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On October 29 2011 06:08 .vid wrote:
don't want to see flash & co. in sc2, at least not anytime soon. why would they play a (currently) gimped and inferior game? + they earn more money with bw anyway.
at least 10 more osl/spl seasons please, hopefully by then sc2 becomes a better game then what it is today (crap).
In case you haven't paid any attention to this year's BW PROGAMING news, many teams have disbanded and things are not looking bright for the future of SCBW Progaming.
Yes, today they earn more money with scbw but the golden times are near over. As soon as Kespa and Gretech sort out what's gonna happen with sc2 and the sc2 proleague, I can assure you the days of professional scbw are over.
The smart thing to do is for these teams to get ready for the inevitable - the switch to sc2 - besides, they could earn a pretty high amount of money if they won many large tournaments each year.
GSL + MLG + IEM + DH + Many small online tournaments + smaller lans = decent money
Obviously once the proteams move to sc2, so will their sponsors and with them, the money required to keep up with the high salaries.
I can't wait to see Flash & company taking sc2 to an entire new level.
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These news are both exciting and sad at the same time. It will take the time for the last expansions to come out and some patches until the game is close to the form BW currently is and while they can fit in units to fill roles that are super lacking, some of the HotS designs seemed a bit half-assed.
Time will tell.
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On October 29 2011 06:09 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:22 skyzzang wrote:
Just take a look at Julyzerg. What happend to him in SC2 ?
One of the reason why he's doing poorly is because
1) Skill ceiling for SC2 is very very very low compared to BW
2) Easy interface, Binding, Unit control
3) Zerg's specialty does not shine in SC2 as much as it did in BW, which was speed and flank.
aka, one sentry blocking the ramp.
People say this all the time (well 1 and 2). And yet, we still haven't seen an game where someone 1) hit every worker (non-zerg) 2) never got supply blocked 3) had perfect overlord/creep spread As for the interface, when I watch SC2, every major battle involves several scenes of miscontrol. Sure a lot of it is bad players keeping everything on one hot key, but things like: 1 - not target firing tanks 2 - not spreading colossus 3 - not keeping HT/Infestors from running to their death when they're out of energy these things keep happening, and are just the common examples (FF micro and unit spreading isn't really consistent either) The skill ceiling for SC2 is still a long way from being reached, despite the easier interface / infinite control groups / ect. As for July, it's pretty simple for a long time he played every matchup exactly as if it were still BW, and when he wasn't playing them as if it were BW, he certainly wasn't playing them with a high SC2 understanding.
Since when do people think July isn't good at SC2?? I guess top 5 zerg in the world isn't good enough for some
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On October 29 2011 05:53 Novalisk wrote:Whoa, never thought people would actually use that after I made it.
You welcome 
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The guest appearance at Blizzcon is making a lot more sense with this context.
I wonder what this means for all of the current SC2 teams? Will they end up getting absorbed by the Proleague teams as their infrastructure isn't even comparable to what they have?  NesTea going back to KT would be so imba.
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On October 29 2011 06:23 Jochan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:56 PredY wrote:i'm certain players like flash or jaedong will push the game to the limits and will provide a lot of exciting games with a lot of micro, macro, positioning and crazy situations, but blizzard needs to listen to them.  No offense, but progamers are whiners also and are susceptible to emotional statements. Best example and extremely clear is MVP. After he dropped to Code A he said that terran is the weakest race, then without any major changes to T (even some minor nerfs) he proceeded to win 3 GSL titles and dominate the scene. I don't wanna say that they don't know what they are saying, they are obviously extremely knowledgeable people, but you cannot take everything what they say seriously and say: Yeah, let's do that. Everyone is a bit bias towards their own race.
ya you're right i kinda meant it in more of game design rather than the balance, as blizzard knows the best what numbers need to change. but f.e. if those players say the collosus is so badly designed that it's a burden to the protoss race, blizzard really need act and with hots coming, they can try to replace is or whatever.
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"The beacons have been lit! Korean SC2 calls for aid!! ......and BW WILL ANSWER!!" I'm so glad that this finally happened!
seriously imagine the infrastructure, talent, and all those resources now being concentrated and pumped into the ailing SC2 scene in Korea. THIS IS GONNA BE HUUUUGE!
I can't wait to see just how high level Sc2 becomes!! You think you know esports? You haven't seen anything yet!
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I have read the 60 pages that have been written and the feeling I have is that many believe that Superathletes like JD, Flash or Bisu would not be as good in SC2 as they are in BW, let me tell them they are totally wrong . Everyone who ever played BW are better players in Sc2 because Blizzard just introduced substantial aid to the metagame: Automining, rally points, chain orders, unlimited size etcetc groups of units. Why not the only ones that would improve will be Professionals ?,, I see no sense
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On October 29 2011 06:01 HydroOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:59 Zergneedsfood wrote:
There's a reason why older players phase out. It happens in every sport, and it'll be true in e-sports too. It happens in other sports because their bodies can't perform at the same physical level. There's no reason why it has to happen in esports, especially to a 26 year old. It's not like his hands are slow or something. As long as the dedication and practice are still there, I don't see why he can't succeed.
I am critical of this line of reasoning (physical issues) and lean more towards the "mindset" (and maybe mental agility) explanation, too.
A few days ago I watched a live recording of Barenboim playing the piano. He didn't play a purely technical show-off piece but still - he is almost 69 years old and his execution & interpretation was very impressive.
Many musicians are able to maintain a very high standard of technical skill until high age which makes me very doubt that it is really physical speed that creates issues for SC players during their 20s.
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On October 29 2011 06:24 IMABUNNEH wrote:Show nested quote +
It's like coming in and saying "Relax guys, all people die eventually. Your mother had her time for 54 years." Point being BW dying IS very much an emotional, touchy, subject for those that have grown up with it and enjoyed the game for so long.
Except people are getting as emotional as if their mother HAD died, when it's merely a transitioning in computer gaming.
Well, there are certain people who consider BW a part of their lives.
Has everyone already forgotten Day[9] Daily #100? Maybe we should bump it?
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France12771 Posts
On October 29 2011 06:23 Jochan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:56 PredY wrote:i'm certain players like flash or jaedong will push the game to the limits and will provide a lot of exciting games with a lot of micro, macro, positioning and crazy situations, but blizzard needs to listen to them. No offense, but progamers are whiners also and are susceptible to emotional statements. Best example and extremely clear is MVP. After he dropped to Code A he said that terran is the weakest race, then without any major changes to T (even some minor nerfs) he proceeded to win 3 GSL titles and dominate the scene. I don't wanna say that they don't know what they are saying, they are obviously extremely knowledgeable people, but you cannot take everything what they say seriously and say: Yeah, let's do that. Everyone is a bit bias towards their own race.
He was saying that terran was weakest on huge new maps, ald it was true especially before KA nerf.
He is the best player in the world, terran weak or strong he would still win
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On October 29 2011 06:01 HydroOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:59 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:58 HydroOwl wrote:On October 29 2011 05:51 Keone wrote:On October 29 2011 05:42 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 05:34 L_Master wrote:On October 29 2011 05:20 PhoenixDark wrote:On October 29 2011 04:57 tyCe wrote:On October 29 2011 04:53 THM wrote:On October 29 2011 03:56 Alpina wrote:
do you think pros like jaedong, flash really going to dominate current pros? Because everyone was talking the same when boxer, july, nada switched but they are pretty much on the same level as everyone else now. On October 29 2011 03:58 Chill wrote:
What about July? Golden mouse holder and he's not smashing SC2! I don't think it's as easy as flick a switch and BW pros now dominate SC2. Jeadong and Flash are the current best bw pros. Boxer and nada were the best at bw 5+ years ago. The difference is huge. Pretty sure Chill knows his BW considering he was the BW strategy moderator for ages ^_^ Still, you can't compared July with Jaedong. I dunno if he's trolling or drunk. July, Nada, Boxer, etc destroy the argument. If it's true top players automatically are better than SC2 players because their micro/APM/etc is superior, we should be able to witness that in the very best BW players regardless of whether their career slowed down towards the end; is anyone going to argue Nada and July aren't BW legends? I'm tired of the argument. Jaedong and company will most likely be better than July/Nada/etc but there's no guarantee they'll magically dominate SC2. Jaedong will not be better than Nestea or Dimaga or Stephano a month after switching. Or two, three, etc. That's the entire point though. Nada, July, Boxer; et al. are legends, BUT they were towards the end in their careers. They definitely didn't have the same level of micro, APM, gamesense, etc as their younger counterparts. They were great in their time, but couldn't keep up with the ever rising skill level of the younger blood in the BW scene. The newer BW players were better than those legends ever were. Same way Hicham El Guerrouj is much better than Roger Bannister ever was. But if SC2 is far easier than BW, the fact that Nada/July/etc weren't at their best wouldn't matter; the apm and micro demands are lower in SC2. So the fact that they have not dominated anything should be pointed to as evidence the skills don't translate as easily as some think. Nada is a solid SC2 player, Boxer is good, while July isn't a top 10 zerg imo. They're all good, they all have twich reflexes, tons of experience, etc. But they aren't doing nearly as well as some predicted. Since you're such an SC2 junkie, why don't you check your own stats? July was a runner up in the finals. Boxer & Nada have done amazingly in Code S considering how freaking old they are, especially the Emperor. I really think some TL writer needs to write an amazing full-fledged post to explain this to people. Oh wait, they already have... it looks like some people just don't know their TL lore. Freaking old? Nada is 26, Boxer is 31. In what world is this "freaking old"? Are you one of those people that thinks their hands slow down or something? There's a reason why older players phase out. It happens in every sport, and it'll be true in e-sports too. It happens in other sports because their bodies can't perform at the same physical level. There's no reason why it has to happen in esports, especially to a 26 year old. It's not like his hands are slow or something. As long as the dedication and practice are still there, I don't see why he can't succeed.
What? The human brain start to deteriorate when you are in the EARLY twenties. I would say you lose your performance even earlier in Starcraft compared to sports, because you can train your body, but you can not train your brain in that way. Your brain perform the best at 20-22, and from then on it is downhill, and in the late twenties people start to show signs of significant brain deterioration. These are the reasons why no one over 23 have ever won anything significant in BW. If you can be 31 and win anything major in Starcraft 2 the only reason would be that the competition not yet reached true pro-level.
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God reading this thread makes me sick. So many stupid arguments and ignorant people.
Go read up on shit, most top players will say BW has a way higher skill ceiling atm, with everything (Micro/Macro, Strategy, ect...). Saying SC2 is better because the mechanics are easier to learn and master so you can focus more on strategy is retarded.
In BW you have to do both at far higher levels, stuff like miss chance on firing up high ground, lurkers, mines, ect..
Also stuff like "Starcraft 1 had a decade to get to where it is now". Well you know how many competitive RTS games were around when Starcraft came out? A couple, if any at all.
SC2 should get to it's skill cap at a MUCH faster rate then Starcraft 1.
And this was originally a BW forum before SC2, saying stupid shit like this:
On October 29 2011 06:12 epiics wrote:
This is awesome, BW players need to relax all games fade eventually. BW had its time for 10 years and now SC2 is going to have its turn to leave its mark on eposrts.
Is obviously going to piss alot of people off. So think before you open your ignorant mouths.
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On October 29 2011 06:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 06:13 CellTech wrote:
Have any of you BW fans ever considered that many of these 18-25 year olds are tired of playing an old ass game? I KNOW bw is better than sc2, i spent my entire childhood playing, but maybe these guys simply want a change. That's EXACTLY why we're sad. If it makes a better analogy, think of Toy Story 3, except with video games.
WHAAAAAAAAAT?! Toy Story 3 was AMAZING! If you are implying what I think you are implying... I even went as Chuckles to a Halloween party (^_^)
If not, then never mind. But I couldn't let that slide 
I wonder when this SC2 vs BW stuff will die a death and we can focus on who may be switching, and which races they might play - all the nice guessing/rumourmongering TL is so good at.
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On October 29 2011 06:24 IMABUNNEH wrote:Show nested quote +
It's like coming in and saying "Relax guys, all people die eventually. Your mother had her time for 54 years." Point being BW dying IS very much an emotional, touchy, subject for those that have grown up with it and enjoyed the game for so long.
Except people are getting as emotional as if their mother HAD died, when it's merely a transitioning in computer gaming.
Yes, the "death" of BW isn't on par with someone's mother dying, but I don't like the way you phrased that.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it sounds somewhat dismissive; like "Oh, it's just a computer game so not that big of a deal, right?"
The thing is, for many BW players, it IS that big of a deal. This is the kind of thing that people are going to get be sad about, cry for, and get depressed for weeks about; especially if it happens quickly in one fell blow. Many, many BW players love BW to that level and have precisely that kind of a cultivated passion for the game. Why do you think you get such fanatical and angry posts from BW guys popping up so often?
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why can't people just be happy about this
if you could increase viewership of e-sports from a sizable percent of a small fraction of the world, to a sizable percent of the entire world, wouldn't you want to jump on it? believe me, i fuckin' love brood war, but i feel like too many brood war fans have forgotten that the bottom line is that e-sports is about players making from being good at the game. if there's more money to be had in sc2, then they should transition into sc2. think of it this way - 5 years from now, if everyone plays their cards right, all top players could easily have salaries in the 1 million+ range in a scene with international sponsor backing and viewership.
this is perhaps the best possible timing for the transition to begin, because if all the s-class progamers provide their feedback during the sc2 beta, many of the major issues that the bw hardcore have with this game can eventually be resolved
i'm honestly shocked that we're still having arguments about the ui after all this time. it's become increasing clear even if the mechanical aspect of the game is not as difficult there is still a massive skill gap between the top 10 players in the world, and the top 100
what we really need to be rallying for is more micro intensive abilities. here's a really simple example - if the colossus laser swipes were slowed down so that you could dodge them like you can lurker spines, then microed marines would fare much better against colossus, whereas a-moved marines would die just as easily. this is just one example of something to improve micro potentional, and i could easily come up with a dozen of things like this, without adding a single new unit to the game
sc2 is the vehicle which can push starcraft from a national phenomenon to an international phenomenon, so instead of get bitter, we should focus on improving the game which has a greater long term potential for success, to the point where it's as good or better than its predecessor!
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On October 29 2011 06:28 cost2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 06:01 HydroOwl wrote:On October 29 2011 05:59 Zergneedsfood wrote:
There's a reason why older players phase out. It happens in every sport, and it'll be true in e-sports too. It happens in other sports because their bodies can't perform at the same physical level. There's no reason why it has to happen in esports, especially to a 26 year old. It's not like his hands are slow or something. As long as the dedication and practice are still there, I don't see why he can't succeed. I am critical of this line of reasoning (physical issues) and lean more towards the "mindset" (and maybe mental agility) explanation, too. A few days ago I watched a live recording of Barenboim playing the piano. He didn't play a purely technical show-off piece but still - he is almost 69 years old and his execution & interpretation was very impressive. Many musicians are able to maintain a very high standard of technical skill until high age which makes me very doubt that it is really physical speed that creates issues for SC players during their 20s.
Difference is that playing the piano can be done with relaxed wrists, playing with a mouse and keyboard really can't. That's why MVP has CTS and Flash had surgery on his forearm/wrist.
Piano is a much more dynamic act than using a mouse/keyboard. Blood flow is much better and your posture can be maintained better too.
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sc2 is the vehicle which can push starcraft from a national phenomenon to an international phenomenon, so instead of get bitter, we should focus on improving the game which has a greater long term potential for success, to the point where it's as good or better than its predecessor!
People are not bitter because SC2 is succeeding. I think everybody wants SC2 to succeed.
Some people are just bitter because SC2's success may come at the expense of BW. BW is the game they love, they don't want eSPORTS taking over the world or long term worldwide success. They want the game they grew up with and love.
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On October 29 2011 06:30 Zanno wrote:
why can't people just be happy about this
if you could increase viewership of e-sports from a sizable percent of a small fraction of the world, to a sizable percent of the entire world, wouldn't you want to jump on it? believe me, i fuckin' love brood war, but i feel like too many brood war fans have forgotten that the bottom line is that e-sports is about players making from being good at the game. if there's more money to be had in sc2, then they should transition into sc2. think of it this way - 5 years from now, if everyone plays their cards right, all top players could easily have salaries in the 1 million+ range in a scene with international sponsor backing and viewership.
this is perhaps the best possible timing for the transition to begin, because if all the s-class progamers provide their feedback during the sc2 beta, many of the major issues that the bw hardcore have with this game can eventually be resolved
i'm honestly shocked that we're still having arguments about the ui after all this time. it's become increasing clear even if the mechanical aspect of the game is not as difficult there is still a massive skill gap between the top 10 players in the world, and the top 100
what we really need to be rallying for is more micro intensive abilities. here's a really simple example - if the colossus laser swipes were slowed down so that you could dodge them like you can lurker spines, then microed marines would fare much better against colossus, whereas a-moved marines would die just as easily. this is just one example of something to improve micro potentional, and i could easily come up with a dozen of things like this, without adding a single new unit to the game
sc2 is the vehicle which can push starcraft from a national phenomenon to an international phenomenon, so instead of get bitter, we should focus on improving the game which has a greater long term potential for success, to the point where it's as good or better than its predecessor!
If SCII is the vehicle we have to drive for E-Sports to continue then I don't give a fuck about E-Sports.
BW is one of the best, if not the best, RTS I have ever played/seen.
If all of a sudden, I had to watch some new version of soccer in order for it to progress...I'm not watching the same game, so I don't care.
Same applies here.
To hell with "E-Sports", let me have Brood War please.
User was warned for this post
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On October 29 2011 06:02 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 05:54 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:52 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:48 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:40 Assirra wrote:On October 29 2011 05:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:24 Canadium wrote:On October 29 2011 05:17 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote:
I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity. Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way. If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful. Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive. The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban. Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game. He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it. But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly. Then what are SC2 fans are supposed to say exactly? "glad brood war is dieing" is foul "its sad that brood war is dieing" is foul as well. Btw you can't say don't talk about it at all cause we all know its simply a to big topic considering what the thread is about. Of course if its those that are known as you say its clearly false but what about the others? We are in some serious generalizations here. I didn't tell you to say anything. I was just defending someone who got strawmanned for things he didn't mean nor say. If you read my post, all I was saying is that there are a lot of people acting sympathetic saying "Oh, it's sad to see BW dying" and then a whole bunch of stuff about how excited they are and that it makes certain people angry. I didn't say don't say it. I didn't even say that it was foul, so you misinterpreted what I wrote. Also, what are you trying to say. Your second half, seriously, made absolutely no sense. On October 29 2011 05:38 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:33 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 05:30 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:24 Canadium wrote:On October 29 2011 05:17 mrtomjones wrote:On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote:
I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2.
IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting.
So please stop with your fake sensitivity. Or you could act less butthurt and accept that they truly do feel that way. If they truly felt that way they'd help keep the game alive instead of saying things like "It's sad to see BW die." Which is what a game as good as BW deserves. BW doesn't need to die. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. It's just disrespectful. Ok. I'll help keep broodwar alive. Oh wait... I have no influence over whether it lives or dies... that sucks. You are trying to blame people for something they can do nothing about? Maybe YOU should be doing something to keep it alive. The point of his post was for people to stop saying "sad that BW is dying" as if it's some sympathetic remark to stave off a ban. Most people who truly are into BW and love the game are either resentful or terribly sad that some of their favorite teams and players are switching over to what they see as an inferior game. He's just telling you to stop acting sympathetic because few BW fans will actually say "Oh, I'm sorry BW is dead, but I'm hopeful about the future!" Those who do say it are actually quite known and have been vocal about it for some time, and they do get recognized for saying it. But when people just post one liners and then expect us to be satisfied, then it turns into something ugly. Or they like both games but just prefer sc2 now and can live without BW because they have replaced it. That does not mean they are not fans or have fond memories of BW. Ignore them and go lament with eachother if you can't handle someone being optimistic for their game of choice. Why is this turning ad hominem when all I was doing was explaining how you're just blatantly inferring from someone's post things that he didn't even say? Because he did say everything I implied he said and then you supported his opinion about all the sc2 posters etc. But w/e. Some people can only see one side of things. Gl thread How am I supporting his opinion about all SC2 posters when I specifically called you out for strawmanning his argument? If you can find a SINGLE post where I bash the SC2 side of the forum then I'll rescind all my comments. You'll see that I've only made slight jabs at players at and the game, so stop acting all high and mighty when I haven't had a single negative thing to say about SC2 posters. If anything, you're one sided for not even acknowledging that he has a point. The fact that I took NO stance in his argument and instead just reiterated it so that YOU could understand what he was talking about shows how ignorant you're being. On October 29 2011 05:15 Canadium wrote: I love how all the SC2 kids are like "It IS sad to see BW die, but who cares we were never involved with it anyway!" Seriously just admit you have no idea what it's like to be a fan of BW and stop trying to kiss our asses because it is painful to hear all this news of possible transitions to SC2. IMO I don't think any top BW pros should switch: It would be almost insulting to see them play a game that's less skillful and less exciting. So please stop with your fake sensitivity. What point does that serve beyond trolling sc2 and insulted sc2 "kids"? And the end of your paragraph "it gets ugly" is the issue I had with it. Does someone need to write a large speech on why they are sad for BW and happy for sc2? If you can't handle the fact they are more happy then sad and are still posting then don't read it I guess. Perhaps I was a bit harsh of your post but his post had nothing beneficial at all to any argument imo.
No. Just don't mention BW at all. My problem was with fans of SC2 who have absolutely no connection to BW saying they're sad to see it go. I don't want them to spare my feelings because they have no idea what those feelings are. And I also said IMO which means it's my opinion that SC2 is an inferior game. I'm sorry if that hurts you. I don't want SC2 to die and BW to reign. In a later post I state that BW isn't broken and there is no need to switch to SC2. I'm happy for the success of SC2. I'm not here to start a flame war. Honestly.
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