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On October 29 2011 07:38 Gann1 wrote:WC4 will play the part of SC3. Ironic because WC3 was the original target of BW "elitists" before SC2, and history will repeat itself with SC2 and WC4 
Nah, I guess they learned their thing. Furthermore it's more value to keep WC and SC seperate games as they are.
WC4 will definitly have it's hero-stuff, while SC3 will not. 100% sure.
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IEG is done, which is sad because they were a big proponent of getting the foreign community involved in BW.
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On October 29 2011 08:05 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 08:02 Sandermatt wrote:On October 29 2011 07:59 Gann1 wrote:On October 29 2011 07:46 Wafflelisk wrote:So wait, Flash is switching over? So, is BW completely dead? I hope not. I mean, I watch and play SC2 more, but mostly because it's easier for an English speaker to follow and the community is larger. BW is still a better game, and I'd be sad to see pro-BW die.  Despite all the experts in this thread, it's all conjecture. We won't know for sure until the next season of proleague starts, most likely. It's slated for early-mid November I think, so we'll know for sure what's happening soon. In case it starts with SC2 I really hope there will be english commentators. I think they would miss a big oppurtunity if there weren't. That would depend on if MBC, OGN, IEG, and Kespa are willing to get English language commentators for Proleague.
Whhhaaat? Of course they are. They gotta get in on that GOM money! cha-ching!
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On October 29 2011 08:04 awesomo0O wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:34 Doomgiver wrote:On October 29 2011 07:28 figq wrote:Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...:prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (61) 60% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (40) 40% 101 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will...: (Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
that poll is awfully biased. It lacks all the reasonable options. here you go Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (20) 54% prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (9) 24% Will do alright but not be anything special, their skills dont translate (8) 22% 37 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will... (Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
(Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): Will do alright but not be anything special, their skills dont translate
all those 3 of those are incredibly extreme and once again show bias.
no 1 is going to argue A teamers have a chance to do good in SC2. But its arrogant to say all of them will surpass people like nestea/MVP and revolutionize the game.
Some might, some might fall off and accomplish nothing.
And on a side note.. Go away
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On October 29 2011 08:05 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 08:02 Sandermatt wrote:On October 29 2011 07:59 Gann1 wrote:On October 29 2011 07:46 Wafflelisk wrote:So wait, Flash is switching over? So, is BW completely dead? I hope not. I mean, I watch and play SC2 more, but mostly because it's easier for an English speaker to follow and the community is larger. BW is still a better game, and I'd be sad to see pro-BW die. Despite all the experts in this thread, it's all conjecture. We won't know for sure until the next season of proleague starts, most likely. It's slated for early-mid November I think, so we'll know for sure what's happening soon. In case it starts with SC2 I really hope there will be english commentators. I think they would miss a big oppurtunity if there weren't. That would depend on if MBC, OGN, IEG, and Kespa are willing to get English language commentators for Proleague.
I guess there are many commentators that would make that for free or nearly nothing. Of course it would be better if the commentators would be physically there, but if that isn't possible, they could just let them into the game over the internet and let them commentate from somewhere else.
The viewer numbers will surely be much larger with english commentaries.
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BW Champions, players A and B are also the top players at SC2 within their teams:
"We are practicing while watching GSL matches. If we start for real I think we'll be able to become top players soon".
Haha, somehow that makes me really happy.
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On October 29 2011 07:53 SkimGuy wrote:
Injured Flash would still probably shit on everyone in SC2 xd
An un-injured Flash playing any kind of game should be illegal, he should always be in a cast or some handicap to give others players a fighting chance.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm kidding I wanna see Flash well again and crushing nerds like Godzilla in Tokyo.
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On October 29 2011 08:03 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:58 Darth Caedus wrote:On October 29 2011 07:49 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 07:45 Darth Caedus wrote:On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Thank you for properly saying what I was going to try to put into words far less eloquently. As SC2 gets older (years after the last expansion) I expect it to look very similar to BW now. It's just going to be a growing process. It sucks that BW fans have gone through it already and have to endure "worse" (really just less developed play) in SC2 for a while, but at some point a new game was going to be made. Nothing lasts forever. The two games are different to the point where one will never be like the other. It's just the game design. Whether you like one or the other is a matter of personal preferences, but I think it's safe to say that SC2 won't be "like" BW, because of how it's designed. Also, I'd also like to note that SC2 has a bustling e-sports scene and it's a game that's been intensely studied on a level that outmatches that of BW. I think it's safe to say that along with simpler mechanics/less bugs/smarter AI/technology the amount of time that it'll take to see what one can do in this game is going to be a lot faster than in BW. The main complaint that I was trying to respond to was that "worse players can win easily in SC2, not in BW". That is somewhat true right now, but it won't be in a few years when all units and timings are understood and safe builds are known. When people scout better and know all the correct responses the better players will win. Isn't that how BW is now and what most of the fans are mad about? In that respect, I expect SC2 to eventually reach the same place in terms of level of competition and balance that BW is at now. But I do agree that the game will look and feel different due to the AI and interface differences. But right now you can't comment on which game will be a better spectator experience because we do not yet know what good, developed SC2 play will look like. The most annoying part of this entire thread isn't that BW people are proud of their games state, they damn well should be. It's that they make the continued claim that BW has always been this way, which is a complete farce. Again, I implore anyone who really cares to go look up some very very early BW strats, videos, etc. You'll see the same homogeneous play, stupid cheesey strats, lack of safe builds, bad scouting, bad micro and bad macro you're seeing out of top SC2 play now. Then go look at year two, and year three, etc. You should be able to clearly watch the progression of the game. To sit here and spout that SC2 will never have that intricacy of play, because BW has it now after ten years, and SC2 doesn't after one, is so disingenuous it's stupid.
You can't compare 1 year old SC2 to 1 year old BW. SC2 built upon 10 years of professional BW, players knew how to properly play RTS from the very start whereas everything still had to be discovered in BW. The maps from very early BW didn't even have naturals
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Pool fixed, repost so ppl can vote it
Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (17) 55% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (7) 23% Will do alright but not be anything special, their skills dont translate(I'm a hater) (7) 23% 31 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will... (Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
(Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): Will do alright but not be anything special, their skills dont translate(I'm a hater)
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On October 29 2011 08:12 awesomo0O wrote:Pool fixed, repost so ppl can vote it Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (17) 55% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (7) 23% Will do alright but not be anything special, their skills dont translate(I'm a hater) (7) 23% 31 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will... (Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
(Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): Will do alright but not be anything special, their skills dont translate(I'm a hater)
no, go away. your poll is stupid.
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I'm actually really surprised this is happening already. Doesn't BW still get decent ratings at least, with pretty big crowds at finals, PL, etc?
I'm all for the switch to SC2, but I would've thought it would be a more gradual transition.
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On October 29 2011 08:11 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 08:03 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:58 Darth Caedus wrote:On October 29 2011 07:49 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 07:45 Darth Caedus wrote:On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Thank you for properly saying what I was going to try to put into words far less eloquently. As SC2 gets older (years after the last expansion) I expect it to look very similar to BW now. It's just going to be a growing process. It sucks that BW fans have gone through it already and have to endure "worse" (really just less developed play) in SC2 for a while, but at some point a new game was going to be made. Nothing lasts forever. The two games are different to the point where one will never be like the other. It's just the game design. Whether you like one or the other is a matter of personal preferences, but I think it's safe to say that SC2 won't be "like" BW, because of how it's designed. Also, I'd also like to note that SC2 has a bustling e-sports scene and it's a game that's been intensely studied on a level that outmatches that of BW. I think it's safe to say that along with simpler mechanics/less bugs/smarter AI/technology the amount of time that it'll take to see what one can do in this game is going to be a lot faster than in BW. The main complaint that I was trying to respond to was that "worse players can win easily in SC2, not in BW". That is somewhat true right now, but it won't be in a few years when all units and timings are understood and safe builds are known. When people scout better and know all the correct responses the better players will win. Isn't that how BW is now and what most of the fans are mad about? In that respect, I expect SC2 to eventually reach the same place in terms of level of competition and balance that BW is at now. But I do agree that the game will look and feel different due to the AI and interface differences. But right now you can't comment on which game will be a better spectator experience because we do not yet know what good, developed SC2 play will look like. The most annoying part of this entire thread isn't that BW people are proud of their games state, they damn well should be. It's that they make the continued claim that BW has always been this way, which is a complete farce. Again, I implore anyone who really cares to go look up some very very early BW strats, videos, etc. You'll see the same homogeneous play, stupid cheesey strats, lack of safe builds, bad scouting, bad micro and bad macro you're seeing out of top SC2 play now. Then go look at year two, and year three, etc. You should be able to clearly watch the progression of the game. To sit here and spout that SC2 will never have that intricacy of play, because BW has it now after ten years, and SC2 doesn't after one, is so disingenuous it's stupid. You can't compare 1 year old SC2 to 1 year old BW. SC2 built upon 10 years of professional BW, players knew how to properly play RTS from the very start whereas everything still had to be discovered in BW. The maps from very early BW didn't even have naturals
So we're not allowed to compare developments made in game play across the games, but BW people can just say that SC2 is inferior in design when SC2 is still very obviously developing?
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Damn, it's a real shame this is happening, and by "This" I'm responding to people saying BW is dying. Personally, I love both scenes and I wish they could just exist in parallel. While other people may say otherwise, like brood war needs to go, its old, etc, I don't think that is a right justification to see the game come to an end. I mean, on a general e-sports level, I think the ideal would be that good, competitive games stay, which are considered good & competitive through the test of time, while the ones that can't withstand that won't be considered a true e-sports professional game.
Lately, I've been investing some time into brood war, and its such an amazing game with a ridiculously high skill ceiling, which makes it so amazing to watch be played in competition. If Brood war dies, I hope people realize that (from my perspective anyways), it really makes e-sports out to be a some-what shallow "thing" that only moves on with the new games created by developers, and just thrives on the "new".
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On October 29 2011 08:19 Darth Caedus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 08:11 Ikonn wrote:On October 29 2011 08:03 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:58 Darth Caedus wrote:On October 29 2011 07:49 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 07:45 Darth Caedus wrote:On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:
[quote]
Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Thank you for properly saying what I was going to try to put into words far less eloquently. As SC2 gets older (years after the last expansion) I expect it to look very similar to BW now. It's just going to be a growing process. It sucks that BW fans have gone through it already and have to endure "worse" (really just less developed play) in SC2 for a while, but at some point a new game was going to be made. Nothing lasts forever. The two games are different to the point where one will never be like the other. It's just the game design. Whether you like one or the other is a matter of personal preferences, but I think it's safe to say that SC2 won't be "like" BW, because of how it's designed. Also, I'd also like to note that SC2 has a bustling e-sports scene and it's a game that's been intensely studied on a level that outmatches that of BW. I think it's safe to say that along with simpler mechanics/less bugs/smarter AI/technology the amount of time that it'll take to see what one can do in this game is going to be a lot faster than in BW. The main complaint that I was trying to respond to was that "worse players can win easily in SC2, not in BW". That is somewhat true right now, but it won't be in a few years when all units and timings are understood and safe builds are known. When people scout better and know all the correct responses the better players will win. Isn't that how BW is now and what most of the fans are mad about? In that respect, I expect SC2 to eventually reach the same place in terms of level of competition and balance that BW is at now. But I do agree that the game will look and feel different due to the AI and interface differences. But right now you can't comment on which game will be a better spectator experience because we do not yet know what good, developed SC2 play will look like. The most annoying part of this entire thread isn't that BW people are proud of their games state, they damn well should be. It's that they make the continued claim that BW has always been this way, which is a complete farce. Again, I implore anyone who really cares to go look up some very very early BW strats, videos, etc. You'll see the same homogeneous play, stupid cheesey strats, lack of safe builds, bad scouting, bad micro and bad macro you're seeing out of top SC2 play now. Then go look at year two, and year three, etc. You should be able to clearly watch the progression of the game. To sit here and spout that SC2 will never have that intricacy of play, because BW has it now after ten years, and SC2 doesn't after one, is so disingenuous it's stupid. You can't compare 1 year old SC2 to 1 year old BW. SC2 built upon 10 years of professional BW, players knew how to properly play RTS from the very start whereas everything still had to be discovered in BW. The maps from very early BW didn't even have naturals So we're not allowed to compare developments made in game play across the games, but BW people can just say that SC2 is inferior in design when SC2 is still very obviously developing?
That's not what I said at all
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i love it, more awesome players for my favorite game 
i played and loved BW as well from the beginning. but it's time to unite
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Brood War is not balanced, even now.
Starcraft 2 is not balanced
Brood War requires more mechanical skill. Macroing in sc2 is piss easy compared to BW, and if someone tries to deny this he's just bias or hasn't played bw
Starcraft 2 requires more tactical skill. Not to say that BW didn't as well, but it's basically the main skill required for sc2.
They are two different games, there is no real reason to discuss what will happen because only time will tell
Oh, and i'm happy to see the BW pros switch over!
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On October 29 2011 08:22 ManaO wrote:
Starcraft 2 requires more tactical skill.
How so?
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On October 29 2011 08:22 ManaO wrote:
Brood War is not balanced, even now.
Starcraft 2 is not balanced
Brood War requires more mechanical skill. Macroing in sc2 is piss easy compared to BW, and if someone tries to deny this he's just bias or hasn't played bw
Starcraft 2 requires more tactical skill. Not to say that BW didn't as well, but it's basically the main skill required for sc2.
They are two different games, there is no real reason to discuss what will happen because only time will tell
Oh, and i'm happy to see the BW pros switch over!
I'm just curious. Did you ever really follow BW, or are you just stating an uninformed opinion as fact?
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Time will tell how well they do. Super excited though! ^_^
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EPT
