel the game should be as balanced as it possibly can. I hope this is fixed for HotS.
But it was the same in Brood War. SCVs came out of certain points and larvae sat in certain areas and it did not really affect it. I think it is fuss over basically nothing. The more of this type of "balancing" that occurs, the less dynamic the game will be and the more similar races will feel. It is just the nature of the race.
Also...how do you suggest that they fix this? Zerg can't spawn on top positions? Larvae and drones spawn behind the hatches? That would just create more situations that are stupid and people will work out ways to complain about that as well.
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This is really interesting. These small things can really add up. Like, if you split your drones at the start well, stack them on close patches and your drones spawn close to mineral patches at start imagine how much faster your build can be in a mirror matchup where every second counts, especially ZvZ (faster pool-->extractor-->ling speed=could be an advantageous fight for you).
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Thanks for working out the raw data.
It would be nice if something were done to get larva spawning on the correct side of the hatchery at all times, but I don't think 6 in-game seconds is game-breaking. Nice to see it's only a relatively small difference.
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On November 26 2011 05:03 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 04:57 ChineseWife wrote:
now lets compare the effects of larva inject on creating workers to that of the other races... Nice QQ buddy. Get out of gold first. @OP - Very interesting stuff. Little things like this go a long way in games at the top level... hope to see more threads like this! User was warned for this post
never been in gold, so thx. im just saying that it doesn't appear to have an effect on balance, since zerg is pretty good as is.
edit: grats on diamond lmao
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i agree this should be fixed. i dont like zerg having more power depending on their start position
to fix this, all larva should spawn away from the minerals no matter what. that way zergs will no longer get to be 8% ahead. wow 8% holy crap who woulda guessed a zerg will have 8% more economy simply based on his spawn location.
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On November 26 2011 04:40 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 04:37 Ghoststrikes wrote:
That is interesting, but I might add that those map differences do not only affect zerg. Terrans have their add-on placement that changes if they want to properly wall off. I'm pretty sure it does not affect protoss walloffs, because basically you can make units spawn from either side of a building.
I agree that this difference might be significant in the case of a game agaiinst the AI where you hit everything dead on an no micro is required. In a real game, however, even a 2 second delay on a larvae inject will nullify any "advantage" you get by a good spawn position, so while I agree the exponential nature zerg economy grants the spawns a bigger and bigger advantage (or disadvantage), I just don't see it really being a cause for loss/win in even pro games today. 6 second difference could mean your zergling speed is 6 seconds later, which means your 4-6 zerglings get caught by their speedlings with similar openings. That's quite important.
Ah but snice their zerglings spawn closer to the minerals it will take them longer to run to the centre of the map!
On November 26 2011 17:43 ShineOnYou wrote:
irrelevant thread imo
Completely agree
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It's good that people are taking even the smallest things into account. However I feel that our attention is better directed at other, MORE SIGNIFICANT things in the game. If you put the same effort you put into this guide into a guide about taking something like taking quick 3rd/4th etc and how to defend strong pushes when taking risks macro wise etc, that would help the community more.
I'm not just bashing on you. There has been a couple of threads here in the last few weeks about little things like splitting first vs making worker and stuff like this. I feel that the benefits of experimenting things like this is not worth it for the time you spend on it.
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I remember most maps in BW tried to counter this problem by placing the minerals either to the left or to the right of the hatchery/cc/nexus. Maybe that would help out with the tiny difference for ZvZ, although personally, this doesn't really affect the game much. Instead of QQ'ing, just adapt to it?
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ive seen some people put their evo chambers in spots that will the larvae a little little closer to the minerals, i Always was annoyed that scvs and probes pop out on any Side of a building but drones don't = (
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This too?
I'm still highly pissed off about the way drones attack.
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I dont play zerg, but this was the first thing that came to my mind when I first played sc2 after release. This only came to mind because workers use to always spawn out of the bottom left corner of your nexus/cc/hatch. Then I look at how fast zerg can pump out workers in comparison to the other two races and realize that it is so petty :/
you never saw pros whine about their mineral line located on the right side and their opponents located on the left.
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This idea is completely negligible in the current state of the game... not saying that it's useless data, but it's irrelevant until the game develops further. It's the same as splitting your workers; you do not lose a game, and blame it on a bad split. I guess there's a point in that it is practically a free advantage given by the game, but I honestly can't see this advantage becoming a factor until maybe when the metagame calms down, and players have a stronger grasp on the game.
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On November 26 2011 05:50 Cascade wrote:Nice analysis.  Theres a shortcut though.  Once you have measured the 2.5 second delay, you can calculate the delay as function of number of built drones: The first 7 drones (including the first you built) will be 2.5 seconds late. Thus, i fyou stay on a 7 drone eco (ohai 7 pool!! ^^) everything you build will be 2.5 seconds late. If you build more drones, your 8:th drone will also be 2.5 seconds late to build, and with the extra walk distance, it will be 5 seconds late to the minerals, thus your 8 drone eco will be 2.5*7/8 + 5.0*1/8 = 2.8 seconds late. By generalising this argument, you can define a function d(N) which is the dealy in yuor total economy after N built drones. We know that d(7) = 2.5 and we know that drone number N+1 will be built with a delay d(N), and arrive at the minerals with a delay d(N)+2.5. Thus, your N+1 drone eco will be delayed by d(N+1) = N/(N+1)d(N) + 1/(N+1)(d(N)+2.5) = d(N) + 2.5/(N+1) from this, by recursion it is easy to see that d(N) = 2.5 + 2.5*sum_{n = 8 to N} 1/n So the result is: number of built drones --> delay of economy in gs 6 --> 2.5 10 --> 3.3 15 --> 4.3 20 --> 5.0 25 --> 5.6 30 --> 6.0 40 --> 6.7 50 --> 7.3 60 --> 7.7 80 --> 8.4 which is consistent with your result within your error margin, as I guess your build had around 30-40 drones. Feel free to add it to the OP if you want, and also feel free to rewrite it better formulated consistent with your format.
Don't know if this makes sense if you consider that drones are produced 3-4 at once after the queen is out.
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On November 26 2011 19:13 Endymion wrote:
the metagame will fix it
Please explain how playing differently could affect this. I'm not necessarily promoting any change but your statement makes no sense to me and is asserted without giving evidence or reason.
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EPT
