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On November 10 2011 09:39 Dommk wrote:
Didn't realize there were so many people who take pride in the fact that their race is "harder" to play in the Gold league LOL
I'm mid masters and I think I'm so bad that I die of shame every time someone uploads a replay of my online, regardless of how "long/epic/close" the game was lol... If you talk to anyone close to/above Masters I doubt you would find a single person who would use their race as a form of validation
Ever heard of IdrA?
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On November 10 2011 09:53 esaul17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:39 Dommk wrote:
Didn't realize there were so many people who take pride in the fact that their race is "harder" to play in the Gold league LOL
I'm mid masters and I think I'm so bad that I die of shame every time someone uploads a replay of my online, regardless of how "long/epic/close" the game was lol... If you talk to anyone close to/above Masters I doubt you would find a single person who would use their race as a form of validation Ever heard of IdrA?
Zerg are emo in general. Karrigan can prove that to you, wait for HOTS to come out.
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On November 10 2011 09:52 hipsterHobbit wrote:
terrans wish ghosts cost 50 minerals and 150 gas
once the mech in HOTS kicks in, mech players are going to be happy with the 200/100 cost =P
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On November 10 2011 09:51 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you
Orly? Why?
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Wow, this thread has devolved to a seriously sad level. Please get more on topic than "My race is harder to play than your race". Both races are viable at the highest level. You can complain and get nothing from it or get better and prove yourself.
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On November 10 2011 10:00 epicdemic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:51 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you Orly? Why?
There were a spreadsheet that collect the mineral/gas collected for 3 races when the 1st, 2nd, 3rd mules dies from 100 pro games from long time ago.
Basically the fomula is 2500 (mineral in 1 patch) * 8 (number of patch, 16 if FE) - (mineral left in patch 1 + mineral left in patch 2 + ......) = minerals collected.
The conclusion was that even if Terran use all 3 mules to mine mineral (no scan, no supply drop), the mineral collected for Terran is always lower than Protoss's and Zerg's.
Moreover, a mules can collect 270 minerals over 90sec game, which mean 3 mineral/sec, or 75 mineral per 25sec = 1 marine build time. That means with 1 mules, you can constantly produce 1.5 marines in that period of time. I guess it still kind of op.
But the point is, unless the base is fully saturated, or Terran taking advantage of FE, he will always be behind in mineral collected.
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On November 10 2011 10:26 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 10:00 epicdemic wrote:On November 10 2011 09:51 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you Orly? Why? There were a spreadsheet that collect the mineral/gas collected for 3 races when the 1st, 2nd, 3rd mules dies from 100 pro games from long time ago. Basically the fomula is 2500 (mineral in 1 patch) * 8 (number of patch, 16 if FE) - (mineral left in patch 1 + mineral left in patch 2 + ......) = minerals collected. The conclusion was that even if Terran use all 3 mules to mine mineral (no scan, no supply drop), the mineral collected for Terran is always lower than Protoss's and Zerg's. Moreover, a mules can collect 270 minerals over 90sec game, which mean 3 mineral/sec, or 75 mineral per 25sec = 1 marine build time. That means with 1 mules, you can constantly produce 1.5 marines in that period of time. I guess it still kind of op. But the point is, unless the base is fully saturated, or Terran taking advantage of FE, he will always be behind in mineral collected.
What were u smoking? If mules give you more minerals just from energy then how come the economy is worst?
The only thing i can think of is when terran takes its scvs to all in and leaves only few + mules. Then yes, the economy is worst, but mules can actually works as 3-4 additional scvs. ONE FRIGGIN MULE.
You do the math.
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On November 10 2011 10:31 mtn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 10:26 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 10:00 epicdemic wrote:On November 10 2011 09:51 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you Orly? Why? There were a spreadsheet that collect the mineral/gas collected for 3 races when the 1st, 2nd, 3rd mules dies from 100 pro games from long time ago. Basically the fomula is 2500 (mineral in 1 patch) * 8 (number of patch, 16 if FE) - (mineral left in patch 1 + mineral left in patch 2 + ......) = minerals collected. The conclusion was that even if Terran use all 3 mules to mine mineral (no scan, no supply drop), the mineral collected for Terran is always lower than Protoss's and Zerg's. Moreover, a mules can collect 270 minerals over 90sec game, which mean 3 mineral/sec, or 75 mineral per 25sec = 1 marine build time. That means with 1 mules, you can constantly produce 1.5 marines in that period of time. I guess it still kind of op. But the point is, unless the base is fully saturated, or Terran taking advantage of FE, he will always be behind in mineral collected. What were u smoking? If mules give you more minerals just from energy then how come the economy is worst? The only thing i can think of is when terran takes its scvs to all in and leaves only few + mules. Then yes, the economy is worst, but mules can actually works as 3-4 additional scvs. ONE FRIGGIN MULE. You do the math.
Because P/Z can produce workers faster, obviously. The trick is that mules allow for over-saturation and you cant just always go ahead and build more workers all the time, once both players have established a somewhat stable worker count then mules shine. And if you inbase expand and just double mule vs 1 base.
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On November 10 2011 10:31 mtn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 10:26 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 10:00 epicdemic wrote:On November 10 2011 09:51 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you Orly? Why? There were a spreadsheet that collect the mineral/gas collected for 3 races when the 1st, 2nd, 3rd mules dies from 100 pro games from long time ago. Basically the fomula is 2500 (mineral in 1 patch) * 8 (number of patch, 16 if FE) - (mineral left in patch 1 + mineral left in patch 2 + ......) = minerals collected. The conclusion was that even if Terran use all 3 mules to mine mineral (no scan, no supply drop), the mineral collected for Terran is always lower than Protoss's and Zerg's. Moreover, a mules can collect 270 minerals over 90sec game, which mean 3 mineral/sec, or 75 mineral per 25sec = 1 marine build time. That means with 1 mules, you can constantly produce 1.5 marines in that period of time. I guess it still kind of op. But the point is, unless the base is fully saturated, or Terran taking advantage of FE, he will always be behind in mineral collected. What were u smoking? If mules give you more minerals just from energy then how come the economy is worst? The only thing i can think of is when terran takes its scvs to all in and leaves only few + mules. Then yes, the economy is worst, but mules can actually works as 3-4 additional scvs. ONE FRIGGIN MULE. You do the math.
I do believe it was calculated before. If I remember correctly, Terran's economy is behind Protoss' and Zergs' until around 7 mins, then it evens out or they pull ahead, I forgot.
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On November 10 2011 10:31 mtn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 10:26 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 10:00 epicdemic wrote:On November 10 2011 09:51 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you Orly? Why? There were a spreadsheet that collect the mineral/gas collected for 3 races when the 1st, 2nd, 3rd mules dies from 100 pro games from long time ago. Basically the fomula is 2500 (mineral in 1 patch) * 8 (number of patch, 16 if FE) - (mineral left in patch 1 + mineral left in patch 2 + ......) = minerals collected. The conclusion was that even if Terran use all 3 mules to mine mineral (no scan, no supply drop), the mineral collected for Terran is always lower than Protoss's and Zerg's. Moreover, a mules can collect 270 minerals over 90sec game, which mean 3 mineral/sec, or 75 mineral per 25sec = 1 marine build time. That means with 1 mules, you can constantly produce 1.5 marines in that period of time. I guess it still kind of op. But the point is, unless the base is fully saturated, or Terran taking advantage of FE, he will always be behind in mineral collected. What were u smoking? If mules give you more minerals just from energy then how come the economy is worst? The only thing i can think of is when terran takes its scvs to all in and leaves only few + mules. Then yes, the economy is worst, but mules can actually works as 3-4 additional scvs. ONE FRIGGIN MULE. You do the math.
Because a mules can only collect mineral as fast as 4 workers, so if you are behind 4 workers, a mules can only even out the odd.
And you forget about the snowball effect. If you are behind 1 workers for 4*90 sec, that's the same with being behind 4 workers, or 1 mules. If you are behind 2 workers for 180sec = 3 minutes, that's the same with being behind 1 mules, so a mules can only even out that odd.
And believe me, being behind 2,3 workers early games is the norm in TvX.
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Meh. I like this update in all ways, but the implication of chargelot.
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On November 10 2011 10:31 mtn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 10:26 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 10:00 epicdemic wrote:On November 10 2011 09:51 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you Orly? Why? There were a spreadsheet that collect the mineral/gas collected for 3 races when the 1st, 2nd, 3rd mules dies from 100 pro games from long time ago. Basically the fomula is 2500 (mineral in 1 patch) * 8 (number of patch, 16 if FE) - (mineral left in patch 1 + mineral left in patch 2 + ......) = minerals collected. The conclusion was that even if Terran use all 3 mules to mine mineral (no scan, no supply drop), the mineral collected for Terran is always lower than Protoss's and Zerg's. Moreover, a mules can collect 270 minerals over 90sec game, which mean 3 mineral/sec, or 75 mineral per 25sec = 1 marine build time. That means with 1 mules, you can constantly produce 1.5 marines in that period of time. I guess it still kind of op. But the point is, unless the base is fully saturated, or Terran taking advantage of FE, he will always be behind in mineral collected. What were u smoking? If mules give you more minerals just from energy then how come the economy is worst? The only thing i can think of is when terran takes its scvs to all in and leaves only few + mules. Then yes, the economy is worst, but mules can actually works as 3-4 additional scvs. ONE FRIGGIN MULE. You do the math.
Mules=necessary when toss and zerg are both 4 workers ahead (at least, and zerg possibly one base ahead) by the time that you get the first mule out.
Why do you think so many pros go 3OC on 2base? They need the extra scv production to stay close to even against Z, and against P they need higher econ because bio gets wasted so much more easily than gateway units once robo tech hits the field (see 3gate immortal allin, Tyler's 2/2 colossus push).
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On November 10 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 09:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 08:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:51 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:39 Scufo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:27 Scufo wrote:
[quote]
Late game Terran OP...am I dreaming? Protoss armies ROLL Terran bio with no micro (except Stim) on either side. Chargelots and Colossus absolutely manhandle Marines and Marauders.
There's a reason Terran tends to be the aggressor in the early and mid game...if you don't hurt a toss you're in for an uphill battle in the lategame... I think I found your problems. You're supposed to micro your units. And make ghosts and vikings instead of just tier one units against an entire Protoss deathball. You're welcome. My point was, Protoss armies do much better than Terran ones with less-than-superb micro. It's a real problem for Plat-Diamond level players. There's a reason why Terran is the least played race there. Oh, I thought it was because all the Terrans had already moved up into Code S. Just kidding, but I feel that the necessary micro for both races is about even, and when Protoss don't hit forcefields or storms, they lose the game just as often as when Terrans don't split their units or cast EMPs. I think it averages out pretty well. No, the micro is NOT even. Terran has to micro way more, I thought that was common knowledge? Think about it, how much micro do you have to do with a zealot? Or with colossus? Point is you can get away with not microing as protoss. Your units are way more beefy and don't die as quick. A-move zealot/archon is brutal to deal with if you don't have perfect micro. NineteenSC2 already mentioned multiple necessary micro-moves for Protoss ("ff, gs, storm, feedback, blink, micro zealots, warp in units in the middle of a battle, spread hts & sentries"), which wasn't even all of them (moving colossi back against vikings, warp prism mechanics, etc.), so for you to suggest that Protoss only uses zealots, colossi, and archons (and therefore we only a-move) is ridiculous. Do you realize that Protoss has far more spells to cast? What does that mean to you?A lot of Protoss micro comes from the spellcasting aspect. A lot of the Terran micro comes from the splitting of the units (and not much else- just ghosts). Believe me, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when I say that it probably evens out. If you think casting ff's or storms is hard micro.... Idk what to say. Spellcasting is probably the easiest micro in the game. And I never see ANY protoss use blink at all vs. terran lmao, so you can just rule that one out completely. Go to darglein's micro trainer and choose the terran one "death ball" or whatever it's called and see for yourself how much harder it is. The reason you think that spellcasting is easy is because the one spell you cast against Protoss is done instantaneously. And you're probably cloaked at the time. I find it hilarious that you think anybody can cast forcefields like MC. Try it some time. And try throwing down perfect storms on moving targets too. Let me know how it goes. I've played protoss before and I know for a fact that you're exaggerating. You really think it's hard to put a storm behind a clump of units? Really? Or make a line of force fields? Look, I realized I hit a nerve when I called your race easier to micro, and you have to "defend your honor" now, but there's a reason terran is the least played race now. You would think with all the terrans doing well in code S, people would want to play the race because people are obviously having success with it. People that think terran is stim + amove are just the whiny protoss kids that don't realize that only at the tip top level is terran actually good. Again, you saying that a spell is easy and you doing it easily are two different things. And again, actually throwing down all the forcefields and storms (wait, how do our spellcasters have any energy? is Terran doing something wrong?) as opposed to throwing down EMPs are much harder and take much more time. You haven't given a single example defending any of your ridiculous claims, whereas plenty of people disagreeing with you have easily refuted your arguments. Maybe once you learn how to play the game, you'll stop whining about your race- which is just silly, considering it's been statistically better at the pro-level than the other two for nearly the entire existence of SC2. But yes, cling on to the fact that Terran isn't played as frequently in the gold league, despite the fact that we've already proven Protoss macro is just as hard (if not harder) and the micro is at least just as demanding. Terran is simply not mechanically overwhelming, compared to Protoss. Maybe people aren't playing Terran because they don't find it as interesting. Maybe it doesn't suit their playstyle. It may have nothing to do with difficulty. Or maybe they just don't know about the 1-1-1, ghosts, and the fact that you can go all-in with your workers three time a game. Surely even a gold level player can do those things. Anyways, I'm going to take a break from this thread. It was fun.
Typical incompetent analysis of statistics, and pretty much everything. Join date of 2010 basically says it all.
Name a single relevant non-Korean T player. Hint: there isn't, and there will never be. Thorzain and Select are probably going to be the best we'll ever see out of the foreign scene; the fact is that T isn't an easy race to play that bad players can be carried by. The best T players that we see results out of are some of the best players in the game, there's basically no question about that.
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On November 10 2011 10:55 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 09:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 09:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 08:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:51 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 07:39 Scufo wrote:On November 10 2011 07:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
I think I found your problems.
You're supposed to micro your units. And make ghosts and vikings instead of just tier one units against an entire Protoss deathball.
You're welcome. My point was, Protoss armies do much better than Terran ones with less-than-superb micro. It's a real problem for Plat-Diamond level players. There's a reason why Terran is the least played race there. Oh, I thought it was because all the Terrans had already moved up into Code S. Just kidding, but I feel that the necessary micro for both races is about even, and when Protoss don't hit forcefields or storms, they lose the game just as often as when Terrans don't split their units or cast EMPs. I think it averages out pretty well. No, the micro is NOT even. Terran has to micro way more, I thought that was common knowledge? Think about it, how much micro do you have to do with a zealot? Or with colossus? Point is you can get away with not microing as protoss. Your units are way more beefy and don't die as quick. A-move zealot/archon is brutal to deal with if you don't have perfect micro. NineteenSC2 already mentioned multiple necessary micro-moves for Protoss ("ff, gs, storm, feedback, blink, micro zealots, warp in units in the middle of a battle, spread hts & sentries"), which wasn't even all of them (moving colossi back against vikings, warp prism mechanics, etc.), so for you to suggest that Protoss only uses zealots, colossi, and archons (and therefore we only a-move) is ridiculous. Do you realize that Protoss has far more spells to cast? What does that mean to you?A lot of Protoss micro comes from the spellcasting aspect. A lot of the Terran micro comes from the splitting of the units (and not much else- just ghosts). Believe me, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when I say that it probably evens out. If you think casting ff's or storms is hard micro.... Idk what to say. Spellcasting is probably the easiest micro in the game. And I never see ANY protoss use blink at all vs. terran lmao, so you can just rule that one out completely. Go to darglein's micro trainer and choose the terran one "death ball" or whatever it's called and see for yourself how much harder it is. The reason you think that spellcasting is easy is because the one spell you cast against Protoss is done instantaneously. And you're probably cloaked at the time. I find it hilarious that you think anybody can cast forcefields like MC. Try it some time. And try throwing down perfect storms on moving targets too. Let me know how it goes. I've played protoss before and I know for a fact that you're exaggerating. You really think it's hard to put a storm behind a clump of units? Really? Or make a line of force fields? Look, I realized I hit a nerve when I called your race easier to micro, and you have to "defend your honor" now, but there's a reason terran is the least played race now. You would think with all the terrans doing well in code S, people would want to play the race because people are obviously having success with it. People that think terran is stim + amove are just the whiny protoss kids that don't realize that only at the tip top level is terran actually good. Again, you saying that a spell is easy and you doing it easily are two different things. And again, actually throwing down all the forcefields and storms (wait, how do our spellcasters have any energy? is Terran doing something wrong?) as opposed to throwing down EMPs are much harder and take much more time. You haven't given a single example defending any of your ridiculous claims, whereas plenty of people disagreeing with you have easily refuted your arguments. Maybe once you learn how to play the game, you'll stop whining about your race- which is just silly, considering it's been statistically better at the pro-level than the other two for nearly the entire existence of SC2. But yes, cling on to the fact that Terran isn't played as frequently in the gold league, despite the fact that we've already proven Protoss macro is just as hard (if not harder) and the micro is at least just as demanding. Terran is simply not mechanically overwhelming, compared to Protoss. Maybe people aren't playing Terran because they don't find it as interesting. Maybe it doesn't suit their playstyle. It may have nothing to do with difficulty. Or maybe they just don't know about the 1-1-1, ghosts, and the fact that you can go all-in with your workers three time a game. Surely even a gold level player can do those things. Anyways, I'm going to take a break from this thread. It was fun. Typical incompetent analysis of statistics, and pretty much everything. Join date of 2010 basically says it all. Name a single relevant non-Korean T player. Hint: there isn't, and there will never be. Thorzain and Select are probably going to be the best we'll ever see out of the foreign scene; the fact is that T isn't an easy race to play that bad players can be carried by. The best T players that we see results out of are some of the best players in the game, there's basically no question about that.
Typical generalizations and ridiculous assumptions, and pretty much everything. Low post count basically says it all.
SjoW, Select, and Thorzain. And there are a few relevant non-Korean Zergs and Protosses too. Are you surprised that there are far more great Korean players for every race? If you are, you're not too savvy in the StarCraft scene. I never said Terran was easy to play; I've simply been saying that Protoss isn't ridiculously easy comparatively. To say that there won't ever be any other good Terran foreigners besides Thorzain and Select is an omniscient statement that I'm not prepared to make yet. But I'm glad that you are.
Am I doing it right?
But I certainly agree that some of the best Terran players are some of the best players in the game.
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On November 10 2011 10:42 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 10:31 mtn wrote:On November 10 2011 10:26 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 10:00 epicdemic wrote:On November 10 2011 09:51 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you Orly? Why? There were a spreadsheet that collect the mineral/gas collected for 3 races when the 1st, 2nd, 3rd mules dies from 100 pro games from long time ago. Basically the fomula is 2500 (mineral in 1 patch) * 8 (number of patch, 16 if FE) - (mineral left in patch 1 + mineral left in patch 2 + ......) = minerals collected. The conclusion was that even if Terran use all 3 mules to mine mineral (no scan, no supply drop), the mineral collected for Terran is always lower than Protoss's and Zerg's. Moreover, a mules can collect 270 minerals over 90sec game, which mean 3 mineral/sec, or 75 mineral per 25sec = 1 marine build time. That means with 1 mules, you can constantly produce 1.5 marines in that period of time. I guess it still kind of op. But the point is, unless the base is fully saturated, or Terran taking advantage of FE, he will always be behind in mineral collected. What were u smoking? If mules give you more minerals just from energy then how come the economy is worst? The only thing i can think of is when terran takes its scvs to all in and leaves only few + mules. Then yes, the economy is worst, but mules can actually works as 3-4 additional scvs. ONE FRIGGIN MULE. You do the math. Because a mules can only collect mineral as fast as 4 workers, so if you are behind 4 workers, a mules can only even out the odd. And you forget about the snowball effect. If you are behind 1 workers for 4*90 sec, that's the same with being behind 4 workers, or 1 mules. If you are behind 2 workers for 180sec = 3 minutes, that's the same with being behind 1 mules, so a mules can only even out that odd. And believe me, being behind 2,3 workers early games is the norm in TvX.
This is BS however.
You're pretending that protoss can afford to use all their chrono on probes.
you're also ignoring the fact that to produce probes at that rate protoss actually have to delay their tech. constant chrono probe production is expensive. you end up getting your gateway late, your cyber late and then have no chrono to get warpgate tech quickly. you give up any chance of early pressure if you use all your chrono on probes. in most "real" games protoss can use 2 chrono on probes. that means when terran has 14 scvs protoss will have 16 and they will have invested 100mins to get that. 1 mule will balance that out easily. 2 mules and terran is ahead.
terran has no requirement to save mules for scans unless they think protoss is rushing DT's. 1 mule will fund an engineering bay and a turret at your min line effectively neutralising that problem. I WISH i could use a chrono to fund 2 more gateways or a forge and cannon.
Same deal for zerg. If zerg build nothing but drones, sure they'll get ahead of terran. but if you attack them with your first bunch of marines, or apply bunker rush pressure or anything else which forces zerg to build units instead of drones then your mules are putting you in the lead.
PLUS terran can go 1 rax CC, convert to orbital and use double mules on their main and have double scv production. use that extra income to catch up on army size and float the orbital to their nat for the safest expand in the game. turns out the other guy was planning a 1 base push? lift off, land in your main and keep muling. your ecnomy is bigger, you'll be able to break the contain, and then double expand when your main runs dry to your nat and your 3rd without investing any more resources.
Sure, terran has the worst <7 minute economy if everyone agrees to do nothing for the first 8 minutes of the game.
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On November 10 2011 11:24 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 10:42 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 10:31 mtn wrote:On November 10 2011 10:26 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 10:00 epicdemic wrote:On November 10 2011 09:51 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:31 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 09:00 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HP
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:
if you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge.
1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast!
good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? I reffered to point i had comment to. Its not like i going to argue on facts. Maybe little hint, when you compare two units, to not be called biased i propose to show pros of them both (abillity to merge to archons, ability to warp in, feedback that can kill high tech units and messively damage others, lower cost) yeah you are right, I forgot to mention: ghost can Nuke and the HT can merge to archons ghost snipe that can kill high tech units and massively damage others and HT's feedback that can kill high tech units (with energy) and messively damage others ghosts cost 150 minerals more and 50 gas less than HTs, unfortunately, protoss is the most gas heavy race while terran has MULEs =P eh WHAT? Terran has the WORST economy of any race in this game despite having mules ... you guys are clueless aren't you Orly? Why? There were a spreadsheet that collect the mineral/gas collected for 3 races when the 1st, 2nd, 3rd mules dies from 100 pro games from long time ago. Basically the fomula is 2500 (mineral in 1 patch) * 8 (number of patch, 16 if FE) - (mineral left in patch 1 + mineral left in patch 2 + ......) = minerals collected. The conclusion was that even if Terran use all 3 mules to mine mineral (no scan, no supply drop), the mineral collected for Terran is always lower than Protoss's and Zerg's. Moreover, a mules can collect 270 minerals over 90sec game, which mean 3 mineral/sec, or 75 mineral per 25sec = 1 marine build time. That means with 1 mules, you can constantly produce 1.5 marines in that period of time. I guess it still kind of op. But the point is, unless the base is fully saturated, or Terran taking advantage of FE, he will always be behind in mineral collected. What were u smoking? If mules give you more minerals just from energy then how come the economy is worst? The only thing i can think of is when terran takes its scvs to all in and leaves only few + mules. Then yes, the economy is worst, but mules can actually works as 3-4 additional scvs. ONE FRIGGIN MULE. You do the math. Because a mules can only collect mineral as fast as 4 workers, so if you are behind 4 workers, a mules can only even out the odd. And you forget about the snowball effect. If you are behind 1 workers for 4*90 sec, that's the same with being behind 4 workers, or 1 mules. If you are behind 2 workers for 180sec = 3 minutes, that's the same with being behind 1 mules, so a mules can only even out that odd. And believe me, being behind 2,3 workers early games is the norm in TvX. This is BS however. You're pretending that protoss can afford to use all their chrono on probes. you're also ignoring the fact that to produce probes at that rate protoss actually have to delay their tech. constant chrono probe production is expensive. you end up getting your gateway late, your cyber late and then have no chrono to get warpgate tech quickly. you give up any chance of early pressure if you use all your chrono on probes. in most "real" games protoss can use 2 chrono on probes. that means when terran has 14 scvs protoss will have 16 and they will have invested 100mins to get that. 1 mule will balance that out easily. 2 mules and terran is ahead. terran has no requirement to save mules for scans unless they think protoss is rushing DT's. 1 mule will fund an engineering bay and a turret at your min line effectively neutralising that problem. I WISH i could use a chrono to fund 2 more gateways or a forge and cannon. Same deal for zerg. If zerg build nothing but drones, sure they'll get ahead of terran. but if you attack them with your first bunch of marines, or apply bunker rush pressure or anything else which forces zerg to build units instead of drones then your mules are putting you in the lead. PLUS terran can go 1 rax CC, convert to orbital and use double mules on their main and have double scv production. use that extra income to catch up on army size and float the orbital to their nat for the safest expand in the game. turns out the other guy was planning a 1 base push? lift off, land in your main and keep muling. your ecnomy is bigger, you'll be able to break the contain, and then double expand when your main runs dry to your nat and your 3rd without investing any more resources. Sure, terran has the worst <7 minute economy if everyone agrees to do nothing for the first 8 minutes of the game.
I did not make those up. The data was collected based on pro games, which people used various strats, from FE to 4 gate. The reason why it stopped at 3rd mules was because at that time all race's strat should be executed(banshee, all in, 4 gate, dt, baneling bust), and the variables are too many to collect.
And you don't have to constantly chronoboost your nexus. What I said above is just a simple example to show that if you are behind 4 workers, or 1 worker in a long period of time, the mules can only even out the resource collected. But you understand the point, you'll know that it's deeper than that.
For example, Terran has to use SCV to build stuffs. So take banshee build order for example, there's 1 scv dedicated to build 1 sp, 1 rax, 1 fact, 1 starport (30+60+60+50 = 200 sec), so although Terran may be behind 2 scv in paper, he's actually is behind 1 worker since 10 supply up until the 3rd mules (banshee tech is complete around 3rd mules)
And mind you, I only talk about Terran always behind in mineral collected, not theorycraft it out, since the data was made and concluded that long ago already.
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On November 10 2011 09:12 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 09:09 K3Nyy wrote:On November 10 2011 09:06 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 09:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:55 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 08:42 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 08:37 rpgalon wrote:On November 10 2011 08:25 keglu wrote:On November 10 2011 07:46 rpgalon wrote:
Plz, stop with the ghost VS HT shit, there is no need for it
6- EMP can't be dodged after launch, when you see the EMP, it already did its job
7- EMP is instant, Storm takes 4 seconds to deal 80 dmg, it almost never do 80 dmg usually the kiting marine marauder ball takes only 40 dmg ( zealots takes the other 40 dmg...)
we already have a winner...gg =D
6. Thats the mail problem for not pro terran players. Since if you protoss when you get hit by emp you take full damage not matter how good you are so the game is balanced around that. For terran Blizzard balance game for best players which are capable of dodging storm, at the same time casual ladder players cant do that. It's the same with marines micro againts banegling for example. Because of that imo ladder population of terran will shrink further(its already happening). 7. 40 dmg to marines is significantly more devastating then emp on zealots, 40 dmg to marauders is as devastating like emp on zealots. Since zealot/stalkers models are bigger than marine/marauder i assume that with the same radius stom can hit more units than emp. nah, marines with 30% of HP are far better than zealots with 60% HPif you don't kill the marines, you did almost nothing, the nunber of times a protoss player loses to a 10 health MM ball is huge. 1 marine have the same dps as 1 stalker on light units, you have to kill then, fast! good job anyway on those points, now, what about the other 15 points? And why is that when 30%hp marines die way faster and does less dps? If you take into account the fact that you can make two marines for the price of one zealot, two unstimmed marines have higher dps than one zealot. Also, if you stim them, they have much higher dps. Also, you can kite, which makes zealots have zero dps!  Yeah that sounds good but oh you forgot that they instantly!. Zealots with charge ALWAYS DO DMG you cant "kite away so they have zero dps". Umm, I'm fairly certain that chargelots don't always hit. You can still kite them indefinitely. There was a bug fix where occasionally, chargelots would run into units and not swing (deal melee damage), and that bug was fixed (so that now, every time zealots get *within melee range*, they'll deal damage), but you can still outrun zealots so that they never get within melee range, since you can outrange them. Could you picture zealots being invincible and using charge indefinitely until they dealt damage? I can't, but that's pretty much what you're proposing (at least, that they can't be killed off until they hit a target). Stimmed microed bio > chargelots No they always do dmg. Try it out in-game if you want to and you will see its true. No they don't. You can kite them with Conc shells. Patch 1.3.0 * Charging Zealots will now hit fleeing targets at least once. 
Yea I remember how giddy I was when they patched that. But it doesn't work as advertised. With concussive, even chargelots can be kited indefinitely. I'm not saying kiting chargelots and taking no damage is easy, but you can avoid being hit by many of them.
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On November 10 2011 02:42 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:28 teddyoojo wrote:
ye im really looking forward to play terran even more now Poor you, EMP has the same radius as storm. qq
Yes because Terran and Protoss are the same race.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
ah well protoss gets even stronger. hopefully guys in blizzard know what they do.
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On November 10 2011 16:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 02:42 Brotocol wrote:On November 10 2011 02:28 teddyoojo wrote:
ye im really looking forward to play terran even more now Poor you, EMP has the same radius as storm. qq Yes because Terran and Protoss are the same race.
Well at least Terran can just move out of the storm to take less damage, and not like Protoss isn't able to avoid EMP right?
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EPT
