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On November 10 2011 09:12 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:09 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:06 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:55 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:42 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 08:25 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 07:46 rpgalon wrote:
Plz, stop with the ghost VS HT shit, there is no need for it
6- EMP can't be dodged after launch, when you see the EMP, it already did its job
7- EMP is instant, Storm takes 4 seconds to deal 80 dmg, it almost never do 80 dmg usually the kiting marine marauder ball takes only 40 dmg ( zealots takes the other 40 dmg...)
we already have a winner...gg =D
6. Thats the mail problem for not pro terran players. Since if you protoss when you get hit by emp you take full damage not matter how good you are so the game is balanced around that. For terran Blizzard balance game for best players which are capable of dodging storm, at the same time casual ladder players cant do that. It's the same with marines micro againts banegling for example. Because of that imo ladder population of terran will shrink further(its already happening). 7. 40 dmg to marines is significantly more devastating then emp on zealots, 40 dmg to marauders is as devastating like emp on zealots. Since zealot/stalkers models are bigger than marine/marauder i assume that with the same radius stom can hit more units than emp. nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HPif you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge. 1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast! good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? And why is that when 30%hp marines die way faster and does less dps? If you take into account the fact that you can make two marines for the price of one zealot, two unstimmed marines have higher dps than one zealot. Also, if you stim them, they have much higher dps. Also, you can kite, which makes zealots have zero dps!  Yeah that sounds good but oh you forgot that they instantly!. Zealots with charge ALWAYS DO DMG you cant "kite away so they have zero dps". Umm, I'm fairly certain that chargelots don't always hit. You can still kite them indefinitely. There was a bug fix where occasionally, chargelots would run into units and not swing (deal melee damage), and that bug was fixed (so that now, every time zealots get *within melee range*, they'll deal damage), but you can still outrun zealots so that they never get within melee range, since you can outrange them. Could you picture zealots being invincible and using charge indefinitely until they dealt damage? I can't, but that's pretty much what you're proposing (at least, that they can't be killed off until they hit a target). Stimmed microed bio > chargelots No they always do dmg. Try it out in-game if you want to and you will see its true. No they don't. You can kite them with Conc shells. Patch 1.3.0 * Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once. 
Yes and they usually hit you alot more then one time.
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On November 10 2011 09:12 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:09 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:06 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:55 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:42 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 08:25 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 07:46 rpgalon wrote:
Plz, stop with the ghost VS HT shit, there is no need for it
6- EMP can't be dodged after launch, when you see the EMP, it already did its job
7- EMP is instant, Storm takes 4 seconds to deal 80 dmg, it almost never do 80 dmg usually the kiting marine marauder ball takes only 40 dmg ( zealots takes the other 40 dmg...)
we already have a winner...gg =D
6. Thats the mail problem for not pro terran players. Since if you protoss when you get hit by emp you take full damage not matter how good you are so the game is balanced around that. For terran Blizzard balance game for best players which are capable of dodging storm, at the same time casual ladder players cant do that. It's the same with marines micro againts banegling for example. Because of that imo ladder population of terran will shrink further(its already happening). 7. 40 dmg to marines is significantly more devastating then emp on zealots, 40 dmg to marauders is as devastating like emp on zealots. Since zealot/stalkers models are bigger than marine/marauder i assume that with the same radius stom can hit more units than emp. nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HPif you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge. 1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast! good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? And why is that when 30%hp marines die way faster and does less dps? If you take into account the fact that you can make two marines for the price of one zealot, two unstimmed marines have higher dps than one zealot. Also, if you stim them, they have much higher dps. Also, you can kite, which makes zealots have zero dps! Yeah that sounds good but oh you forgot that they instantly!. Zealots with charge ALWAYS DO DMG you cant "kite away so they have zero dps". Umm, I'm fairly certain that chargelots don't always hit. You can still kite them indefinitely. There was a bug fix where occasionally, chargelots would run into units and not swing (deal melee damage), and that bug was fixed (so that now, every time zealots get *within melee range*, they'll deal damage), but you can still outrun zealots so that they never get within melee range, since you can outrange them. Could you picture zealots being invincible and using charge indefinitely until they dealt damage? I can't, but that's pretty much what you're proposing (at least, that they can't be killed off until they hit a target). Stimmed microed bio > chargelots No they always do dmg. Try it out in-game if you want to and you will see its true. No they don't. You can kite them with Conc shells. Patch 1.3.0 * Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once.
Yes I know, but I thought that Conc Shells still slow the Chargelots, no? I apologize if I'm wrong.
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On November 10 2011 08:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:51 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:39 Scufo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:27 Scufo wrote:On November 10 2011 06:39 NineteenSC2 wrote:On November 10 2011 06:06 Talack wrote:
I'm glad that all the protoss all-ins like 6-gate and immortal bust are not being looked at but the late-game of terran is being nerfed ><
God I hate how they balance this game around players with insane micro but the leagues like low-mid masters get screwed when they can't do that but their macro mechanics are solid. Really really hard when both sides are able to make huge armies and the terran player is expected to play x1000 better just to compete with the a-moving with a FF or a storm tossed here and there.
Late game TvP is broken. I don't see how the blizzard developer team does not see it and does not make changes. I think emp was nerfed cause late game terran is op, not protoss. You're doing something wrong. Oh and toss has to: ff, gs, storm, feedback, blink, micro zealots, warp in units in the middle of a battle, spread hts & sentries terran has to: 1a + stim and scoot and shoot What's easier? Late game Terran OP...am I dreaming? Protoss armies ROLL Terran bio with no micro (except Stim) on either side. Chargelots and Colossus absolutely manhandle Marines and Marauders. There's a reason Terran tends to be the aggressor in the early and mid game...if you don't hurt a toss you're in for an uphill battle in the lategame... I think I found your problems. You're supposed to micro your units. And make ghosts and vikings instead of just tier one units against an entire Protoss deathball. You're welcome. My point was, Protoss armies do much better than Terran ones with less-than-superb micro. It's a real problem for Plat-Diamond level players. There's a reason why Terran is the least played race there. Oh, I thought it was because all the Terrans had already moved up into Code S. Just kidding, but I feel that the necessary micro for both races is about even, and when Protoss don't hit forcefields or storms, they lose the game just as often as when Terrans don't split their units or cast EMPs. I think it averages out pretty well. No, the micro is NOT even. Terran has to micro way more, I thought that was common knowledge? Think about it, how much micro do you have to do with a zealot? Or with colossus? Point is you can get away with not microing as protoss. Your units are way more beefy and don't die as quick. A-move zealot/archon is brutal to deal with if you don't have perfect micro. NineteenSC2 already mentioned multiple necessary micro-moves for Protoss ("ff, gs, storm, feedback, blink, micro zealots, warp in units in the middle of a battle, spread hts & sentries"), which wasn't even all of them (moving colossi back against vikings, warp prism mechanics, etc.), so for you to suggest that Protoss only uses zealots, colossi, and archons (and therefore we only a-move) is ridiculous. Do you realize that Protoss has far more spells to cast? What does that mean to you?A lot of Protoss micro comes from the spellcasting aspect. A lot of the Terran micro comes from the splitting of the units (and not much else- just ghosts). Believe me, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when I say that it probably evens out.
Problem is when you dont micro your army is still quite effective, when you don't dogde storms you are dead, simple as that. Its the same in in TvZ with baneglings, if you don't kill them and dont spread marines your army is dead. Its not about micro abillities of particular races is about severity of punishment for not microing.
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On November 10 2011 09:14 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:11 aksfjh wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 08:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:51 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:39 Scufo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:27 Scufo wrote:On November 10 2011 06:39 NineteenSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I think emp was nerfed cause late game terran is op, not protoss. You're doing something wrong.
Oh and toss has to:
ff, gs, storm, feedback, blink, micro zealots, warp in units in the middle of a battle, spread hts & sentries
terran has to:
1a + stim and scoot and shoot
What's easier? Late game Terran OP...am I dreaming? Protoss armies ROLL Terran bio with no micro (except Stim) on either side. Chargelots and Colossus absolutely manhandle Marines and Marauders. There's a reason Terran tends to be the aggressor in the early and mid game...if you don't hurt a toss you're in for an uphill battle in the lategame... I think I found your problems. You're supposed to micro your units. And make ghosts and vikings instead of just tier one units against an entire Protoss deathball. You're welcome. My point was, Protoss armies do much better than Terran ones with less-than-superb micro. It's a real problem for Plat-Diamond level players. There's a reason why Terran is the least played race there. Oh, I thought it was because all the Terrans had already moved up into Code S. Just kidding, but I feel that the necessary micro for both races is about even, and when Protoss don't hit forcefields or storms, they lose the game just as often as when Terrans don't split their units or cast EMPs. I think it averages out pretty well. No, the micro is NOT even. Terran has to micro way more, I thought that was common knowledge? Think about it, how much micro do you have to do with a zealot? Or with colossus? Point is you can get away with not microing as protoss. Your units are way more beefy and don't die as quick. A-move zealot/archon is brutal to deal with if you don't have perfect micro. NineteenSC2 already mentioned multiple necessary micro-moves for Protoss ("ff, gs, storm, feedback, blink, micro zealots, warp in units in the middle of a battle, spread hts & sentries"), which wasn't even all of them (moving colossi back against vikings, warp prism mechanics, etc.), so for you to suggest that Protoss only uses zealots, colossi, and archons (and therefore we only a-move) is ridiculous. Do you realize that Protoss has far more spells to cast? What does that mean to you?A lot of Protoss micro comes from the spellcasting aspect. A lot of the Terran micro comes from the splitting of the units (and not much else- just ghosts). Believe me, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when I say that it probably evens out. If you think casting ff's or storms is hard micro.... Idk what to say. Spellcasting is probably the easiest micro in the game. And I never see ANY protoss use blink at all vs. terran lmao, so you can just rule that one out completely. Go to darglein's micro trainer and choose the terran one "death ball" or whatever it's called and see for yourself how much harder it is. To be fair, blink isn't that great in a straight up fight. The most useful it can be for Protoss is to reposition to snipe vikings or to escape when poking. Other than that, blink is mostly a gimmick for bypassing front bunkers in an all-in scenario. Even in PvZ, the benefits it affords are in expanding an arc against low range roaches and escape a favorable engagement before it swings the other way. Its value in a straight up fight to the death is grossly exaggerated and does little to do more than amplify a bigger army slightly. You still see it everytime at high level. They use it to try to snipe medivacs, ghosts, vikings or some random units. And it's really useful to reposition against vikings. Looks like IlIlIlIl never watches high level games though.
yes because selecting stalkers and blink once to chase after things is hard micro... man you guys are silly.
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On November 10 2011 09:15 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:12 aksfjh wrote:On November 10 2011 09:09 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:06 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:55 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:42 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 08:25 keglu wrote:
[quote]
6. Thats the mail problem for not pro terran players. Since if you protoss when you get hit by emp you take full damage not matter how good you are so the game is balanced around that. For terran Blizzard balance game for best players which are capable of dodging storm, at the same time casual ladder players cant do that. It's the same with marines micro againts banegling for example. Because of that imo ladder population of terran will shrink further(its already happening).
7.40 dmg to marines is significantly more devastating then emp on zealots, 40 dmg to marauders is as devastating like emp on zealots. Since zealot/stalkers models are bigger than marine/marauder i assume that with the same radius stom can hit more units than emp. nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HPif you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge. 1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast! good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? And why is that when 30%hp marines die way faster and does less dps? If you take into account the fact that you can make two marines for the price of one zealot, two unstimmed marines have higher dps than one zealot. Also, if you stim them, they have much higher dps. Also, you can kite, which makes zealots have zero dps! Yeah that sounds good but oh you forgot that they instantly!. Zealots with charge ALWAYS DO DMG you cant "kite away so they have zero dps". Umm, I'm fairly certain that chargelots don't always hit. You can still kite them indefinitely. There was a bug fix where occasionally, chargelots would run into units and not swing (deal melee damage), and that bug was fixed (so that now, every time zealots get *within melee range*, they'll deal damage), but you can still outrun zealots so that they never get within melee range, since you can outrange them. Could you picture zealots being invincible and using charge indefinitely until they dealt damage? I can't, but that's pretty much what you're proposing (at least, that they can't be killed off until they hit a target). Stimmed microed bio > chargelots No they always do dmg. Try it out in-game if you want to and you will see its true. No they don't. You can kite them with Conc shells. Patch 1.3.0 * Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once. Yes I know, but I thought that Conc Shells still slow the Chargelots, no? I apologize if I'm wrong.
I'm not 100% sure but I think charge negates conc shells? can someone test?
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On November 10 2011 08:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
A lot of Protoss micro comes from the spellcasting aspect. A lot of the Terran micro comes from the splitting of the units (and not much else- just ghosts). Believe me, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when I say that it probably evens out.
You honestly believe that casting spells is harder than splitting and kiting and casting less spells?
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On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense
Sure it does.
A zealot is meant to take damage, any damage it gives is supplementary to the protoss cause. Hence the name, zealot.
Marines are meant to deal damage. Any change in hit points doesn't negate the damage it does, nor does it change the marine's role that much, as 30% or 100% hitpoints on marines is rather inconsequential to its role as a damage dealer.
Therefore, marines with 30% of HP are way better than zealots with 60% HP.
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On November 10 2011 09:17 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:15 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:12 aksfjh wrote:On November 10 2011 09:09 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:06 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:55 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:42 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
[quote]
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? And why is that when 30%hp marines die way faster and does less dps? If you take into account the fact that you can make two marines for the price of one zealot, two unstimmed marines have higher dps than one zealot. Also, if you stim them, they have much higher dps. Also, you can kite, which makes zealots have zero dps! Yeah that sounds good but oh you forgot that they instantly!. Zealots with charge ALWAYS DO DMG you cant "kite away so they have zero dps". Umm, I'm fairly certain that chargelots don't always hit. You can still kite them indefinitely. There was a bug fix where occasionally, chargelots would run into units and not swing (deal melee damage), and that bug was fixed (so that now, every time zealots get *within melee range*, they'll deal damage), but you can still outrun zealots so that they never get within melee range, since you can outrange them. Could you picture zealots being invincible and using charge indefinitely until they dealt damage? I can't, but that's pretty much what you're proposing (at least, that they can't be killed off until they hit a target). Stimmed microed bio > chargelots No they always do dmg. Try it out in-game if you want to and you will see its true. No they don't. You can kite them with Conc shells. Patch 1.3.0 * Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once. Yes I know, but I thought that Conc Shells still slow the Chargelots, no? I apologize if I'm wrong. I'm not 100% sure but I think charge negates conc shells? can someone test? The charge hits and causes one attack of damage then the zealot is affected by concussive shell and slows down. I don't know the specifics (if it's one attack or two, since the zealot hits twice) but that's roughly what it is.
Also, don't double post, edit if you need to add something.
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On November 10 2011 09:17 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:15 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:12 aksfjh wrote:On November 10 2011 09:09 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:06 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:55 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:42 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
[quote]
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? And why is that when 30%hp marines die way faster and does less dps? If you take into account the fact that you can make two marines for the price of one zealot, two unstimmed marines have higher dps than one zealot. Also, if you stim them, they have much higher dps. Also, you can kite, which makes zealots have zero dps! Yeah that sounds good but oh you forgot that they instantly!. Zealots with charge ALWAYS DO DMG you cant "kite away so they have zero dps". Umm, I'm fairly certain that chargelots don't always hit. You can still kite them indefinitely. There was a bug fix where occasionally, chargelots would run into units and not swing (deal melee damage), and that bug was fixed (so that now, every time zealots get *within melee range*, they'll deal damage), but you can still outrun zealots so that they never get within melee range, since you can outrange them. Could you picture zealots being invincible and using charge indefinitely until they dealt damage? I can't, but that's pretty much what you're proposing (at least, that they can't be killed off until they hit a target). Stimmed microed bio > chargelots No they always do dmg. Try it out in-game if you want to and you will see its true. No they don't. You can kite them with Conc shells. Patch 1.3.0 * Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once. Yes I know, but I thought that Conc Shells still slow the Chargelots, no? I apologize if I'm wrong. I'm not 100% sure but I think charge negates conc shells? can someone test?
I just tested this and charge zealot hit by conc shells are slightly (3.02) slower then marauders with stim(3.37)
So I quess you're right f you mass up 50marauders(never happen) vs his 50zealots and individually target each zealot while stutter stepping back(impossible for any human being) you will only take stim dmg. Wow I wonder why noone is doing that ;p
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 10 2011 09:16 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:14 pPingu wrote:On November 10 2011 09:11 aksfjh wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 08:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:51 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:39 Scufo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:27 Scufo wrote:
[quote]
Late game Terran OP...am I dreaming? Protoss armies ROLL Terran bio with no micro (except Stim) on either side. Chargelots and Colossus absolutely manhandle Marines and Marauders.
There's a reason Terran tends to be the aggressor in the early and mid game...if you don't hurt a toss you're in for an uphill battle in the lategame... I think I found your problems. You're supposed to micro your units. And make ghosts and vikings instead of just tier one units against an entire Protoss deathball. You're welcome. My point was, Protoss armies do much better than Terran ones with less-than-superb micro. It's a real problem for Plat-Diamond level players. There's a reason why Terran is the least played race there. Oh, I thought it was because all the Terrans had already moved up into Code S. Just kidding, but I feel that the necessary micro for both races is about even, and when Protoss don't hit forcefields or storms, they lose the game just as often as when Terrans don't split their units or cast EMPs. I think it averages out pretty well. No, the micro is NOT even. Terran has to micro way more, I thought that was common knowledge? Think about it, how much micro do you have to do with a zealot? Or with colossus? Point is you can get away with not microing as protoss. Your units are way more beefy and don't die as quick. A-move zealot/archon is brutal to deal with if you don't have perfect micro. NineteenSC2 already mentioned multiple necessary micro-moves for Protoss ("ff, gs, storm, feedback, blink, micro zealots, warp in units in the middle of a battle, spread hts & sentries"), which wasn't even all of them (moving colossi back against vikings, warp prism mechanics, etc.), so for you to suggest that Protoss only uses zealots, colossi, and archons (and therefore we only a-move) is ridiculous. Do you realize that Protoss has far more spells to cast? What does that mean to you?A lot of Protoss micro comes from the spellcasting aspect. A lot of the Terran micro comes from the splitting of the units (and not much else- just ghosts). Believe me, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when I say that it probably evens out. If you think casting ff's or storms is hard micro.... Idk what to say. Spellcasting is probably the easiest micro in the game. And I never see ANY protoss use blink at all vs. terran lmao, so you can just rule that one out completely. Go to darglein's micro trainer and choose the terran one "death ball" or whatever it's called and see for yourself how much harder it is. To be fair, blink isn't that great in a straight up fight. The most useful it can be for Protoss is to reposition to snipe vikings or to escape when poking. Other than that, blink is mostly a gimmick for bypassing front bunkers in an all-in scenario. Even in PvZ, the benefits it affords are in expanding an arc against low range roaches and escape a favorable engagement before it swings the other way. Its value in a straight up fight to the death is grossly exaggerated and does little to do more than amplify a bigger army slightly. You still see it everytime at high level. They use it to try to snipe medivacs, ghosts, vikings or some random units. And it's really useful to reposition against vikings. Looks like IlIlIlIl never watches high level games though. yes because selecting stalkers and blink once to chase after things is hard micro... man you guys are silly.
I think you really should look at a high level pvt game :/
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On November 10 2011 09:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 08:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:51 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:39 Scufo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:27 Scufo wrote:On November 10 2011 06:39 NineteenSC2 wrote:
[quote]
I think emp was nerfed cause late game terran is op, not protoss. You're doing something wrong.
Oh and toss has to:
ff, gs, storm, feedback, blink, micro zealots, warp in units in the middle of a battle, spread hts & sentries
terran has to:
1a + stim and scoot and shoot
What's easier? Late game Terran OP...am I dreaming? Protoss armies ROLL Terran bio with no micro (except Stim) on either side. Chargelots and Colossus absolutely manhandle Marines and Marauders. There's a reason Terran tends to be the aggressor in the early and mid game...if you don't hurt a toss you're in for an uphill battle in the lategame... I think I found your problems. You're supposed to micro your units. And make ghosts and vikings instead of just tier one units against an entire Protoss deathball. You're welcome. My point was, Protoss armies do much better than Terran ones with less-than-superb micro. It's a real problem for Plat-Diamond level players. There's a reason why Terran is the least played race there. Oh, I thought it was because all the Terrans had already moved up into Code S. Just kidding, but I feel that the necessary micro for both races is about even, and when Protoss don't hit forcefields or storms, they lose the game just as often as when Terrans don't split their units or cast EMPs. I think it averages out pretty well. No, the micro is NOT even. Terran has to micro way more, I thought that was common knowledge? Think about it, how much micro do you have to do with a zealot? Or with colossus? Point is you can get away with not microing as protoss. Your units are way more beefy and don't die as quick. A-move zealot/archon is brutal to deal with if you don't have perfect micro. NineteenSC2 already mentioned multiple necessary micro-moves for Protoss ("ff, gs, storm, feedback, blink, micro zealots, warp in units in the middle of a battle, spread hts & sentries"), which wasn't even all of them (moving colossi back against vikings, warp prism mechanics, etc.), so for you to suggest that Protoss only uses zealots, colossi, and archons (and therefore we only a-move) is ridiculous. Do you realize that Protoss has far more spells to cast? What does that mean to you?A lot of Protoss micro comes from the spellcasting aspect. A lot of the Terran micro comes from the splitting of the units (and not much else- just ghosts). Believe me, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when I say that it probably evens out. If you think casting ff's or storms is hard micro.... Idk what to say. Spellcasting is probably the easiest micro in the game. And I never see ANY protoss use blink at all vs. terran lmao, so you can just rule that one out completely. Go to darglein's micro trainer and choose the terran one "death ball" or whatever it's called and see for yourself how much harder it is. The reason you think that spellcasting is easy is because the one spell you cast against Protoss is done instantaneously. And you're probably cloaked at the time. I find it hilarious that you think anybody can cast forcefields like MC. Try it some time. And try throwing down perfect storms on moving targets too. Let me know how it goes. I've played protoss before and I know for a fact that you're exaggerating. You really think it's hard to put a storm behind a clump of units? Really? Or make a line of force fields? Look, I realized I hit a nerve when I called your race easier to micro, and you have to "defend your honor" now, but there's a reason terran is the least played race now. You would think with all the terrans doing well in code S, people would want to play the race because people are obviously having success with it. People that think terran is stim + amove are just the whiny protoss kids that don't realize that only at the tip top level is terran actually good.
Again, you saying that a spell is easy and you doing it easily are two different things. And again, actually throwing down all the forcefields and storms (wait, how do our spellcasters have any energy? is Terran doing something wrong?) as opposed to throwing down EMPs are much harder and take much more time.
You haven't given a single example defending any of your ridiculous claims, whereas plenty of people disagreeing with you have easily refuted your arguments. Maybe once you learn how to play the game, you'll stop whining about your race- which is just silly, considering it's been statistically better at the pro-level than the other two for nearly the entire existence of SC2. But yes, cling on to the fact that Terran isn't played as frequently in the gold league, despite the fact that we've already proven Protoss macro is just as hard (if not harder) and the micro is at least just as demanding. Terran is simply not mechanically overwhelming, compared to Protoss.
Maybe people aren't playing Terran because they don't find it as interesting. Maybe it doesn't suit their playstyle. It may have nothing to do with difficulty. Or maybe they just don't know about the 1-1-1, ghosts, and the fact that you can go all-in with your workers three time a game. Surely even a gold level player can do those things.
Anyways, I'm going to take a break from this thread. It was fun.
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On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost)
yeah you are right, I forgot to mention:
ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons
ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others
ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran is the most mineral heavy race
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On November 10 2011 09:20 hipsterHobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense Sure it does. A zealot is meant to take damage, any damage it gives is supplementary to the protoss cause. Hence the name, zealot. Marines are meant to deal damage. Any change in hit points doesn't negate the damage it does, nor does it change the marine's role that much, as 30% or 100% hitpoints on marines is rather inconsequential to its role as a damage dealer. Therefore, marines with 30% of HP are way better than zealots with 60% HP.
Are you suggesting that as Terran you would preffer to go into battle with 30% hp marines againts 60% hp zealots rather than with 100% life marines againts 100% hp zealots?
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On November 10 2011 09:17 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:15 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:12 aksfjh wrote:On November 10 2011 09:09 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:06 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:55 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:42 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
[quote]
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? And why is that when 30%hp marines die way faster and does less dps? If you take into account the fact that you can make two marines for the price of one zealot, two unstimmed marines have higher dps than one zealot. Also, if you stim them, they have much higher dps. Also, you can kite, which makes zealots have zero dps! Yeah that sounds good but oh you forgot that they instantly!. Zealots with charge ALWAYS DO DMG you cant "kite away so they have zero dps". Umm, I'm fairly certain that chargelots don't always hit. You can still kite them indefinitely. There was a bug fix where occasionally, chargelots would run into units and not swing (deal melee damage), and that bug was fixed (so that now, every time zealots get *within melee range*, they'll deal damage), but you can still outrun zealots so that they never get within melee range, since you can outrange them. Could you picture zealots being invincible and using charge indefinitely until they dealt damage? I can't, but that's pretty much what you're proposing (at least, that they can't be killed off until they hit a target). Stimmed microed bio > chargelots No they always do dmg. Try it out in-game if you want to and you will see its true. No they don't. You can kite them with Conc shells. Patch 1.3.0 * Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once. Yes I know, but I thought that Conc Shells still slow the Chargelots, no? I apologize if I'm wrong. I'm not 100% sure but I think charge negates conc shells? can someone test?
it does not, conc shell > charge, 100% sure
On November 10 2011 09:31 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:20 hipsterHobbit wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense Sure it does. A zealot is meant to take damage, any damage it gives is supplementary to the protoss cause. Hence the name, zealot. Marines are meant to deal damage. Any change in hit points doesn't negate the damage it does, nor does it change the marine's role that much, as 30% or 100% hitpoints on marines is rather inconsequential to its role as a damage dealer. Therefore, marines with 30% of HP are way better than zealots with 60% HP. Are you suggesting that as Terran you would preffer to go into battle with 30% hp marines againts 60% hp zealots rather than with 100% life marines againts 100% hp zealots?
WTF
if 30% marines > 60% zealots so 100% marines >>>>>>> 100% zealots
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On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P
Its better now
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On November 10 2011 09:31 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:20 hipsterHobbit wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense Sure it does. A zealot is meant to take damage, any damage it gives is supplementary to the protoss cause. Hence the name, zealot. Marines are meant to deal damage. Any change in hit points doesn't negate the damage it does, nor does it change the marine's role that much, as 30% or 100% hitpoints on marines is rather inconsequential to its role as a damage dealer. Therefore, marines with 30% of HP are way better than zealots with 60% HP. Are you suggesting that as Terran you would preffer to go into battle with 30% hp marines againts 60% hp zealots rather than with 100% life marines againts 100% hp zealots?
No, I never said or implied that. That is what you call a "strawman" argument.
I was simply explaining the rationale of why a zealot with less health has less utility than a marine with less health in the big picture.
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On November 10 2011 09:35 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P Its better now
I like you.
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Didn't realize there were so many people who take pride in the fact that their race is "harder" to play in the Gold league LOL
I'm mid masters and I think I'm so bad that I die of shame every time someone uploads a replay of my online, regardless of how "long/epic/close" the game was lol... If you talk to anyone close to/above Masters I doubt you would find a single person who would use their race as a form of validation
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On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P
eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you
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terrans wish ghosts cost 50 minerals and 150 gas
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EPT
