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On October 29 2011 07:28 figq wrote:What do you think about this issue? I can say I'm undecided, either option seems possible to me at this point. Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...:prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (61) 60% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (40) 40% 101 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will...: (Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
Reference: "The Elephant in the Room"
People need to stop with there retarded "elephant in the room theory"
There will be players that come to this game with not a hint of RTS experience and will surpass everyone else. Why people have these fixations in there head about how everyone in SC2 is at an incredibly low level is very amusing, and incredibly frustrating... I hate to even try and make an argument for this.
oh, and the poll is very bias.
srsly?
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On October 29 2011 07:34 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:31 Gann1 wrote:On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:
And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. A decade? This is ACTIVISION Blizzard! 2 years after LotV, max. Unlikely. Blizzard has Project Titan and WarCraft 4 as a MINIMUM standing between it and SC3. That's if there is never a WoW2.
WC4 will play the part of SC3. Ironic because WC3 was the original target of BW "elitists" before SC2, and history will repeat itself with SC2 and WC4 
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holy shit, this is big news, i hope its true, if so it would be amazing
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On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3.
Yeah pretty much this.
Why is MVP so well known? Cuz he's good and has differentiated his play so well.
Starcraft isn't stale and i know there is way more to be done to even reach a skill ceiling. Polt's rediculous marine splitting to attack tanks is a perfect example of this.
But yes, the starcraft 2 engine doesn't allow macro to be as much of a factor in player skill...now they can show their "BW army control" off more. Deathballs may be good, but massive flanks are better
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On October 29 2011 07:38 Gann1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:34 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:31 Gann1 wrote:On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:
And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Edit: Sorry, my posting disappeared for some reason, and I posted the quote without text. Did the SC3 audience react similar to SC" like SCBW reacts to SC2? I haven't been into Esports before SC2, but I wonder, was it the same with WC3 and SC2? Did the WC3 audience react similar like the BW does now to the fact that the pro's switch over? A decade? This is ACTIVISION Blizzard! 2 years after LotV, max. Unlikely. Blizzard has Project Titan and WarCraft 4 as a MINIMUM standing between it and SC3. That's if there is never a WoW2. WC4 will play the part of SC3. Ironic because WC3 was the original target of BW "elitists" before SC2, and history will repeat itself with SC2 and WC4
Did the WC3 scene react to SC2 like SCBW reacts to SC2?
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On October 29 2011 07:39 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Yeah pretty much this. Why is MVP so well known? Cuz he's good and has differentiated his play so well. Starcraft isn't stale and i know there is way more to be done to even reach a skill ceiling. Polt's rediculous marine splitting to attack tanks is a perfect example of this. But yes, the starcraft 2 engine doesn't allow macro to be as much of a factor in player skill...now they can show their "BW army control" off more. Deathballs may be good, but massive flanks are better
This unless Browder makes a gigantic mistake and destroys the game, which scaes the hell out of me every time he speaks. *shudders*
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I don't want to see BW die, but I am certainly fascinated at what level these pros can push the game. I feel SC2 has a much different type of skill ceiling, which should be increased even harder with all of these new HoTS spell casters. As much as I would like SC2 to be more like BW, it doesn't seem to be going into that direction at all.
Whatever weird WC3micro/BWmacro/Dota-viperhooking mutant game we end up with... I can certainly say I'm curious to see it played at it's best.
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On October 29 2011 07:39 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Yeah pretty much this. Why is MVP so well known? Cuz he's good and has differentiated his play so well. Starcraft isn't stale and i know there is way more to be done to even reach a skill ceiling. Polt's rediculous marine splitting to attack tanks is a perfect example of this. But yes, the starcraft 2 engine doesn't allow macro to be as much of a factor in player skill...now they can show their "BW army control" off more. Deathballs may be good, but massive flanks are better
There is still room for better macro though. Players like Bomber somehow manage to get like 20-30 supply ahead even in mirror matches while no big battles happened yet.
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On October 29 2011 07:39 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Yeah pretty much this. Why is MVP so well known? Cuz he's good and has differentiated his play so well. Starcraft isn't stale and i know there is way more to be done to even reach a skill ceiling. Polt's rediculous marine splitting to attack tanks is a perfect example of this. But yes, the starcraft 2 engine doesn't allow macro to be as much of a factor in player skill...now they can show their "BW army control" off more. Deathballs may be good, but massive flanks are better
There is so much left to be learned with StarCraft 2 it's not even funny. No one macros perfect yet, no one micros perfect yet. Not MVP, not Nestea, no one. No one has figured out every use for every unit. No one has figured out every little crazy glitch and flaw in the engine yet.
The game is barely a year old. It's so amazingly frustrating when people expect it to have been figured out at the level that BW has been at this point.
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Ugh. This is so depressing.
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I feel like this coulddddd be good for sc2. As I feel sc2 players still arent playing correctly. Micro and macro isnt perfect and theres much more things that are possible. With HOTS possibly raising the micro extent this could be a much better thing than what were thinking
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On October 29 2011 07:38 Gann1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:34 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:31 Gann1 wrote:On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:
And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. A decade? This is ACTIVISION Blizzard! 2 years after LotV, max. Unlikely. Blizzard has Project Titan and WarCraft 4 as a MINIMUM standing between it and SC3. That's if there is never a WoW2. WC4 will play the part of SC3. Ironic because WC3 was the original target of BW "elitists" before SC2, and history will repeat itself with SC2 and WC4
Sad too, because WC4 will likely be nothing like SC2 (micro v. macro), and should be able to stand on it's own merits. Now, it could be a shit game, we'll never known until it's released...but something in Blizzard's track record makes me doubt it.
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On October 29 2011 07:36 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:28 figq wrote:What do you think about this issue? I can say I'm undecided, either option seems possible to me at this point. Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...:prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (61) 60% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (40) 40% 101 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will...: (Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
Reference: "The Elephant in the Room" People need to stop with there retarded "elephant in the room theory" There will be players that come to this game with not a hint of RTS experience and will surpass everyone else. Why people have these fixations in there head about how everyone in SC2 is at an incredibly low level is very amusing, and incredibly frustrating... I hate to even try and make an argument for this. oh, and the poll is very bias. srsly?
This. That article was absolutely retarded and there is no other word I can possibly think of to describe it with. At first, their were many praises of it, but then intrigue was bashed for an indefinite amount of posts.
Starcraft 2 is out and so many people are still stuck in brood war. I don't show hostilities towards the BW community, but this is one of the few games where people are trying so hard to inhibit change and stalling the death of the game itself. When a sequel comes out for practically any other game, people flock to it, but with Starcraft it's somehow different.
I expect a lot of harassment to come from the BW community that remains of the BW pros decide to switch to SC2. For one, I would absolutely LOVE to see BW skill in SC2 graphics in HD streams. 
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the idea that the skill ceiling isn't high enough in SC2 for great players to consistently dominateis totally bogus. The same players keep winning all the tournaments--if good players couldn't consistently beat worse ones, there's no way MVP and Nestea would dominate the way they have, DRG wouldn't be the GSTL monster he is, and the few elite foreigners wouldn't beat other foreigners as consistently as they do. But clearly, all that has happened. Hell, some players in some matchups have dominated so utterly that their win percentages are up there with the very best BW players at given matchups--Nestea had a ZvZ run that was every bit as dominant as BesT at his PvP peak.
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On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3.
Thank you for properly saying what I was going to try to put into words far less eloquently. As SC2 gets older (years after the last expansion) I expect it to look very similar to BW now. It's just going to be a growing process. It sucks that BW fans have gone through it already and have to endure "worse" (really just less developed play) in SC2 for a while, but at some point a new game was going to be made. Nothing lasts forever.
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Canada1061 Posts
So wait, Flash is switching over? So, is BW completely dead? I hope not. I mean, I watch and play SC2 more, but mostly because it's easier for an English speaker to follow and the community is larger. BW is still a better game, and I'd be sad to see pro-BW die. 
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On October 29 2011 07:30 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:26 kainzero wrote:On October 29 2011 06:55 lFrost wrote:
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw iirc there was a bnet attack where jaedong lost against a high level clan member (non-progamer) and was visibly pissed okay it was bnet and there was lag so he couldn't muta micro but still didn't flash lose to lomo and ssak to get eliminated from msl RO32? i wouldn't know if the equivalent happens in sc2 because i don't watch sc2 Virus almost beat NesTea last season, it was ridiculously close.
Virus is a legit professional. That's not even close to the same thing.
The same thing would be if some random ladder hero from MLG Providence open bracket comes out and beast MVP or Nestea on Championship Sunday.
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Absolute korean dominance coming up, foreign players wont stand a chance. If Flash, JD, Bisu ect. really dedicate themselves to play SCII then its game over pretty much. God i really hope they dont T.T
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On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3.
Agreed. People need to stfu about what's possible with SC2, as if they've figured out the game completely. Because I can guarantee A) You're not that smart B) You're not that good. C)You're not a psychic (actually I'm not so sure I can prove this last one)
Above poster mentions an example where even the developers didn't even know about what was possible with their units. Another one would be Dusty's little spiel of the unexpected use of creep spread during Kennigit's interview. With enough time this exceptional generation of progamers will find more and more intricacies within the game and show us just how complex it is.
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On October 29 2011 07:45 Darth Caedus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Thank you for properly saying what I was going to try to put into words far less eloquently. As SC2 gets older (years after the last expansion) I expect it to look very similar to BW now. It's just going to be a growing process. It sucks that BW fans have gone through it already and have to endure "worse" (really just less developed play) in SC2 for a while, but at some point a new game was going to be made. Nothing lasts forever.
The two games are different to the point where one will never be like the other. It's just the game design. Whether you like one or the other is a matter of personal preferences, but I think it's safe to say that SC2 won't be "like" BW, because of how it's designed.
Also, I'd also like to note that SC2 has a bustling e-sports scene and it's a game that's been intensely studied on a level that outmatches that of BW. I think it's safe to say that along with simpler mechanics/less bugs/smarter AI/technology the amount of time that it'll take to see what one can do in this game is going to be a lot faster than in BW.
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EPT
