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What do you think about this issue? I can say I'm undecided, either option seems possible to me at this point.
Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...:prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (61) 60% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (40) 40% 101 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will...: (Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
Reference: "The Elephant in the Room"
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On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw
This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it.
Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now.
A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3.
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On October 29 2011 06:23 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What did you expect seriously? That BW was going to last forever or that SC2 would have some unfriendly user interface or that it would be just as hard as BW?.. Sort of wishful thinking to be honest and as soon as SC2 announced it was going to eventually take over BW unless it was a massive failure..
Not that I don't respect BW or doubt that it was a great game but people who keep hating on SC2 just annoy me
And LOL at the guy saying it "will be insulting to see them play a less exciting and skillful game"... please get off your high horse
I think a lot of people were looking for starcraft 2 to feel like a proper transition from broodwar into something grander. Not for a shiny HD version of the game they loved but an evolution of it. Campaign aside ( that is a whole nother can of worms) it feels for many like starcraft 2 is related to broodwar but not properly connected. I can't and won't speak for everyone but I believe some fans would have embraced the game if they felt like it had embraced them first.
Given the technology we have today Blizzard could have made SC2 a more dynamic game than it is. Don't get me wrong I love it just like I have come to love BW but it is hard to ignore the faults the game has. A perfect game could probably not have been built but I think a larger majority would have been happier if yes starcraft 2 was harder amongst other things. I believe it would have been possible to keep many of the old units and introduce new ones which required a great deal of skill to master. For some it takes away the emotional investment in an esport if you feel like anyone could eventually be a champion.
SC2 is meant to be a mass marketed game so it needs to be casual friendly, Blizzard wasn't aiming for the happy accident that was SC. Nevertheless it was possible to them to create units that casual players could have fun with but that only masterful players could make truly shine. (the mothership was never even meant for competitive play but top players still learned how to abuse what tactical options it offered) As the game developed and was released I think a lot of diehard BW fans felt like Blizzard has just insulted them, taken something they cherished, ripped out part of it and sold what was left to strangers. the essence of what made BW a great game to them seemed to be being lost in the shuffle.
A happy medium could probably have been reached somewhere along the line if Blizzard was listening. While some fondly remember the intense satisfaction of getting a dragoon to just go where the fuck you wanted it to, in this day and age that bad of unit pathing would not be something that a game could include. For some, things like an easier to use interface, automine and MBS may have been ok if smartcasting, autosurround etc was left out and other difficult to master mechanics were put in. Having to fight the game less in some ways just to play it so top players could apply their skills to making the most of the units given to them would ( I think) have pleased a lot of fans. Or I could be wrong and no game would ever have been good enough to transition into IDK.
No comment on the hate part of your comment as I dislike when fans of either game break out the vitriol.
As for the insulting because it is less skillful thing lemme make an example of something that happened recently. August GSl finals had a bunch of show matches before it where players dicked around and had fun. The audience had some laughs, some players got to offrace, Losira got to dance terran units and it was for most a good time. None of the pro players on Sotg or Artosis or Sean could stand to really watch these games. They know it's for fun but as competitors or former competitors it hurts to see skilled players treating the game like well a game. To see top level SC 2 players messing around on stage is hard because when they look at those players they see only the potential they have to be great and the skills they have shown before. Most of the cast agreed it would have been better to have a serious showmatch before the finals with some decent money on the line. Maybe one game in the series would have been silly but otherwise it's srs bsns time and the fans get treated to a display of skill and not silliness.
I love starcraft 2 and I know it can be a better game than it currently is. I won't abandon it if it never changes into what I want but at the same time I can understand why some fans do not want to see players they value play a game that has as many flaws as wings of liberty currently does. There seems to be little enjoyment from their perspective in watching someone play a game that hasn't reached a point of stability to let transitioning players shine. It's going to hurt them the same way silly showmatches hurt Artosis, they know they can can get better entertainment and a better display of skill than what they would otherwise be seeing.
^* The above post is personal opinion based on my time spent on TL and should be taken with many grains of salt. Apologies for my long winded rambling.
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Foreign teams better start offering contracts to some top BW players.
I fear the foreign scene will slowly dwindle away after this trasnition. Foreign players are lazy, don't practice enough or have the talent of most Korean players now, what will happen when the flood gates open and pro BW teams eventually make the change full time to SC2.
Sadly if I find that foreign players can no longer keep up to their Korean counter parts I can see myself losing interest in the SC2 scene. All of my favourite players are Foreign, the rivalry that this community has made between the Koreans and foreign players have made (for me at least) the most exciting part of this scene. I love watching Idra or Stephano going up against a Korean player, knowing they have a chance at winning, I feel an attachement to these players.
I just don't wanna be stuck watching multiple versions of the NASL, where it's foreign player vs foreign player. I don't really get any enjoyment out of that, bad games etc etc.
I also don't really wanna watch the best of the best duke it out either. I have no attachement to any of the Korean players, besides maybe BoxeR (who unfortunatley would also not be able to keep up with our new pro's entering the scene) and therefore it would not be exciting for me even though the games would most likely be amazing.
Maybe i'm just being selfish, or maybe I am just one of those guys....
Does anyone else feel the same way?
I imagine this was the reason the foreign BW scene was so much smaller. No foreigner could compete, nobody to really cheer for, therefore only the die hard foreign BW fans had some type of connection to the players they were watching.
(I really don't know much about the BW scene and I do not mean any disrespect to anyone, so if i'm wrong about the last part of my post I apologize)
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2 things that came to mind when reading this.
1) omg the korean sc2 ladder must be scary if every bw pro is practicing on it.
2) the saddness of loosing bw proleagues, I'm a person that cant play this game, but i love watching it, and sc2 just doesnt compare in my opinion to the exciting games ive seen on bw. waiting till november just to have something like this happen. especially when we were expecting to see flash come back at full strength
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Canada13405 Posts
The amount of hate in this thread is crazy.
I'm excited for the possibilities in SC2 with the BW players switching over.
But its sad to see BW start on a seeming decline.
This being said nothing is in stone and no one knows if KeSPA will have 2 leagues one BW one SC2. We also don't know who is playing SC2. B team vs. A team switching? Who knows. Lets wait and see.
Also, stop the hate please the threads just going to get closed again.
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I feel sorry for all those who are excited about seeing BW pros switch (if they do), but have never even tried to experience the greatness of BW.
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On October 29 2011 07:26 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 06:55 lFrost wrote:
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw iirc there was a bnet attack where jaedong lost against a high level clan member (non-progamer) and was visibly pissed okay it was bnet and there was lag so he couldn't muta micro but still didn't flash lose to lomo and ssak to get eliminated from msl RO32? i wouldn't know if the equivalent happens in sc2 because i don't watch sc2
Virus almost beat NesTea last season, it was ridiculously close.
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On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
I completely agree with this. I rly hope blizzard keeps that in mind in future expansions. What would be awesome would be to but game speed at fastest instead of faster that way mid level players would maybe not be able to macro perfectly. I feel sad every time I see zergbong beat MVP
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If BW teams are seriously making a concerted effort to enter the SC2 scene with their current line-ups of top BW pros, things in the SC2 scene are going to get very interesting very quickly... I don't think anyone can deny the potential of these players and teams, especially considering the type of unparalleled rigorous training and discipline that they're famous for. These aren't just a few waves that are about to hit the SC2 scene. It's a fucking tsunami... O.O;;
Just as it seems like foreigners are closing the gap with the Koreans, it feels like it's about to burst wide open again.
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On October 29 2011 07:28 figq wrote:What do you think about this issue? I can say I'm undecided, either option seems possible to me at this point. Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...:prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (61) 60% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (40) 40% 101 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will...: (Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
Reference: "The Elephant in the Room"
That is one biased poll 
Anyways, I'm really excited about this. I haven't played SC2 for a long time and this is something that could get me playing again. I'll definitely keep up with the scene now.
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Reading this news I think its a miscalculation by whoever is behind the push to switch over. If I remember right a poll on fomos came out with a vast majority being either against SC2 or wanting a gradual switch, and I think this rush is going to alienate a lot of fans, which I lump myself into. The only ones left really following the BW scene are the hardcore and prematurely ending BW will strongly turn them off esports for a long time imo.
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On October 29 2011 07:22 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:16 Apollo_Shards wrote:
Cant want to see the Broodwar Protoss play SC2 Protoss. Oh god it will be amazing. i wonder what mantoss reach would think of new protoss. bw protoss is like a guerrilla and sc2 protoss is like a monkey with wings. only my opinion of course. (brute force to gimmicky spells) as for the future of sc2, i just hope blizzard try to change the core of the game like unit clumping and in depth micro potential battles (marine vs bane good, stalker vs marauder bad) instead of focusing on cool and flashy stuff for the viewers. you know, like how poeple complain transformers is horrible and is just an action flick...thats kind of how many of long time bw players feel about sc2. that way bw players can transition to sc2 along with all its fan base.
Yea I agree. I really hope they try to make it like SC1 protoss. I am very excited to see what they can do with blink stalkers and phoenixs. I am really hoping HoTS will give them some more power units.
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On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:
And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3.
A decade? This is ACTIVISION Blizzard! 2 years after LotV, max.
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I look forward to more BW players arriving in SC2. I hope it mixes up the top pro scene.
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On October 29 2011 07:28 figq wrote:What do you think about this issue? I can say I'm undecided, either option seems possible to me at this point. Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...:prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (61) 60% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (40) 40% 101 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will...: (Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
Reference: "The Elephant in the Room"
Where's the option for "Will do alright but not be anything special?"
Like after listening to FXO_Boss on F Slasher my idea kind of changed.
When Slasher asked if there Boss knew anything about BW pros playing, Boss had said many of the BW pros had been playing for a while and were nothing special in most cases.
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"A thread on BW switching to SC2?! Sounds to me like ideal nesting conditions for trolls."
*lifts floorboard*
"Yep.. yep. see that there?"
*holds black pellet and sniffs it*
"that there is troll dung.. looks to me you got 6 or 7 nesting here already. Gloaters by the look of it. Tell ya what.. I'll be back Monday with the appropriate gear and take care of yo problem."
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On October 29 2011 07:28 figq wrote:Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...:prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (61) 60% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (40) 40% 101 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will...: (Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
that poll is awfully biased. It lacks all the reasonable options.
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On October 29 2011 07:31 Gann1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:
And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. A decade? This is ACTIVISION Blizzard! 2 years after LotV, max.
Unlikely. Blizzard has Project Titan and WarCraft 4 as a MINIMUM standing between it and SC3. That's if there is never a WoW2.
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On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw
MVP and Nestea manage to differentiate themselves from inferior players just fine.
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EPT
