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I really don't understand why all this hate has to occur between Hardcore Brood War fans and hardcore SC2 fans.
I may have never been a huge Brood War fan, because I was too young when Brood War began, and I really didn't follow it, but I can understand where people are coming from when they're emotionally upset about news like this, but that doesn't make it ok to lash out at the Starcraft 2 community.
Likewise, just because Brood War players are beginning to practice Starcraft 2 doesn't mean that any hate on Brood War fans who are upset/disappointed about this news is justified. Brood War fans have been following the scene for years, and they've become really attached to it.
Why can't we all just coexist and be an ESPORTS community like we're supposed to? I can appreciate and respect the Brood War teams and the Brood War legacy even as a huge Starcraft 2 fan, and I think there are plenty like me in both communities. Brood War has an amazing legacy, and that should be respected, but perhaps Starcraft 2 is the future, much like Brood War is the past. It's too soon to tell.
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On October 29 2011 06:33 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +sc2 is the vehicle which can push starcraft from a national phenomenon to an international phenomenon, so instead of get bitter, we should focus on improving the game which has a greater long term potential for success, to the point where it's as good or better than its predecessor! People are not bitter because SC2 is succeeding. I think everybody wants SC2 to succeed. Some people are just bitter because SC2's success may come at the expense of BW. BW is the game they love, they don't want eSPORTS taking over the world or long term worldwide success. They want the game they grew up with and love.
BW was popular more or less exclusively in Korea. SC2 has been most popular outside of Korea. The drop in interest of BW in Korea wasn't due to SC2, it was going to happen anyway.
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On October 29 2011 06:07 PhoenixDark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:51 Keone wrote:On October 29 2011 05:42 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 05:34 L_Master wrote:On October 29 2011 05:20 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 04:57 tyCe wrote:On October 29 2011 04:53 THM wrote:On October 29 2011 03:56 Alpina wrote:
do you think pros like jaedong, flash really going to dominate current pros? Because everyone was talking the same when boxer, july, nada switched but they are pretty much on the same level as everyone else now. On October 29 2011 03:58 Chill wrote:
What about July? Golden mouse holder and he's not smashing SC2! I don't think it's as easy as flick a switch and BW pros now dominate SC2. Jeadong and Flash are the current best bw pros. Boxer and nada were the best at bw 5+ years ago. The difference is huge. Pretty sure Chill knows his BW considering he was the BW strategy moderator for ages ^_^ Still, you can't compared July with Jaedong. I dunno if he's trolling or drunk. July, Nada, Boxer, etc destroy the argument. If it's true top players automatically are better than SC2 players because their micro/APM/etc is superior, we should be able to witness that in the very best BW players regardless of whether their career slowed down towards the end; is anyone going to argue Nada and July aren't BW legends? I'm tired of the argument. Jaedong and company will most likely be better than July/Nada/etc but there's no guarantee they'll magically dominate SC2. Jaedong will not be better than Nestea or Dimaga or Stephano a month after switching. Or two, three, etc. That's the entire point though. Nada, July, Boxer; et al. are legends, BUT they were towards the end in their careers. They definitely didn't have the same level of micro, APM, gamesense, etc as their younger counterparts. They were great in their time, but couldn't keep up with the ever rising skill level of the younger blood in the BW scene. The newer BW players were better than those legends ever were. Same way Hicham El Guerrouj is much better than Roger Bannister ever was. But if SC2 is far easier than BW, the fact that Nada/July/etc weren't at their best wouldn't matter; the apm and micro demands are lower in SC2. So the fact that they have not dominated anything should be pointed to as evidence the skills don't translate as easily as some think. Nada is a solid SC2 player, Boxer is good, while July isn't a top 10 zerg imo. They're all good, they all have twich reflexes, tons of experience, etc. But they aren't doing nearly as well as some predicted. Since you're such an SC2 junkie, why don't you check your own stats? July was a runner up in the finals. Boxer & Nada have done amazingly in Code S considering how freaking old they are, especially the Emperor. I really think some TL writer needs to write an amazing full-fledged post to explain this to people. Oh wait, they already have... it looks like some people just don't know their TL lore. Boxer is no longer in Code S, and while Nada performed consistently he's not a top Terran player; both are good players, as I said. July got to the finals with a series of cheesy all ins. He's not a top 10 Zerg. I'm not sure he knows how to build drones. That article is laughable, and has been debated ad nasuem so I'm not going to re-litigate the past. BW and SC2 are rapidly different games, which require different levels of skill. There won't be a pure 1:1 transition of someone dominating BW automatically dominating SC2.
Are you serious? Did you not read the article fully? Of course its not a 1:1 transition.. You would be an idiot to think so, but its definitely an 80% transition, if not more.
JD isn't better than Hydra because hes mechanically superior. Hes just more dedicated. He wants to win. More than than, he hates losing. So he strives for perfection. This drive WILL transfer to sc2. Thats what makes Koreans better at starcraft than the rest. They have that dedication. If a white man gave the same amount of hard work and discipline (Huk, IdrA, Naniwa are getting there) we would get the same results. But JD and Flash are currently in a league of their own... Its their mindset and attitude towards the game.
Just read Hot_Bid's comment in that article. Idra practicing with CJ couldn't come close to touching them.
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i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
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On October 29 2011 06:35 Canadium wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 06:02 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:54 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:52 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:48 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:40 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2011 05:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:24 Canadium wrote:On October 29 2011 05:17 mrtomjones wrote:
[quote]
Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way. If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful. Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive. The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban. Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game. He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it. But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly. Then what are SC2 fans are supposed to say exactly? "glad brood war is dieing" is foul "its sad that brood war is dieing" is foul as well. Btw you can't say don't talk about it at all cause we all know its simply a to big topic considering what the thread is about. Of course if its those that are known as you say its clearly false but what about the others? We are in some serious generalizations here. I didn't tell you to say anything. I was just defending someone who got strawmanned for things he didn't mean nor say. If you read my post, all I was saying is that there are a lot of people acting sympathetic saying "Oh, it's sad to see BW dying" and then a whole bunch of stuff about how excited they are and that it makes certain people angry. I didn't say don't say it. I didn't even say that it was foul, so you misinterpreted what I wrote. Also, what are you trying to say. Your second half, seriously, made absolutely no sense. On October 29 2011 05:38 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:24 Canadium wrote:On October 29 2011 05:17 mrtomjones wrote:
[quote]
Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way. If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful. Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive. The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban. Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game. He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it. But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly. Or they like both games but just prefer sc2 now and can live without BW because they have replaced it. That does not mean they are not fans or have fond memories of BW. Ignore them and go lament with eachother if you can't handle someone being optimistic for their game of choice. Why is this turning ad hominem when all I was doing was explaining how you're just blatantly inferring from someone's post things that he didn't even say? Because he did say everything I implied he said and then you supported his opinion about all the sc2 posters etc. But w/e. Some people can only see one side of things. Gl thread How am I supporting his opinion about all SC2 posters when I specifically called you out for strawmanning his argument? If you can find a SINGLE post where I bash the SC2 side of the forum then I'll rescind all my comments. You'll see that I've only made slight jabs at players at and the game, so stop acting all high and mighty when I haven't had a single negative thing to say about SC2 posters. If anything, you're one sided for not even acknowledging that he has a point. The fact that I took NO stance in his argument and instead just reiterated it so that YOU could understand what he was talking about shows how ignorant you're being. On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote: I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2. IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting. So please stop with your fake sensitivity. What point does that serve beyond trolling sc2 and insulted sc2 "kids"? And the end of your paragraph "it gets ugly" is the issue I had with it. Does someone need to write a large speech on why they are sad for BW and happy for sc2? If you can't handle the fact they are more happy then sad and are still posting then don't read it I guess. Perhaps I was a bit harsh of your post but his post had nothing beneficial at all to any argument imo. No. Just don't mention BW at all. My problem was with fans of SC2 who have absolutely no connection to BW saying they're sad to see it go. I don't want them to spare my feelings because they have no idea what those feelings are. And I also said IMO which means it's my opinion that SC2 is an inferior game. I'm sorry if that hurts you. I don't want SC2 to die and BW to reign. In a later post I state that BW isn't broken and there is no need to switch to SC2. I'm happy for the success of SC2. I'm not here to start a flame war. Honestly.
Do you KNOW they have no connection? Perhaps they watched it plenty and are just ready for the next thing like myself. Perhaps they now just love sc2 more than bw. I don't think many people on here want BW to die but there are positives for sc2 if the best players from there move to it. Thats what most see who play sc2 in this thread. You called sc2 people "kids" when I have seen the majority of examples I have seen of people playing it were all around during BW days.
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I really don't understand why all this hate has to occur between Hardcore Brood War fans and hardcore SC2 fans.
Neither do I. It makes me 
Probably because so many of us BW guys are pretty emotional about the turmoil BW seems to be in at the moment. Anytime there is a combination of tremendous excitement and great sorrow about the same event there is almost inevitably going to be friction though.
The drop in interest of BW in Korea wasn't due to SC2, it was going to happen anyway.
The interest of BW in Korea is actually at or near all time highs. Something like 8/10 of all teens tuned in to watch the last major event.
can we all stop pretending SC2 is good ? the fact is it sucks compared to BW. ball vs ball 2 second death battles, no micro, crappy economics, etc. everyone is just pretending it's good because they are hopeful for expansions / balance updates. Or because they're a new-schooler that's all excited like "OMG ESPORTZ!!"
T_T.
Why people post this gargabe?
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I don't understand people... NOTHING LAST FOREVER. NOT SC1, NOT SC2. There will be more games. NO ONE LIVES FOREVER. Flash can't play SC1 FOREVER until he is 60. HE HAS HIS LIFE. SC2 will DIE in the future for SC3. NOTHING LIVES FOREVER. -_-
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On October 29 2011 06:37 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 06:07 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 05:51 Keone wrote:On October 29 2011 05:42 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 05:34 L_Master wrote:On October 29 2011 05:20 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 04:57 tyCe wrote:On October 29 2011 04:53 THM wrote:On October 29 2011 03:56 Alpina wrote:
do you think pros like jaedong, flash really going to dominate current pros? Because everyone was talking the same when boxer, july, nada switched but they are pretty much on the same level as everyone else now. On October 29 2011 03:58 Chill wrote:
What about July? Golden mouse holder and he's not smashing SC2! I don't think it's as easy as flick a switch and BW pros now dominate SC2. Jeadong and Flash are the current best bw pros. Boxer and nada were the best at bw 5+ years ago. The difference is huge. Pretty sure Chill knows his BW considering he was the BW strategy moderator for ages ^_^ Still, you can't compared July with Jaedong. I dunno if he's trolling or drunk. July, Nada, Boxer, etc destroy the argument. If it's true top players automatically are better than SC2 players because their micro/APM/etc is superior, we should be able to witness that in the very best BW players regardless of whether their career slowed down towards the end; is anyone going to argue Nada and July aren't BW legends? I'm tired of the argument. Jaedong and company will most likely be better than July/Nada/etc but there's no guarantee they'll magically dominate SC2. Jaedong will not be better than Nestea or Dimaga or Stephano a month after switching. Or two, three, etc. That's the entire point though. Nada, July, Boxer; et al. are legends, BUT they were towards the end in their careers. They definitely didn't have the same level of micro, APM, gamesense, etc as their younger counterparts. They were great in their time, but couldn't keep up with the ever rising skill level of the younger blood in the BW scene. The newer BW players were better than those legends ever were. Same way Hicham El Guerrouj is much better than Roger Bannister ever was. But if SC2 is far easier than BW, the fact that Nada/July/etc weren't at their best wouldn't matter; the apm and micro demands are lower in SC2. So the fact that they have not dominated anything should be pointed to as evidence the skills don't translate as easily as some think. Nada is a solid SC2 player, Boxer is good, while July isn't a top 10 zerg imo. They're all good, they all have twich reflexes, tons of experience, etc. But they aren't doing nearly as well as some predicted. Since you're such an SC2 junkie, why don't you check your own stats? July was a runner up in the finals. Boxer & Nada have done amazingly in Code S considering how freaking old they are, especially the Emperor. I really think some TL writer needs to write an amazing full-fledged post to explain this to people. Oh wait, they already have... it looks like some people just don't know their TL lore. Boxer is no longer in Code S, and while Nada performed consistently he's not a top Terran player; both are good players, as I said. July got to the finals with a series of cheesy all ins. He's not a top 10 Zerg. I'm not sure he knows how to build drones. That article is laughable, and has been debated ad nasuem so I'm not going to re-litigate the past. BW and SC2 are rapidly different games, which require different levels of skill. There won't be a pure 1:1 transition of someone dominating BW automatically dominating SC2. Are you serious? Did you not read the article fully? Of course its not a 1:1 transition.. You would be an idiot to think so, but its definitely an 80% transition, if not more. JD isn't better than Hydra because hes mechanically superior. Hes just more dedicated. He wants to win. More than than, he hates losing. So he strives for perfection. This drive WILL transfer to sc2. Thats what makes Koreans better at starcraft than the rest. They have that dedication. If a white man gave the same amount of hard work and discipline (Huk, IdrA, Naniwa are getting there) we would get the same results. But JD and Flash are currently in a league of their own... Its their mindset and attitude towards the game. Just read Hot_Bid's comment in that article. Idra practicing with CJ couldn't come close to touching them.
But do you think, that they will have the same passion and dedication for SC2 as for BW? I have doubts...
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can we all stop pretending SC2 is good ? the fact is it sucks compared to BW. ball vs ball 2 second death battles, no micro, crappy economics, etc. everyone is just pretending it's good because they are hopeful for expansions / balance updates. Or because they're a new-schooler that's all excited like "OMG ESPORTZ!!"
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 29 2011 06:41 Gorguts wrote:
can we all stop pretending SC2 is good ? the fact is it sucks compared to BW. ball vs ball 2 second death battles, no micro, crappy economics, etc. everyone is just pretending it's good because they are hopeful for expansions / balance updates. Or because they're a new-schooler that's all excited like "OMG ESPORTZ!!"
Stop comparing. EVERYTHING has its own time. SC1 shined the past 5+ years.
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The transition would be a bit rocky at first for every bw progamer I think. Boxer had a huge challenge trying to undo his brood war habits of screen hotkeying his base and macroing out of 1 barracks at a time (that's the fastest you could macro in sc1. Now it's MBS). If players like Flash, JD, Bisu, and Stork were to move over, I'd imagine they'd spend a few weeks/months trying to get used to the sc2 interface. When Gosi Terran (sixjaxmajor) transferred over into the ROOT clan, he hit the top of masters without even knowing what a creep tumour did. Inevitably some people would look at any mistakes made by these top players and say "HA! Top bw player doesn't immediately dominate sc2! BW fanboys are wrong!" but time will tell.
One thing I'm really really worried about is the current design direction of SC2. Blizzard has been adding spell after spell and units designed to fit roles when they do it wrong. Ex. the shredder is meant to provide extra space control. Why then must you babysit your shredders for siege lines? Although they were probably meant to replace the spider mine, Blizzard should note that spider mines could be left alone and slow down an army without detection.
I shouldn't rant anymore about HotS design but I will say, it better be done right and reward skilled play as well as provide entertaining visuals for the spectator.
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I understand how BW fans feel, but I can't help but feel this was eventual and inevitable, and I find it hard to understand how some people didn't see it coming. I believe it's gonna take some time but this could be the beginning of a new era for SC2. Many people don't understand (or don't want to see) how flawed the play of current SC2 progamers is. I'm not saying I'd do even remotely better lol, but battles, micro, macro, decision making, everything is filled with little gaps that can be improved upon, and maybe the current BW pros could do a good job at that. BW fans who believe the SC2 skill cap is even close to reached are completely delusional, but that's fine, I assume they don't watch that much SC2 so they don't really notice.
Once the BW community settles in (even if many refuse and just leave), I think they can bring a very positive element to the SC2 community which the latter lacks, which is the capacity to think beyond balance and into direct problem solution. Teams and BW progamers have functioned like this for years and have driven the game development forward, maybe they can bring this mentality to SC2 with them, which would bring immense benefits.
"No king rules forever"
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On October 29 2011 06:42 Kid-Fox wrote:
The transition would be a bit rocky at first for every bw progamer I think. Boxer had a huge challenge trying to undo his brood war habits of screen hotkeying his base and macroing out of 1 barracks at a time (that's the fastest you could macro in sc1. Now it's MBS). If players like Flash, JD, Bisu, and Stork were to move over, I'd imagine they'd spend a few weeks/months trying to get used to the sc2 interface. When Gosi Terran (sixjaxmajor) transferred over into the ROOT clan, he hit the top of masters without even knowing what a creep tumour did. Inevitably some people would look at any mistakes made by these top players and say "HA! Top bw player doesn't immediately dominate sc2! BW fanboys are wrong!" but time will tell.
One thing I'm really really worried about is the current design direction of SC2. Blizzard has been adding spell after spell and units designed to fit roles when they do it wrong. Ex. the shredder is meant to provide extra space control. Why then must you babysit your shredders for siege lines? Although they were probably meant to replace the spider mine, Blizzard should note that spider mines could be left alone and slow down an army without detection.
I shouldn't rant anymore about HotS design but I will say, it better be done right and reward skilled play as well as provide entertaining visuals for the spectator.
Please relax, SC2 is only 1 year old. Wait 5+ more years of balance, then come back.
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On October 29 2011 06:40 ShootingStars wrote:
I don't understand people... NOTHING LAST FOREVER. NOT SC1, NOT SC2. There will be more games. NO ONE LIVES FOREVER. Flash can't play SC1 FOREVER until he is 60. HE HAS HIS LIFE. SC2 will DIE in the future for SC3. NOTHING LIVES FOREVER. -_-
Again. Let me emphasize. Your parents, relatives, friends also won't live forever. Are you not similarly sad and upset when they get sick and die?
I understand how BW fans feel, but I can't help but feel this was eventual and inevitable, and I find it hard to understand how some people didn't see it coming.
I'm not sure too many people were "caught blindsided". It doesn't change the fact that BW dying is still a pretty depressing thing for many, many diehard BW fans. Like I said above, even if a family member gets cancer and you know they are going to die eventually it doesn't make it not sad when the time does come.
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On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
I think this statement is completely false. The top end of SC2 players are NOWHERE near the skill ceiling for the game, even if it's not constantly picked at in televised matches, there is so much room for improvement. When players get closer to that in future, I think the top end of players will be leagues ahead of the lower tier players.
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I don't entirely see the business logic in this anyway. How in the world are the teams going to justify the move, considering SC2's lack of popularity in Korea? I mean, even with teams disbanding and MBCGame being shut down, BW is still way more popular, more established, with better players and a better spectator experience. It's still broadcasted on TV annually, while GSL is just a fringe Internet broadcast for the most part, which gets most of its viewers from abroad. Huge crowds still show up for OSL finals.
So, why in the world would major sponsors support the switch? Even if you optimistically assume that a good amount of BW watchers would follow the players, you'd inevitably lose some of them. Unless they believe that putting SC2 in the spotlight will attract a completely new audience, it just makes no sense. Why not just keep up with BW, let it die when its time comes, and hop off the esports train? And leave SC2 to its niche.
I guess it might be kespa getting desperate, but I don't see why a major transition would work in Korea.
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On October 29 2011 06:40 ShootingStars wrote:
I don't understand people... NOTHING LAST FOREVER. NOT SC1, NOT SC2. There will be more games. NO ONE LIVES FOREVER. Flash can't play SC1 FOREVER until he is 60. HE HAS HIS LIFE. SC2 will DIE in the future for SC3. NOTHING LIVES FOREVER. -_-
Yeah, because if your family died you'd just be like "Oh well, it happens."
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On October 29 2011 06:37 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 06:33 L_Master wrote:sc2 is the vehicle which can push starcraft from a national phenomenon to an international phenomenon, so instead of get bitter, we should focus on improving the game which has a greater long term potential for success, to the point where it's as good or better than its predecessor! People are not bitter because SC2 is succeeding. I think everybody wants SC2 to succeed. Some people are just bitter because SC2's success may come at the expense of BW. BW is the game they love, they don't want eSPORTS taking over the world or long term worldwide success. They want the game they grew up with and love. BW was popular more or less exclusively in Korea. SC2 has been most popular outside of Korea. The drop in interest of BW in Korea wasn't due to SC2, it was going to happen anyway.
I don't agree with that last statement at all. BW was going so strong mid 2010 (in Korea).. Strong even through the beta. It was only after SC2 launched that all the drama started between Blizz and Kespa.
The main reason why SC2 is doing so well in the foreign scene is cause the world can compete at the same level as the Koreans. If they were dominating as hard as they are in BW (which don't worry, they will eventually) then the foreign scene will die down significantly. Its just how it is.
And the main reason why Koreans are way better is just that they have more discipline. Huk training there has given him that discipline. That's why hes rising to the top.
Were just going to have to wait and see at the end of the day.
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This thread has really gone to shit. close? just make a article about it. idfk
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On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene.
Of course some ex BW pros will drop out of SC2.
And about the "losing to bad players" seems to be a old and quite tired argument against SC2. We've had the same two guys win 6 out of the 9 or so GSLs so far. We've seen the same bunch of people place well in most tournaments. Sure there's a difference from BW but it's a huge exaggeration to say that the best lose "time after time" against worse players.
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EPT
