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On October 30 2011 01:47 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 06:48 Wuster wrote:On October 29 2011 06:26 RedMosquito wrote:On October 29 2011 06:09 Wuster wrote:On October 29 2011 05:22 skyzzang wrote:
Just take a look at Julyzerg. What happend to him in SC2 ?
One of the reason why he's doing poorly is because
1) Skill ceiling for SC2 is very very very low compared to BW
2) Easy interface, Binding, Unit control
3) Zerg's specialty does not shine in SC2 as much as it did in BW, which was speed and flank.
aka, one sentry blocking the ramp.
People say this all the time (well 1 and 2). And yet, we still haven't seen an game where someone 1) hit every worker (non-zerg) 2) never got supply blocked 3) had perfect overlord/creep spread As for the interface, when I watch SC2, every major battle involves several scenes of miscontrol. Sure a lot of it is bad players keeping everything on one hot key, but things like: 1 - not target firing tanks 2 - not spreading colossus 3 - not keeping HT/Infestors from running to their death when they're out of energy these things keep happening, and are just the common examples (FF micro and unit spreading isn't really consistent either) The skill ceiling for SC2 is still a long way from being reached, despite the easier interface / infinite control groups / ect. As for July, it's pretty simple for a long time he played every matchup exactly as if it were still BW, and when he wasn't playing them as if it were BW, he certainly wasn't playing them with a high SC2 understanding. Since when do people think July isn't good at SC2?? I guess top 5 zerg in the world isn't good enough for some People have high standards for him, because he was recently removed from an OSL (even if it was a lucky draw as I've been told) and has shown that he can dominate through different periods of time. I don't think July is top-5 in the world right now, but I don't think he's an all-in newb as certain people like to claim (the thing I dislike about watching ESV is listening to Orb mock July every time a Zerg goes all-in) either. He's a work in progress and while he's good, he's not championship caliber. Watch his most recent ZvZs and tell me he knows how that match-up works for example. And while it can be unforgiving, it's not a total coinflip as Nestea, Losira, Sen or Dimaga have shown. You're either misunderstanding me or making things up on the spot. I never mock July, I praise him. I explain how July has said if he sees a protoss make a bad forge walloff with a pylon or cannon in front he will baneling bust it every time, and that's a good thing. I most often mention July when I see a zerg NOT doing this, because it pains me to see bad protosses get away with trash wall-offs just because the zerg decides to macro instead of taking the free win with the bane bust. Sorry if you thought I was bashing July, but please understand it was the complete opposite. He's a truly fantastic player who has earned his place in esports over the past decade. Hell, he's the guy that invented muta harass in Brood War (at least in the form it is in today).
Shark invented Muta stacking and the micro involved, July just popularized it though cuz he was so damn good.
[/nitpick]
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Honestly, as an SC2 player I can see exactly where the BW guys are coming from. Let's not kid ourselves, watch any stream of the BW leagues on TL, the game itself is MUCH more exciting. SC2 is huge army clashing with huge army in a 5 second flash. BW has a much more epic feel with battles raging across multiple screens. I played more SC1 than I should have in middle school and high school but never played 1v1s or iccup, just Zero Clutter and Evolves, and still competitive BW is much more exciting to watch IMO.
The only thing I hope for is that these BW pros revolutionize SC2 and start bringing that epic feel to it. But maybe SC2 is just the inferior game and is destined for 1a death ball vs 1a deathball ;\
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If a bunch of B Teamers and underachieving A Teamers switch to a Kespa SC2, then that's fine by me. But Flash, Fantasy, Sea, Light, Bogus, Stork, Bisu, JangBi, Snow, Movie, Horang2, Jaedong, Effort, Hydra, Zero, Neo.g_Soulkey, Killer, etc. better stay in BW! These players (and other notables - I can't list them all) turn BW into an art form. E-Sports would be hurt if they stopped playing BW and moved to SC2.
If too many B Teamers move though, then the future of BW is in even more doubt. Hopefully proleague salaries continue to be strong.
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On October 30 2011 01:41 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 01:37 Oktyabr wrote:Wow, just wow. Something to take note of here is just how *long* they were stuck in platinum. You mean because ladders were locked :p
No no you dont understand, BW players are obviously overhyped and thus took a long time getting out of plat. duh, its not like they're comparable to sc2 players after all!
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I wonder if they'll entertain the idea of using SC2BW, if only for a portion of whatever league forms. Sure, it's not exactly the same (e.g. mutas can't "Chinese Triangle" scourge) but it'd be entertaining at the very least.
If DotA had pro tournaments, I don't see why SC2BW can't, either... unless Blizzard completely refuses to support it.
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On October 30 2011 00:01 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 23:49 ACrow wrote:On October 29 2011 23:20 fabiano wrote:
This is really sad.
The amount of SC2 fans who know no shit about BW or esports come here and say things like Rinnegan5 is far superior than nice SC2 fans like ColdLava... you bad SC2 fans give horrible image of the scene, stop being unreasonably dumb.
This thread is derailed big time. You know that this is SC2 section of TL right? So in fact it's BW fans coming to SC2 forum preaching how good BW is and how bad SC2 is and that everyone that didn't follow BW should shut up. Again, I don't get what all the fuss is about, why not just cheer for your BW idols if they should decide to make the switch? Bw is not going anywhere, you'll still be able to play and all... You can be sure as hell that I will cheer for Bisu and co. I might even switch to SC2 IF they revolutionize the game as we know now.
My sweet fuck that would be legendary. Protoss especially is in dire need of guidance, (tho MLG was a nice breath of fresh air) and it also is the race which I think BW pros would be really comfortable with considering SC2 PvP is like 75% micro. I'd be a huge Bisu fan boy if he was in SC2 for sure.
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On October 30 2011 01:50 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 01:41 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 30 2011 01:37 Oktyabr wrote:Wow, just wow. Something to take note of here is just how *long* they were stuck in platinum. You mean because ladders were locked :p No no you dont understand, BW players are obviously overhyped and thus took a long time getting out of plat. duh, its not like they're comparable to sc2 players after all!
No, you don't understand. They were in platinum until the teams upgraded their equipment.
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On October 30 2011 01:47 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 01:46 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 30 2011 01:46 VPCursed wrote:On October 30 2011 01:44 raf3776 wrote:How did you get info that these were BW pros? no 1 is capable of pulling out high masters at like 80% with no SC2 exp..If anything they're smurfs. That's also just hypothetical. I'm pretty sure people who were godly at BW and had master hands and keyboard skills could do it.  no, i dont care if you're flash. Your going to get destroyed not knowing the current meta game in korea. period.
How long does it take to listen to someone say "Well, people build banelings in TvZ these days"?
Edit: And if that doesn't help, how long will it take to watch pro VODs?
If you're in a team house and you're a Korean pro-BW gamer, not very long at all.
And think of it this, most people in D/D-/E categories can hit diamond (friend is keyboard rank and high Diamond).
So no, I totally think they'd crush people.
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On October 30 2011 01:51 andrea20 wrote:
I wonder if they'll entertain the idea of using SC2BW, if only for a portion of whatever league forms. Sure, it's not exactly the same (e.g. mutas can't "Chinese Triangle" scourge) but it'd be entertaining at the very least.
If DotA had pro tournaments, I don't see why SC2BW can't, either... unless Blizzard completely refuses to support it.
I'm not sure if the game would be balanced using the sc2 engine. I haven't got to play around with the mod very much, I'd love it if it was actually good, but easy to use dragoons and reavers seems broken to me
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United States7639 Posts
On October 30 2011 01:30 omgbbq2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 00:12 seraphe wrote:On October 29 2011 23:52 Rinnegan5 wrote:
I am sorry if I came across abit harsh. I believe you guys if you say BW was amazing but I seriously think for Esports and SC2 in particular it would be amazing if both the BW and SC2 merged. I think foreign fans would be even more excited to see these players coming. Yes the BW scene would suffer but the SC2 scene would probably double in being more amazing. There are a few fans left for BW outside of Korea but majority of current Esport fans would rather watch SC2 and the best players in the world(as seen at Blizzcon). In short..I want Esports to grow and sometimes another game suffers from that. I'd rather look at the big picture and see Esports grow all over the world instead of only being amazing in Korea. The "growth of esports" argument is completely fail. How is it relevant to our interests at all? Soccer is more popular in the world than American football. American football players also make far more money than soccer players in America, hence why soccer has a hard time growing in America. Why go pro in one sport when going pro in another pays so much better? Therefore, for the good of soccer, and for the good of global sports, American football should die out so that the youth of America can focus on the sport that's popular in the rest of the world, and not the one that's only played in 1 country. Because obviously the one played in only 1 country doesn't fit your criteria of "sport." Sports have to be international, right? Try explaining that to American football fans. Because I'm sure they care more about "the growth of sports" internationally than they do about the game they love. I don't give a shit about esports, not if it comes to the detriment of the game I support. Esports expanding globally means nothing if I can't enjoy it. Sure, it's selfish. But this is the entertainment industry. I have no obligation or desire to support anything that doesn't entertain me. If watching the BW pros switch is actually worth entertainment value, then so be it. That's great. Just don't force these terrible arguments on us like "you should be happy because esports is growing", when many of us could care less. It's not about esports. It's about BW. this is indeed very selfish and therefore justice prevails. if you cling on to bw forever, you will not only hinder the growth of sc2, but the growth of esports as a whole. you have to realize that you are the minority, and the majority would want the push to make sc2 and esports move forward. i hope that in time, you will understand this is not about your own personal interests and gains.
lol bro. I'm not fighting against esports. I hope esports grows and prospers. I'm fighting against the weak argument that because "it's for the good of esports," we should automatically have to be happy, even if it comes at the expense of the game we love. The only thing worse than people shoving comments like "bw is dying" and "all your pros should switch over now" down our throats is saying that we shouldn't even be upset, because it's for the good of esports.
It's also remarkably presumptive of you to deem that the existence of BW hinders the growth of SC2. Like you're all so quick to point out, SC2 has done phenomenally well internationally. Only in Korea has it lacked momentum and popularity, but that's of its own accord, for the most part unrelated to BW's existence. It's not like Koreans don't attend SC2 events because they're too busy attending BW ones. It's because they're just not interested. In general, the Korean public as a whole is just more interested in pop culture than in esports lately. Getting rid of the already established popular game that's been a large part of Korean youth culture for the last decade in exchange for a new, less popular game? How does that help esports at all? And if you don't care about the Korean scene because it's just one small country, then the point is moot. SC2 is doing well internationally already, so BW's existence has no effect on it either way.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50196 Posts
On October 30 2011 01:48 FiWiFaKi wrote:
November 1st 2000-September 17th 2011
My passion - RIP <3
you do realize that there will be BW in the next season of PL right?
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Russian Federation3 Posts
How did you get info that these were BW pros?
just guessed?
matchhistory from only october
huge jump from plat/gold to masters
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On October 30 2011 01:53 Vehemus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 01:50 TheAntZ wrote:On October 30 2011 01:41 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 30 2011 01:37 Oktyabr wrote:Wow, just wow. Something to take note of here is just how *long* they were stuck in platinum. You mean because ladders were locked :p No no you dont understand, BW players are obviously overhyped and thus took a long time getting out of plat. duh, its not like they're comparable to sc2 players after all! No, you don't understand. They were in platinum until the teams upgraded their equipment.
I'm sorry, i thought i was being pretty clearly sarcastic/mocking with that post, but apparently its hard to convey that without a voice
And think of it this, most people in D/D-/E categories can hit diamond (friend is keyboard rank and high Diamond).
I keep hearing this kinda shit and it pisses me off. I managed to hit C- on iccup with toss, D+ with zerg, but i cant break into diamond with any race in sc2. Its ridiculous
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50196 Posts
On October 30 2011 01:56 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +And think of it this, most people in D/D-/E categories can hit diamond (friend is keyboard rank and high Diamond). I keep hearing this kinda shit and it pisses me off. I managed to hit C- on iccup with toss, D+ with zerg, but i cant break into diamond with any race in sc2. Its ridiculous
so you're saying that the 2 games that we played since waaaay back last year,you haven't improved at all? lol.
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On October 30 2011 01:56 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 01:53 Vehemus wrote:On October 30 2011 01:50 TheAntZ wrote:On October 30 2011 01:41 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 30 2011 01:37 Oktyabr wrote:Wow, just wow. Something to take note of here is just how *long* they were stuck in platinum. You mean because ladders were locked :p No no you dont understand, BW players are obviously overhyped and thus took a long time getting out of plat. duh, its not like they're comparable to sc2 players after all! No, you don't understand. They were in platinum until the teams upgraded their equipment. I'm sorry, i thought i was being pretty clearly sarcastic/mocking with that post, but apparently its hard to convey that without a voice Show nested quote +And think of it this, most people in D/D-/E categories can hit diamond (friend is keyboard rank and high Diamond). I keep hearing this kinda shit and it pisses me off. I managed to hit C- on iccup with toss, D+ with zerg, but i cant break into diamond with any race in sc2. Its ridiculous
I struggle to keep D- and D on iccup and I made Diamond in SC2. It's simple APM math for me: I can't keep up with BW but I'm okay enough with SC2 mechanics to chill in low Diamond.
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On October 30 2011 01:56 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 01:53 Vehemus wrote:On October 30 2011 01:50 TheAntZ wrote:On October 30 2011 01:41 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 30 2011 01:37 Oktyabr wrote:Wow, just wow. Something to take note of here is just how *long* they were stuck in platinum. You mean because ladders were locked :p No no you dont understand, BW players are obviously overhyped and thus took a long time getting out of plat. duh, its not like they're comparable to sc2 players after all! No, you don't understand. They were in platinum until the teams upgraded their equipment. I'm sorry, i thought i was being pretty clearly sarcastic/mocking with that post, but apparently its hard to convey that without a voice Show nested quote +And think of it this, most people in D/D-/E categories can hit diamond (friend is keyboard rank and high Diamond). I keep hearing this kinda shit and it pisses me off. I managed to hit C- on iccup with toss, D+ with zerg, but i cant break into diamond with any race in sc2. Its ridiculous
I was joking as well, attributing BW pro players' ascent into the Master league to their new computers and monitors instead of their skill.
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On October 30 2011 01:54 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 01:48 FiWiFaKi wrote:
November 1st 2000-September 17th 2011
My passion - RIP <3 you do realize that there will be BW in the next season of PL right?
Everyone has a way of measuring it. In my eyes broodwar has died already... If you have two teams left, and technically you still has a foreign base playing iccup too. Nah it's over.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50196 Posts
On October 30 2011 02:01 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 01:54 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 30 2011 01:48 FiWiFaKi wrote:
November 1st 2000-September 17th 2011
My passion - RIP <3 you do realize that there will be BW in the next season of PL right? Everyone has a way of measuring it. In my eyes broodwar has died already... If you have two teams left, and technically you still has a foreign base playing iccup too. Nah it's over.
all 8 teams are playing BW,lol you losing your passion is just silly,wtf? enjoy this season like its your last don't quit now.
if you keep worrying about the future the present is lost.
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In my eyes it's gonna be a very interesting BW season. Will JangBi and Fantasy finally win another Gold and be the first since Jaedong and Flash to have duals? Will Stork return to glory, or is the eldest member of the Dragons too far past his prime? Is Effort gonna be back like that year off was nothing? Will Bisu ever win an OSL? Can ZerO and Soulkey use Queens well enough to truly revolutionize ZvT? Will Snow become the Protoss Bonjwa he is destined to be? Stats has no chin?
I'm hyped as hell. Forget you if you don't want to watch BW next season.
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On October 29 2011 05:48 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:45 ReturnStroke wrote:
Pretty exciting and sad at the same time. I would hate to see BW die or be hurt, but I can't hide my excitement for someone like Jaedong/Flash/Bisu playing this little game. Little game? Isn't SC2 already bigger then brood war? I think it is.
The "Little game" was sarcastic. I'm an SC2 player ^_^
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EPT
