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On October 25 2011 18:48 Elldar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:23 Whiplash wrote:
Mmm blizzard should have just made the phoenix actually counter the muta instead of adding a whole new unit I think... Phoenix counters mutas hard in equal numbers or slighlty less, the only problem I see if the zerg goes crazy mutalisk path and get like 30 mutas then it could get cumbersome for the protoss because 30 phoenix is not that good late game, and take long time to get to.
The problem is here (late game) that the zerg can tech switch so incred. fast and build 20-30 mutas in 1 minut.
To counter that the potentital muta threat the toss player needs to have 10 + phoenixs thorugh the whole game. This just isn't efficient, as the phoenix isn't a strong enough allround unit (unlike the stalker/marine, and to some extent, the thor).
But I agree that I would rather have a change to the phoenix. Whether it should be better against big masses of mutas (what about increasing aa range by 0.5?, making kiting slightly easier, rewarding good micro. Right now it almost seems impossilbe), or give it another kind of ability which makes it stronger vs ground, i optionable.
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On October 25 2011 18:55 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Marines have to get lucky to kill mutas. Good mutas always skirt around you until you leave, and drop one, at best, for a stim attack.
Thors just zone an area out until they realize he's alone, then they counter their hard counter. Mutas are incredibly hard to deal with as terran, no bullshit or joking here. I much rather infestor, as I know I can split and stim box etc and win with micro most times. Mutas? You have to get plain lucky to kill them
Watch IMMvp vs DRG (best muta control in the world) on megalopolis mlg Anaheim and tell me mutas cannot be defeated unless you are lucky.
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On October 25 2011 18:32 LEEKsc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:28 Let it Raine wrote:
mutas in zvp right now
op vs terrible protoss players
good vs mediocre toss players
terrible vs good toss players
they go from good unit to: "all i can do now is base race and hope he doesnt bring probes + have money banked"
protoss can make extremely cost efficient compositions vs any zerg army comp. somewhat true in my opinion, on some maps base trades are incredibly effective, and they serve as a really nice mid-late game harassment tool if you know how to use them properly (and this is as you say, really efficient vs "terrible" (lesser skilled) protoss players)
I disagree completly, muta's are incredibly powerful in PvZ the only reason they aren't used as much is because 6 gate kills you. Idra and Artosis even gave it as an example on their show 'imbalanced' as something that could have been imba if it wasn't for 6 gate.
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If you look at Broodwar TvZ, Terran had a direct counter to mass mutalisks : irradiate (a spell from the raven that killed a muta and damaged all the nearby ones), thors are kinda the same thing, except they are slow as hell and have no other use (whereas irradiate was pivital to fight zerg lurkers and defilers).
The solution terran found in SC2 is to force the mutalisks away from their bases by dropping like crazy, MMA style. Now this may be balanced in the sense that Z and T have the same chances of winning and because there is a lot of micro/decision making involved, however I don't like it forces Terran to adopt a particular style of play.
I hope the warhound will be better against mutas than the thor, but I'd really like to see the raven and its seeker missile reworked in hots...
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The thing is, mutas gives you such a great advantage, that's it's easy to come to a point, where simple mass mutas can beat mass thors. Mass mutas can beat mass phoenix/archon/blink stalkers.
Combine that with the larvae mechanic and it just sets the zerg up to the greatest macro game, it doesn't matter, what the composition is, banelings kills thors at that point.
The only reason, it's not the greatest choice in ZvZ would be because of Fungal.
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Mutalisks are too strong. they are primarily a harass unit. there is something wrong if you can make 100 supply of a harass unit assuming you have around 60 supply of workers and face roll opponents.
Thors and phoenix never fulfilled their role due to the fact of magic box which basically negated thor as a unit and phoenic micro means you are basically harming yourself.. you need to be spending that time on macroing and doing other things..
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On October 25 2011 19:02 ejozl wrote:
The thing is, mutas gives you such a great advantage, that's it's easy to come to a point, where simple mass mutas can beat mass thors. Mass mutas can beat mass phoenix/archon/blink stalkers.
Combine that with the larvae mechanic and it just sets the zerg up to the greatest macro game, it doesn't matter, what the composition is, banelings kills thors at that point.
The only reason, it's not the greatest choice in ZvZ would be because of Fungal.
Just mass muta never going to beat thors supported by marines (which terran should always do)
Just mass muta never going to beta archon / blink stalker in good numbers. And if it beats then toss army is too small.
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On October 25 2011 18:55 Pandemona wrote:
Lots of people saying in ZvT especially the 30+ Mutis is a game winner, well maybe but only if the terran is caught in the middle of the map and doesnt have enough turrets to hold off the first initial onslaught.
As for Muti being OP, lol clearly not, when 4 shots from 2 Thors can kill a group of 30 muti you know theres nothing wrong with them. They do good DPS in big groups like a marine ball i guess, but they are so weak. Mass marine medivac alone will LOL any muti ball.
Muti are never used to directly kill an army heads up (ball vs ball) they are used to try and snipe tech or even snipe specific units i.e seige tank. Muti bane ling hardly kills any army on its own straight up, it normally takes a huge mess up by the terran to cause muti to kill his whole army, thus already being behind.
200/200 supply zerg with 30 muti is pretty weak ground army and aslong as u dont split ur army up to engange the muti alone you should be more than fine as in the case of many a ZvT these days.
umm so how many turrets are you suggesting vs 30 mutas? because 5 stacked right on top of each other are still gonna be worthless. It's not realistic to have to place 500-1000 minerals worth of base defences at every base.
on 2 base marines are perfectly fine vs mutas, but on certain maps where the run distance between third and main is too large mutas become extremely strong.
1) they can fly between bases and outright kill your eco
2) if you have marines in every base you can stop that but you'll have less at your front
3) again, if the map doesnt have a shared choke for 3 bases you have to spread to every base, plus enough marines/thors/turrets spread around your tanks. and then you can just be whittled down.
is it OP? i don't know, i cant tell you. Are there pro games where i ask myself "hmm what could the terran have done vs these mutas" and i dont have an answer? absolutely. But there are games where it doesnt work out too. I think the muta OP or not question is based alot on the map it's being used on.
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The big reason why phoenix don't counter mutalisk is because you have to almost match in population and resources. So lets say you have 30 mutalisks. You have to have about 20 Phoenixes in the air to engage them in a direct fight, because 4 to 3 range is not a big enough advantage to kite when dealing with units as fast as the mutalisk and phoenix. That is nearly 40 supply in units that would be worthless against ground if they switched immediately after the mutalisks.
I think if they added something simple like +1 range to phoenix AA from the Fleet beacon, you could make less Phoenixes against more mutas. For example, with +1 range you now can use 15 Phoenixes to counter mutas by dancing around them, freeing up 10 supply. It's also something you can't do now.
I feel like changes like this, which are relatively small would help HOTS much more, than adding an entirely new unit in place of one of the most iconic Protoss units.
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On October 25 2011 19:05 Ledo wrote:
Mutalisks are too strong. they are primarily a harass unit. there is something wrong if you can make 100 supply of a harass unit assuming you have around 60 supply of workers and face roll opponents.
Thors and phoenix never fulfilled their role due to the fact of magic box which basically negated thor as a unit and phoenic micro means you are basically harming yourself.. you need to be spending that time on macroing and doing other things..
Thors don't have to do damage to actually damage the effect that mutalisks have.
Having a single thor in your army means you can no longer easily pick off tanks, as you can't group the mutas up, which means by getting a thor a terran is likely to eventually have more tanks against someone who is very good at harassing tank pushes and such.
A thor or even an armory down completely changes the way you harass with mutas, unless you're incredibly ballsy.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
Not sure TvZ, but PvZ they only feel overpowered because Protoss are forcing FFE all the time. With a 1 gate expand you can easily stop any mutalisk timing by just straight up killing the Zerg on many maps with a solid pressure build.
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if a player can have an economy that supports 30 mutas without dying before maybe he deserves to win no matter what unit he builds? if there were games where zergs have bad early games and shit economies but they come back by building mutas maybe we could start this discussion lol
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i think that mutalsik harassment was imbalanced in the sense that it was a lot harder to deal with then to actually do. There are other examples in the game like that but I have to say that I for one am gglad protoss gets a better anti air harass arsenal.
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-Thors don't counter muta, unless you have 5+ of them.
-High templar dont counter muta, because they're too slow, and you'd hav to be retarded to actually lose health from a storm.
- Archons dont counter muta, they are also too slow and can't get where you need to be in time. Plus theyre so big that they get stuck fucking everywhere
- Marines counter muta
-Stalkers (semi) counter muta, but once muta reach the 20/30+ numbers, muta> stalker in a 1 for 1 fight because of splash.
The main problem is, muta's are so easy to use and hard to defend against, so the skill balance difference is enormous. And there is SOME validity to balancing units based on how hard they are to use.
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On October 25 2011 18:57 Micket wrote:
Mutas are incredibly uncommon ZvP, and marines wreck mutas anyway. For TvZ, when you invest 2500/2500 in units that cannot defeat 2000 mule minerals worth of marines, you'd think that you deserve to have an awesome harass unit. Making muta harass useless makes the unit useless. Thors still pwn mutas if you have an ounce of marine support, thors lose if they are the only unit in your base. Perhaps you have to 'gasp' multitask and defend with marines whilst pushing whilst dropping to get mutas away from home.
Mutalisks are a great harass unit in larger numbers. In direct combat they have a role as well because they by nature hard counter units that can't shoot up. If you can take out most of the marines with banelings, lings or whatever then the mutalisks have free reign over the tanks. Their speed also allows them to avoid unfavorable engagements easily (which the protoss had a problem with).
Anyway the replacement of the thor is because as you said that they need marine support. You couldn't really go pure mech (and stick to just upgrading vehicle weapons and armor) and instead needed to have bio mixed in.
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to be completely honest, I think it is the lower league that is having problem with mass mutas, thus 50+muta in ZvP.
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idk what it is with all these silly threads popping up about everything involving HOTS. no they're not imba, blizzard doesn't think that either. they just want to give you multiple ways to deal with a problem. you might say they want to EXPAND upon your possibilities with their EXPANSION.
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blizzard devs are gold league terran / toss players, so naturally they nerd rage hard at mutas flying around their base.. "WHY CANT YOU JUST GO AWAY!!!"
Seriously, who struggles with mutas? I understand the terran change, but I can only recall one PvZ pro game where a zerg went mass mass muta and it ended up in a base trade. Archons, Storm, Blink stalkers and guardian shield will rape any amount of muta, or at least reduce their numbers to an insignificant amount.
Protoss is basically getting an upgraded heavy duty phoenix that can hit ground, and will probably never be used =/ so sad we don't get really changes / smart devs to work on protoss
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Hmm, I guess Blizzard choice of the warhound is to introduce pure mech into TvZ, which I can completely get behind. I understand that choice as well. That doesnt really explain the Tempest tho.
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On October 25 2011 19:00 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:32 LEEKsc wrote:On October 25 2011 18:28 Let it Raine wrote:
mutas in zvp right now
op vs terrible protoss players
good vs mediocre toss players
terrible vs good toss players
they go from good unit to: "all i can do now is base race and hope he doesnt bring probes + have money banked"
protoss can make extremely cost efficient compositions vs any zerg army comp. somewhat true in my opinion, on some maps base trades are incredibly effective, and they serve as a really nice mid-late game harassment tool if you know how to use them properly (and this is as you say, really efficient vs "terrible" (lesser skilled) protoss players) I disagree completly, muta's are incredibly powerful in PvZ the only reason they aren't used as much is because 6 gate kills you. Idra and Artosis even gave it as an example on their show 'imbalanced' as something that could have been imba if it wasn't for 6 gate.
Playing in master league as Zerg on EU and NA, I go for muta every game vs Protoss, and manage to hold off 6gates, 7gates and 8gates pretty much 100% of the time. Maybe they're doing it wrong but right now I have like an 80% win rate vs Protoss, losing only to stuff like 4 void rays appearing in my base before mutas pop, which doesn't really happen to me anymore now that I just get 4-6 queens early game for imba transfuses/creep spread.
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EPT
