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On November 10 2011 05:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:17 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:11 Tweleve wrote:On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. where do you come up with this crap Did I say something that is wrong? Yeah, I'll bold and underline it for you. Deny it all you want, protoss is easier at gold-masters. Your pants are on fire.
There's a lot of fire on those pants. Someone needs to call the fire department asap.
On topic, I am very pleased with these changes. The EMP change was much needed, but I do very much like that the upgrade cost of shield was lowered. It had been useless before and it is worth considering now, particularly against zerg.
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So funny to read all those T QQ about that 0,5 nerf of the ghost, and some buffs of toss upgrades.
Terran isn't considered imba for many because of the fundamentals of the race, but because of all the all ins, that you CANT scout, because the ramp is blocked by 2 depots and 1 barrack.
The thing is that toss ain't like zerg who can get units very fast, if they ain't to greedy.
You 1 gate exp against a terran, and he 2 rax you, you are gonna have a really hard time defending it. You go 3 gate exp your changes of defending a 111 is very slim, cause of that late exp.
And a little off topic her: Idra go fuck yourself you little whiny bitch :S
User was warned for this post
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@dilla
My comments are not about difficulty to pull off. Its about both succeeding. if both succeed, which is generally what happens in gold, what happens? Toss tramples terran. Storms are brutal.
And by succeed i mean Terran emps 90% of toss army and P gets off 1 storm, for a gold terran i'd say that was a success.
I also only said gold would be hurt more than GM. Which is true. the larger radius meant i was more likely to emp HT's and not suffer storms. My emp accuracy didnt need to be great either.
What would happen if EMP was removed? (you could arguably even it out by removing storm even tho they arnt equal)
Terran wouldnt stand a chance against protoss. Terran NEEDS emp. Maybe not in its current form, maybe it needs tweaking, but we need it.
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On November 10 2011 05:45 Cornix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:34 Killcani wrote:On November 10 2011 05:28 Cornix wrote:On November 08 2011 22:06 rEalGuapo wrote:Well, Ghosts kill every Zerg unit as much as Infestors and HTs do, just the other way round, while fungal and Storm is great vs low HP units, Snipe is good vs units with a lot of hp+armor. Also you forgot about Infested Terrans wich are basically Marines for only the cost of energy. So: Ghosts - Good vs Casters, big units, can cloak, can launch a nuclear freaking missile (not that it matters in over 0.1% of the games, still awesome though  Infestors - good vs units that rely on mobility, low HP units, air, great harras(Fungal and Infested Terrans, whatever you please), can burrow move HTs - Good vs every caster but Ghosts, low/middlish hp units, slow units. can merge to form Archon. So you see? ever caster has his own strengths and weaknesses. Yes, you're right, every caster does have their own strengths and weaknesses.. but here's the problem. 1) High temp... Tech tier 3. Storm could be considered tech tier 3.5 since you have to research it from a tech tier 3 building. But even then let's ignore the 3.5... high temp with storm is just a tier 3 unit. 2) Ghost. Tech tier 2. And how much research do you need to be able to emp/snipe? Right. High temp, the expensive tech tier 3 unit is the counter to what? Small bio units like marines and marauders in PvT, zerglings banelings and hydra in PvZ? So pretty much the researched tech tier 3 unit can counter tech tier 1s pretty well. That seems fair. Now let's look at what ghosts 'counter'. Hive tech. Ultralisks and broodlords, they also can counter/emp infestors which are lair tech. So ghosts can hard counter higher tech units than them, while not really being that high of a tech level. High temps can counter significantly lower tech tier units than them. So they're only helpful when the opponent is either choosing to use the lower tech tier (And how many terrans do anything other than MMMghost? MMMghost is pretty low tech level, 0 BCs or Thors) or you've limited them to that lower tech tier somehow. So in order for high temps to be a useful spellcaster you need to be ahead of your opponent in tech or they need to be going for a low tech army. While on the other hand ghosts are HOW you limit your opponent to low tech stuff against zerg and well... emp is kinda good against everything toss has. A lower tier unit hard countering a higher tier unit even at a 1.65 to 1 level is ridiculously cost efficient compared to what the other races have to do to counter high tech options. And the ability to cut the life total of a good chunk of units effectively in half AND take away energy at the same time instantly when the opponent's only option is an AOE spell of the same radius and less maximum damage that does damage over time and can be moved out of fairly early to make the ability do even less damage? Yeah... you're right, that sounds 100% balanced. Stop talking about different techs cuz its retarded . Thors tech 3 get countered by zealot tech 1 HERP DERP IMBA IMBA. Are you serious? I sure hope not :S Reading comprehension. How many zealots do you need to kill a thor? How many zealots do you need to kill 6 thors? How many zealots do you need to kill a thor that's being repaired by 4 scvs? By 8 scvs? The crucial sentence you seem to have missed is this one "A lower tier unit hard countering a higher tier unit even at a 1.65 to 1 level is ridiculously cost efficient compared to what the other races have to do to counter high tech options." You want to throw 2 zealots at a thor and see who wins? As a second thought let's do a comparison of tier 2 units. To do a straight up comparison against the zerg units that people complain about ghosts for... zerg t3. Protoss has immortals off of the robotics bay, they counter ultralisks pretty well right? That's tier 2 to tier 3.. awesome. Ghosts are tier 2 to tier 3 and counter ultralisks pretty damn well too. Cool. That sounds about even. Now... broodlords. They swoop into the map... oh the immortals are now worthless, awesome that's... cool. How bout those ghosts? ghosts are even MORE efficient against broodlords than ultras.
I am amazed you actually believe that a higher tech unit should automatically counter all lower tech units from opposing races.
This is not required for the game to be balanced. The game is more complex then that. Your given scenarios are vague and actually do not say anything about balance.
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On November 10 2011 04:37 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:26 Alzadar wrote:On November 10 2011 04:13 bLo0d wrote:
The problem with the forge patch imo is that protoss upgrades are meant to be slightly more expensive since they apply to a wider variety of units. Basically u only really need 3/0/3 to be sufficient in late game as protoss. Shields, to be honest, are just taking the unit to the next level. Its not like +3shields and +3 armor = +3 armor for terran. Terran as well needs 3/3 and in some cases +2 on air. Zerg need +3 melee and/or range and +3 armor as well as possible +1/2/3 air. It is kind of a broken concept to buff forge ups because any viable tech switch protoss makes is supported by forge except stargate. While terran cannot just switch into mech lategame or go mass starports because those units will be behind on upgrades. Zerg cannot just go mass roach or mass muta after ultralisks with perfect efficiency because those units will most likely be less upgraded if the match is relatively even. Lastly, a bit off topic, what makes tvp a bit difficult for terran is the fact that there is no lategame unit such as the broodlord or the colosus to build up to. Bcs are of course not all that great. So you are forced as terran to stay bio and fight massive aoe with it. Why all the hate for BattleCruisers? Just don't let the Protoss feedback them and you're all set. You do know they have only 6 Range right ? How am i supposed to not get them feedbacked while still attacking Protoss units ? Not to mention 1 costs 400/300 . For 400/300 i get other stuff that would just wipe the floor with BC's. . And if quote me build Ghosts then explain me how am i supposed to Get Ghosts , BC , Upgrade ( and probably a buttload of other stuff that needs Gas ) before i'm on at least 8 Gas ? And in lategame you can't just switch into BC's they get demolished by 3-3 Stalkers if they aren't 3-3 themselves not to mention building them takes for 90 Seconds thats ages . No reasonable Protoss will give me enough time to produce BC's in suffient numbers before i get overrun by a buttload of gateway units + some support. They take 6 supply so while they build thats 6 supply i don't have.
You can just EMP all your BC's before you go into Battle...
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On November 10 2011 05:47 diLLa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:44 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 05:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:20 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:11 Tweleve wrote:On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. where do you come up with this crap Did I say something that is wrong? Yeah, I'll bold and underline it for you. Then show him one statistic/results/anything that prove him wrong? While you are at it, stop being a smartass too. His whole post is nonsensical, to the point that it shouldn't even need to be addressed. Responding to it seriously would be lending credibility to something that should be able to be dismissed out-of-hand. But you could dismantle it by using three numbers: 1-1-1. You could also point out how EMP has been destroying Protosses all across the board (by Terrans who actually care to use the anti-Protoss unit properly), as ghosts can do far more damage than anything that Protoss can throw back at the Terran (far more than high templar or colossi). Immediately dealing thousands of damage and nullifying all Protoss spellcasters? Yeah that takes great skill. Furthermore, to suggest that Protoss don't need to micro or stay on top of their macro or scout, while Terrans aren't the ones known for turtling up, is absurd. So yes, Terran has been raping Zerg and Protoss in Code S for a very long time (which, don't forget, is the basis for racial balance). But that doesn't mean that Protoss is necessarily easy in the lower leagues, or that Terran has an excuse for not implementing winning strategies or better mechanics. The fact that I had to even write this out is ridiculous. Did you somehow miss the part where he said only in high level? I know it's a little hard to see since it in line 1, but come on. You make it like low level Terran players are worse than low level Protoss players. Do you have any statistic/result to back up for that? The fact they are both in low level means that they can't execute their stuffs right, either macro or micro. It means with clumsy execution in low level, Protoss has better chance to defeat the Terran in low level. That what he means in low level. How is that relevant though. If you are at such a low level that you keep dieing against a 4gate in TvP for example, then you should never ever question the strength of the 4gate, but question the way you try to defend it. Same logic applies to defending 3rax and 6pool rushes.
Because with clumsy execution from both side, it's easier to execute 4 gate than to defend against 4 gate for example. I can word it like this too: If you are at such a low level that you keep failing 4 gate in TvP for example, then you should never ever question the strength of turtle terran, but question the way you try to execute it.
See, the thing is, as he said, in low level, Terran has to scout and be able to read Protoss build fine. If Terran is able to read 4gate is coming, then he has no trouble defending it. Mean while, at the same level, Protoss who goes 4gate only blindly applies his strat and don't need to learn how to scout and read build. That's just one example of stuffs.
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On November 10 2011 05:59 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 04:37 s3rp wrote:On November 10 2011 04:26 Alzadar wrote:On November 10 2011 04:13 bLo0d wrote:
The problem with the forge patch imo is that protoss upgrades are meant to be slightly more expensive since they apply to a wider variety of units. Basically u only really need 3/0/3 to be sufficient in late game as protoss. Shields, to be honest, are just taking the unit to the next level. Its not like +3shields and +3 armor = +3 armor for terran. Terran as well needs 3/3 and in some cases +2 on air. Zerg need +3 melee and/or range and +3 armor as well as possible +1/2/3 air. It is kind of a broken concept to buff forge ups because any viable tech switch protoss makes is supported by forge except stargate. While terran cannot just switch into mech lategame or go mass starports because those units will be behind on upgrades. Zerg cannot just go mass roach or mass muta after ultralisks with perfect efficiency because those units will most likely be less upgraded if the match is relatively even. Lastly, a bit off topic, what makes tvp a bit difficult for terran is the fact that there is no lategame unit such as the broodlord or the colosus to build up to. Bcs are of course not all that great. So you are forced as terran to stay bio and fight massive aoe with it. Why all the hate for BattleCruisers? Just don't let the Protoss feedback them and you're all set. You do know they have only 6 Range right ? How am i supposed to not get them feedbacked while still attacking Protoss units ? Not to mention 1 costs 400/300 . For 400/300 i get other stuff that would just wipe the floor with BC's. . And if quote me build Ghosts then explain me how am i supposed to Get Ghosts , BC , Upgrade ( and probably a buttload of other stuff that needs Gas ) before i'm on at least 8 Gas ? And in lategame you can't just switch into BC's they get demolished by 3-3 Stalkers if they aren't 3-3 themselves not to mention building them takes for 90 Seconds thats ages . No reasonable Protoss will give me enough time to produce BC's in suffient numbers before i get overrun by a buttload of gateway units + some support. They take 6 supply so while they build thats 6 supply i don't have. You can just EMP all your BC's before you go into Battle...
And still lose because they don't deal damage fast enough.
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On November 10 2011 05:44 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:20 canikizu wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 10 2011 05:14 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:11 Tweleve wrote:On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. where do you come up with this crap Did I say something that is wrong? Yeah, I'll bold and underline it for you. Then show him one statistic/results/anything that prove him wrong? While you are at it, stop being a smartass too. His whole post is nonsensical, to the point that it shouldn't even need to be addressed. Responding to it seriously would be lending credibility to something that should be able to be dismissed out-of-hand. But you could dismantle it by using three numbers: 1-1-1. You could also point out how EMP has been destroying Protosses all across the board (by Terrans who actually care to use the anti-Protoss unit properly), as ghosts can do far more damage than anything that Protoss can throw back at the Terran (far more than high templar or colossi). Immediately dealing thousands of damage and nullifying all Protoss spellcasters? Yeah that takes great skill. Furthermore, to suggest that Protoss don't need to micro or stay on top of their macro or scout, while Terrans aren't the ones known for turtling up, is absurd. So yes, Terran has been raping Zerg and Protoss in Code S for a very long time (which, don't forget, is the basis for racial balance). But that doesn't mean that Protoss is necessarily easy in the lower leagues, or that Terran has an excuse for not implementing winning strategies or better mechanics. The fact that I had to even write this out is ridiculous. Did you somehow miss the part where he said only in high level? I know it's a little hard to see since it in line 1, but come on. You make it like low level Terran players are worse than low level Protoss players. Do you have any statistic/result to back up for that? The fact they are both in low level means that they can't execute their stuffs right, either macro or micro. It means with clumsy execution in low level, Protoss has better chance to defeat the Terran in low level. That what he means in low level.
At the lower levels (gold, platinum, diamond, etc.), Terran is still more than capable of doing 1-1-1 and using ghosts effectively. I've seen it. And hell, if I can use storms, Terrans can use EMPs. EMPs are far easier to pull off, and they do much more damage.
He's the one who said that Terran is a nightmare to play at the lower levels because they require much higher mechanics than Protoss, not me. I never said that Terran players are worse. That doesn't mean that Terran is absolved of learning how to improve or play the game though, just because he assumes that Terran is a harder race. Protoss macro is much harder than Terran (it's less forgiving, as you can't queue units and you need to warp-in off-screen, as opposed to typing 2AAAADDDD). The micro between the two races is more even. So for him to say that Terran is *sooo* much harder mechanically in every way than Protoss is laughable, especially when he gives no examples.
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On November 10 2011 05:56 Rye. wrote:
@dilla
My comments are not about difficulty to pull off. Its about both succeeding. if both succeed, which is generally what happens in gold, what happens? Toss tramples terran. Storms are brutal.
And by succeed i mean Terran emps 90% of toss army and P gets off 1 storm, for a gold terran i'd say that was a success.
I also only said gold would be hurt more than GM. Which is true. the larger radius meant i was more likely to emp HT's and not suffer storms. My emp accuracy didnt need to be great either.
What would happen if EMP was removed? (you could arguably even it out by removing storm even tho they arnt equal)
Terran wouldnt stand a chance against protoss. Terran NEEDS emp. Maybe not in its current form, maybe it needs tweaking, but we need it.
What is this, I don't even...
You might want to consider actually put some effort into it then. What kind of argument is this: the larger radius meant i was more likely to emp HT's and not suffer storms. My emp accuracy didnt need to be great either.
That's the whole freaking point of the nerf... It was too easy to hit the emps rendering the HT's useless without even storming once. the radius now is the SAME as storm, meaning it's somewhat EQUALLY difficult to pull it off now. Actually the EMP is still INSTANT meaning it's still easier to do than storm. Yet you keep complaining how hard it is now to EMP, how the fuck do you think how it was for all protoss players before huh. Ghost is still a strong unit and practically a necessity in TvP, just like how protoss need at least 1 AoE asset in their army composition. MM is still cost efficient, and medivacs still heals the shit out of everything.
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I'm glad that all the protoss all-ins like 6-gate and immortal bust are not being looked at but the late-game of terran is being nerfed ><
God I hate how they balance this game around players with insane micro but the leagues like low-mid masters get screwed when they can't do that but their macro mechanics are solid. Really really hard when both sides are able to make huge armies and the terran player is expected to play x1000 better just to compete with the a-moving with a FF or a storm tossed here and there.
Late game TvP is broken. I don't see how the blizzard developer team does not see it and does not make changes.
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On November 10 2011 06:02 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:59 Dommk wrote:On November 10 2011 04:37 s3rp wrote:On November 10 2011 04:26 Alzadar wrote:On November 10 2011 04:13 bLo0d wrote:
The problem with the forge patch imo is that protoss upgrades are meant to be slightly more expensive since they apply to a wider variety of units. Basically u only really need 3/0/3 to be sufficient in late game as protoss. Shields, to be honest, are just taking the unit to the next level. Its not like +3shields and +3 armor = +3 armor for terran. Terran as well needs 3/3 and in some cases +2 on air. Zerg need +3 melee and/or range and +3 armor as well as possible +1/2/3 air. It is kind of a broken concept to buff forge ups because any viable tech switch protoss makes is supported by forge except stargate. While terran cannot just switch into mech lategame or go mass starports because those units will be behind on upgrades. Zerg cannot just go mass roach or mass muta after ultralisks with perfect efficiency because those units will most likely be less upgraded if the match is relatively even. Lastly, a bit off topic, what makes tvp a bit difficult for terran is the fact that there is no lategame unit such as the broodlord or the colosus to build up to. Bcs are of course not all that great. So you are forced as terran to stay bio and fight massive aoe with it. Why all the hate for BattleCruisers? Just don't let the Protoss feedback them and you're all set. You do know they have only 6 Range right ? How am i supposed to not get them feedbacked while still attacking Protoss units ? Not to mention 1 costs 400/300 . For 400/300 i get other stuff that would just wipe the floor with BC's. . And if quote me build Ghosts then explain me how am i supposed to Get Ghosts , BC , Upgrade ( and probably a buttload of other stuff that needs Gas ) before i'm on at least 8 Gas ? And in lategame you can't just switch into BC's they get demolished by 3-3 Stalkers if they aren't 3-3 themselves not to mention building them takes for 90 Seconds thats ages . No reasonable Protoss will give me enough time to produce BC's in suffient numbers before i get overrun by a buttload of gateway units + some support. They take 6 supply so while they build thats 6 supply i don't have. You can just EMP all your BC's before you go into Battle... And still lose because they don't deal damage fast enough.
Wrong, unless Protoss has VRs, otherwise pure stalkers can't kill BCs fast enough, all you need is marauders to stim and snipe stalkers. I've lost to BCs even mass stalkers and HTs before and they're goddamn strong, just don't understand why Terran refuse to switch tech actively.
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On November 10 2011 06:06 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 06:02 s3rp wrote:On November 10 2011 05:59 Dommk wrote:On November 10 2011 04:37 s3rp wrote:On November 10 2011 04:26 Alzadar wrote:On November 10 2011 04:13 bLo0d wrote:
The problem with the forge patch imo is that protoss upgrades are meant to be slightly more expensive since they apply to a wider variety of units. Basically u only really need 3/0/3 to be sufficient in late game as protoss. Shields, to be honest, are just taking the unit to the next level. Its not like +3shields and +3 armor = +3 armor for terran. Terran as well needs 3/3 and in some cases +2 on air. Zerg need +3 melee and/or range and +3 armor as well as possible +1/2/3 air. It is kind of a broken concept to buff forge ups because any viable tech switch protoss makes is supported by forge except stargate. While terran cannot just switch into mech lategame or go mass starports because those units will be behind on upgrades. Zerg cannot just go mass roach or mass muta after ultralisks with perfect efficiency because those units will most likely be less upgraded if the match is relatively even. Lastly, a bit off topic, what makes tvp a bit difficult for terran is the fact that there is no lategame unit such as the broodlord or the colosus to build up to. Bcs are of course not all that great. So you are forced as terran to stay bio and fight massive aoe with it. Why all the hate for BattleCruisers? Just don't let the Protoss feedback them and you're all set. You do know they have only 6 Range right ? How am i supposed to not get them feedbacked while still attacking Protoss units ? Not to mention 1 costs 400/300 . For 400/300 i get other stuff that would just wipe the floor with BC's. . And if quote me build Ghosts then explain me how am i supposed to Get Ghosts , BC , Upgrade ( and probably a buttload of other stuff that needs Gas ) before i'm on at least 8 Gas ? And in lategame you can't just switch into BC's they get demolished by 3-3 Stalkers if they aren't 3-3 themselves not to mention building them takes for 90 Seconds thats ages . No reasonable Protoss will give me enough time to produce BC's in suffient numbers before i get overrun by a buttload of gateway units + some support. They take 6 supply so while they build thats 6 supply i don't have. You can just EMP all your BC's before you go into Battle... And still lose because they don't deal damage fast enough. Wrong, unless Protoss has VRs, otherwise pure stalkers can't kill BCs fast enough, all you need is marauders to stim and snipe stalkers. I've lost to BCs even mass stalkers and HTs before and they're goddamn strong, just don't understand why Terran refuse to switch tech actively.
Sounds more like you suck then anything quite frankly ... BC's are only strong on at least equal upgrades i don't know how you can allow a Terran to ever get there. 2-3 Base Push and a Terran teching to BC's just dies. or loses so much that he can't really recover. BC's take ages to get to escpecially upgrades. On 3-3 they can be pretty strong but honestly when does this happen. In my TvP's i never get that much time.
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On November 10 2011 05:48 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:16 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:13 Juanald wrote:this patch is a step in the right direction its good to finaly see a nerf on EMP . i think a lot of the terrans dont understand how micro intensive it is splitting your units to avoid emp splash and theres really not many ways to see the ghost coming bcos of range / radius. On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. Oh pls protoss is just as hard if not the hardest race to micro give it a try sometime and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did... i thought this thread was to discuss the changes and not for venting Lol hardest to micro? Really? You talk about splitting to avoid emp have you tried splitting vs. storm? While stutter stepping? While target firing colossus with vikings? Go look at Sc2ranks and you'll see there is way way WAY more protoss than terran on ladder, and why do you think that would be? Don't you dare destroying the P players bubble. They need to believe that playing P is harder at bronze-masters. Oh and don't bother asking them about why there are way more protoss players at ladder (sc2ranks.com). They'll just ignore your question because there's not a possible answer that doesn't involve admitting T is more mechanically demanding,
Can we at least agree that it takes almost no micro to win with Zerg?
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I think the people who say: "Just built 2 more ghosts" are seriously underestimating the change. Range 2 to 1.5 doesn't seem like an extreme deal but let's do the math:
Area of a circle = pi*radius²
radius=2 => 3,14*2² = 12,56
radius=1,5 => 3,14*1,5² = 7,07
7,07/12,56 = 0,5629 = 56,29%
So, the area of the new EMP is 56,29% of the old area, which is a decrease of 43,71%!!! That means you need 43,71% more ghosts.
I don't say that this change will make P imba!!! The change might be needed, but the change is quite huge especially with the additional upgrade buff.
Also, the change was too early. The GSL format has JUST been changed. Before the format change it was nearly impossible to kick terrans out of Code S, even if they sucked. So maybe terran dominance in GSL Code S was due to format and metagame reasons.
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On November 10 2011 06:09 FaKeSC2 wrote:
I think the people who say: "Just built 2 more ghosts" are seriously underestimating the change. Range 2 to 1.5 doesn't seem like an extreme deal but let's do the math:
Area of a circle = pi*radius²
radius=2 => 3,14*2² = 12,56
radius=1,5 => 3,14*1,5² = 7,07
7,07/12,56 = 0,5629 = 56,29%
So, the area of the new EMP is 56,29% of the old area, which is a decrease of 43,71%!!! That means you need 43,71% more ghosts.
I don't say that this change will make P imba!!! The change might be needed, but the change is quite huge especially with the additional upgrade buff.
Also, the change was too early. The GSL format has JUST been changed. Before the format change it was nearly impossible to kick terrans out of Code S, even if they sucked. So maybe terran dominance in GSL Code S was due to format and metagame reasons.
I don't think you realize that all this does is make EMP the same size as storm.
And storm received this exact same nerf a while ago. Protoss players got over it.
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On November 10 2011 06:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 05:48 petro1987 wrote:On November 10 2011 05:16 IlIlIlIl wrote:On November 10 2011 05:13 Juanald wrote:this patch is a step in the right direction its good to finaly see a nerf on EMP . i think a lot of the terrans dont understand how micro intensive it is splitting your units to avoid emp splash and theres really not many ways to see the ghost coming bcos of range / radius. On November 10 2011 05:03 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Protoss players need to realize that Terran is only really good at super high levels. Below grandmaster league, it's an absolute nightmare to play. you need to be way better than the protoss player mechanically to win games. You have to have better multitasking + better micro all while keeping on top of your macro, whereas the protoss player basically can just focus on defending and creating a deathball. It's up to the terran player to scout, it's up to the terran player to harass, it's up to the terran player to micro better (way harder to use different groups of units as terran compared to toss. toss can basically just make a huge ball of units and be ok.) etc. Oh pls protoss is just as hard if not the hardest race to micro give it a try sometime and see if you dont come to the same conclusion i did... i thought this thread was to discuss the changes and not for venting Lol hardest to micro? Really? You talk about splitting to avoid emp have you tried splitting vs. storm? While stutter stepping? While target firing colossus with vikings? Go look at Sc2ranks and you'll see there is way way WAY more protoss than terran on ladder, and why do you think that would be? Don't you dare destroying the P players bubble. They need to believe that playing P is harder at bronze-masters. Oh and don't bother asking them about why there are way more protoss players at ladder (sc2ranks.com). They'll just ignore your question because there's not a possible answer that doesn't involve admitting T is more mechanically demanding, Can we at least agree that it takes almost no micro to win with Zerg?
Ok. I'll give you that. xD. Just joking btw.
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On November 10 2011 06:09 FaKeSC2 wrote:
I think the people who say: "Just built 2 more ghosts" are seriously underestimating the change. Range 2 to 1.5 doesn't seem like an extreme deal but let's do the math:
Area of a circle = pi*radius²
radius=2 => 3,14*2² = 12,56
radius=1,5 => 3,14*1,5² = 7,07
7,07/12,56 = 0,5629 = 56,29%
So, the area of the new EMP is 56,29% of the old area, which is a decrease of 43,71%!!! That means you need 43,71% more ghosts.
I don't say that this change will make P imba!!! The change might be needed, but the change is quite huge especially with the additional upgrade buff.
Also, the change was too early. The GSL format has JUST been changed. Before the format change it was nearly impossible to kick terrans out of Code S, even if they sucked. So maybe terran dominance in GSL Code S was due to format and metagame reasons.
EMP now has the exact same radius as storm - nevertheless you'd need to nerf the range to 9 and introduce an upgrade to make it "even" -_-
GCPL + Show Spoiler +I've just seen Kas stomp Mana into the ground with a standard 3 rax all-in vs expansion play. People fail to realize that despite all the oh so terrible T-nerfs, T still has all of their extremely strong all-ins at their disposal to get some quick wins after a loss streak. Seriously, one day of protoss victories and one year of terran dominance doesn't count anything anymore, or WTF is happening right now?
Fun fact for the upgrades: a stimmed marauder (0-0) beats a 3-3-3 stalker; yes, that's how amazing protoss-upgrades are
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On November 10 2011 06:09 FaKeSC2 wrote:
I think the people who say: "Just built 2 more ghosts" are seriously underestimating the change. Range 2 to 1.5 doesn't seem like an extreme deal but let's do the math:
Area of a circle = pi*radius²
radius=2 => 3,14*2² = 12,56
radius=1,5 => 3,14*1,5² = 7,07
7,07/12,56 = 0,5629 = 56,29%
So, the area of the new EMP is 56,29% of the old area, which is a decrease of 43,71%!!! That means you need 43,71% more ghosts.
I don't say that this change will make P imba!!! The change might be needed, but the change is quite huge especially with the additional upgrade buff.
Also, the change was too early. The GSL format has JUST been changed. Before the format change it was nearly impossible to kick terrans out of Code S, even if they sucked. So maybe terran dominance in GSL Code S was due to format and metagame reasons.
It is indeed huge but the radius for storm has been 1.5 for ages now and it's still a really good spell. EMP will still be really good.
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On November 10 2011 06:14 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 06:09 FaKeSC2 wrote:
I think the people who say: "Just built 2 more ghosts" are seriously underestimating the change. Range 2 to 1.5 doesn't seem like an extreme deal but let's do the math:
Area of a circle = pi*radius²
radius=2 => 3,14*2² = 12,56
radius=1,5 => 3,14*1,5² = 7,07
7,07/12,56 = 0,5629 = 56,29%
So, the area of the new EMP is 56,29% of the old area, which is a decrease of 43,71%!!! That means you need 43,71% more ghosts.
I don't say that this change will make P imba!!! The change might be needed, but the change is quite huge especially with the additional upgrade buff.
Also, the change was too early. The GSL format has JUST been changed. Before the format change it was nearly impossible to kick terrans out of Code S, even if they sucked. So maybe terran dominance in GSL Code S was due to format and metagame reasons. EMP now has the exact same radius as storm - nevertheless you'd need to nerf the range to 9 and introduce an upgrade to make it "even" -_- GCPL + Show Spoiler +I've just seen Kas stomp Mana into the ground with a standard 3 rax all-in vs expansion play. People fail to realize that despite all the oh so terrible T-nerfs, T still has all of their extremely strong all-ins at their disposal to get some quick wins after a loss streak. Seriously, one day of protoss victories and one year of terran dominance doesn't count anything anymore, or WTF is happening right now?
Since when is balance about 1 terran unit vs 1 protoss unit? That's like saying: "Uuuh HTs can morph into Archons! Why can't my ghosts turn into huge Robots?"
Just ASSUME!!! that T and P were totally balanced, but ghosts would be stronger than HTs. Would that be a problem? It's about the overall balance of the races.
Once again, I do NOT say that the nerf wasn't needed. I'm just saying that the nerf was a big one and it was too early because we don't know if the problem in Code S is a balance or a metagame/format problem.
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On November 10 2011 06:17 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 06:09 FaKeSC2 wrote:
I think the people who say: "Just built 2 more ghosts" are seriously underestimating the change. Range 2 to 1.5 doesn't seem like an extreme deal but let's do the math:
Area of a circle = pi*radius²
radius=2 => 3,14*2² = 12,56
radius=1,5 => 3,14*1,5² = 7,07
7,07/12,56 = 0,5629 = 56,29%
So, the area of the new EMP is 56,29% of the old area, which is a decrease of 43,71%!!! That means you need 43,71% more ghosts.
I don't say that this change will make P imba!!! The change might be needed, but the change is quite huge especially with the additional upgrade buff.
Also, the change was too early. The GSL format has JUST been changed. Before the format change it was nearly impossible to kick terrans out of Code S, even if they sucked. So maybe terran dominance in GSL Code S was due to format and metagame reasons. It is indeed huge but the radius for storm has been 1.5 for ages now and it's still a really good spell. EMP will still be really good.
I don't really have the right numbers, but people should take into acount that P units are generally larger than T units. 1.5 radius hits way more units of the T army then of a P army (in a ball, ofc).
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EPT
