EPTIf i spawn on the left side of the map vs the right, i use the add-on of my rax to complete my wall in makings it significantly weaker to baneling busts. Its annoying but not game-breaking.
The effect of larvae-mineral distance on Zerg. - Page 8
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
xOff
United States247 Posts
If i spawn on the left side of the map vs the right, i use the add-on of my rax to complete my wall in makings it significantly weaker to baneling busts. Its annoying but not game-breaking. | ||
|
SkimGuy
Canada709 Posts
| ||
|
paintfive
785 Posts
| ||
|
Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On December 02 2011 12:34 paintfive wrote: this is minor compared to the difficulties protoss faces if they want to FFE. Some naturals on the same map require 3-4 buildings while some will take 2. that's more a problem of the map than a problem with the game. Yes the map can fix the games problems (resulting in either other positional imbalances on the map, or very bland/similar maps), but anything where changing the game instead of the map will fix the problem should be done. | ||
|
Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
| ||
|
johngalt90
United States357 Posts
| ||
|
Conquerer67
United States605 Posts
On December 02 2011 12:37 Xapti wrote: that's more a problem of the map than a problem with the game. Yes the map can fix the games problems (resulting in either other positional imbalances on the map, or very bland/similar maps), but anything where changing the game instead of the map will fix the problem should be done. It's actually more of a positional problem than a map or a game problem. On Shakuras, if I spawn at 5 or 7 o'clock positions, then I get more money than if I had spawned at the top. Protoss has to wall with the same number of buildings, regardless of position, on a single map. | ||
|
hersenen
Belize176 Posts
Good to see someone collecting real data to put the debate to rest. | ||
|
Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
With this in mind, it's actually surprising, that in a ZvZ mirror we don't see pronounced differences depending on the start positions. | ||
|
Duban
United States548 Posts
On December 02 2011 15:19 hersenen wrote: Oh so this is whats been holding me back from becoming Grandmaster league! Darn you Blizzard! Good to see someone collecting real data to put the debate to rest. Real data is the best data :-). Anyways, I won't deny that how large a difference it makes depends on the build and metagame. I don't want to make predictions because of that. I just needed to show a single situation where the difference is noteworthy to say that the larvae-mineral distance can affect the game in some situations, if not all. | ||
|
driftme
United States360 Posts
for instance, nerazim crypt... terrans have to travel uber far to wall off. mining time lost. i dont care about your larva positioning lol | ||
|
gr8stalin
United States20 Posts
| ||
|
Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On December 02 2011 12:43 Mr Showtime wrote: The reason you should do a worker split at the beginning of the game is that you can save ~2 seconds, and many people find that essential. In light of that, a 6 second difference is MASSIVE. Nice work. Not really. That 2 second benefit from worker splitting comes IMMEDIATELY, whereas the 6 second difference with this is gradually built up as drones are produced over the course of several minutes. | ||
|
Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
3 game seconds is nothing. | ||
|
BBQSAC
Australia89 Posts
 Typing "gl hf" at an inopportune moment will nullify your advantage lol | ||
|
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On November 26 2011 04:49 DoubleReed wrote: Maybe the larva could drift in the general direction of the worker rally. Other than that, it's minor enough to not need changing. Certainly not as significant as the add-on issues that terran has. Actually this is more important then addon issue because the addon does not impair worker production and mining speed and as a result does not give a economy lead that only gets bigger to one side because of spawn position. | ||
|
1Lamb1Rice
United States435 Posts
| ||
|
Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
| ||
|
Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
Is there a bit of washing considering? I mean in ZvZ ling battles (especially early on) reinforcements become a factor | ||
|
Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On November 26 2011 18:52 RevOrchid wrote: This idea is completely negligible in the current state of the game... not saying that it's useless data, but it's irrelevant until the game develops further. It's the same as splitting your workers; you do not lose a game, and blame it on a bad split. I guess there's a point in that it is practically a free advantage given by the game, but I honestly can't see this advantage becoming a factor until maybe when the metagame calms down, and players have a stronger grasp on the game. Well we still don't see everyone pairing their workers, you're right that it won't be a factor until later on, but I think it's good to point it out with all this data beforehand. Maybe Blizzard or map designers can fix it before it becomes a tangible problem. Having this data out could change the metagame rapidly, all zergs should be paying attention to their spawns and then trying to squeeze in a drone here and there more than they would in the inferior spawn. I would suspect some zergs already do this of course they wouldn't have wanted to share it with the world. On December 03 2011 06:04 Ignorant prodigy wrote: Can you quantify the effect this has on reinforcing your army during battle? Is there a bit of washing considering? I mean in ZvZ ling battles (especially early on) reinforcements become a factor That seems incredibly hard to calculate because more often than not one player or another already has an overwhelming advantage. For example if you are about to lose a game because you need 10 more seconds for your lings to finish the 1 second or so advantage of reinforcement would not really effect either side. Also keep in mind because of creep the time difference in units will always be smaller than it is with drones, on top of economy nearly always (outside of early all ins) being a better advantage to have than a 1 second shorter rally time. With this data we can assume that with two players of equal skill and equal decision making the player with the best spawn can have more drones at all times. On December 02 2011 16:36 Thrombozyt wrote: Actually this problem spirals out of control for Zerg, because their drone timing isn't limited by constant production of their main building. This means if the drones reach the mineral patches 2.5 seconds later, the second drone built will be delayed by 2.5 seconds (because the initial drones that have to mine the 50 minerals are 2.5 gs late) and then takes another 2.5gs more to reach the patch. With this in mind, it's actually surprising, that in a ZvZ mirror we don't see pronounced differences depending on the start positions. I think that is mostly because of ZvZ being "not figured out" where they are generally the shortest games next to PvP, to really take advantage of it best you would already want to be a player who likes to go for long game economic advantage in ZvZ and then this would help a play style you're already good at. | ||
| ||
