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On October 28 2011 23:44 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:37 corumjhaelen wrote:On October 28 2011 23:29 Merlimoo wrote:
I am an esport fan since its beginning, I'm not that young anymore...
I was originally into the Counter Strike scene, but after a big break (studies), where I've tried BW, W3, COD, I've finally stopped on SC2.
Iy is really my first attempt to really play an RTS game. Having improved a lot in the past months, I think I can understand everything that is going on in this game now. After having fed on day9 daylies, I just watch some old ones featuring BW. And omg...
With everything that I've heard about BW and its advantages, it is really painful for me to watch a BW game. Not for the graphics (I play Minecraft for god sake), but for everything else. Everything seems so frigide and poor. I don't really recognized the core philosophy of each race, that I've learn form sc2 obviously. Really not for me watching.
If I try to recall how it was to play BW when I tried, it was like trying the play chess with mitten!! There so much things that come into your way when you want to apply a strategy. That is a bit of weird for a rts game. Not fun to play either... I prefer spending my extra apm trying to do better stuff than overcoming a poor AI, pathfinding, and UI, like w3 micro where your brain is actually usefull. I think that if the game were revamped with a better UI, it will just become pointless... From what I've heard, every BWfanboy is just sad for the lack of neediness of "gosu/nerdy" spam clicks to produce a marine and make him move...
So please. Have a though for theses guys who really does not care a single second about BW and are happy with SC2. If you don't like it, we don't care, stay on BW, we have lived without you until now anyway. Quit, boycott blizzard for whatever reason you believe is right. Just stop annoying us.
That being said, I would be more that happy to see the BW scene finally try to fit into our sc2 community. If theses BW stars are that good on a strategic level, I'm looking forward to it.
But from what I can see, if you take the superstar boxer, even if he's probably not a the same level as he was, he should still have the mind the come up with great strategies. From what I can see, he's just a cheeser who try to win with his micro in sc2. Was it the reason why he was so good in BW ? If it is so, it is definitely not my kind of strategy game. LOOOOL What's so funny is one of the reason why I think SC2 is ununinteresting strategically is that Boxer play has been so uninspired in SC2. He was the guy who would always find a new clever gimmick even way pas his prime (typical example is his game against Hiya on Blue Storm). And yeah, I guess he kinda looks like that in SC2. At least you seem to know how clueless you are about bw. If BW is so so great and perfect, it will not die, don't worry  I'm happy I can have my SC2 in the mean time Look at Counter Strike vs Counter Strike Source, just when I left. Source was prettier, kinda have the same rules, but was wwwaaaay different for a good cs player. That is why there were not a really big switch and why the original cs scene is/was still predominant. CS was better than CSS, it stay, while CSS is living its smaller life. The case should be the same for SC2/BW. It's just that SC2 is having a way better life that CSS relatively to its predecessor. If BW dies, we just won't have to argue anymore.
CS:S declined because of the fact that the community, globally came to side with CS1.6. With SC2, it's almost the opposite. The only place where BW is more popular is on the TL BW forums and Korea.
Every former foreigner BW player, despite their whines about SC2's perceived imbalances, have come to embrace SC2 as the future.
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On October 28 2011 23:56 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:55 Condor Hero wrote:On October 28 2011 23:30 CaucasianAsian wrote:On October 28 2011 23:26 kakaman wrote:
How long would it take for the Bisu TL fanclub to surpass Idra's?
I can honestly see A-class players like Sea who have no chance of winning Proleague/OSL switch over first, because the upside is too high. May take longer for true S Class players to switch, since they still command 200K+ salaries. They'll probably wait until they finish their contracts to switch. A Class players like Sea? Sea is probably top 3 terrans. He's S Class for sure, and has gone extremely far in many OSL/MSL's. He somehow seems to choke and get nervous in RO4 though. But he is by far one of the best players in the world right now. S Class Terran or straight up S Class? I'd still take Leta over him And as of last season Light and maybe Mind and Baby :-(
Off-topic but w/e.
Light is always hit or miss, he might have the best late game TvZ but a disaster vs P.
Mind is definition of mediocrity.
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this is huge, if they switch... oh my god.
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On October 28 2011 23:56 Stiluz wrote:
I don't feel this is very good news... Kespa's involvement for one thing (their progamer license bullshit, the pp = lose the game stuff etc...), and the foreign scene has finally grown huge. If the best Koreans switch right now, even the best foreigners will struggle more.
I want to see great games by great players, but I can relate more to non-Koreans, and I think the same goes for many viewers (none of my more casual friends cares about Koreans in the tournaments for example, but can relate more to players liek Idra, Huk, Whitera, Stephano etc). I wish they'll take more time before switching over to SC2.
Frankly, I believe those that only care about foreigners are nationalistic at best, and racist at worst.
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On October 28 2011 23:55 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:44 Klipsys wrote:On October 28 2011 23:42 tyCe wrote:On October 28 2011 23:38 Vul wrote:On October 28 2011 23:18 how2TL wrote:On October 28 2011 23:10 thoradycus wrote:On October 28 2011 23:08 slvcadv wrote:
Bisu, Flash and Jaedong aren't going to win every SC2 tourney out there. They may be very good SC2 players if they switch, but it's not guaranteed that their skill from BW is going to transfer to SC2.
Just look at Nada and July, they haven't won anything in SC2, yet they were BW legends. as much as i like nada hes not even half of flash Tied for OSL's and MSL's won, though. Can't say anything about Nada vs Flash in SC2 until we at least see a few games. I think Flash would currently be the best known Starcraft player to switch, simply because most of the other ones (like Nada, July, Boxer) were in the twilights of their careers, or weren't that good to begin with (MC lol). Flash has been injured, but Nada had simply become a less terrifying player. To spell it out to SC2 fans who don't know much about BW. If FlaSh switched to SC2, it would be the biggest switch possible. No other BW player in the world would cause as much controversy as FlaSh if he actually does switch. If FlaSh switched, it would be like Messi deciding to play volleyball. It would be as if the NZ national rugby team decided to play league and stomp it for the lulz. It would be like as if Kobe decided to play netball because he wanted some new titles. You're assuming quite a bit about his relative skill in a new title... Maybe a minor overstatement, but honestly the sheer mechanics and strategic depth that Flash and other top tier BW players command far outweighs anything currently existing in the SC2 community. Of course noone can perfectly read the future and anything is possible, but most likely if and of the S class BW players made the switch, the GSL podiums would look very different within a few months (look at ForGG's rise to Code A).
so if forgg loses first round, what happens then? Does that mean the pdoums wont go unchanged. Apparently he has been playing for like 10 months already so its not like he picked the game a month or two ago hes actively been playing for nearly a year and he still may not get out or even stay on Code A yet.... will have to see.
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Wow this is exciting! XD
Bring it Flash!
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I cant wait to see all the race switches !!
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I could care less about the points people keep trying to make about the relative game-independant RTS skill BW pros have over SC2 pros. But there is absolutely no question that the people in discussion here are among the most committed and intelligent eSports athletes the world has ever seen, and such an influx of talent and passion into the SC2 world can only increase the level at which the game is played.
I'm sad for BW, though. I discovered the BW scene way too late, and now that I'm starting to really enjoy watching it, it looks more and more likely that it really is going to end up being phased out in favor of its sequel. I had always hoped the two games would just live on in parallel, but there's all this chatter about pros preparing to compete in SC2, and I can't imagine they'll continue to compete in BW at the same time.
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On October 28 2011 23:52 BroodWarHD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:44 Merlimoo wrote:On October 28 2011 23:37 corumjhaelen wrote:On October 28 2011 23:29 Merlimoo wrote:
I am an esport fan since its beginning, I'm not that young anymore...
I was originally into the Counter Strike scene, but after a big break (studies), where I've tried BW, W3, COD, I've finally stopped on SC2.
Iy is really my first attempt to really play an RTS game. Having improved a lot in the past months, I think I can understand everything that is going on in this game now. After having fed on day9 daylies, I just watch some old ones featuring BW. And omg...
With everything that I've heard about BW and its advantages, it is really painful for me to watch a BW game. Not for the graphics (I play Minecraft for god sake), but for everything else. Everything seems so frigide and poor. I don't really recognized the core philosophy of each race, that I've learn form sc2 obviously. Really not for me watching.
If I try to recall how it was to play BW when I tried, it was like trying the play chess with mitten!! There so much things that come into your way when you want to apply a strategy. That is a bit of weird for a rts game. Not fun to play either... I prefer spending my extra apm trying to do better stuff than overcoming a poor AI, pathfinding, and UI, like w3 micro where your brain is actually usefull. I think that if the game were revamped with a better UI, it will just become pointless... From what I've heard, every BWfanboy is just sad for the lack of neediness of "gosu/nerdy" spam clicks to produce a marine and make him move...
So please. Have a though for theses guys who really does not care a single second about BW and are happy with SC2. If you don't like it, we don't care, stay on BW, we have lived without you until now anyway. Quit, boycott blizzard for whatever reason you believe is right. Just stop annoying us.
That being said, I would be more that happy to see the BW scene finally try to fit into our sc2 community. If theses BW stars are that good on a strategic level, I'm looking forward to it.
But from what I can see, if you take the superstar boxer, even if he's probably not a the same level as he was, he should still have the mind the come up with great strategies. From what I can see, he's just a cheeser who try to win with his micro in sc2. Was it the reason why he was so good in BW ? If it is so, it is definitely not my kind of strategy game. LOOOOL What's so funny is one of the reason why I think SC2 is ununinteresting strategically is that Boxer play has been so uninspired in SC2. He was the guy who would always find a new clever gimmick even way pas his prime (typical example is his game against Hiya on Blue Storm). And yeah, I guess he kinda looks like that in SC2. At least you seem to know how clueless you are about bw. If BW is so so great and perfect, it will not die, don't worry I'm happy I can have my SC2 in the mean time Look at Counter Strike vs Counter Strike Source, just when I left. Source was prettier, kinda have the same rules, but was wwwaaaay different for a good cs player. That is why there were not a really big switch and why the original cs scene is/was still predominant. CS was better than CSS, it stay, while CSS is living its smaller life. The case should be the same for SC2/BW. It's just that SC2 is having a way better life that CSS relatively to its predecessor. If BW dies, we just won't have to argue anymore. B ecause CS was already a very accessible and easy to play game as far as shooters go. Its design was perfect for becoming the mainstream fps that everyone knows and plays. As such, it was competitive with CSS: BW, however, is a much more diehard and hardcore game relative to its genre, with a far harder learning curve and usability. For the Korean game scene that is grind-game oriented this is not as big a barrier, but for western gamers used to easy to play streamlined games its popularity is limited, compared to the much more straightforward and less mechanic intensive SC2. Hence the two games not being within a competitive paradigm.
Mmm... I acknowledge that I'm a BW noob, but when it's come to CS... Don't think you understand the game just because you know a bullet kill a guy and that the point is to plant a bomb or defuse it.
It may be easy to play, but I dare you to reach the skilled cap required to play pro, without taking into account the amount of team play you have to have.
Theses two games are just equality spectatable (like you said fps are dummy proof to spectate), even CSS is even better since it has better graphics a few new cool tools.
From theses who want to stay in their cave with their rts (elitists, dinausors and such), CS is a good example of a f***ing noob/intollerrant/big community that is ensure to never die, and still have a really great game to play at high level. Noob friendly does not mean, poor in depth. And if you think that cs is poor in depth at high level, that means that you can't understand it (cauz' you're noob) 
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I cant wait for the BW pros to switch over so they can get man handled. It doesnt take too much talent to be the top player at a game that only a handful of players play. SC2 increased the player count many times over. It's funny to see all these BW fanboys speaking hypothetical about their heroes dominating the SC2, but you damn well know in their hearts they're hoping they don't switch because then if players like FlaSh, Jaedong, Bisu switch and become good, but don't reach the mind boggling heights of their BW glory, it just proves that they're not RTS gods, just exceptional BW players that were able to excel in a mechanically difficult game -- remember this is a strategy game, it shouldn't take 400 APM to execute a strategy. Also BW became a very niche thing over the years, like curling.
User was banned for this post.
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This is surreal to read. That would be hilarious if each proteam produced 10-15 good to great players "overnight"(even cpl months is relatively short), it would rock the landscape. Almost doubling the number of serious proteams.
Kind of sounds like players are playing both games though? I thought they'd get a new squad (or divide the current one up). I hope that this isn't a bad sign for BW... However if it must be, this is perhaps the best way to do it. Everyone joining arms and charge together, instead of slowly quitting 1 by 1.
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seriously get every good forgeiner to korea right now... the line needs to be held
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On October 28 2011 23:56 DreamOen wrote:
My only concern its, if blizzard can be up to the expectations . These guys are just RTS monsters, they can come out with anything out of nowhere, Im worried about the game beeing limited from the roots cause the ball system and such. Dunno, would love to better changes focused into the really top notch skilled players in the HOTS.
ball system isn't a problem with the game design, it's a problem to overcome. If you had 10000 apm you could split your lings in a way that they hardcounter tanks, or marines against colossus, or your sentries never get hit more then 1 by each fungal.
It's a reverse way of looking at it, but really, if anyone can "fight the AI" and keep his forces spread when they should be, that's something impressive.
In bw you had to fight the AI because it wasn't good enough, in sc2 you have to fight it because it is too good.
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On October 28 2011 23:58 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:56 corumjhaelen wrote:On October 28 2011 23:55 Condor Hero wrote:On October 28 2011 23:30 CaucasianAsian wrote:On October 28 2011 23:26 kakaman wrote:
How long would it take for the Bisu TL fanclub to surpass Idra's?
I can honestly see A-class players like Sea who have no chance of winning Proleague/OSL switch over first, because the upside is too high. May take longer for true S Class players to switch, since they still command 200K+ salaries. They'll probably wait until they finish their contracts to switch. A Class players like Sea? Sea is probably top 3 terrans. He's S Class for sure, and has gone extremely far in many OSL/MSL's. He somehow seems to choke and get nervous in RO4 though. But he is by far one of the best players in the world right now. S Class Terran or straight up S Class? I'd still take Leta over him And as of last season Light and maybe Mind and Baby :-( Off-topic but w/e. Light is always hit or miss, he might have the best late game TvZ but a disaster vs P. Mind is definition of mediocrity.
Light TvP has really improved on Stars, a bit at the expense of his TvZ though. Sea on the other hand seemed to be unable to win a game against zerg at the end of last season, and was overall playing pretty poorly, except in TvT. Mind experienced a pretty big revival and has shown solid play in all match-ups. But yeah, he's as close as winning a Starleague as I am to get B-.
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I'm sad
I'm happy
I love BW but hate the current volatile situation.
If a switch to sc2 is coming, and I think it will, I rather have it sooner than later.
JD switching over is a dream for me, but this is what worries me. Afaik he is still teamless and probably havn't started practicing any sc2. I think there is a real chance that he will quit instead of switching and.. damn that makes me very sad.
I want him and my other heroes in sc2, and I want them to succeed. Finally I'll be able to show my sc2-only friends what I've been talking about all these years.
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lol I seem to recall a great many posters claiming this will never happen. I think it's awesome, but I hope they still put up a good show in BW for some time regardless. Other than that can't wait to see some of my favorite players wreck some shit! Get hype son!
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What am I doing reading this thread? I better stay out, or this will end in a ban for me. >_<
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Goodbye foreigners.
It was cute while it lasted.
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On October 29 2011 00:00 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 23:52 BroodWarHD wrote:On October 28 2011 23:44 Merlimoo wrote:On October 28 2011 23:37 corumjhaelen wrote:On October 28 2011 23:29 Merlimoo wrote:
I am an esport fan since its beginning, I'm not that young anymore...
I was originally into the Counter Strike scene, but after a big break (studies), where I've tried BW, W3, COD, I've finally stopped on SC2.
Iy is really my first attempt to really play an RTS game. Having improved a lot in the past months, I think I can understand everything that is going on in this game now. After having fed on day9 daylies, I just watch some old ones featuring BW. And omg...
With everything that I've heard about BW and its advantages, it is really painful for me to watch a BW game. Not for the graphics (I play Minecraft for god sake), but for everything else. Everything seems so frigide and poor. I don't really recognized the core philosophy of each race, that I've learn form sc2 obviously. Really not for me watching.
If I try to recall how it was to play BW when I tried, it was like trying the play chess with mitten!! There so much things that come into your way when you want to apply a strategy. That is a bit of weird for a rts game. Not fun to play either... I prefer spending my extra apm trying to do better stuff than overcoming a poor AI, pathfinding, and UI, like w3 micro where your brain is actually usefull. I think that if the game were revamped with a better UI, it will just become pointless... From what I've heard, every BWfanboy is just sad for the lack of neediness of "gosu/nerdy" spam clicks to produce a marine and make him move...
So please. Have a though for theses guys who really does not care a single second about BW and are happy with SC2. If you don't like it, we don't care, stay on BW, we have lived without you until now anyway. Quit, boycott blizzard for whatever reason you believe is right. Just stop annoying us.
That being said, I would be more that happy to see the BW scene finally try to fit into our sc2 community. If theses BW stars are that good on a strategic level, I'm looking forward to it.
But from what I can see, if you take the superstar boxer, even if he's probably not a the same level as he was, he should still have the mind the come up with great strategies. From what I can see, he's just a cheeser who try to win with his micro in sc2. Was it the reason why he was so good in BW ? If it is so, it is definitely not my kind of strategy game. LOOOOL What's so funny is one of the reason why I think SC2 is ununinteresting strategically is that Boxer play has been so uninspired in SC2. He was the guy who would always find a new clever gimmick even way pas his prime (typical example is his game against Hiya on Blue Storm). And yeah, I guess he kinda looks like that in SC2. At least you seem to know how clueless you are about bw. If BW is so so great and perfect, it will not die, don't worry I'm happy I can have my SC2 in the mean time Look at Counter Strike vs Counter Strike Source, just when I left. Source was prettier, kinda have the same rules, but was wwwaaaay different for a good cs player. That is why there were not a really big switch and why the original cs scene is/was still predominant. CS was better than CSS, it stay, while CSS is living its smaller life. The case should be the same for SC2/BW. It's just that SC2 is having a way better life that CSS relatively to its predecessor. If BW dies, we just won't have to argue anymore. B ecause CS was already a very accessible and easy to play game as far as shooters go. Its design was perfect for becoming the mainstream fps that everyone knows and plays. As such, it was competitive with CSS: BW, however, is a much more diehard and hardcore game relative to its genre, with a far harder learning curve and usability. For the Korean game scene that is grind-game oriented this is not as big a barrier, but for western gamers used to easy to play streamlined games its popularity is limited, compared to the much more straightforward and less mechanic intensive SC2. Hence the two games not being within a competitive paradigm. Mmm... I acknowledge that I'm a BW noob, but when it's come to CS... Don't think you understand the game just because you know a bullet kill a guy and that the point is to plant a bomb or defuse it. It may be easy to play, but I dare you to reach the skilled cap required to play pro, without taking into account the amount of team play you have to have. Theses two games are just equality spectatable (like you said fps are dummy proof to spectate), even CSS is even better since it has better graphics a few new cool tools. From theses who want to stay in their cave with their rts (elitists, dinausors and such), CS is a good example of a f***ing noob/intollerrant/big community that is ensure to never die, and still have a really great game to play at high level. Noob friendly does not mean, poor in depth. And if you think that cs is poor in depth at high level, that means that you can't understand it (cauz' you're noob)
Come on man.. sure the skill cap may be high due to the very competitive scene it has, but the gameplay itself is far more limited and slower paced than Quake-style games
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EPT
