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On October 28 2011 22:16 Pelopidas wrote:
This is outrageous. I can't believe that Blizzard can just slap a Starcraft sticker on Command and Conquer 5 and destroy the naturally developed Korean Brood War scene by throwing money. I hope every player, caster and tournament organizer feels ashamed of pretending that SC2 is the true successor of Broodwar in order to make money and gain popularity. If this goes through I will never by another Blizzard product ever again.
This is just too horrible to imagine. Blizzard fucking balances the game for noobs, and terrible players. Can you imagine what would have happened to Brood War if Protoss had been balanced for D level? Blizzard makes incredibly shitty maps so that players can "rush," yet ignores the fact that you can be aggressive on big maps also.
It's like every design decision has been made to dumb the game down so that its popular among casuals. You want to use a shuttle + Reaver, too fucking bad you have a colossus now, its pretty much the same thing. You want to micro carriers, tough shit, the interceptors will now come back, also the goliath can now fly over terrain. You don't like to take more than three bases, cool Browder doesn't like to either, we've changed worker gather rates and added an extra geyser so that taking four or more bases is pointless. You are having problems with seige tanks, no don't use drops or positioning, just make marauders or immortals lol. They have also removed losses from the profiles of noobs, now Joe reddit gold league can feel like a gosu, because that's what makes game good.
I can't believe that every WoW fanboy, Redditor and youtube caster watching noob is getting their way. Oh well, at least I'll have the last laugh when the SC2 foreign scene dies. This has probably damned the Korean scene to a new coke like fiasco as well.
Sadly this post is mostly true. Here is to hoping SC2 improves, and to Browder & Co. openining their eyes. There is hope to me when I see some of the really good games we had in SC2 though.
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On October 28 2011 23:45 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:34 jonaada wrote:On October 28 2011 23:21 Hexxed wrote:On October 28 2011 23:11 rasers wrote:On October 28 2011 23:08 slvcadv wrote:
Bisu, Flash and Jaedong aren't going to win every SC2 tourney out there. They may be very good SC2 players if they switch, but it's not guaranteed that their skill from BW is going to transfer to SC2.
Just look at Nada and July, they haven't won anything in SC2, yet they were BW legends. y legends 6 years ago. and nada is not even playing fulltime? or just lately. July has reached a finals and NaDa isn't playaing full time. It's been said that he spends the largest chunk of his time on school work. For him to make Code S every season while other full time pro gamers have struggled is amazing. Nada is scary. Lol so funny when people say "lol the brood war LEGENDS that are in sc2 atm aren´t dominating, so why should the new ones be any better?" Well the reason why the old BW players switched over to sc2 is because they can´t compete in brood war, they just aren´t good enough. The only thing I remember is MVP taking a game of Flash once in the MSL(mirrors can be unpredictable and random), but then flash won 3 in a row in an easy manner. Just remember, MVP is probably the best brood war player to switch to sc2, but he was quite terrible compared to other brood war pros, and yet he is dominating sc2. Think about that for a second. People are also stating that ForGG is a legend, which is not true. He was played out in proleague in the 2009-2010 season quite a bit, but he doesn´t come close to the top brood war players. He has a fun unique style which will probably carry well over to sc2, but he was never dominating. (excluding that one MSL which I still dont understand how he won) But even ForGG and MVP aren't nearly invincible in SC2. They're being beat by people that normally wouldn't touch them in BW. The skill required for SC2 isn't the same. You don't need 400 APM to make marines 7 minutes in, but you need it to strategically overcome your opponent in the mid and late game.
MVP isn't invincible ?
he pretty much always wins
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On October 29 2011 00:04 BroodWarHD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:00 Merlimoo wrote:On October 28 2011 23:52 BroodWarHD wrote:On October 28 2011 23:44 Merlimoo wrote:On October 28 2011 23:37 corumjhaelen wrote:On October 28 2011 23:29 Merlimoo wrote:
I am an esport fan since its beginning, I'm not that young anymore...
I was originally into the Counter Strike scene, but after a big break (studies), where I've tried BW, W3, COD, I've finally stopped on SC2.
Iy is really my first attempt to really play an RTS game. Having improved a lot in the past months, I think I can understand everything that is going on in this game now. After having fed on day9 daylies, I just watch some old ones featuring BW. And omg...
With everything that I've heard about BW and its advantages, it is really painful for me to watch a BW game. Not for the graphics (I play Minecraft for god sake), but for everything else. Everything seems so frigide and poor. I don't really recognized the core philosophy of each race, that I've learn form sc2 obviously. Really not for me watching.
If I try to recall how it was to play BW when I tried, it was like trying the play chess with mitten!! There so much things that come into your way when you want to apply a strategy. That is a bit of weird for a rts game. Not fun to play either... I prefer spending my extra apm trying to do better stuff than overcoming a poor AI, pathfinding, and UI, like w3 micro where your brain is actually usefull. I think that if the game were revamped with a better UI, it will just become pointless... From what I've heard, every BWfanboy is just sad for the lack of neediness of "gosu/nerdy" spam clicks to produce a marine and make him move...
So please. Have a though for theses guys who really does not care a single second about BW and are happy with SC2. If you don't like it, we don't care, stay on BW, we have lived without you until now anyway. Quit, boycott blizzard for whatever reason you believe is right. Just stop annoying us.
That being said, I would be more that happy to see the BW scene finally try to fit into our sc2 community. If theses BW stars are that good on a strategic level, I'm looking forward to it.
But from what I can see, if you take the superstar boxer, even if he's probably not a the same level as he was, he should still have the mind the come up with great strategies. From what I can see, he's just a cheeser who try to win with his micro in sc2. Was it the reason why he was so good in BW ? If it is so, it is definitely not my kind of strategy game. LOOOOL What's so funny is one of the reason why I think SC2 is ununinteresting strategically is that Boxer play has been so uninspired in SC2. He was the guy who would always find a new clever gimmick even way pas his prime (typical example is his game against Hiya on Blue Storm). And yeah, I guess he kinda looks like that in SC2. At least you seem to know how clueless you are about bw. If BW is so so great and perfect, it will not die, don't worry  I'm happy I can have my SC2 in the mean time Look at Counter Strike vs Counter Strike Source, just when I left. Source was prettier, kinda have the same rules, but was wwwaaaay different for a good cs player. That is why there were not a really big switch and why the original cs scene is/was still predominant. CS was better than CSS, it stay, while CSS is living its smaller life. The case should be the same for SC2/BW. It's just that SC2 is having a way better life that CSS relatively to its predecessor. If BW dies, we just won't have to argue anymore. B ecause CS was already a very accessible and easy to play game as far as shooters go. Its design was perfect for becoming the mainstream fps that everyone knows and plays. As such, it was competitive with CSS: BW, however, is a much more diehard and hardcore game relative to its genre, with a far harder learning curve and usability. For the Korean game scene that is grind-game oriented this is not as big a barrier, but for western gamers used to easy to play streamlined games its popularity is limited, compared to the much more straightforward and less mechanic intensive SC2. Hence the two games not being within a competitive paradigm. Mmm... I acknowledge that I'm a BW noob, but when it's come to CS... Don't think you understand the game just because you know a bullet kill a guy and that the point is to plant a bomb or defuse it. It may be easy to play, but I dare you to reach the skilled cap required to play pro, without taking into account the amount of team play you have to have. Theses two games are just equality spectatable (like you said fps are dummy proof to spectate), even CSS is even better since it has better graphics a few new cool tools. From theses who want to stay in their cave with their rts (elitists, dinausors and such), CS is a good example of a f***ing noob/intollerrant/big community that is ensure to never die, and still have a really great game to play at high level. Noob friendly does not mean, poor in depth. And if you think that cs is poor in depth at high level, that means that you can't understand it (cauz' you're noob)  Come on man.. sure the skill cap may be high due to the very competitive scene it has, but the gameplay itself is far more limited and slower paced than Quake-style games
Slower paced that Q3 sure. Even more with the new camper playstyle nowadays... it's even boring too watch. Q3 has always been funier to watch. But it has died. And no 1v1 fps have managed to take the throne for a very long time.
But team games in general are far more entertaining and have more depth to it. The mechanics behind a 1v1 in q3 are pretty simple: aim and map control. A Q3 CTF was really more interesting, I wonder why it didn't took off. Maybe cause the respawn thing in a team game is really hard to follow and rely less on strategy. According to me, what CS had the first before every other fps, is the round by round strategical depth + economy management between rounds, even if the latter part could be a little bit improved.
Even with the same methods (I mean CSS is just a nicer copy of CS), it didn't work. And BW community just want a better BW, what make you think it could work ? Even better, SC2 has grown hard and a lot of people love it. Don't you think you are missing something by being too close minded and attached to BW ?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51702 Posts
On October 29 2011 00:13 empty.bottle wrote:
No news about Samsung ?
stork too busy playing mobile games.
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On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career.
If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying.
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On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
Lol, TBLS would just crush anyone else.
Oh and since you need to remind me that the S in RTS stands for strategy, do I need to remind you that the RT stand for real-time aka everything happens at the same time so the higher is my apm the better I can be at managing everyting ?
If you want to execute a strategy without requiring APM you could always turn based strategy games or even chess.
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On October 29 2011 00:14 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career. If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying.
You mean like Huk and Stephano who are the ones that win theses days... ?!?
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Regarding derailment:
Could someone please enlight me? There is n.die_Jaedong, n.die_Soo, Bisu[shield], Slayers_Boxer, etc... Are those Fish server Clan tags?
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On October 29 2011 00:16 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:14 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career. If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying. You mean like Huk and Stephano who are the ones that win theses days... ?!?
I'm talking about Korea
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On October 29 2011 00:12 ToguRo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:45 aksfjh wrote:On October 28 2011 23:34 jonaada wrote:On October 28 2011 23:21 Hexxed wrote:On October 28 2011 23:11 rasers wrote:On October 28 2011 23:08 slvcadv wrote:
Bisu, Flash and Jaedong aren't going to win every SC2 tourney out there. They may be very good SC2 players if they switch, but it's not guaranteed that their skill from BW is going to transfer to SC2.
Just look at Nada and July, they haven't won anything in SC2, yet they were BW legends. y legends 6 years ago. and nada is not even playing fulltime? or just lately. July has reached a finals and NaDa isn't playaing full time. It's been said that he spends the largest chunk of his time on school work. For him to make Code S every season while other full time pro gamers have struggled is amazing. Nada is scary. Lol so funny when people say "lol the brood war LEGENDS that are in sc2 atm aren´t dominating, so why should the new ones be any better?" Well the reason why the old BW players switched over to sc2 is because they can´t compete in brood war, they just aren´t good enough. The only thing I remember is MVP taking a game of Flash once in the MSL(mirrors can be unpredictable and random), but then flash won 3 in a row in an easy manner. Just remember, MVP is probably the best brood war player to switch to sc2, but he was quite terrible compared to other brood war pros, and yet he is dominating sc2. Think about that for a second. People are also stating that ForGG is a legend, which is not true. He was played out in proleague in the 2009-2010 season quite a bit, but he doesn´t come close to the top brood war players. He has a fun unique style which will probably carry well over to sc2, but he was never dominating. (excluding that one MSL which I still dont understand how he won) But even ForGG and MVP aren't nearly invincible in SC2. They're being beat by people that normally wouldn't touch them in BW. The skill required for SC2 isn't the same. You don't need 400 APM to make marines 7 minutes in, but you need it to strategically overcome your opponent in the mid and late game. MVP isn't invincible ? he pretty much always wins
these people think, bw was just mechanics and somehow magically it didn't have any strategical depth.
They think somehow sc2 is more strategical by not being as demanding mechanically.
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On October 29 2011 00:16 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:16 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:14 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career. If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying. You mean like Huk and Stephano who are the ones that win theses days... ?!? I'm talking about Korea
So a small community like a he was talking about...
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On October 29 2011 00:11 Alpino wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 22:16 Pelopidas wrote:
This is outrageous. I can't believe that Blizzard can just slap a Starcraft sticker on Command and Conquer 5 and destroy the naturally developed Korean Brood War scene by throwing money. I hope every player, caster and tournament organizer feels ashamed of pretending that SC2 is the true successor of Broodwar in order to make money and gain popularity. If this goes through I will never by another Blizzard product ever again.
This is just too horrible to imagine. Blizzard fucking balances the game for noobs, and terrible players. Can you imagine what would have happened to Brood War if Protoss had been balanced for D level? Blizzard makes incredibly shitty maps so that players can "rush," yet ignores the fact that you can be aggressive on big maps also.
It's like every design decision has been made to dumb the game down so that its popular among casuals. You want to use a shuttle + Reaver, too fucking bad you have a colossus now, its pretty much the same thing. You want to micro carriers, tough shit, the interceptors will now come back, also the goliath can now fly over terrain. You don't like to take more than three bases, cool Browder doesn't like to either, we've changed worker gather rates and added an extra geyser so that taking four or more bases is pointless. You are having problems with seige tanks, no don't use drops or positioning, just make marauders or immortals lol. They have also removed losses from the profiles of noobs, now Joe reddit gold league can feel like a gosu, because that's what makes game good.
I can't believe that every WoW fanboy, Redditor and youtube caster watching noob is getting their way. Oh well, at least I'll have the last laugh when the SC2 foreign scene dies. This has probably damned the Korean scene to a new coke like fiasco as well. Sadly this post is mostly true. Here is to hoping SC2 improves, and to Browder & Co. openining their eyes. There is hope to me when I see some of the really good games we had in SC2 though.
not sure if retard of serious
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On October 29 2011 00:16 blubbdavid wrote:
Regarding derailment:
Could someone please enlight me? There is n.die_Jaedong, n.die_Soo, Bisu[shield], Slayers_Boxer, etc... Are those Fish server Clan tags?
you forgot Neo.G_Soulkey... :O
shame on you
Edited: Sorry Rawr, small brain fail :D
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On October 29 2011 00:12 ToguRo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:45 aksfjh wrote:On October 28 2011 23:34 jonaada wrote:On October 28 2011 23:21 Hexxed wrote:On October 28 2011 23:11 rasers wrote:On October 28 2011 23:08 slvcadv wrote:
Bisu, Flash and Jaedong aren't going to win every SC2 tourney out there. They may be very good SC2 players if they switch, but it's not guaranteed that their skill from BW is going to transfer to SC2.
Just look at Nada and July, they haven't won anything in SC2, yet they were BW legends. y legends 6 years ago. and nada is not even playing fulltime? or just lately. July has reached a finals and NaDa isn't playaing full time. It's been said that he spends the largest chunk of his time on school work. For him to make Code S every season while other full time pro gamers have struggled is amazing. Nada is scary. Lol so funny when people say "lol the brood war LEGENDS that are in sc2 atm aren´t dominating, so why should the new ones be any better?" Well the reason why the old BW players switched over to sc2 is because they can´t compete in brood war, they just aren´t good enough. The only thing I remember is MVP taking a game of Flash once in the MSL(mirrors can be unpredictable and random), but then flash won 3 in a row in an easy manner. Just remember, MVP is probably the best brood war player to switch to sc2, but he was quite terrible compared to other brood war pros, and yet he is dominating sc2. Think about that for a second. People are also stating that ForGG is a legend, which is not true. He was played out in proleague in the 2009-2010 season quite a bit, but he doesn´t come close to the top brood war players. He has a fun unique style which will probably carry well over to sc2, but he was never dominating. (excluding that one MSL which I still dont understand how he won) But even ForGG and MVP aren't nearly invincible in SC2. They're being beat by people that normally wouldn't touch them in BW. The skill required for SC2 isn't the same. You don't need 400 APM to make marines 7 minutes in, but you need it to strategically overcome your opponent in the mid and late game. MVP isn't invincible ? he pretty much always wins
Well, if the BW teams really do switch over for real, then you will learn the meaning of "Woongjin Terran", of which, MVP was one.
A Woongjin Terran is probably defined as a scrub, chobo Terran player who happened to be on the A-team solely because they're in Woongjin and because KeSPA had a rule where you had to send out at least one of each race in each ProLeague match. MVP was the cookie-cutter Woongjin Terran player.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51702 Posts
On October 29 2011 00:16 blubbdavid wrote:
Regarding derailment:
Could someone please enlight me? There is n.die_Jaedong, n.die_Soo, Bisu[shield], Slayers_Boxer, etc... Are those Fish server Clan tags?
former b.net clan tags.Same thing.
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On October 28 2011 23:54 crms wrote:
if these players are seriously masters after 2 weeks on korean ladder, I fear for westerns in the next year or two...
korean domination inc.
And most of the top koreans too 
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On October 29 2011 00:17 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:16 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:16 Merlimoo wrote:On October 29 2011 00:14 setzer wrote:On October 29 2011 00:01 GTLAllDayEveryDay wrote:
I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling. Do you realize the current top players in the world are all former BW pros? None of them were every as skilled or dedicated as the current best in BW and isn't going to change if the players you mentioned switch in the prime of their career. If you are going to continue posting at least put more thought into what you are saying. You mean like Huk and Stephano who are the ones that win theses days... ?!? I'm talking about Korea So a small community like a he was talking about...
Like he said. Everyone said : "hoo korean are coming in the west, they will kill everyone". The facts are, they aren't anymore. Point.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51702 Posts
On October 29 2011 00:17 SabreUK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2011 00:16 blubbdavid wrote:
Regarding derailment:
Could someone please enlight me? There is n.die_Jaedong, n.die_Soo, Bisu[shield], Slayers_Boxer, etc... Are those Fish server Clan tags? you forgot N.Die_Soulkey... :O shame on you
its Neo.G_Soulkey.
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On October 28 2011 23:18 how2TL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:10 thoradycus wrote:On October 28 2011 23:08 slvcadv wrote:
Bisu, Flash and Jaedong aren't going to win every SC2 tourney out there. They may be very good SC2 players if they switch, but it's not guaranteed that their skill from BW is going to transfer to SC2.
Just look at Nada and July, they haven't won anything in SC2, yet they were BW legends. as much as i like nada hes not even half of flash Tied for OSL's and MSL's won, though. Can't say anything about Nada vs Flash in SC2 until we at least see a few games.
flash understands BW much more than nada, and he's able to execute it. flash understands every match up and is at least five steps ahead, not just constrained to within a single game, but throughout the entire tournament. nada, on the other hand, with age, has been mechanically falling behind prior to his switch to SC2. watch some of his last dozen games or so and a lot rely heavily on cheese or timing attacks. despite SC2's macro help, flash's understanding of SC2 (if he changes) will be much more comprehensive than nada's, should he get sufficient practice, and he will defeat nada hands-down in no time. as someone said in an article, it's not a question of how, but when, should he make the change.
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EPT
