Look thats how the game is. When you truly enjoy something, it becomes part of yourself. Its the same as close relationships, love, and parents. When you know that what you are doing is so grand that nothing else in life can replace it, you know you will be devastated if that thing does happen to die. Because in the end, if something is a part of you and it dies... you die, too.
On October 29 2011 06:40 ShootingStars wrote: I don't understand people... NOTHING LAST FOREVER. NOT SC1, NOT SC2. There will be more games. NO ONE LIVES FOREVER. Flash can't play SC1 FOREVER until he is 60. HE HAS HIS LIFE. SC2 will DIE in the future for SC3. NOTHING LIVES FOREVER. -_-
Again. Let me emphasize. Your parents, relatives, friends also won't live forever. Are you not similarly sad and upset when they get sick and die?
I understand how BW fans feel, but I can't help but feel this was eventual and inevitable, and I find it hard to understand how some people didn't see it coming.
I'm not sure too many people were "caught blindsided". It doesn't change the fact that BW dying is still a pretty depressing thing for many, many diehard BW fans. Like I said above, even if a family member gets cancer and you know they are going to die eventually it doesn't make it not sad when the time does come.
Come on.... I don't even know what to post here. Comparin BW dying to a family member dying? If that's really how you feel then maybe you should check in with life. There is more to life than being a fanboy.
I'm happy the transition is coming because it's so annoying to keep hearing BW-fans complaining(out of jealousy) about how easy and boring SC2 is and always will be because "uuu BW is better and bigger in Korea". Nobody fucking cares! It's 2011 people! WAKE THE FUCK UP
On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote: i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
yeah exactly. im not sure if TBLS will dominate the scene because sc2 will not fully utilize all of their talents developed from bw, which is why it is such a waste if they were to switch over.. one of the reasons ppl say sc2 is an inferior game is because its more luck dependent and all-in/early attacks are extremely strong compared to bw. noobs can definitely take games off of pros with very little effort. how many times do you see idra lose to no-namers to this day who bunker rush him or do some other cheese. you will almost never see that happen to high level players in bw.
You use Idra, a guy who is notoriously bad at defending all-ins, as some kind of proof that cheesing is too strong? All in's rarely win high level matches any more tbh.
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw
On October 29 2011 06:30 Zanno wrote: why can't people just be happy about this
if you could increase viewership of e-sports from a sizable percent of a small fraction of the world, to a sizable percent of the entire world, wouldn't you want to jump on it? believe me, i fuckin' love brood war, but i feel like too many brood war fans have forgotten that the bottom line is that e-sports is about players making from being good at the game. if there's more money to be had in sc2, then they should transition into sc2. think of it this way - 5 years from now, if everyone plays their cards right, all top players could easily have salaries in the 1 million+ range in a scene with international sponsor backing and viewership.
this is perhaps the best possible timing for the transition to begin, because if all the s-class progamers provide their feedback during the sc2 beta, many of the major issues that the bw hardcore have with this game can eventually be resolved
i'm honestly shocked that we're still having arguments about the ui after all this time. it's become increasing clear even if the mechanical aspect of the game is not as difficult there is still a massive skill gap between the top 10 players in the world, and the top 100
what we really need to be rallying for is more micro intensive abilities. here's a really simple example - if the colossus laser swipes were slowed down so that you could dodge them like you can lurker spines, then microed marines would fare much better against colossus, whereas a-moved marines would die just as easily. this is just one example of something to improve micro potentional, and i could easily come up with a dozen of things like this, without adding a single new unit to the game
sc2 is the vehicle which can push starcraft from a national phenomenon to an international phenomenon, so instead of get bitter, we should focus on improving the game which has a greater long term potential for success, to the point where it's as good or better than its predecessor!
If SCII is the vehicle we have to drive for E-Sports to continue then I don't give a fuck about E-Sports.
BW is one of the best, if not the best, RTS I have ever played/seen.
If all of a sudden, I had to watch some new version of soccer in order for it to progress...I'm not watching the same game, so I don't care. Same applies here. To hell with "E-Sports", let me have Brood War please.
User was warned for this post
u can watch broodwar as much as u like, but not with the good players, cause the will play sc2^^
interesting news, I loook forward to an official announcement
On October 29 2011 06:40 ShootingStars wrote: I don't understand people... NOTHING LAST FOREVER. NOT SC1, NOT SC2. There will be more games. NO ONE LIVES FOREVER. Flash can't play SC1 FOREVER until he is 60. HE HAS HIS LIFE. SC2 will DIE in the future for SC3. NOTHING LIVES FOREVER. -_-
Again. Let me emphasize. Your parents, relatives, friends also won't live forever. Are you not similarly sad and upset when they get sick and die?
I understand how BW fans feel, but I can't help but feel this was eventual and inevitable, and I find it hard to understand how some people didn't see it coming.
I'm not sure too many people were "caught blindsided". It doesn't change the fact that BW dying is still a pretty depressing thing for many, many diehard BW fans. Like I said above, even if a family member gets cancer and you know they are going to die eventually it doesn't make it not sad when the time does come.
Come on.... I don't even know what to post here. Comparin BW dying to a family member dying? If that's really how you feel then maybe you should check in with life. There is more to life than being a fanboy.
I'm happy the transition is coming because it's so annoying to keep hearing BW-fans complaining(out of jealousy) about how easy and boring SC2 is and always will be because "uuu BW is better and bigger in Korea". Nobody fucking cares! It's 2011 people! WAKE THE FUCK UP
Regardless, it doesn't change the underlying point. BW dying IS something that makes people emotional. There really is a very, very deep passion for the game in so, so many BW fans.
Disappointed in your "check in with life" comment. BW is a pretty big portion of many peoples lives for alot of the BW vets on TL, in much the same way football might be a pretty important part of a collegiate players life. If he suddenly learned that football was being phased out to make way for "soccer" or even "football 2" I think that would be a pretty big deal, don't you. People usually take a pretty big hit when major hobbies are taken from them.
A bit off topic, but all of this reminds me a bit of when Quake 3 came out. Alot of the Q1 players (myself included) hated Q2 because its inferior mechanics and gameplay. When Q3 came out, alot of the Q1 players totally dominated the scene for quite sometime. It'll be interesting to see if the bw players can do the same once given time to adjust.
On October 29 2011 06:40 ShootingStars wrote: I don't understand people... NOTHING LAST FOREVER. NOT SC1, NOT SC2. There will be more games. NO ONE LIVES FOREVER. Flash can't play SC1 FOREVER until he is 60. HE HAS HIS LIFE. SC2 will DIE in the future for SC3. NOTHING LIVES FOREVER. -_-
Yeah, because if your family died you'd just be like "Oh well, it happens."
Steve Jobs lived his life KNOWING he would die, so he made everything the most of it.
Pretty terrible analogy, imo. Steve Jobs had A LOT of regret about being a shitty father and family man. I don't think he regretted being a...erm, jerk to say the least.. to his colleagues, employees, and friends.
About the OP: This sounds really interesting. I will remain on the skeptical side until there's some official announcements and such.
On October 29 2011 06:40 ShootingStars wrote: I don't understand people... NOTHING LAST FOREVER. NOT SC1, NOT SC2. There will be more games. NO ONE LIVES FOREVER. Flash can't play SC1 FOREVER until he is 60. HE HAS HIS LIFE. SC2 will DIE in the future for SC3. NOTHING LIVES FOREVER. -_-
Yeah, because if your family died you'd just be like "Oh well, it happens."
Steve Jobs lived his life KNOWING he would die, so he made everything the most of it.
On October 29 2011 06:40 ShootingStars wrote: I don't understand people... NOTHING LAST FOREVER. NOT SC1, NOT SC2. There will be more games. NO ONE LIVES FOREVER. Flash can't play SC1 FOREVER until he is 60. HE HAS HIS LIFE. SC2 will DIE in the future for SC3. NOTHING LIVES FOREVER. -_-
Again. Let me emphasize. Your parents, relatives, friends also won't live forever. Are you not similarly sad and upset when they get sick and die?
I understand how BW fans feel, but I can't help but feel this was eventual and inevitable, and I find it hard to understand how some people didn't see it coming.
I'm not sure too many people were "caught blindsided". It doesn't change the fact that BW dying is still a pretty depressing thing for many, many diehard BW fans. Like I said above, even if a family member gets cancer and you know they are going to die eventually it doesn't make it not sad when the time does come.
Come on.... I don't even know what to post here. Comparin BW dying to a family member dying? If that's really how you feel then maybe you should check in with life. There is more to life than being a fanboy.
I'm happy the transition is coming because it's so annoying to keep hearing BW-fans complaining(out of jealousy) about how easy and boring SC2 is and always will be because "uuu BW is better and bigger in Korea". Nobody fucking cares! It's 2011 people! WAKE THE FUCK UP
Regardless, it doesn't change the underlying point. BW dying IS something that makes people emotional. There really is a very, very deep passion for the game in so, so many BW fans.
Disappointed in your "check in with life" comment. BW is a pretty big portion of many peoples lives for alot of the BW vets on TL, in much the same way football might be a pretty important part of a collegiate players life. If he suddenly learned that football was being phased out to make way for "soccer" or even "football 2" I think that would be a pretty big deal, don't you. People usually take a pretty big hit when major hobbies are taken from them.
unfortunately the majority of ppl on this thread will never understand why bw fans are emotional because they know nothing about the game or the esports scene in korea that surrounds it. its pretty pointless arguing with these ppl. if their join date is in 2010 and 2011 they most likely have no real knowledge about bw at all - which is probably 85%+ of this site sadly
I can't wait until all the dust settles and we look back at this thread and say, "damn, we were some angry nerds back then; look at how awesome SC2 has become now!".
The BW teams practicing SC2 for pro-league signifies the slow transition into SC2. The eventual complete transition is inevitable. Thump your chests all you want, it WILL happen. The question is, do you see the glass half full or the glass half empty?
On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote: i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
yeah exactly. im not sure if TBLS will dominate the scene because sc2 will not fully utilize all of their talents developed from bw, which is why it is such a waste if they were to switch over.. one of the reasons ppl say sc2 is an inferior game is because its more luck dependent and all-in/early attacks are extremely strong compared to bw. noobs can definitely take games off of pros with very little effort. how many times do you see idra lose to no-namers to this day who bunker rush him or do some other cheese. you will almost never see that happen to high level players in bw.
You use Idra, a guy who is notoriously bad at defending all-ins, as some kind of proof that cheesing is too strong? All in's rarely win high level matches any more tbh.
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw
there's a simple reason for that
not too many people understand why standard play is standard play
standard play in brood war, is defined as such because it's almost totally cheese proof
standard play in sc2 does not yet exist, and will not exist for years. it took about three years in both starcraft and warcraft 3 for standard play to crystalize. eventually someone will figure out a build that is totally bullet-proof for each race, but until then, cheese will be stronger than it deserves to be
TvZ seems a lot closer to standard play than the other matchups, but still has a long, long way to go
right now starcraft 2 is the equivalent of if a terran bw player were to balls out marine-medic vs protoss 1 out every 3 games. eventually people figured out that's a risky build with some glaring hard counters and stopped using it, except for crazy bastards like upmagic. but there just hasn't been enough games played at s-class level yet to determine what openers are viable and what aren't
On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote: i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote: i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
yeah exactly. im not sure if TBLS will dominate the scene because sc2 will not fully utilize all of their talents developed from bw, which is why it is such a waste if they were to switch over.. one of the reasons ppl say sc2 is an inferior game is because its more luck dependent and all-in/early attacks are extremely strong compared to bw. noobs can definitely take games off of pros with very little effort. how many times do you see idra lose to no-namers to this day who bunker rush him or do some other cheese. you will almost never see that happen to high level players in bw.
You use Idra, a guy who is notoriously bad at defending all-ins, as some kind of proof that cheesing is too strong? All in's rarely win high level matches any more tbh.
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw
well there are alot (ALOT) fewer no namers in BW than in SC2. but if we are talking about players who aren't very good beating great players. look at the OSL RO16 jaedong lost to hyvaa and hyuk. thats pretty bad.
On October 29 2011 07:00 Bayyne wrote: I can't wait until all the dust settles and we look back at this thread and say, "damn, we were some angry nerds back then; look at how awesome SC2 has become now!".
The BW teams practicing SC2 for pro-league signifies the slow transition into SC2. The eventual complete transition is inevitable. Thump your chests all you want, it WILL happen. The question is, do you see the glass half full or the glass half empty?
i don't believe you're right about complete transition being inevitable, but if you are:
On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote: i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
yeah exactly. im not sure if TBLS will dominate the scene because sc2 will not fully utilize all of their talents developed from bw, which is why it is such a waste if they were to switch over.. one of the reasons ppl say sc2 is an inferior game is because its more luck dependent and all-in/early attacks are extremely strong compared to bw. noobs can definitely take games off of pros with very little effort. how many times do you see idra lose to no-namers to this day who bunker rush him or do some other cheese. you will almost never see that happen to high level players in bw.
You use Idra, a guy who is notoriously bad at defending all-ins, as some kind of proof that cheesing is too strong? All in's rarely win high level matches any more tbh.
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw
well there are alot (ALOT) fewer no namers in BW than in SC2. but if we are talking about players who aren't very good beating great players. look at the OSL RO16 jaedong lost to hyvaa and hyuk. thats pretty bad.
hyvaa hyuk are people who are considered a-team level because they are actually fielded out to play by their team in proleague matches. how often do you see someone b-team level or below (a no-namer who never gets fielded out) defeat jd? that is what i am talking about
On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote: i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
Finally someone smart in this thread.
Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago.
The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport.
On October 29 2011 04:27 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: Do me a favor and show me an sc2 game (or even a one minute clip) that has this kind of finesse and excitement.
Ah I have seen this video so many times over the years, and it still amazes me. I can only imagine what these players will bring to SC2 when their play appears in proleague.
Am I the only one who doesn't really find that video insanely impressive? I am impressed ofc that he can spider mine dodge + focus fire that well and in that many places but I'm not wow'd. Just more like "oh that's cool, I wish I could do that"
I see it as completely comparable to when a terran can micro a group of 10 marines and focus down 10 banelings while being attacked by zerglings. Yea it happens faster, but I get the same level of "wow" factor.
If you read my whole post you will see that I mention marine vs baeling micro. I say that it DOES has the same wow effect. But that's pretty much it. There isn't much else (micro wise) that is impressive in sc2 (yes I know there are some exceptions). All that impresses me is attack strategies and timings and decisions that players make.
BW on the other hand has these kinds of micro subtleties in all 9 MUs and it makes the game what it is (reavers, vultures, marine vs lurker, jd's 2 lings in a protoss main, hell probes, scourage, shuttles, corsairs, muta, defiler... omg I could go on forever). Macroing in BW is no longer an art. It has been turned into a science. Yet micro, will always be simply beautiful.
On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote: i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
yeah exactly. im not sure if TBLS will dominate the scene because sc2 will not fully utilize all of their talents developed from bw, which is why it is such a waste if they were to switch over.. one of the reasons ppl say sc2 is an inferior game is because its more luck dependent and all-in/early attacks are extremely strong compared to bw. noobs can definitely take games off of pros with very little effort. how many times do you see idra lose to no-namers to this day who bunker rush him or do some other cheese. you will almost never see that happen to high level players in bw.
You use Idra, a guy who is notoriously bad at defending all-ins, as some kind of proof that cheesing is too strong? All in's rarely win high level matches any more tbh.
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw
well there are alot (ALOT) fewer no namers in BW than in SC2. but if we are talking about players who aren't very good beating great players. look at the OSL RO16 jaedong lost to hyvaa and hyuk. thats pretty bad.
hyvaa hyuk are people who are considered a-team level because they are actually fielded out to play by their team in proleague matches. how often do you see someone b-team level or below (a no-namer who never gets fielded out) defeat jd? that is what i am talking about
never because you never see a b teamer play JD period. and you never see a player who doesn't get sent out beat the top players in SC2 either. just because it doesn't happen.
and hyvaa and hyuk are both good at a specific matchup and they generally get sent out for those matchups (hyuk v P hyvaa v T) for them to both beat jaedong in their worst matchup in jaedong's, well his former best.
Regardless, it doesn't change the underlying point. BW dying IS something that makes people emotional. There really is a very, very deep passion for the game in so, so many BW fans.
Disappointed in your "check in with life" comment. BW is a pretty big portion of many peoples lives for alot of the BW vets on TL, in much the same way football might be a pretty important part of a collegiate players life. If he suddenly learned that football was being phased out to make way for "soccer" or even "football 2" I think that would be a pretty big deal, don't you. People usually take a pretty big hit when major hobbies are taken from them.
While what you say is perfectly valid L_Master, I believe this thread will only devolve into something ugly for the reason you have two enthusiastic and die hard communities that are not above rage and trolling. One side in mourning and one side filled with enthusiasm placed in the same thread will only lead to a fight. Not to mention, there is already an unhealthy SCBW and SC2 rivalry that does nothing but jab at the TL community.
This very thread will not give SCBW the farewell thread it deserves because you have obnoxious SCBW vs SC2 elements that will make the thread about themselves and their tastes. Already you have posters talking about their join date, post number, and sense of superiority and knowledge.
Now, while I do watch more SC2 than SCBW, I have trouble thinking SCBW will die, ever.
EPT
