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On November 17 2011 14:40 Heff87 wrote:
Whenever money is involved from a corporate sponsor, players should know better than to fool around and do this kind of nonsense. As much as I like Coca as a player, his mistake is now a matter of public precedent for any sponsor having doubts about the maturity of SC2 and its players as a vehicle for eSports.
Agreed with you there 100%.
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These guys got off easy I think. In other sports (since SC2 claims to be a sport), the players are hit with corruption charges and put in front grand juries, etc. Recently a few players were jailed for multiple years on corruption charges because of match-fixing in cricket, I'm not saying Coca and Byun should be, but what I'm saying is that they simply got off easy. Match-fixing is a serious issue and threatens the integrity of the game itself!
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True with what you said about threatening the integrity of the scene.
I don't know much of the BW match fixing scandal, but im just assuming korean crime organization was involved(?) Kind of like the yakuza connection killing the pride scene.
That kind of stigma could certainly hurt sc2 when it is just barely beginning to take off with kespa.
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On November 17 2011 18:23 NCnotorious wrote:
These guys got off easy I think. In other sports (since SC2 claims to be a sport), the players are hit with corruption charges and put in front grand juries, etc. Recently a few players were jailed for multiple years on corruption charges because of match-fixing in cricket, I'm not saying Coca and Byun should be, but what I'm saying is that they simply got off easy. Match-fixing is a serious issue and threatens the integrity of the game itself!
Do you even know what match fixing is? Match fixing is predetermining the result. Byun asked Coca to leave in the middle of the game, and Coca did so because he wanted to play 1 more match. Coca left on the spur of the moment; he did not predetermine the result of the match. Good job vilifying something that's mostly harmless.
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Actually, as a sponsor, I benefit more from the games that they sent - which were not staged, and fully competitive, and entertaining - than from no games, if Coca just dropped out of the tournament in search of other Terran practice partners.
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Oh my god between the misinformation in this and the other thread i think my head is going to explode. I'm actually starting to feel really bad for Coca because I've read what mob mentality is like in Korea and he's probably going to get a ton of shit because idiots are spreading misinformation about what has happened here. Probably best they're pulled out of the limelight until the pitchforks were put away.
Again, to clear up all the misconceptions (not that anyone reads the thread before posting more information anyway). Coca wanted to practice against Terran, all his Terran teammates were at a LAN, out of the house. So he played the ESV weekly vs Byun to get some practice. At the start of game 2 he clearly says in chat that he doesn't care about the match and just wants more games, so he forfeits the second match but plays it out anyway. He is at a considerable advantage to Coca when he says again that he wishes to forfeit the second game and go to a 3rd game and leaves. Himself and Byun play a 3rd game and Byun wins. The end.
The match wasn't fixed, Coca wanted to play some games vs Terran and thats it. The more games the better in his eyes.
He didn't "throw" any matches by purposefully losing or playing bad.
He didn't "throw" a match for Byun to advance, they are not even friends.
This was a weekly qualifier for a monthly tournament which may or may not award a GSL Code A spot (they're still in talks).
No money was involved.
Coca and Byun clearly didn't take the ESV tourney seriously and in that case their team should punish them for not representing the team in a good light. I think Coca's punishment is exceptionally harsh, although I can now see why SlayerS would want him out of the public eye, so the Korean community backlash can go away. He'll be back sooner or later.
Please educate yourself before posting, and try to get the full picture before judgement.
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On November 17 2011 21:31 Pangpootata wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 18:23 NCnotorious wrote:
These guys got off easy I think. In other sports (since SC2 claims to be a sport), the players are hit with corruption charges and put in front grand juries, etc. Recently a few players were jailed for multiple years on corruption charges because of match-fixing in cricket, I'm not saying Coca and Byun should be, but what I'm saying is that they simply got off easy. Match-fixing is a serious issue and threatens the integrity of the game itself! Do you even know what match fixing is? Match fixing is predetermining the result. Byun asked Coca to leave in the middle of the game, and Coca did so because he wanted to play 1 more match. Coca left on the spur of the moment; he did not predetermine the result of the match. Good job vilifying something that's mostly harmless.
I agree that the term "match fixing" is a strong one for Coca's behavior, because in my mind it implies a certain level of pre-meditation on the part of the players. However, I have to disagree that what Coca did is "mostly harmless."
This sort of behavior is entirely inconsistent with any sense of professional ethics on the part of the players - if you want to call yourself a "progamer," then you need to act like a professional. For a progamer, an important component of professional behavior is living up to the expectations of your fans, your tournament, your team, and your sponsors to play the best games of Starcraft (or any other game) you possibly can. Throwing a match, whether through per-meditation or a spur-of-the-moment desire to goof off, is nothing short of a betrayal of that expectation. There are plenty of venues for less serious play. In a professional tournament environment, that kind of behavior is entirely unacceptable.
It's good to see these players' teams taking an active role in enforcing professional standards in their players' conduct. Continuing to foster an atmosphere of professionalism is important to the future growth of the E-Sports scene.
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Well if the Koreans call it match fixing, I don't really have any objection against it. They know it more than us.
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On November 17 2011 22:38 rblstr wrote:
Oh my god between the misinformation in this and the other thread i think my head is going to explode. I'm actually starting to feel really bad for Coca because I've read what mob mentality is like in Korea and he's probably going to get a ton of shit because idiots are spreading misinformation about what has happened here. Probably best they're pulled out of the limelight until the pitchforks were put away.
Again, to clear up all the misconceptions (not that anyone reads the thread before posting more information anyway). Coca wanted to practice against Terran, all his Terran teammates were at a LAN, out of the house. So he played the ESV weekly vs Byun to get some practice. At the start of game 2 he clearly says in chat that he doesn't care about the match and just wants more games, so he forfeits the second match but plays it out anyway. He is at a considerable advantage to Coca when he says again that he wishes to forfeit the second game and go to a 3rd game and leaves. Himself and Byun play a 3rd game and Byun wins. The end.
The match wasn't fixed, Coca wanted to play some games vs Terran and thats it. The more games the better in his eyes.
He didn't "throw" any matches by purposefully losing or playing bad.
He didn't "throw" a match for Byun to advance, they are not even friends.
This was a weekly qualifier for a monthly tournament which may or may not award a GSL Code A spot (they're still in talks).
No money was involved.
Coca and Byun clearly didn't take the ESV tourney seriously and in that case their team should punish them for not representing the team in a good light. I think Coca's punishment is exceptionally harsh, although I can now see why SlayerS would want him out of the public eye, so the Korean community backlash can go away. He'll be back sooner or later.
Please educate yourself before posting, and try to get the full picture before judgement.
1) He could always get customs after the tournament itself. This excuse is retarded, because if tournament games were the only source of practice, then literally nobody would be practicing anything at all. Why can't he string up a couple of customs with Byun afterwards? MVP has always talked about thanking a ton of practice partners in his interviews and he doesn't play even half of them in that particular season of the GSL, or in any tournament setting within the same timeframe.
2) He threw a match by purposefully losing. He left at a stage when it was impossible for him to lose. If that wasn't losing on purpose, I don't know what is.
3) They are ex-teammates from Zenex. Get a clue.
4) There is no Code A spot on the line. Halfway through this thread, Diamond has stated that he has informed both coaches beforehand that this weekly will offer no such spot.
5) There is a prizepool at the end of the tournament, even if it's small.
And yes, finally, he can come back at a later time.
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New theory of mine: Gus paid CoCa and Byun to do this to take spotlight off himself. Genius.
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On November 17 2011 23:28 devPLEASE wrote:
New theory of mine: Gus paid CoCa and Byun to do this to take spotlight off himself. Genius.
What does Genius have to do with your theory? 
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Um this is immoral now?
K guess I have to give back like half of the magic cards I ever won. We used to do this shit all the time when it was you vs someone else you knew at your little qualifiers. Someone reports a loss and you split evenly so you reduce your week to week variance.
If there was no betting on the outcome by the two players or people known to the players than there is no problem. you have every right to concede a match at any time as a player. Up by 100 supply? red_b has left the game. Want to get your pizza and eat it against someone who has to play another match? red_b has left the game. Im beating my friend but don't really need too? red_b has left the game.
I would never be stupid enough to suggest that it's OK to bet on it and then do it but seriously there is no obligation for a player to finish the game.
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On November 18 2011 00:28 red_b wrote:
Um this is immoral now?
K guess I have to give back like half of the magic cards I ever won. We used to do this shit all the time when it was you vs someone else you knew at your little qualifiers. Someone reports a loss and you split evenly so you reduce your week to week variance.
If there was no betting on the outcome by the two players or people known to the players than there is no problem. you have every right to concede a match at any time as a player. Up by 100 supply? red_b has left the game. Want to get your pizza and eat it against someone who has to play another match? red_b has left the game. Im beating my friend but don't really need too? red_b has left the game.
I would never be stupid enough to suggest that it's OK to bet on it and then do it but seriously there is no obligation for a player to finish the game.
It's only immoral when or if it reaches the public eyes. Same goes for prize splitting.
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On November 17 2011 23:14 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 22:38 rblstr wrote:
Oh my god between the misinformation in this and the other thread i think my head is going to explode. I'm actually starting to feel really bad for Coca because I've read what mob mentality is like in Korea and he's probably going to get a ton of shit because idiots are spreading misinformation about what has happened here. Probably best they're pulled out of the limelight until the pitchforks were put away.
Again, to clear up all the misconceptions (not that anyone reads the thread before posting more information anyway). Coca wanted to practice against Terran, all his Terran teammates were at a LAN, out of the house. So he played the ESV weekly vs Byun to get some practice. At the start of game 2 he clearly says in chat that he doesn't care about the match and just wants more games, so he forfeits the second match but plays it out anyway. He is at a considerable advantage to Coca when he says again that he wishes to forfeit the second game and go to a 3rd game and leaves. Himself and Byun play a 3rd game and Byun wins. The end.
The match wasn't fixed, Coca wanted to play some games vs Terran and thats it. The more games the better in his eyes.
He didn't "throw" any matches by purposefully losing or playing bad.
He didn't "throw" a match for Byun to advance, they are not even friends.
This was a weekly qualifier for a monthly tournament which may or may not award a GSL Code A spot (they're still in talks).
No money was involved.
Coca and Byun clearly didn't take the ESV tourney seriously and in that case their team should punish them for not representing the team in a good light. I think Coca's punishment is exceptionally harsh, although I can now see why SlayerS would want him out of the public eye, so the Korean community backlash can go away. He'll be back sooner or later.
Please educate yourself before posting, and try to get the full picture before judgement. 1) He could always get customs after the tournament itself. This excuse is retarded, because if tournament games were the only source of practice, then literally nobody would be practicing anything at all. Why can't he string up a couple of customs with Byun afterwards? MVP has always talked about thanking a ton of practice partners in his interviews and he doesn't play even half of them in that particular season of the GSL, or in any tournament setting within the same timeframe. 2) He threw a match by purposefully losing. He left at a stage when it was impossible for him to lose. If that wasn't losing on purpose, I don't know what is. 3) They are ex-teammates from Zenex. Get a clue. 4) There is no Code A spot on the line. Halfway through this thread, Diamond has stated that he has informed both coaches beforehand that this weekly will offer no such spot. 5) There is a prizepool at the end of the tournament, even if it's small. And yes, finally, he can come back at a later time.
1.) I don't know why don't you ask him? I'm just saying what Coca said clearly at the very beginning of the second game, he said he wanted to play vs Byun to get Terran practice. Maybe he wanted a BO3 in a tournament setting and didn't mind forfeiting to go to a 3rd match, even if he did lose? Makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is that you seem to have a problem with someone leaving a match that they've won, for any reason.
2.) Again, read the chat log. He clearly says "I don't care about this match, i want to play another one for more practice". How is that throwing or fixing? I think its retarded that ESV didn't ref that as a win for Coca anyway, he had clearly won. It wasn't even close. There probably was no need to go to a 3rd game for the broadcast but they just went with what the replay said.
3.) Ex-teammates, i know this, still thats not why Coca "threw" game 2. He told us why he went to game 3, in the ingame chat.. for everyone to see. I don't understand why people are ignoring that.
4.) I know, why do people keep correcting me when i say there was no Code A spot on the line? Every time.
5.) By money i mean betting, or paying to throw matches. You know, REAL match fixing. Also Coca didn't leave game 2 to give Byun the prize money. That doesn't even make any sense.
If people just thought about this for a second it all makes a lot more sense than "Coca left game 2, MATCH FIX CONTROVERSY". Totally blown out of proportion. Esports drama bullshit.
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On November 18 2011 00:28 red_b wrote:
Um this is immoral now?
K guess I have to give back like half of the magic cards I ever won. We used to do this shit all the time when it was you vs someone else you knew at your little qualifiers. Someone reports a loss and you split evenly so you reduce your week to week variance.
If there was no betting on the outcome by the two players or people known to the players than there is no problem. you have every right to concede a match at any time as a player. Up by 100 supply? red_b has left the game. Want to get your pizza and eat it against someone who has to play another match? red_b has left the game. Im beating my friend but don't really need too? red_b has left the game.
I would never be stupid enough to suggest that it's OK to bet on it and then do it but seriously there is no obligation for a player to finish the game.
Unless that player is a self-described professional, a member of a team playing in a sponsored tournament. At that point, there is no moral obligation to finish playing the game, but there is an ethical obligation to do the best one possibly can. Adhering to those kinds of ethical standards is the core of what it means to be a professional. Coca clearly violated this ethical standard, and is being punished for it.
On November 18 2011 00:51 rblstr wrote:
1.) I don't know why don't you ask him? I'm just saying what Coca said clearly at the very beginning of the second game, he said he wanted to play vs Byun to get Terran practice. Maybe he wanted a BO3 in a tournament setting and didn't mind forfeiting to go to a 3rd match, even if he did lose? Makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is that you seem to have a problem with someone leaving a match that they've won, for any reason..
I can't speak for Oktyabr, but what disappoints me about Coca's behavior is not that it is somehow intrinsically wrong to leave a game when you are ahead, but rather that it is wrong to do anything other than your best if you are a self-described professional player in a sponsored tournament setting. As a professional, one has an ethical duty to one's fans, one's team, and one's tournament to do the best one possibly can. For a professional player to intentionally lose a game in order to take the tournament to the third round (for any reason) is a highly unprofessional act. It is this lack of professionalism (rather than some moral claim) that is most disappointing about this entire incident.
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So did Coca play the third game ? I don't really mind that he left the 2nd, but if he let byun win the 3rd too - that is really bad. I was under the impression that Coca also threw the 3rd game to byun, after hearing artosis talking about it on GsL the other day. Anyways if he tried his best and lost the 3rd game legit then I do believe the punishment was too harsh.
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On November 18 2011 00:51 rblstr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 23:14 Oktyabr wrote:On November 17 2011 22:38 rblstr wrote:
Oh my god between the misinformation in this and the other thread i think my head is going to explode. I'm actually starting to feel really bad for Coca because I've read what mob mentality is like in Korea and he's probably going to get a ton of shit because idiots are spreading misinformation about what has happened here. Probably best they're pulled out of the limelight until the pitchforks were put away.
Again, to clear up all the misconceptions (not that anyone reads the thread before posting more information anyway). Coca wanted to practice against Terran, all his Terran teammates were at a LAN, out of the house. So he played the ESV weekly vs Byun to get some practice. At the start of game 2 he clearly says in chat that he doesn't care about the match and just wants more games, so he forfeits the second match but plays it out anyway. He is at a considerable advantage to Coca when he says again that he wishes to forfeit the second game and go to a 3rd game and leaves. Himself and Byun play a 3rd game and Byun wins. The end.
The match wasn't fixed, Coca wanted to play some games vs Terran and thats it. The more games the better in his eyes.
He didn't "throw" any matches by purposefully losing or playing bad.
He didn't "throw" a match for Byun to advance, they are not even friends.
This was a weekly qualifier for a monthly tournament which may or may not award a GSL Code A spot (they're still in talks).
No money was involved.
Coca and Byun clearly didn't take the ESV tourney seriously and in that case their team should punish them for not representing the team in a good light. I think Coca's punishment is exceptionally harsh, although I can now see why SlayerS would want him out of the public eye, so the Korean community backlash can go away. He'll be back sooner or later.
Please educate yourself before posting, and try to get the full picture before judgement. 1) He could always get customs after the tournament itself. This excuse is retarded, because if tournament games were the only source of practice, then literally nobody would be practicing anything at all. Why can't he string up a couple of customs with Byun afterwards? MVP has always talked about thanking a ton of practice partners in his interviews and he doesn't play even half of them in that particular season of the GSL, or in any tournament setting within the same timeframe. 2) He threw a match by purposefully losing. He left at a stage when it was impossible for him to lose. If that wasn't losing on purpose, I don't know what is. 3) They are ex-teammates from Zenex. Get a clue. 4) There is no Code A spot on the line. Halfway through this thread, Diamond has stated that he has informed both coaches beforehand that this weekly will offer no such spot. 5) There is a prizepool at the end of the tournament, even if it's small. And yes, finally, he can come back at a later time. 1.) I don't know why don't you ask him? I'm just saying what Coca said clearly at the very beginning of the second game, he said he wanted to play vs Byun to get Terran practice. Maybe he wanted a BO3 in a tournament setting and didn't mind forfeiting to go to a 3rd match, even if he did lose? Makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is that you seem to have a problem with someone leaving a match that they've won, for any reason. 2.) Again, read the chat log. He clearly says "I don't care about this match, i want to play another one for more practice". How is that throwing or fixing? I think its retarded that ESV didn't ref that as a win for Coca anyway, he had clearly won. It wasn't even close. There probably was no need to go to a 3rd game for the broadcast but they just went with what the replay said. 3.) Ex-teammates, i know this, still thats not why Coca "threw" game 2. He told us why he went to game 3, in the ingame chat.. for everyone to see. I don't understand why people are ignoring that. 4.) I know, why do people keep correcting me when i say there was no Code A spot on the line? Every time. 5.) By money i mean betting, or paying to throw matches. You know, REAL match fixing. Also Coca didn't leave game 2 to give Byun the prize money. That doesn't even make any sense. If people just thought about this for a second it all makes a lot more sense than "Coca left game 2, MATCH FIX CONTROVERSY". Totally blown out of proportion. Esports drama bullshit.
1) Your speculation made zero sense to begin with - I was merely pointing out the obvious. And I don't have a problem with them leaving matches for any reason. Where did you draw this inference from?
2) It's throwing because both players clearly knew the outcome of the game at that point in time. If he didn't leave the game on purpose, how could they even go on to game 3? You're clutching at stupid technicalities here. ESV was broadcasting those games live, and they didn't pre-scan the replays, so they obviously had to show game three to figure out what the fuck was going on. They don't have Korean translations of the chat and that's why they didn't know why Coca left at all.
3) People aren't ignoring that. People are pointing out the fact that wasn't a valid excuse for throwing any game.
5) So there wasn't any illegal activity on the sidelines. What's the deal? He still threw a broadcasted game that actually had money at stake.
The reaction to Slayer's reaction is blown out of proportion. That's where all the drama is coming from.
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On November 18 2011 01:13 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 00:51 rblstr wrote:On November 17 2011 23:14 Oktyabr wrote:On November 17 2011 22:38 rblstr wrote:
Oh my god between the misinformation in this and the other thread i think my head is going to explode. I'm actually starting to feel really bad for Coca because I've read what mob mentality is like in Korea and he's probably going to get a ton of shit because idiots are spreading misinformation about what has happened here. Probably best they're pulled out of the limelight until the pitchforks were put away.
Again, to clear up all the misconceptions (not that anyone reads the thread before posting more information anyway). Coca wanted to practice against Terran, all his Terran teammates were at a LAN, out of the house. So he played the ESV weekly vs Byun to get some practice. At the start of game 2 he clearly says in chat that he doesn't care about the match and just wants more games, so he forfeits the second match but plays it out anyway. He is at a considerable advantage to Coca when he says again that he wishes to forfeit the second game and go to a 3rd game and leaves. Himself and Byun play a 3rd game and Byun wins. The end.
The match wasn't fixed, Coca wanted to play some games vs Terran and thats it. The more games the better in his eyes.
He didn't "throw" any matches by purposefully losing or playing bad.
He didn't "throw" a match for Byun to advance, they are not even friends.
This was a weekly qualifier for a monthly tournament which may or may not award a GSL Code A spot (they're still in talks).
No money was involved.
Coca and Byun clearly didn't take the ESV tourney seriously and in that case their team should punish them for not representing the team in a good light. I think Coca's punishment is exceptionally harsh, although I can now see why SlayerS would want him out of the public eye, so the Korean community backlash can go away. He'll be back sooner or later.
Please educate yourself before posting, and try to get the full picture before judgement. 1) He could always get customs after the tournament itself. This excuse is retarded, because if tournament games were the only source of practice, then literally nobody would be practicing anything at all. Why can't he string up a couple of customs with Byun afterwards? MVP has always talked about thanking a ton of practice partners in his interviews and he doesn't play even half of them in that particular season of the GSL, or in any tournament setting within the same timeframe. 2) He threw a match by purposefully losing. He left at a stage when it was impossible for him to lose. If that wasn't losing on purpose, I don't know what is. 3) They are ex-teammates from Zenex. Get a clue. 4) There is no Code A spot on the line. Halfway through this thread, Diamond has stated that he has informed both coaches beforehand that this weekly will offer no such spot. 5) There is a prizepool at the end of the tournament, even if it's small. And yes, finally, he can come back at a later time. 1.) I don't know why don't you ask him? I'm just saying what Coca said clearly at the very beginning of the second game, he said he wanted to play vs Byun to get Terran practice. Maybe he wanted a BO3 in a tournament setting and didn't mind forfeiting to go to a 3rd match, even if he did lose? Makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is that you seem to have a problem with someone leaving a match that they've won, for any reason. 2.) Again, read the chat log. He clearly says "I don't care about this match, i want to play another one for more practice". How is that throwing or fixing? I think its retarded that ESV didn't ref that as a win for Coca anyway, he had clearly won. It wasn't even close. There probably was no need to go to a 3rd game for the broadcast but they just went with what the replay said. 3.) Ex-teammates, i know this, still thats not why Coca "threw" game 2. He told us why he went to game 3, in the ingame chat.. for everyone to see. I don't understand why people are ignoring that. 4.) I know, why do people keep correcting me when i say there was no Code A spot on the line? Every time. 5.) By money i mean betting, or paying to throw matches. You know, REAL match fixing. Also Coca didn't leave game 2 to give Byun the prize money. That doesn't even make any sense. If people just thought about this for a second it all makes a lot more sense than "Coca left game 2, MATCH FIX CONTROVERSY". Totally blown out of proportion. Esports drama bullshit. 1) Your speculation made zero sense to begin with - I was merely pointing out the obvious. And I don't have a problem with them leaving matches for any reason. Where did you draw this inference from? 2) It's throwing because both players clearly knew the outcome of the game at that point in time. If he didn't leave the game on purpose, how could they even go on to game 3? You're clutching at stupid technicalities here. ESV was broadcasting those games live, and they didn't pre-scan the replays, so they obviously had to show game three to figure out what the fuck was going on. They don't have Korean translations of the chat and that's why they didn't know why Coca left at all. 3) People aren't ignoring that. People are pointing out the fact that wasn't a valid excuse for throwing any game. 5) So there wasn't any illegal activity on the sidelines. What's the deal? He still threw a broadcasted game that actually had money at stake. The reaction to Slayer's reaction is blown out of proportion. That's where all the drama is coming from.
1.) What speculation? I'm just saying what Coca said himself in the ingame chat. Byun was even surprised that Coca said he needed practice and asked him about the other Terrans in your team. Coca then replied that they were away at a lan and he couldn't practice with them. Thats why he wanted to go to game 3, and in my opinion the only thing he did wrong. This was against ESV's rules and hurt the SlayerS image etc etc etc and he should get in trouble for it.
However the Korean community instantly jumped on the "match-fix" angle of things and people started to speculate and spread mis-information (people still believe Coca hatched a deal with Byun for Byun to advance and win money and a Code A spot because they're friends and teammates, which is all totally false).
I just want people to look at what happened and think about this with a clear mind, its not that difficult to understand what happened and that the punishment is clearly a kneejerk reaction to korean criticism.
2.) Coca wanted the max amount of games against Byun maybe? And thought by stating that he wanted to forfeit at the beginning of the match that everything would be ok? And by submitting the replays ESV still had matches to cast (besides more forfeits?). He may have been wrong (way wrong), but he still doesn't deserve most of the punishment.
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On November 18 2011 01:25 rblstr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 01:13 Oktyabr wrote:On November 18 2011 00:51 rblstr wrote:On November 17 2011 23:14 Oktyabr wrote:On November 17 2011 22:38 rblstr wrote:
Oh my god between the misinformation in this and the other thread i think my head is going to explode. I'm actually starting to feel really bad for Coca because I've read what mob mentality is like in Korea and he's probably going to get a ton of shit because idiots are spreading misinformation about what has happened here. Probably best they're pulled out of the limelight until the pitchforks were put away.
Again, to clear up all the misconceptions (not that anyone reads the thread before posting more information anyway). Coca wanted to practice against Terran, all his Terran teammates were at a LAN, out of the house. So he played the ESV weekly vs Byun to get some practice. At the start of game 2 he clearly says in chat that he doesn't care about the match and just wants more games, so he forfeits the second match but plays it out anyway. He is at a considerable advantage to Coca when he says again that he wishes to forfeit the second game and go to a 3rd game and leaves. Himself and Byun play a 3rd game and Byun wins. The end.
The match wasn't fixed, Coca wanted to play some games vs Terran and thats it. The more games the better in his eyes.
He didn't "throw" any matches by purposefully losing or playing bad.
He didn't "throw" a match for Byun to advance, they are not even friends.
This was a weekly qualifier for a monthly tournament which may or may not award a GSL Code A spot (they're still in talks).
No money was involved.
Coca and Byun clearly didn't take the ESV tourney seriously and in that case their team should punish them for not representing the team in a good light. I think Coca's punishment is exceptionally harsh, although I can now see why SlayerS would want him out of the public eye, so the Korean community backlash can go away. He'll be back sooner or later.
Please educate yourself before posting, and try to get the full picture before judgement. 1) He could always get customs after the tournament itself. This excuse is retarded, because if tournament games were the only source of practice, then literally nobody would be practicing anything at all. Why can't he string up a couple of customs with Byun afterwards? MVP has always talked about thanking a ton of practice partners in his interviews and he doesn't play even half of them in that particular season of the GSL, or in any tournament setting within the same timeframe. 2) He threw a match by purposefully losing. He left at a stage when it was impossible for him to lose. If that wasn't losing on purpose, I don't know what is. 3) They are ex-teammates from Zenex. Get a clue. 4) There is no Code A spot on the line. Halfway through this thread, Diamond has stated that he has informed both coaches beforehand that this weekly will offer no such spot. 5) There is a prizepool at the end of the tournament, even if it's small. And yes, finally, he can come back at a later time. 1.) I don't know why don't you ask him? I'm just saying what Coca said clearly at the very beginning of the second game, he said he wanted to play vs Byun to get Terran practice. Maybe he wanted a BO3 in a tournament setting and didn't mind forfeiting to go to a 3rd match, even if he did lose? Makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is that you seem to have a problem with someone leaving a match that they've won, for any reason. 2.) Again, read the chat log. He clearly says "I don't care about this match, i want to play another one for more practice". How is that throwing or fixing? I think its retarded that ESV didn't ref that as a win for Coca anyway, he had clearly won. It wasn't even close. There probably was no need to go to a 3rd game for the broadcast but they just went with what the replay said. 3.) Ex-teammates, i know this, still thats not why Coca "threw" game 2. He told us why he went to game 3, in the ingame chat.. for everyone to see. I don't understand why people are ignoring that. 4.) I know, why do people keep correcting me when i say there was no Code A spot on the line? Every time. 5.) By money i mean betting, or paying to throw matches. You know, REAL match fixing. Also Coca didn't leave game 2 to give Byun the prize money. That doesn't even make any sense. If people just thought about this for a second it all makes a lot more sense than "Coca left game 2, MATCH FIX CONTROVERSY". Totally blown out of proportion. Esports drama bullshit. 1) Your speculation made zero sense to begin with - I was merely pointing out the obvious. And I don't have a problem with them leaving matches for any reason. Where did you draw this inference from? 2) It's throwing because both players clearly knew the outcome of the game at that point in time. If he didn't leave the game on purpose, how could they even go on to game 3? You're clutching at stupid technicalities here. ESV was broadcasting those games live, and they didn't pre-scan the replays, so they obviously had to show game three to figure out what the fuck was going on. They don't have Korean translations of the chat and that's why they didn't know why Coca left at all. 3) People aren't ignoring that. People are pointing out the fact that wasn't a valid excuse for throwing any game. 5) So there wasn't any illegal activity on the sidelines. What's the deal? He still threw a broadcasted game that actually had money at stake. The reaction to Slayer's reaction is blown out of proportion. That's where all the drama is coming from. 1.) What speculation? I'm just saying what Coca said himself in the ingame chat. Byun was even surprised that Coca said he needed practice and asked him about the other Terrans in your team. Coca then replied that they were away at a lan and he couldn't practice with them. Thats why he wanted to go to game 3, and in my opinion the only thing he did wrong. This was against ESV's rules and hurt the SlayerS image etc etc etc and he should get in trouble for it. However the Korean community instantly jumped on the "match-fix" angle of things and people started to speculate and spread mis-information (people still believe Coca hatched a deal with Byun for Byun to advance and win money and a Code A spot because they're friends and teammates, which is all totally false). I just want people to look at what happened and think about this with a clear mind, its not that difficult to understand what happened and that the punishment is clearly a kneejerk reaction to korean criticism. 2.) Coca wanted the max amount of games against Byun maybe? And thought by stating that he wanted to forfeit at the beginning of the match that everything would be ok? And by submitting the replays ESV still had matches to cast (besides more forfeits?). He may have been wrong (way wrong), but he still doesn't deserve most of the punishment.
The punishment is appropriate in this context here because this guy nailed it:
On November 18 2011 01:02 adun12345 wrote:
I can't speak for Oktyabr, but what disappoints me about Coca's behavior is not that it is somehow intrinsically wrong to leave a game when you are ahead, but rather that it is wrong to do anything other than your best if you are a self-described professional player in a sponsored tournament setting. As a professional, one has an ethical duty to one's fans, one's team, and one's tournament to do the best one possibly can. For a professional player to intentionally lose a game in order to take the tournament to the third round (for any reason) is a highly unprofessional act. It is this lack of professionalism (rather than some moral claim) that is most disappointing about this entire incident.
Coca happened to be on Boxer's team, and guess what does Boxer advocate? He doesn't know where to draw the line, because he never came close to it to begin with. Why are you even blaming Koreans for despising such shady behavior when their culture took the biggest hit from it? Of course I'd agree that the punishment wouldn't make any sense outside of Korea. It is the context here that matters.
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On November 18 2011 01:42 Oktyabr wrote:The punishment is appropriate in this context here because this guy nailed it: Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 01:02 adun12345 wrote:
I can't speak for Oktyabr, but what disappoints me about Coca's behavior is not that it is somehow intrinsically wrong to leave a game when you are ahead, but rather that it is wrong to do anything other than your best if you are a self-described professional player in a sponsored tournament setting. As a professional, one has an ethical duty to one's fans, one's team, and one's tournament to do the best one possibly can. For a professional player to intentionally lose a game in order to take the tournament to the third round (for any reason) is a highly unprofessional act. It is this lack of professionalism (rather than some moral claim) that is most disappointing about this entire incident. Coca happened to be on Boxer's team, and guess what does Boxer advocate? He doesn't know where to draw the line, because he never came close to it to begin with. Why are you even blaming Koreans for despising such shady behavior when their culture took the biggest hit from it? Of course I'd agree that the punishment wouldn't make any sense outside of Korea. It is the context here that matters.
I'm not disagreeing with the fact that what he did was wrong in context of representing his team in a tournament, I have always said that he, and lets not forget Byun, should have taken the ESV game more seriously. unfortunately they didn't and they SHOULD be punished, by their teams for that. But I just feel that people don't understand the full story and are crucifying Coca for something that he didn't do (match-fix).
I'd also argue the fact that this is shady. I don't think this is shady at all, just unprofessional. But since the first reports included only the last in game messages and included the term match-fix that people have blown what has happened out of proportion, and thus forcing SlayerS into a harsher punishment so they're not seen to be condoning unprofessional conduct in a tournament.
On the other hand i think it was better for ESV for Coca to play out the set rather than forfeiting the entire match and not playing at all. At least he played the games and played them well. They were entertaining. If anything I'd say thats a good thing. (Not condoning his behavior in the tournament, just saying that by playing the games it gave ESV content which you could argue is more professional than forfeiting from the beginning. Better for ESV, better for us viewers and fans).
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EPT
