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On November 17 2011 22:38 rblstr wrote:
The match wasn't fixed, Coca wanted to play some games vs Terran and thats it. The more games the better in his eyes.
He didn't "throw" any matches by purposefully losing or playing bad.
Please educate yourself before posting, and try to get the full picture before judgement.
Please educate yourself before posting, quitting a game when he had the game 110% won is losing on purpose.
Byun had absolutely no chance at all to get back from that game either.
More on topic: I don't really care, but I think the punishment was too harsh, he earned his code S spot and that shit is pretty hard so they should have found another way of punishing him.
He should definitely be punished though, but there's other ways of doing it instead of destroying so many months of his life.
(Especially because he's like 16 years old, who in this thread seriously didn't make a mistake when they were 16, and didn't you get a lot of free passes on the crazy shit you pulled? I know I did.)
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On November 18 2011 23:48 Ighox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 22:38 rblstr wrote:
The match wasn't fixed, Coca wanted to play some games vs Terran and thats it. The more games the better in his eyes.
He didn't "throw" any matches by purposefully losing or playing bad.
Please educate yourself before posting, and try to get the full picture before judgement. Please educate yourself before posting, quitting a game when he had the game 110% won is losing on purpose. Byun had absolutely no chance at all to get back from that game either. More on topic: I don't really care, but I think the punishment was too harsh, he earned his code S spot and that shit is pretty hard so they should have found another way of punishing him. He should definitely be punished though, but there's other ways of doing it instead of destroying so many months of his life. (Especially because he's like 16 years old, who in this thread seriously didn't make a mistake when they were 16, and didn't you get a lot of free passes on the crazy shit you pulled? I know I did.)
16 or not Coca is a professional gamer. PROFESSIONAL e-sport athlete means that he has a code of conduct to follow as he representing a community as a whole. If we ever want e-sport or SC2 for that matter to become seriously recognized sanctions must be put into place. Also, imagine how bad team SlayerS looks for having one of it's players misbehave. It is true that Coca earned his Code S spot but on the flip side Byun needs to earn his Code A spot as well, not have it given to him by having his friends throw away a game/series. I can't even imagine what would happen if a football/soccer/hockey/tennis/whatever sport player gave a away easy scores to the opposing player or team...
Coca is young he will recover, and learn from his mistake at least I hope he does...
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On November 19 2011 00:47 NNTP wrote:
16 or not Coca is a professional gamer. PROFESSIONAL e-sport athlete means that he has a code of conduct to follow as he representing a community as a whole. If we ever want e-sport or SC2 for that matter to become seriously recognized sanctions must be put into place.
Um, you seem to have some weird misunderstanding of how things work in pro sports.
If you think this is a big deal then go talk to the Indianapolis Colts who sat all of their starters in a game they would have crushed against a division opponent which actually caused the Houston Texans to not go to the playoffs.
This game meant nothing and this poor kid is getting reamed.
Maybe people are on edge in Korea because of the actual scandal (Savior and co) but this is ridiculous. You have a right to leave or forfeit a game at any time as a player and this stupid moral police bullshit is way out of line.
If you want to talk about what what GSL should do to remain serious it's ENFORCE THE RULES AS WRITTEN, not come up with some enigmatic moralist argument. Yes I realize the team made this decision but they shouldn't have, they should have let the GSL decide if this kid had to give up his spot.
You know Idra quit a game he still could have won. Everyone here has seen the video. Guess we have to ban Idra from any future MLG events until he learns his lesson.
Oh wait, that would be really stupid.
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On November 19 2011 02:04 red_b wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 00:47 NNTP wrote:
16 or not Coca is a professional gamer. PROFESSIONAL e-sport athlete means that he has a code of conduct to follow as he representing a community as a whole. If we ever want e-sport or SC2 for that matter to become seriously recognized sanctions must be put into place. You know Idra quit a game he still could have won. Everyone here has seen the video. Guess we have to ban Idra from any future MLG events until he learns his lesson. Oh wait, that would be really stupid.
There's a difference between Idra being psyched out and thinking he was behind through speshul taktiks and GG'ing pre-emptively, and someone saying "I lost, leave the game" "okay, I surrender" okay time for third game" "GG!"
While it's more innocent than it looks, it's still unprofessional and breaks basic ethics of professional sports.
I don't know how people can think NOTHING wrong went on here. >_>
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On November 18 2011 00:28 red_b wrote:
Um this is immoral now?
K guess I have to give back like half of the magic cards I ever won. We used to do this shit all the time when it was you vs someone else you knew at your little qualifiers. Someone reports a loss and you split evenly so you reduce your week to week variance.
If there was no betting on the outcome by the two players or people known to the players than there is no problem. you have every right to concede a match at any time as a player. Up by 100 supply? red_b has left the game. Want to get your pizza and eat it against someone who has to play another match? red_b has left the game. Im beating my friend but don't really need too? red_b has left the game.
I would never be stupid enough to suggest that it's OK to bet on it and then do it but seriously there is no obligation for a player to finish the game.
I think everyone is missing the point. It's not about their intentions, their rights, obligations or w/e useless shit you wanna bring up. It's all about tournaments in sc2 and how legitimate they are to the viewers. Now some of the viewers will be suspicious every time they see two friends or teammates play against each other. "OMG DID COCA THROW THAT GAME AGAIN? SHIT I WILL NEVER KNOW I GUESS THERE'S NO POINT TO WATCHING GSL"
Coca and Byun deserved the punishment they got. I do feel bad for them cause they're so young, but if they didn't receive harsh punishments, Viewers wouldn't take sc2 seriously anymore.
Edit:
You want proof that people will become suspicious of professional sc2? just take a fucking look around this thread. People are already accusing nestea and boxer of throwing games. Even if it's a joke, people will start saying shit like this all the time now cause of Coca and Byun.
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On November 19 2011 03:01 .Sic. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 00:28 red_b wrote:
Um this is immoral now?
K guess I have to give back like half of the magic cards I ever won. We used to do this shit all the time when it was you vs someone else you knew at your little qualifiers. Someone reports a loss and you split evenly so you reduce your week to week variance.
If there was no betting on the outcome by the two players or people known to the players than there is no problem. you have every right to concede a match at any time as a player. Up by 100 supply? red_b has left the game. Want to get your pizza and eat it against someone who has to play another match? red_b has left the game. Im beating my friend but don't really need too? red_b has left the game.
I would never be stupid enough to suggest that it's OK to bet on it and then do it but seriously there is no obligation for a player to finish the game. I think everyone is missing the point. It's not about their intentions, their rights, obligations or w/e useless shit you wanna bring up. It's all about tournaments in sc2 and how legitimate they are to the viewers. Now some of the viewers will be suspicious every time they see two friends or teammates play against each other. "OMG DID COCA THROW THAT GAME AGAIN? SHIT I WILL NEVER KNOW I GUESS THERE'S NO POINT TO WATCHING GSL" Coca and Byun deserved the punishment they got. I do feel bad for them cause they're so young, but if they didn't receive harsh punishments, Viewers wouldn't take sc2 seriously anymore. Edit: You want proof that people will become suspicious of professional sc2? just take a fucking look around this thread. People are already accusing nestea and boxer of throwing games. Even if it's a joke, people will start saying shit like this all the time now cause of Coca and Byun.
I don't think its as bad as you make it out to be...this was really a special case where Coca wanted to help out his former teammate get into code A; meanwhile he wouldn't have lost anything of significance because he was already in code S. But with the games being played at the GSL or in foreign tournaments there aren't going to be those kinds of situations; if you give your opponent the win you (at least potentially due to losers brackets) lose out on the tournament prize money and personal prestige. And at the moment we don't have any evidence to suggest that they're making money on the side for purposely losing games (SC2 probably isn't big enough for that).
I think most people who talk about players throwing games are probably joking...almost all the times I've seen it on the forums its always been in the context of "this tournament doesn't matter, he has to conserve his strength" or "he was just playing around, this match doesn't matter", rather than because of deliberate match fixing for important tournaments. And even if they did say it seriously, it wouldn't be because of Coca and Byun...rather I think its the result of their disbelief that such a great player could play poorly, but its not really based on any solid evidence and I doubt most people think that way.
With the Korean weekly this could certainly be a recurring problem if they continue to use the same structure...but "no point watching GSL" seems a little overblown.
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This sucks on so many levels.
Edit: Nevermind.
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On November 18 2011 23:48 Ighox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 22:38 rblstr wrote:
The match wasn't fixed, Coca wanted to play some games vs Terran and thats it. The more games the better in his eyes.
He didn't "throw" any matches by purposefully losing or playing bad.
Please educate yourself before posting, and try to get the full picture before judgement. Please educate yourself before posting, quitting a game when he had the game 110% won is losing on purpose. Byun had absolutely no chance at all to get back from that game either.
Herp derp you know what i mean by "losing" on purpose. Not leaving the game, but actually playing to lose instead of to win.
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Why are people still discussing this?
Thew threw the games. They got punished for doing it. Was the punishment harsh? maybe, but thats what their managers decided, DEAL WITH IT.
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On November 19 2011 02:04 red_b wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 00:47 NNTP wrote:
16 or not Coca is a professional gamer. PROFESSIONAL e-sport athlete means that he has a code of conduct to follow as he representing a community as a whole. If we ever want e-sport or SC2 for that matter to become seriously recognized sanctions must be put into place. Um, you seem to have some weird misunderstanding of how things work in pro sports. If you think this is a big deal then go talk to the Indianapolis Colts who sat all of their starters in a game they would have crushed against a division opponent which actually caused the Houston Texans to not go to the playoffs. This game meant nothing and this poor kid is getting reamed.
This is a poor analogy. They didn't kneel the ball every down -- if the 2nd string could have won the game, the Colts would have taken the win. There is a good competitive reason to rest your starters in that case.
This situation is so clearly different that I think it's a waste to try to explain any further.
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On November 19 2011 02:04 red_b wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 00:47 NNTP wrote:
16 or not Coca is a professional gamer. PROFESSIONAL e-sport athlete means that he has a code of conduct to follow as he representing a community as a whole. If we ever want e-sport or SC2 for that matter to become seriously recognized sanctions must be put into place. Um, you seem to have some weird misunderstanding of how things work in pro sports. If you think this is a big deal then go talk to the Indianapolis Colts who sat all of their starters in a game they would have crushed against a division opponent which actually caused the Houston Texans to not go to the playoffs. This game meant nothing and this poor kid is getting reamed. Maybe people are on edge in Korea because of the actual scandal (Savior and co) but this is ridiculous. You have a right to leave or forfeit a game at any time as a player and this stupid moral police bullshit is way out of line. If you want to talk about what what GSL should do to remain serious it's ENFORCE THE RULES AS WRITTEN, not come up with some enigmatic moralist argument. Yes I realize the team made this decision but they shouldn't have, they should have let the GSL decide if this kid had to give up his spot. You know Idra quit a game he still could have won. Everyone here has seen the video. Guess we have to ban Idra from any future MLG events until he learns his lesson. Oh wait, that would be really stupid.
You cannot compare american football that is one of the most injury prone games to date to a game where physical injuries are very nil. Sitting your starters when you are guaranteed first seed and home field advantage for playoffs is benificial for the players. They did not need to win and in no way "threw" the game on purpose. Second and third string players probably played with all their heart since it would be very rare at all to play a full football game.
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On November 19 2011 03:01 .Sic. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 00:28 red_b wrote:
Um this is immoral now?
K guess I have to give back like half of the magic cards I ever won. We used to do this shit all the time when it was you vs someone else you knew at your little qualifiers. Someone reports a loss and you split evenly so you reduce your week to week variance.
If there was no betting on the outcome by the two players or people known to the players than there is no problem. you have every right to concede a match at any time as a player. Up by 100 supply? red_b has left the game. Want to get your pizza and eat it against someone who has to play another match? red_b has left the game. Im beating my friend but don't really need too? red_b has left the game.
I would never be stupid enough to suggest that it's OK to bet on it and then do it but seriously there is no obligation for a player to finish the game. I think everyone is missing the point. It's not about their intentions, their rights, obligations or w/e useless shit you wanna bring up. It's all about tournaments in sc2 and how legitimate they are to the viewers. Now some of the viewers will be suspicious every time they see two friends or teammates play against each other. "OMG DID COCA THROW THAT GAME AGAIN? SHIT I WILL NEVER KNOW I GUESS THERE'S NO POINT TO WATCHING GSL" Coca and Byun deserved the punishment they got. I do feel bad for them cause they're so young, but if they didn't receive harsh punishments, Viewers wouldn't take sc2 seriously anymore. Edit: You want proof that people will become suspicious of professional sc2? just take a fucking look around this thread. People are already accusing nestea and boxer of throwing games. Even if it's a joke, people will start saying shit like this all the time now cause of Coca and Byun.
You're completely disregarding the fact that this has happened multiple times in western esports and it hasn't been a big deal...at all. Why would it be any different with coca and byun? Furthermore I think myself and 90% of people in this thread would've never even known that this happened had these consequences not been so harsh.
This is a terrible post, it is just not rational at all. This HAS happened before. Mutiple times, with famous players and nothing even close to what you described happened as a consequence.
This isn't a big deal.
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On November 19 2011 03:01 .Sic. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 00:28 red_b wrote:
Um this is immoral now?
K guess I have to give back like half of the magic cards I ever won. We used to do this shit all the time when it was you vs someone else you knew at your little qualifiers. Someone reports a loss and you split evenly so you reduce your week to week variance.
If there was no betting on the outcome by the two players or people known to the players than there is no problem. you have every right to concede a match at any time as a player. Up by 100 supply? red_b has left the game. Want to get your pizza and eat it against someone who has to play another match? red_b has left the game. Im beating my friend but don't really need too? red_b has left the game.
I would never be stupid enough to suggest that it's OK to bet on it and then do it but seriously there is no obligation for a player to finish the game. I think everyone is missing the point. It's not about their intentions, their rights, obligations or w/e useless shit you wanna bring up. It's all about tournaments in sc2 and how legitimate they are to the viewers. Now some of the viewers will be suspicious every time they see two friends or teammates play against each other. "OMG DID COCA THROW THAT GAME AGAIN? SHIT I WILL NEVER KNOW I GUESS THERE'S NO POINT TO WATCHING GSL" Coca and Byun deserved the punishment they got. I do feel bad for them cause they're so young, but if they didn't receive harsh punishments, Viewers wouldn't take sc2 seriously anymore. Edit: You want proof that people will become suspicious of professional sc2? just take a fucking look around this thread. People are already accusing nestea and boxer of throwing games. Even if it's a joke, people will start saying shit like this all the time now cause of Coca and Byun.
If anything, I view GSL and especially the Slayer Clan as big of a joke now than it has ever been. They way handle this situation just makes me feel like they care more about their own reputation than doing the right thing. No one will argue that what the player did was stupid. I take stupidity over being coward and covering their own ass any day. For someone like Boxer, one would think he cares enough about this player to be just and doing whatever best to foster their growth, not throwing Coca under a bus. I am not sure so how many fan the Slayer Clan lost from Coca action, what I am sure of is that the Slayer Clan just lost one fan because of Boxer action.
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On November 20 2011 08:02 dbizzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 02:04 red_b wrote:On November 19 2011 00:47 NNTP wrote:
16 or not Coca is a professional gamer. PROFESSIONAL e-sport athlete means that he has a code of conduct to follow as he representing a community as a whole. If we ever want e-sport or SC2 for that matter to become seriously recognized sanctions must be put into place. Um, you seem to have some weird misunderstanding of how things work in pro sports. If you think this is a big deal then go talk to the Indianapolis Colts who sat all of their starters in a game they would have crushed against a division opponent which actually caused the Houston Texans to not go to the playoffs. This game meant nothing and this poor kid is getting reamed. Maybe people are on edge in Korea because of the actual scandal (Savior and co) but this is ridiculous. You have a right to leave or forfeit a game at any time as a player and this stupid moral police bullshit is way out of line. If you want to talk about what what GSL should do to remain serious it's ENFORCE THE RULES AS WRITTEN, not come up with some enigmatic moralist argument. Yes I realize the team made this decision but they shouldn't have, they should have let the GSL decide if this kid had to give up his spot. You know Idra quit a game he still could have won. Everyone here has seen the video. Guess we have to ban Idra from any future MLG events until he learns his lesson. Oh wait, that would be really stupid. You cannot compare american football that is one of the most injury prone games to date to a game where physical injuries are very nil. Sitting your starters when you are guaranteed first seed and home field advantage for playoffs is benificial for the players. They did not need to win and in no way "threw" the game on purpose. Second and third string players probably played with all their heart since it would be very rare at all to play a full football game.
Couldn't you use the same argument in this situation then? There is absolutely zero incentive for Coca to win that second game since he really don't get anything out of it. However, if he were to forfeit that game, he would get the opportunity to practice this ZvT and further strengthen his ability. There really no difference (at least for my opinion anyway) in football coach sitting their starters and risk loosing a game to get their second string more practice than Coca dropping game 2 so he can get more ZvT practice.
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On November 19 2011 04:20 windsupernova wrote:
Why are people still discussing this?
Thew threw the games. They got punished for doing it. Was the punishment harsh? maybe, but thats what their managers decided, DEAL WITH IT.
Second that!
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not cool coca so sad to waste his talent like this <
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The punishment is too harsh. The only thing this will change is that from now on, when a Progamer looses a game like this (a game that means nothing to him, but is really benificial for his friend/or training partning etc). they wil just decide on bo's in advance and paractice them on their smurf accounts.
This way the lesser player will seem to win with all ins agains too greedy builds. No one can detect this (it has probably accured several times already), and you will now watch games that are staged. :/
Bad for everyone. Just give them a possibility to forfeit, or WO when they want to. This way we will see games that are more real at least. Or make rules for passing down promotions (so you don't fuck your friend if you already have one).
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EPT
