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On November 08 2011 21:44 IgnE wrote:
Even if the auto-matchmaking system gives you 50% wins in all 3 matchups, it's not fun to win 50% of your mirror, 60+% of tvz and feel hopeless going into tvp, knowing that you have to win before he gets out collosus and HTs.
Cheaper upgrades make upgrades faster. Anyone who "does math" and says that the upgrades are still the same length have no real concept of how the game actually works. Upgrades are rarely, except in special builds, hit at a certain time, all the time, at the expense of other basic macro priorities. They are typically fit into the builds by using extra accumulated gas/minerals that would have been used to tech somewhere else/add more production/set up an expansion/gear up for an attack/defense. When you have cheaper upgrades, its much easier to accumulate the required resources in the normal course of macro and hence makes it easier to fit in earlier in builds. In empirical practice, cheaper means faster, on average, across all players and games. That said, I would be fine with the upgrade buff if the emp nerf weren't so bad.
I'd almost rather have KA back in the game than have to nerf emp. I like the shield upgrade idea reducing emp damage to shields.
The emp nerf effectively kills early ghost builds which depended on doing cost effective damage to shields/sentry energy. Terrans have one less pressure build to use, allowing protoss to either macro up more easily, or use their more powerful 2 base timings. This also makes it more dangerous for terrans to take an early third, which they now need even more in order to get out more ghosts to deal with the protoss deathball.
This is EXACTLY what protoss needed, a bio ball with 2 or more ghosts in a timing attack than can a-move and easily emp the toss and win is kind of ridiculous, just like the 1-1-1. I also think snipe ranged needs to be nerfed a bit. Remember, the strengths of terran are positioning, micro and multitasking. These changes just make terran more reliant on that, which suits the game, don't you think?
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On November 10 2011 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:11 Tweleve wrote:On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. where do you come up with this crap Did I say something that is wrong? Yeah, I'll bold and underline it for you.
Then show him one statistic/results/anything that prove him wrong? While you are at it, stop being a smartass too.
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On November 10 2011 05:20 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:11 Tweleve wrote:On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. where do you come up with this crap Did I say something that is wrong? Yeah, I'll bold and underline it for you. Then show him one statistic/results/anything that prove him wrong? While you are at it, stop being a smartass too.
Unfortunately for lower level players this game should be balanced at the highest level, just look at BW you needed ridiculous skill to play all the races decently anyways. In hots it will be easier to play terran because you can just mass mech every game as a low skill player 
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On November 10 2011 05:11 Tweleve wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. where do you come up with this crap
ehm facts ?
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i dont think changes like this could happen without blizard interaction wiht the community. PTR has shown to be a great sucess hope to see more patches like this.
On November 10 2011 05:16 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:13 Juanald wrote:this patch is a step in the right direction its good to finaly see a nerf on EMP . i think a lot of the terrans dont understand how micro intensive it is splitting your units to avoid emp splash and theres really not many ways to see the ghost coming bcos of range / radius. On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. Oh pls protoss is just as hard if not the hardest race to micro give it a try sometime and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did... i thought this thread was to discuss the changes and not for venting Lol hardest to micro? Really? You talk about splitting to avoid emp have you tried splitting vs. storm? While stutter stepping? While target firing colossus with vikings? Go look at Sc2ranks and you'll see there is way way WAY more protoss than terran on ladder, and why do you think that would be?
wat world do you live in.. keeping ur zealots in front of your collosus takes just as much micro as the situation u described. and yes there are a few protoss who against all odds have placed high on the ladder.. thats why players like axslave huk incontrol and minigun are celebritys.. take a look at GSL and see all the terrans doing well take ur balance venting somewhere else you arent really adding anything to the discussion
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On November 10 2011 05:11 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:56 s3rp wrote:On November 10 2011 04:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 04:43 s3rp wrote:On November 10 2011 04:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 04:37 s3rp wrote:On November 10 2011 04:26 Alzadar wrote:On November 10 2011 04:13 bLo0d wrote:
The problem with the forge patch imo is that protoss upgrades are meant to be slightly more expensive since they apply to a wider variety of units. Basically u only really need 3/0/3 to be sufficient in late game as protoss. Shields, to be honest, are just taking the unit to the next level. Its not like +3shields and +3 armor = +3 armor for terran. Terran as well needs 3/3 and in some cases +2 on air. Zerg need +3 melee and/or range and +3 armor as well as possible +1/2/3 air. It is kind of a broken concept to buff forge ups because any viable tech switch protoss makes is supported by forge except stargate. While terran cannot just switch into mech lategame or go mass starports because those units will be behind on upgrades. Zerg cannot just go mass roach or mass muta after ultralisks with perfect efficiency because those units will most likely be less upgraded if the match is relatively even. Lastly, a bit off topic, what makes tvp a bit difficult for terran is the fact that there is no lategame unit such as the broodlord or the colosus to build up to. Bcs are of course not all that great. So you are forced as terran to stay bio and fight massive aoe with it. Why all the hate for BattleCruisers? Just don't let the Protoss feedback them and you're all set. You do know they have only 6 Range right ? How am i supposed to not get them feedbacked while still attacking Protoss units ? Not to mention 1 costs 400/300 . For 400/300 i get other stuff that would just wipe the floor with BC's... You do know you're allowed to make units besides battlecruisers when attacking with battlecruisers, right? I just edited a bit to it .... A switch to BC's only works ( like one to BC's ) when you can stall your opponent ( and there's not really anything that can stall the toss in 2-3 Bases ) or he just doesn't attack you for ages. And that rarely ever happens I played around with BC's before its as valid as a switch into Carriers for Protoss is just without Chronoboost. I see your edit, so I'll respond to it: On November 10 2011 04:37 s3rp wrote:
And if quote me build Ghosts then explain me how am i supposed to Get Ghosts , BC , Upgrade ( and probably a buttload of other stuff that needs Gas ) before i'm on at least 8 Gas ? And in lategame you can't just switch into BC's they get demolished by 3-3 Stalkers if they aren't 3-3 themselves not to mention building them takes for 90 Seconds thats ages . No reasonable Protoss will give me enough time to produce BC's in suffient numbers before i get overrun by a buttload of gateway units + some support. They take 6 supply so while they build thats 6 supply i don't have. Terran is, by far, the least gas-heavy race in the game. Protoss is the most gas-heavy, closely followed by Zerg. How do you think Protoss can afford upgrades, colossi, high templar, and gateway units? We find a way. As a Terran, you're never allowed to complain about not having enough gas. Ever. Terran is only the least gas-heavy race when playing Bio. Anything but Bio and Helions costs at least 100 Gas ( well 75 but Vikings are only good for AA ). If you build BC's Terran instantly becomes the most gas heavy race. They take more then any unit in the game . On less then 8 Gas you can only get a few and BC's are only good if you reach bigger numbers. Oh so if you decide to never build half of your units (the half that most Terrans only build) and decide to only build one unit (the most expensive unit you can) off *not enough bases*, you become really really gas-starved? And you thought that was a sensible argument? Well I guess if I only cannon rush you or just make zealots, my race can be stereotyped as not needing gas! That's good to know ::facepalm::
You cleary have no clue what you as talking about. There is a reason those units are not used by anybody . I'm just going to give up. Stay believe what you want to believe but anything outside of mass Bio is not solid enough for big macro games. Even GoOdy hits timings with his Mech in most of his games or else he'd lose.
If you don't believe me start laddering as Terran ( right now you'd hit a buttloard of Toss ) and start playing BC's , Banshees, Mech or whatever you think might be good but actually is just a gimmick . Your gonna get crushed like there's no tomorow , trust me . I've played and wached enough games to know what i'm talking about. And if you don't trust the guys that earn their paychecks playing the game. Those guys played more then enough to know whats possible to pull of and what not. TvP evolved from just about anything in what it is today exactly because there is only 1 really viable Strat for longer games.
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On November 10 2011 05:26 Juanald wrote:i dont think changes like this could happen without blizard interaction wiht the community. PTR has shown to be a great sucess hope to see more patches like this. Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:16 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:13 Juanald wrote:this patch is a step in the right direction its good to finaly see a nerf on EMP . i think a lot of the terrans dont understand how micro intensive it is splitting your units to avoid emp splash and theres really not many ways to see the ghost coming bcos of range / radius. On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. Oh pls protoss is just as hard if not the hardest race to micro give it a try sometime and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did... i thought this thread was to discuss the changes and not for venting Lol hardest to micro? Really? You talk about splitting to avoid emp have you tried splitting vs. storm? While stutter stepping? While target firing colossus with vikings? Go look at Sc2ranks and you'll see there is way way WAY more protoss than terran on ladder, and why do you think that would be? wat world do you live in.. keeping ur zealots in front of your collosus takes just as much micro as the situation u described. and yes there are a few protoss who against all odds have placed high on the ladder.. thats why players like axslave huk incontrol and minigun are celebritys.. take a look at GSL and see all the terrans doing well take ur balance venting somewhere else you arent really adding anything to the discussion
Oh god, tell me you're trolling...
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On November 08 2011 22:06 rEalGuapo wrote:Well, Ghosts kill every Zerg unit as much as Infestors and HTs do, just the other way round, while fungal and Storm is great vs low HP units, Snipe is good vs units with a lot of hp+armor. Also you forgot about Infested Terrans wich are basically Marines for only the cost of energy. So: Ghosts - Good vs Casters, big units, can cloak, can launch a nuclear freaking missile (not that it matters in over 0.1% of the games, still awesome though Infestors - good vs units that rely on mobility, low HP units, air, great harras(Fungal and Infested Terrans, whatever you please), can burrow move HTs - Good vs every caster but Ghosts, low/middlish hp units, slow units. can merge to form Archon. So you see? ever caster has his own strengths and weaknesses.
Yes, you're right, every caster does have their own strengths and weaknesses.. but here's the problem.
1) High temp... Tech tier 3. Storm could be considered tech tier 3.5 since you have to research it from a tech tier 3 building. But even then let's ignore the 3.5... high temp with storm is just a tier 3 unit.
2) Ghost. Tech tier 2. And how much research do you need to be able to emp/snipe? Right.
High temp, the expensive tech tier 3 unit is the counter to what? Small bio units like marines and marauders in PvT, zerglings banelings and hydra in PvZ? So pretty much the researched tech tier 3 unit can counter tech tier 1s pretty well. That seems fair.
Now let's look at what ghosts 'counter'. Hive tech. Ultralisks and broodlords, they also can counter/emp infestors which are lair tech.
So ghosts can hard counter higher tech units than them, while not really being that high of a tech level. High temps can counter significantly lower tech tier units than them. So they're only helpful when the opponent is either choosing to use the lower tech tier (And how many terrans do anything other than MMMghost? MMMghost is pretty low tech level, 0 BCs or Thors) or you've limited them to that lower tech tier somehow. So in order for high temps to be a useful spellcaster you need to be ahead of your opponent in tech or they need to be going for a low tech army. While on the other hand ghosts are HOW you limit your opponent to low tech stuff against zerg and well... emp is kinda good against everything toss has.
A lower tier unit hard countering a higher tier unit even at a 1.65 to 1 level is ridiculously cost efficient compared to what the other races have to do to counter high tech options. And the ability to cut the life total of a good chunk of units effectively in half AND take away energy at the same time instantly when the opponent's only option is an AOE spell of the same radius and less maximum damage that does damage over time and can be moved out of fairly early to make the ability do even less damage? Yeah... you're right, that sounds 100% balanced.
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On November 10 2011 05:20 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:11 Tweleve wrote:On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. where do you come up with this crap Did I say something that is wrong? Yeah, I'll bold and underline it for you. Then show him one statistic/results/anything that prove him wrong? While you are at it, stop being a smartass too.
His whole post is nonsensical, to the point that it shouldn't even need to be addressed. Responding to it seriously would be lending credibility to something that should be able to be dismissed out-of-hand.
But you could dismantle it by using three numbers: 1-1-1.
You could also point out how EMP has been destroying Protosses all across the board (by Terrans who actually care to use the anti-Protoss unit properly), as ghosts can do far more damage than anything that Protoss can throw back at the Terran (far more than high templar or colossi). Immediately dealing thousands of damage and nullifying all Protoss spellcasters? Yeah that takes great skill.
Furthermore, to suggest that Protoss don't need to micro or stay on top of their macro or scout, while Terrans aren't the ones known for turtling up, is absurd.
So yes, Terran has been raping Zerg and Protoss in Code S for a very long time (which, don't forget, is the basis for racial balance). But that doesn't mean that Protoss is necessarily easy in the lower leagues, or that Terran has an excuse for not implementing winning strategies or better mechanics.
The fact that I had to even write this out is ridiculous.
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On November 10 2011 04:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:27 Rye. wrote:On November 10 2011 04:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 10 2011 04:01 Morale wrote:On November 10 2011 03:56 Primal666 wrote:On November 10 2011 03:49 pezit wrote:
If you lose versus a protoss you would've lost before the patch as well that's how tiny these changes are, only at the absolute top level of play will this change anything and even then it will be barely noticable. I disagree in tvp, lower leauges got nerfed more than top play, because in top play EMPs are genrally more accurate. They are also better at spreading so id say it kinda evens out! People use ghosts in lower leagues? I'm gold and i use EMP's. People who say lower league players just need to "macro better" are idiots. If i don't micro, my marines die to banelings. If i don't kite, my MM's get chopped up by zealots. I could have awesome macro, but if i went mech against toss I'd lose. EMP nerf will hurt me way more than it will hurt someone from masters or GM. Its very easy for a gold player to get storms off. As soon as one hits its pretty much GG. I don't complain though, i'll just get better. *he says after a massive losing streak and demotion to gold* Several people have said that balance is/should be for GM and Pro level. This is so wrong. Blizzard have it right, they balance for everyone. If a patch balanced GM level but made TvP Impossible for lower leagues then people would stop playing which would mean less HOTS sales and less SC3 sales etc... remember 80% of players are in Plat and below. Blizzard is games company out to make profit. They are very very nice when it comes to supporting games. They also do what they can for the pro scene, but ultimately they are a company out to make money from games. As a High Platinum Protoss who was crushed by terrans for quite a while, I don't really feel that bad. The vast majority of terrans I faced in gold league were One-Base-Wonders who 3 raxed stim pushed their way to glory. I lost to them over an over as I struggled to get good enough to macro and force field my ramp to keep the MM and SCV out. One day I had a break through and shot past them. And they cried that protoss was broken and impossible the entire way. People who claim that terran has it hard in the lower leagues sound like they have a bad match up. When I was in silver and gold, terran was my worst. I lost 85% of my games. And Protoss was nerfed serveral times while I was struggling. People who are crying now are doing just that. Just crying about their worst match up. I guess they will need to practice harder. Balance should be aimed at the highest level players. Anyone who wants otherwise just wants the game to be made easier for them and to make up for their weaknesses. If a nerf hurts a build you were counting on, you were likely counting on an abusive build.
I think the differnent races have walls at different distances.
I struggled with banlings for a while, once i figured out how to deal with them i didn't lose to a zerg for a while. The zergs that were able to beat me must have had luck with banelings at some point until better players were able to cope. then they had to incoporate something else into their play.
I then hit the Muta wall. They just flew into my base and GG. Then i learned some half decent turret placement and left a few marines behind. Wall climbed. Now its turtling zergs aiming for Broodlord infestor.
On November 10 2011 04:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:27 Rye. wrote:On November 10 2011 04:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 10 2011 04:01 Morale wrote:On November 10 2011 03:56 Primal666 wrote:On November 10 2011 03:49 pezit wrote:
If you lose versus a protoss you would've lost before the patch as well that's how tiny these changes are, only at the absolute top level of play will this change anything and even then it will be barely noticable. I disagree in tvp, lower leauges got nerfed more than top play, because in top play EMPs are genrally more accurate. They are also better at spreading so id say it kinda evens out! People use ghosts in lower leagues? I'm gold and i use EMP's. People who say lower league players just need to "macro better" are idiots. If i don't micro, my marines die to banelings. If i don't kite, my MM's get chopped up by zealots. I could have awesome macro, but if i went mech against toss I'd lose. EMP nerf will hurt me way more than it will hurt someone from masters or GM. Its very easy for a gold player to get storms off. As soon as one hits its pretty much GG. I don't complain though, i'll just get better. *he says after a massive losing streak and demotion to gold* Several people have said that balance is/should be for GM and Pro level. This is so wrong. Blizzard have it right, they balance for everyone. If a patch balanced GM level but made TvP Impossible for lower leagues then people would stop playing which would mean less HOTS sales and less SC3 sales etc... remember 80% of players are in Plat and below. Blizzard is games company out to make profit. They are very very nice when it comes to supporting games. They also do what they can for the pro scene, but ultimately they are a company out to make money from games. 1. Macro comes first. Then micro and unit composition and other things. Obviously. That's what people say. They don't say you never need anything besides macro. 2. EMP nerf hurts you more than a pro because they have better aim, but why would a storm be just as easy for a player of your caliber? Storms are significantly harder to use than EMP. They aren't immediate damage, they're the same radius, high templar are slower than ghosts and can't be cloaked, and high templar have shorter range. Duh. Plus, ghosts can make it so high templar can never use storm anyway lol. 3. It's impossible to balance for lower level players, because there are too many confounding variables, due to the fact that their play is so inherently flawed. You never know if a loss is due to the fact that there is a race imbalance, or because the players just didn't play to the best of the races' abilities. It's possible to assess imbalance at the top level, where mechanics are nearly perfect. Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:33 petro1987 wrote:On November 10 2011 04:27 Rye. wrote:On November 10 2011 04:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 10 2011 04:01 Morale wrote:On November 10 2011 03:56 Primal666 wrote:On November 10 2011 03:49 pezit wrote:
If you lose versus a protoss you would've lost before the patch as well that's how tiny these changes are, only at the absolute top level of play will this change anything and even then it will be barely noticable. I disagree in tvp, lower leauges got nerfed more than top play, because in top play EMPs are genrally more accurate. They are also better at spreading so id say it kinda evens out! People use ghosts in lower leagues? I'm gold and i use EMP's. People who say lower league players just need to "macro better" are idiots. If i don't micro, my marines die to banelings. If i don't kite, my MM's get chopped up by zealots. I could have awesome macro, but if i went mech against toss I'd lose. EMP nerf will hurt me way more than it will hurt someone from masters or GM. Its very easy for a gold player to get storms off. As soon as one hits its pretty much GG. I don't complain though, i'll just get better. *he says after a massive losing streak and demotion to gold* Several people have said that balance is/should be for GM and Pro level. This is so wrong. Blizzard have it right, they balance for everyone. If a patch balanced GM level but made TvP Impossible for lower leagues then people would stop playing which would mean less HOTS sales and less SC3 sales etc... remember 80% of players are in Plat and below. Blizzard is games company out to make profit. They are very very nice when it comes to supporting games. They also do what they can for the pro scene, but ultimately they are a company out to make money from games. Don't bother arguing with them. Eventually there will be like 10% T everywhere below masters and they'll be pleased to play PvP and PvZ all day. Oh, and by the way, P is way harder to play, that's way there are so few T and so much P below masters. It's funny that you're defending someone who has no idea what he's talking about. That's called looking silly by association.
You say i dont know what im talking about. I think im more qualified to talk about Gold level play than you (you're likely Masters or something juding by your comments) Do you watch streams or Vod or replays of Gold players?? How can you know what the games are like?
Its not about what is easier to use. both are just point and click. Being able to keep an eye on the minimap and react in time is something else. All it takes is for me to focus on by base for 10 secs and ZAP! STORM!!! half my army dead. Remember we're talking about 80% of players. We don't have one eye one the minimap at all times and we're not able to do everything whilst staring at our army. A toss getting a storm off IS EASY at this level and its brutal. It doesnt even have to be when 2 armies collide. HT's can walk over on their own and storm.
As for impossible to balance for low levels. Maybe. but I'll tell you this.. If blizzard brought KA back and all gold toss started using warp in storms i'd likely quit playing and not buy HOTS. Maybe for the lower leagues its more about minimising imbalance.
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On November 10 2011 05:28 Cornix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:06 rEalGuapo wrote:Well, Ghosts kill every Zerg unit as much as Infestors and HTs do, just the other way round, while fungal and Storm is great vs low HP units, Snipe is good vs units with a lot of hp+armor. Also you forgot about Infested Terrans wich are basically Marines for only the cost of energy. So: Ghosts - Good vs Casters, big units, can cloak, can launch a nuclear freaking missile (not that it matters in over 0.1% of the games, still awesome though Infestors - good vs units that rely on mobility, low HP units, air, great harras(Fungal and Infested Terrans, whatever you please), can burrow move HTs - Good vs every caster but Ghosts, low/middlish hp units, slow units. can merge to form Archon. So you see? ever caster has his own strengths and weaknesses. Yes, you're right, every caster does have their own strengths and weaknesses.. but here's the problem. 1) High temp... Tech tier 3. Storm could be considered tech tier 3.5 since you have to research it from a tech tier 3 building. But even then let's ignore the 3.5... high temp with storm is just a tier 3 unit. 2) Ghost. Tech tier 2. And how much research do you need to be able to emp/snipe? Right. High temp, the expensive tech tier 3 unit is the counter to what? Small bio units like marines and marauders in PvT, zerglings banelings and hydra in PvZ? So pretty much the researched tech tier 3 unit can counter tech tier 1s pretty well. That seems fair. Now let's look at what ghosts 'counter'. Hive tech. Ultralisks and broodlords, they also can counter/emp infestors which are lair tech. So ghosts can hard counter higher tech units than them, while not really being that high of a tech level. High temps can counter significantly lower tech tier units than them. So they're only helpful when the opponent is either choosing to use the lower tech tier (And how many terrans do anything other than MMMghost? MMMghost is pretty low tech level, 0 BCs or Thors) or you've limited them to that lower tech tier somehow. So in order for high temps to be a useful spellcaster you need to be ahead of your opponent in tech or they need to be going for a low tech army. While on the other hand ghosts are HOW you limit your opponent to low tech stuff against zerg and well... emp is kinda good against everything toss has. A lower tier unit hard countering a higher tier unit even at a 1.65 to 1 level is ridiculously cost efficient compared to what the other races have to do to counter high tech options. And the ability to cut the life total of a good chunk of units effectively in half AND take away energy at the same time instantly when the opponent's only option is an AOE spell of the same radius and less maximum damage that does damage over time and can be moved out of fairly early to make the ability do even less damage? Yeah... you're right, that sounds 100% balanced.
Stop talking about different techs cuz its retarded . Thors tech 3 get countered by zealot tech 1 HERP DERP IMBA IMBA.
Are you serious? I sure hope not :S
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@Rye, You still ignore the fact that EMP is in no way harder to pull off. A gold player who is able to storm and micro, while you can't just shows that those players are better than you, end off.
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On November 10 2011 05:28 Cornix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 22:06 rEalGuapo wrote:Well, Ghosts kill every Zerg unit as much as Infestors and HTs do, just the other way round, while fungal and Storm is great vs low HP units, Snipe is good vs units with a lot of hp+armor. Also you forgot about Infested Terrans wich are basically Marines for only the cost of energy. So: Ghosts - Good vs Casters, big units, can cloak, can launch a nuclear freaking missile (not that it matters in over 0.1% of the games, still awesome though Infestors - good vs units that rely on mobility, low HP units, air, great harras(Fungal and Infested Terrans, whatever you please), can burrow move HTs - Good vs every caster but Ghosts, low/middlish hp units, slow units. can merge to form Archon. So you see? ever caster has his own strengths and weaknesses. Yes, you're right, every caster does have their own strengths and weaknesses.. but here's the problem. 1) High temp... Tech tier 3. Storm could be considered tech tier 3.5 since you have to research it from a tech tier 3 building. But even then let's ignore the 3.5... high temp with storm is just a tier 3 unit. 2) Ghost. Tech tier 2. And how much research do you need to be able to emp/snipe? Right. High temp, the expensive tech tier 3 unit is the counter to what? Small bio units like marines and marauders in PvT, zerglings banelings and hydra in PvZ? So pretty much the researched tech tier 3 unit can counter tech tier 1s pretty well. That seems fair. Now let's look at what ghosts 'counter'. Hive tech. Ultralisks and broodlords, they also can counter/emp infestors which are lair tech. So ghosts can hard counter higher tech units than them, while not really being that high of a tech level. High temps can counter significantly lower tech tier units than them. So they're only helpful when the opponent is either choosing to use the lower tech tier (And how many terrans do anything other than MMMghost? MMMghost is pretty low tech level, 0 BCs or Thors) or you've limited them to that lower tech tier somehow. So in order for high temps to be a useful spellcaster you need to be ahead of your opponent in tech or they need to be going for a low tech army. While on the other hand ghosts are HOW you limit your opponent to low tech stuff against zerg and well... emp is kinda good against everything toss has. A lower tier unit hard countering a higher tier unit even at a 1.65 to 1 level is ridiculously cost efficient compared to what the other races have to do to counter high tech options. And the ability to cut the life total of a good chunk of units effectively in half AND take away energy at the same time instantly when the opponent's only option is an AOE spell of the same radius and less maximum damage that does damage over time and can be moved out of fairly early to make the ability do even less damage? Yeah... you're right, that sounds 100% balanced.
You'll lose the "Tier" argument any day. Zerglings beat Thors, Infestors beat Battlecruisers, Zealots beat vikings, Stalkers beat Hellions. Do we see how fragile this Tier argument is? Let's suppose that an army with no T3 units should always lose to an army with T3 units. Medivacs would be considered Tier 3, and any decent bioball has a few of those thrown in. Are you really going to make the argument that a Terran bioball just flat out wins to a colossus or storm protoss ball without medivac support?
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On November 10 2011 05:19 dgwow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 21:44 IgnE wrote:
Even if the auto-matchmaking system gives you 50% wins in all 3 matchups, it's not fun to win 50% of your mirror, 60+% of tvz and feel hopeless going into tvp, knowing that you have to win before he gets out collosus and HTs.
Cheaper upgrades make upgrades faster. Anyone who "does math" and says that the upgrades are still the same length have no real concept of how the game actually works. Upgrades are rarely, except in special builds, hit at a certain time, all the time, at the expense of other basic macro priorities. They are typically fit into the builds by using extra accumulated gas/minerals that would have been used to tech somewhere else/add more production/set up an expansion/gear up for an attack/defense. When you have cheaper upgrades, its much easier to accumulate the required resources in the normal course of macro and hence makes it easier to fit in earlier in builds. In empirical practice, cheaper means faster, on average, across all players and games. That said, I would be fine with the upgrade buff if the emp nerf weren't so bad.
I'd almost rather have KA back in the game than have to nerf emp. I like the shield upgrade idea reducing emp damage to shields.
The emp nerf effectively kills early ghost builds which depended on doing cost effective damage to shields/sentry energy. Terrans have one less pressure build to use, allowing protoss to either macro up more easily, or use their more powerful 2 base timings. This also makes it more dangerous for terrans to take an early third, which they now need even more in order to get out more ghosts to deal with the protoss deathball.
This is EXACTLY what protoss needed, a bio ball with 2 or more ghosts in a timing attack than can a-move and easily emp the toss and win is kind of ridiculous, just like the 1-1-1. I also think snipe ranged needs to be nerfed a bit. Remember, the strengths of terran are positioning, micro and multitasking. These changes just make terran more reliant on that, which suits the game, don't you think?
How is positioning a strength of Terran in TvP when tanks are not viable (not talking about cheesy 1-1-1 allins, in mean in longer games tanks are crap vs P). I am confused by your positioning remark...
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Its just Protoss players who think they're better than their ladder rankings suggest because of GSL Code S distribution.
How do you not notice how ridiculous that is?
I mean I dont hate Protoss or something, far from it but that is just stupid and wrong.
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On November 10 2011 05:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:20 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:11 Tweleve wrote:On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. where do you come up with this crap Did I say something that is wrong? Yeah, I'll bold and underline it for you. Then show him one statistic/results/anything that prove him wrong? While you are at it, stop being a smartass too. His whole post is nonsensical, to the point that it shouldn't even need to be addressed. Responding to it seriously would be lending credibility to something that should be able to be dismissed out-of-hand. But you could dismantle it by using three numbers: 1-1-1. You could also point out how EMP has been destroying Protosses all across the board (by Terrans who actually care to use the anti-Protoss unit properly), as ghosts can do far more damage than anything that Protoss can throw back at the Terran (far more than high templar or colossi). Immediately dealing thousands of damage and nullifying all Protoss spellcasters? Yeah that takes great skill. Furthermore, to suggest that Protoss don't need to micro or stay on top of their macro or scout, while Terrans aren't the ones known for turtling up, is absurd. So yes, Terran has been raping Zerg and Protoss in Code S for a very long time (which, don't forget, is the basis for racial balance). But that doesn't mean that Protoss is necessarily easy in the lower leagues, or that Terran has an excuse for not implementing winning strategies or better mechanics. The fact that I had to even write this out is ridiculous.
Did you somehow miss the part where he said only in high level? I know it's a little hard to see since it in line 1, but come on.
You make it like low level Terran players are worse than low level Protoss players. Do you have any statistic/result to back up for that? The fact they are both in low level means that they can't execute their stuffs right, either macro or micro. It means with clumsy execution in low level, Protoss has better chance to defeat the Terran in low level. That what he means in low level.
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On November 10 2011 05:42 secretary bird wrote:
Its just Protoss players who think they're better than their ladder rankings suggest because of GSL Code S distribution.
How do you not notice how ridiculous that is?
I mean I dont hate Protoss or something, far from it but that is just stupid and wrong.
Stop trolling please.
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On November 10 2011 05:34 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:28 Cornix wrote:On November 08 2011 22:06 rEalGuapo wrote:Well, Ghosts kill every Zerg unit as much as Infestors and HTs do, just the other way round, while fungal and Storm is great vs low HP units, Snipe is good vs units with a lot of hp+armor. Also you forgot about Infested Terrans wich are basically Marines for only the cost of energy. So: Ghosts - Good vs Casters, big units, can cloak, can launch a nuclear freaking missile (not that it matters in over 0.1% of the games, still awesome though Infestors - good vs units that rely on mobility, low HP units, air, great harras(Fungal and Infested Terrans, whatever you please), can burrow move HTs - Good vs every caster but Ghosts, low/middlish hp units, slow units. can merge to form Archon. So you see? ever caster has his own strengths and weaknesses. Yes, you're right, every caster does have their own strengths and weaknesses.. but here's the problem. 1) High temp... Tech tier 3. Storm could be considered tech tier 3.5 since you have to research it from a tech tier 3 building. But even then let's ignore the 3.5... high temp with storm is just a tier 3 unit. 2) Ghost. Tech tier 2. And how much research do you need to be able to emp/snipe? Right. High temp, the expensive tech tier 3 unit is the counter to what? Small bio units like marines and marauders in PvT, zerglings banelings and hydra in PvZ? So pretty much the researched tech tier 3 unit can counter tech tier 1s pretty well. That seems fair. Now let's look at what ghosts 'counter'. Hive tech. Ultralisks and broodlords, they also can counter/emp infestors which are lair tech. So ghosts can hard counter higher tech units than them, while not really being that high of a tech level. High temps can counter significantly lower tech tier units than them. So they're only helpful when the opponent is either choosing to use the lower tech tier (And how many terrans do anything other than MMMghost? MMMghost is pretty low tech level, 0 BCs or Thors) or you've limited them to that lower tech tier somehow. So in order for high temps to be a useful spellcaster you need to be ahead of your opponent in tech or they need to be going for a low tech army. While on the other hand ghosts are HOW you limit your opponent to low tech stuff against zerg and well... emp is kinda good against everything toss has. A lower tier unit hard countering a higher tier unit even at a 1.65 to 1 level is ridiculously cost efficient compared to what the other races have to do to counter high tech options. And the ability to cut the life total of a good chunk of units effectively in half AND take away energy at the same time instantly when the opponent's only option is an AOE spell of the same radius and less maximum damage that does damage over time and can be moved out of fairly early to make the ability do even less damage? Yeah... you're right, that sounds 100% balanced. Stop talking about different techs cuz its retarded . Thors tech 3 get countered by zealot tech 1 HERP DERP IMBA IMBA. Are you serious? I sure hope not :S
Reading comprehension.
How many zealots do you need to kill a thor? How many zealots do you need to kill 6 thors? How many zealots do you need to kill a thor that's being repaired by 4 scvs? By 8 scvs? The crucial sentence you seem to have missed is this one "A lower tier unit hard countering a higher tier unit even at a 1.65 to 1 level is ridiculously cost efficient compared to what the other races have to do to counter high tech options." You want to throw 2 zealots at a thor and see who wins?
As a second thought let's do a comparison of tier 2 units. To do a straight up comparison against the zerg units that people complain about ghosts for... zerg t3. Protoss has immortals off of the robotics bay, they counter ultralisks pretty well right? That's tier 2 to tier 3.. awesome. Ghosts are tier 2 to tier 3 and counter ultralisks pretty damn well too. Cool. That sounds about even.
Now... broodlords. They swoop into the map... oh the immortals are now worthless, awesome that's... cool. How bout those ghosts? ghosts are even MORE efficient against broodlords than ultras.
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On November 10 2011 05:44 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:20 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:11 Tweleve wrote:On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. where do you come up with this crap Did I say something that is wrong? Yeah, I'll bold and underline it for you. Then show him one statistic/results/anything that prove him wrong? While you are at it, stop being a smartass too. His whole post is nonsensical, to the point that it shouldn't even need to be addressed. Responding to it seriously would be lending credibility to something that should be able to be dismissed out-of-hand. But you could dismantle it by using three numbers: 1-1-1. You could also point out how EMP has been destroying Protosses all across the board (by Terrans who actually care to use the anti-Protoss unit properly), as ghosts can do far more damage than anything that Protoss can throw back at the Terran (far more than high templar or colossi). Immediately dealing thousands of damage and nullifying all Protoss spellcasters? Yeah that takes great skill. Furthermore, to suggest that Protoss don't need to micro or stay on top of their macro or scout, while Terrans aren't the ones known for turtling up, is absurd. So yes, Terran has been raping Zerg and Protoss in Code S for a very long time (which, don't forget, is the basis for racial balance). But that doesn't mean that Protoss is necessarily easy in the lower leagues, or that Terran has an excuse for not implementing winning strategies or better mechanics. The fact that I had to even write this out is ridiculous. Did you somehow miss the part where he said only in high level? I know it's a little hard to see since it in line 1, but come on. You make it like low level Terran players are worse than low level Protoss players. Do you have any statistic/result to back up for that? The fact they are both in low level means that they can't execute their stuffs right, either macro or micro. It means with clumsy execution in low level, Protoss has better chance to defeat the Terran in low level. That what he means in low level.
How is that relevant though. If you are at such a low level that you keep dieing against a 4gate in TvP for example, then you should never ever question the strength of the 4gate, but question the way you try to defend it. Same logic applies to defending 3rax and 6pool rushes.
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On November 10 2011 05:16 IlIlIlIl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:13 Juanald wrote:this patch is a step in the right direction its good to finaly see a nerf on EMP . i think a lot of the terrans dont understand how micro intensive it is splitting your units to avoid emp splash and theres really not many ways to see the ghost coming bcos of range / radius. On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. Oh pls protoss is just as hard if not the hardest race to micro give it a try sometime and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did... i thought this thread was to discuss the changes and not for venting Lol hardest to micro? Really? You talk about splitting to avoid emp have you tried splitting vs. storm? While stutter stepping? While target firing colossus with vikings? Go look at Sc2ranks and you'll see there is way way WAY more protoss than terran on ladder, and why do you think that would be?
Don't you dare destroying the P players bubble. They need to believe that playing P is harder at bronze-masters. Oh and don't bother asking them about why there are way more protoss players at ladder (sc2ranks.com). They'll just ignore your question because there's not a possible answer that doesn't involve admitting T is more mechanically demanding,
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EPT
