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On October 29 2011 07:46 Wafflelisk wrote:So wait, Flash is switching over? So, is BW completely dead? I hope not. I mean, I watch and play SC2 more, but mostly because it's easier for an English speaker to follow and the community is larger. BW is still a better game, and I'd be sad to see pro-BW die. 
No BW isn't freakin' dead, and it's not gonna be dead for a while. I may be an "SC2 guy", but BW is still great, and the best RTS players in the world still play it.
That said, the BW teams would be foolish not to start planning their switch now. It's GOING to happen at some point that SC2 becomes the dominant RTS. Change cannot be stopped, time marches on, etc etc horrible cliches ad naseum.
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I have been playing Blizzard games since the original warcraft, my best friend got it and installed the spawn on my 486. We stayed up all night, and many more nights there after. I bought the original starcraft the day it came out, and played the shit out of it!
But that was a long time ago and like all things in life, the old must give way to the new. Just like the previous generations of your family, they make their contribution to the world, pass on their DNA, and pass away. Much as most of us seek to do.
In a sense the transition from BW into SC2 is much the same. Broodwar ushered in a new age of RTS, a new age of Esports, and it passed on it's legacy to SC2. In what seems like no time at all, SC2 has quickly matured and has moved out of the shadow of it's predecessors legacy. It is Starcraft 2's time now, it is ready to take it's rightful place on the throne of E-Sports.
For many of us seeing professional BW writing it's final chapters is bittersweet. We have this great new game to play, but the nostalgia and memories of old friends, old rivalries, many nights spent watching pro's, practicing, and sitting in awe of epic games is hard to let go of. But time stops for no one, and nothing. We must accept that which we cannot change.
For anyone who wasn't a Broodwar player I'm sure there is a game you played in your youth, bomberman, Zelda, Mario, another Blizzard game, Halo, COD, Ect, that the mere mention of just floods you with more memories and feelings than you can bare to sort out.
Think of these feelings when you see BW follower's reactions to this announcement. You may not agree with there opinions or feelings, but try to understand. They come from love of Broodwar not hate of Starcraft2. To the BroodWar fellows, I feel like BW has climbed every mountain, and discovered every continent. I can think of no greater personification of this than 'Flash' and what a good note for Broodwar to end on. There are just few new places left to go. It's time to let go, it's time for the old to give way to the new.
So let us mourn the loss of something so many loved, and at the same time cheer for a new era of SC2. Where the best of Broodwar test the resolve of a new generation of champions. There are so many uncertainties, so many possibilities, so many great games of Starcraft yet to be played.
Let us do this together, as one group of people who love E'sports, as one group who love competition of the highest caliber, as one group who love Starcraft.
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France12904 Posts
On October 29 2011 07:48 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:30 ptrpb wrote:On October 29 2011 07:26 kainzero wrote:On October 29 2011 06:55 lFrost wrote:
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw iirc there was a bnet attack where jaedong lost against a high level clan member (non-progamer) and was visibly pissed okay it was bnet and there was lag so he couldn't muta micro but still didn't flash lose to lomo and ssak to get eliminated from msl RO32? i wouldn't know if the equivalent happens in sc2 because i don't watch sc2 Virus almost beat NesTea last season, it was ridiculously close. Virus is a legit professional. That's not even close to the same thing. The same thing would be if some random ladder hero from MLG Providence open bracket comes out and beast MVP or Nestea on Championship Sunday.
Like Goswer against Polt, or Gatored against TOP?
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Injured Flash would still probably shit on everyone in SC2 xd
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On October 29 2011 07:51 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:48 Wuster wrote:On October 29 2011 07:30 ptrpb wrote:On October 29 2011 07:26 kainzero wrote:On October 29 2011 06:55 lFrost wrote:
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw iirc there was a bnet attack where jaedong lost against a high level clan member (non-progamer) and was visibly pissed okay it was bnet and there was lag so he couldn't muta micro but still didn't flash lose to lomo and ssak to get eliminated from msl RO32? i wouldn't know if the equivalent happens in sc2 because i don't watch sc2 Virus almost beat NesTea last season, it was ridiculously close. Virus is a legit professional. That's not even close to the same thing. The same thing would be if some random ladder hero from MLG Providence open bracket comes out and beast MVP or Nestea on Championship Sunday. Like Goswer against Polt, or Gatored against TOP?
Did you even watch those games? There was nothing random or sneaky about them. In both cases the loser got flat out fucking played. End of story. Gatored beasted IEM New York, he was playing at his tip top best, and he outplayed some people that weren't. Shocking I know.
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On October 29 2011 07:51 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:48 Wuster wrote:On October 29 2011 07:30 ptrpb wrote:On October 29 2011 07:26 kainzero wrote:On October 29 2011 06:55 lFrost wrote:
yeah maybe idra is a bad example, but my point is that you will see no-namers take games off of some of the best in sc2's current state. that does not happen in bw.
and to the previous guy yes every game has luck but sc2 is MORE luck dependent compared to bw iirc there was a bnet attack where jaedong lost against a high level clan member (non-progamer) and was visibly pissed okay it was bnet and there was lag so he couldn't muta micro but still didn't flash lose to lomo and ssak to get eliminated from msl RO32? i wouldn't know if the equivalent happens in sc2 because i don't watch sc2 Virus almost beat NesTea last season, it was ridiculously close. Virus is a legit professional. That's not even close to the same thing. The same thing would be if some random ladder hero from MLG Providence open bracket comes out and beast MVP or Nestea on Championship Sunday. Like Goswer against Polt, or Gatored against TOP?
We haven't yet seen any MLG Royal Roader who is a complete no name that goes from the open bracket and kills everyone.
I wonder how many GSLs Flash will destroy?
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On October 29 2011 07:48 Skeggaba wrote:
Absolute korean dominance coming up, foreign players wont stand a chance. If Flash, JD, Bisu ect. really dedicate themselves to play SCII then its game over pretty much. God i really hope they dont T.T
Yep. The current high-level Koreans in SC2 won't be heard from again once the switch happens. ;o
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On October 29 2011 07:55 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:48 Skeggaba wrote:
Absolute korean dominance coming up, foreign players wont stand a chance. If Flash, JD, Bisu ect. really dedicate themselves to play SCII then its game over pretty much. God i really hope they dont T.T Yep. The current high-level Koreans in SC2 won't be heard from again once the switch happens. ;o
Before anyone goes on a rant about this comment let me just say I F'ing HOPE SO! I hope that the level of play that we see today is nothing compared to the level of play these seasoned progamers will bring to the scene.
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I have a question to the BW players in this thread. Which BW player do you expect to do best in SC2, which are famous for skills,that translate very well into SC2.
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The clear and blatent sc2 bashing from the bw guys has made me lose a large amount of respect for their community. that being said it will be sad to see bw go but im excited for sc2's future.
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On October 29 2011 07:49 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:45 Darth Caedus wrote:On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Thank you for properly saying what I was going to try to put into words far less eloquently. As SC2 gets older (years after the last expansion) I expect it to look very similar to BW now. It's just going to be a growing process. It sucks that BW fans have gone through it already and have to endure "worse" (really just less developed play) in SC2 for a while, but at some point a new game was going to be made. Nothing lasts forever. The two games are different to the point where one will never be like the other. It's just the game design. Whether you like one or the other is a matter of personal preferences, but I think it's safe to say that SC2 won't be "like" BW, because of how it's designed. Also, I'd also like to note that SC2 has a bustling e-sports scene and it's a game that's been intensely studied on a level that outmatches that of BW. I think it's safe to say that along with simpler mechanics/less bugs/smarter AI/technology the amount of time that it'll take to see what one can do in this game is going to be a lot faster than in BW.
The main complaint that I was trying to respond to was that "worse players can win easily in SC2, not in BW". That is somewhat true right now, but it won't be in a few years when all units and timings are understood and safe builds are known. When people scout better and know all the correct responses the better players will win.
Isn't that how BW is now and what most of the fans are mad about? In that respect, I expect SC2 to eventually reach the same place in terms of level of competition and balance that BW is at now.
But I do agree that the game will look and feel different due to the AI and interface differences. But right now you can't comment on which game will be a better spectator experience because we do not yet know what good, developed SC2 play will look like.
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On October 29 2011 07:28 figq wrote:What do you think about this issue? I can say I'm undecided, either option seems possible to me at this point. Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...:prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (61) 60% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (40) 40% 101 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will...: (Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
Reference: "The Elephant in the Room"
what a bias pool :/
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On October 29 2011 07:46 Wafflelisk wrote:So wait, Flash is switching over? So, is BW completely dead? I hope not. I mean, I watch and play SC2 more, but mostly because it's easier for an English speaker to follow and the community is larger. BW is still a better game, and I'd be sad to see pro-BW die.
Despite all the experts in this thread, it's all conjecture. We won't know for sure until the next season of proleague starts, most likely. It's slated for early-mid November I think, so we'll know for sure what's happening soon.
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And I was just getting into broodwar
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On October 29 2011 07:55 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:48 Skeggaba wrote:
Absolute korean dominance coming up, foreign players wont stand a chance. If Flash, JD, Bisu ect. really dedicate themselves to play SCII then its game over pretty much. God i really hope they dont T.T Yep. The current high-level Koreans in SC2 won't be heard from again once the switch happens. ;o
i think that's a bit unfair
just because some player was a B-teamer a few years ago, doesn't mean they could potentially be A-team now
it's something that's essentially unknowable, but the reality is everyone has to start somewhere. the only player i can think of, who immediately shot up the ranks to the A-team right after being drafted, which should come as no surprise, was flash
of course flash and jaedong will probably slaughter everyone given enough time, but to say that the entire scene will be rotated out seems ridiculous to me
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On October 29 2011 07:59 Gann1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:46 Wafflelisk wrote:So wait, Flash is switching over? So, is BW completely dead? I hope not. I mean, I watch and play SC2 more, but mostly because it's easier for an English speaker to follow and the community is larger. BW is still a better game, and I'd be sad to see pro-BW die. Despite all the experts in this thread, it's all conjecture. We won't know for sure until the next season of proleague starts, most likely. It's slated for early-mid November I think, so we'll know for sure what's happening soon.
In case it starts with SC2 I really hope there will be english commentators. I think they would miss a big oppurtunity if there weren't.
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On October 29 2011 07:58 Darth Caedus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:49 Zergneedsfood wrote:On October 29 2011 07:45 Darth Caedus wrote:On October 29 2011 07:28 Brainling wrote:On October 29 2011 07:09 lFrost wrote:On October 29 2011 07:07 Nyovne wrote:On October 29 2011 07:03 Megaliskuu wrote:On October 29 2011 06:37 aTnClouD wrote:
i wonder if they can handle the frustration of losing to bad players time after time since sc2 is designed so people are able to win against much better player with very little effort and some luck. many scbw pros couldn't translate well to sc2 for this reason and i think not every single one of them will like the game enough to dominate the scene. Finally someone smart in this thread. Fully agreed, sadly this was something I already concluded in my early SC2 review (which is still available somewhere on this site http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=75527) after playing an early version of SC2 back at WWI Paris over three years ago. The lack of potential player differential in style and skilllevel seems to be severely hindering for the game as an Esport. yes exactly, the best of bw players might not dominate in sc2 because sc2 simply does not allow good players to differentiate themselves enough from inferior players. mostly due to how the game ai is run and its interface in comparison to bw This is completely wrong. SC2 simply DOES allow good players to differentiate themselves, but no one is doing it yet, because SC2 isn't even TWO YEARS OLD. Brood War is a decade old, with a decade of practicing behind it. Go back at look at the first year of BW, I mean really look. You know what the #1 strategy was? 4 pool. Fucking 4 pool. Ohh so micro intensive. It took BW years to reach the level of intricacy it's at now. A year ago, marine splitting was like woah in SC2. Now it's a required piece of micro, because players have evolved. In a year, we're going to look back at what passes for "top play" in SC2 right now and laugh. A year after that, we'll laugh again. And then again. And in a decade, when SC3 is being released, we'll be having these same stupid, pointless, arguments, with people making the same stupid, pointless and incorrect assumptions about skill ceilings, only this time SC2 will be the crown jewel and we'll all be dumping loaf on SC3. Thank you for properly saying what I was going to try to put into words far less eloquently. As SC2 gets older (years after the last expansion) I expect it to look very similar to BW now. It's just going to be a growing process. It sucks that BW fans have gone through it already and have to endure "worse" (really just less developed play) in SC2 for a while, but at some point a new game was going to be made. Nothing lasts forever. The two games are different to the point where one will never be like the other. It's just the game design. Whether you like one or the other is a matter of personal preferences, but I think it's safe to say that SC2 won't be "like" BW, because of how it's designed. Also, I'd also like to note that SC2 has a bustling e-sports scene and it's a game that's been intensely studied on a level that outmatches that of BW. I think it's safe to say that along with simpler mechanics/less bugs/smarter AI/technology the amount of time that it'll take to see what one can do in this game is going to be a lot faster than in BW. The main complaint that I was trying to respond to was that "worse players can win easily in SC2, not in BW". That is somewhat true right now, but it won't be in a few years when all units and timings are understood and safe builds are known. When people scout better and know all the correct responses the better players will win. Isn't that how BW is now and what most of the fans are mad about? In that respect, I expect SC2 to eventually reach the same place in terms of level of competition and balance that BW is at now. But I do agree that the game will look and feel different due to the AI and interface differences. But right now you can't comment on which game will be a better spectator experience because we do not yet know what good, developed SC2 play will look like.
The most annoying part of this entire thread isn't that BW people are proud of their games state, they damn well should be. It's that they make the continued claim that BW has always been this way, which is a complete farce.
Again, I implore anyone who really cares to go look up some very very early BW strats, videos, etc. You'll see the same homogeneous play, stupid cheesey strats, lack of safe builds, bad scouting, bad micro and bad macro you're seeing out of top SC2 play now. Then go look at year two, and year three, etc. You should be able to clearly watch the progression of the game.
To sit here and spout that SC2 will never have that intricacy of play, because BW has it now after ten years, and SC2 doesn't after one, is so disingenuous it's stupid.
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On October 29 2011 07:34 Doomgiver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:28 figq wrote:Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...:prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (61) 60% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (40) 40% 101 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will...: (Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
that poll is awfully biased. It lacks all the reasonable options.
here you go
Poll: The BW elite in SC2 will...prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room (17) 55% revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate (7) 23% Will do alright but not be anything special, their skills dont translate(I'm a hater) (7) 23% 31 total votes Your vote: The BW elite in SC2 will... (Vote): prove the SC2 engine limits the stratification of skill, and the "elephant" is "stuck in the room
(Vote): revolutionize the scene, reinvent the difficulty of SC2 to a new level; and ultimately dominate
(Vote): Will do alright but not be anything special, their skills dont translate(I'm a hater)
edit: fixed the pool
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On October 29 2011 08:02 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 07:59 Gann1 wrote:On October 29 2011 07:46 Wafflelisk wrote:So wait, Flash is switching over? So, is BW completely dead? I hope not. I mean, I watch and play SC2 more, but mostly because it's easier for an English speaker to follow and the community is larger. BW is still a better game, and I'd be sad to see pro-BW die. Despite all the experts in this thread, it's all conjecture. We won't know for sure until the next season of proleague starts, most likely. It's slated for early-mid November I think, so we'll know for sure what's happening soon. In case it starts with SC2 I really hope there will be english commentators. I think they would miss a big oppurtunity if there weren't.
That would depend on if MBC, OGN, IEG, and Kespa are willing to get English language commentators for Proleague.
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EPT
