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Funny thing is Mutas will be kinda useless with all the hardcounters in addition to the perfectly fine choices like Blinkstalker/Storm/Thormarine/Turrets/Ghosts/even Marine Viking..
The thing that really gets my head spinning is that a couple months ago they mentioned the Corrupter as beeing a lame unit that has no real purpose. Now it's suddenly the Overseer who has no purpose and you will need Corrupters in PvZ pretty much every game vs Starport/Collossi builds (still keeping in mind that Hydras might actually be useful now...).
I'm just weirded out by the way the metagame will change. Mutas are barely useful against Tossers nowadays and in ZvZ it reaaaaally depends on the map, if you ruin them for ZvT and they get hardcountered in PvZ I will be very sad...
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
On October 25 2011 19:37 Velr wrote:
As a Diamond toss you have like no say in "balance" talk... NONE.
I regularly beat masters in KOTH and spend most of my time there as it is a better learning experience than ladder, being able to watch how people play at every different level, and face opponents of either higher skill level (for great practice) or lower, for experimentation with things you havnt done before but want to learn.
If you think spending 4-12 hours a day for the last 15 months between playing the game, watching tournaments and watching pro streams doesnt qualify me for giving my opinion on a potential balance issue in a forum thread on a site that has a massive amount of silver-plat level players, then you dont have to read my post. There is no need for the agressive "oh, look at me im better than you" stance.
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Mutas are not barely useful im ZvP, they are great, if u scout and rule out a gateway heavy pressure.
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remember, tempests can be used against massed vikings too
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On October 25 2011 19:44 Zeon0 wrote:
Mutas are not barely useful im ZvP, they are great, if u scout and rule out a gateway heavy pressure.
Because gateway heavy pressure is so uncommon in ZvP...
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There is very little discussion about the whole picture in this thread. This has been discussed to death on shows like SotG, just go find the professional opinion.
In the end, the situation blizzard is trying to prevent is a race having a composition that another race simply cant deal with. Think back to when toss were going for the colossus/voidray/templar/gateway army and a-moving zerg to death. That death ball was insanely expensive and hard to get to but it didnt matter because once you had it zerg simply didnt have any units that could beat it. Mass muta is like that against protoss. At the moment the only way to beat it is to stop it from happening.
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opening with muta is actually kind of unviable and "underpowered"; there's lots of good counters like 6 gate or templars or phoenixes and it's not really difficult to scout with hallucination. There can be some boderline op situations where you do a huge tech to muta switch before toss has a 3rd. Even then it's not all that bad, and the main reason it's bad is because the mid-game muta switch pretty much forces you to go with the storm route to counter it and storm performs so horribly against roaches. I dunno if it deserves a new unit, especially if mass recall is on nexuses now. Seems like that would be more than enough to make any sort of muta imbalance not that bad if you could just save up energy, move out, and then mass recall against counter/base race.
A little op sometimes on some maps in some situations, but not terribly severe and definitely not enough to warrant a new unit designed specifically to counter muta for toss. I'd way rather see a meaningful addition to t1/1.5, it's not like anyone is arguing that protoss late game doesn't have access to a whole bunch of good units and well rounded compositions. It's actually pretty aggravating that protoss has such a nice box of tools to deal with most situations late game and really limited options early game and blizzard decides to add 2 high tier combat units in the expansion. Toss is already "top heavy".
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On October 25 2011 19:46 Turbo.Tactics wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 19:44 Zeon0 wrote:
Mutas are not barely useful im ZvP, they are great, if u scout and rule out a gateway heavy pressure. Because gateway heavy pressure is so uncommon in ZvP...
maybe in your Platinum league people do it every game...
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On October 25 2011 19:43 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 19:37 Velr wrote:
As a Diamond toss you have like no say in "balance" talk... NONE. I regularly beat masters in KOTH and spend most of my time there as it is a better learning experience than ladder, being able to watch how people play at every different level, and face opponents of either higher skill level (for great practice) or lower, for experimentation with things you havnt done before but want to learn. If you think spending 4-12 hours a day for the last 15 months between playing the game, watching tournaments and watching pro streams doesnt qualify me for giving my opinion on a potential balance issue in a forum thread on a site that has a massive amount of silver-plat level players, then you dont have to read my post. There is no need for the agressive "oh, look at me im better than you" stance.
To be fair, if you put that much time into the game and you're still not masters or gm, then yes your opinion is kinda irrelevant. As you were saying archons are rather clumsy that's true, but what would you rather have; destroy a 100-150 mineral building so your archons can now move freely or lose because you're too stubborn to adapt on the fly?
I would know what option I'd pick.
But kudos to you for still expressing your opinion, just don't expect it to mean as much as someone who does play at the higher levels. By the time HoTS is out people will have already figured out how to deal with muta/ling play anyway, the only real issue is that HoTS is pretty much going to reset most if not all of the balance 
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On October 25 2011 19:45 ChriS-X wrote:
remember, tempests can be used against massed vikings too
Tempest: range 6
Viking: range 9
Tempest is a capital ship, and therefore will have a corresponding speed. So no, tempests can't be used against vikings.
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
On October 25 2011 19:49 hjop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 19:43 Cyro wrote:On October 25 2011 19:37 Velr wrote:
As a Diamond toss you have like no say in "balance" talk... NONE. I regularly beat masters in KOTH and spend most of my time there as it is a better learning experience than ladder, being able to watch how people play at every different level, and face opponents of either higher skill level (for great practice) or lower, for experimentation with things you havnt done before but want to learn. If you think spending 4-12 hours a day for the last 15 months between playing the game, watching tournaments and watching pro streams doesnt qualify me for giving my opinion on a potential balance issue in a forum thread on a site that has a massive amount of silver-plat level players, then you dont have to read my post. There is no need for the agressive "oh, look at me im better than you" stance. To be fair, if you put that much time into the game and you're still not masters or gm, then yes your opinion is kinda irrelevant. As you were saying archons are rather clumsy that's true, but what would you rather have; destroy a 100-150 mineral building so your archons can now move freely or lose because you're too stubborn to adapt on the fly? I would know what option I'd pick. But kudos to you for still expressing your opinion, just don't expect it to mean as much as someone who does play at the higher levels. By the time HoTS is out people will have already figured out how to deal with muta/ling play anyway, the only real issue is that HoTS is pretty much going to reset most if not all of the balance
I just told you i didnt even play ladder since season 2
Edit: And the archon response wasnt meant like that, i just wanted to point out that the reason people didnt like archon pathing is they get stuck where literally no other unit gets stuck, and you have to break a building at every one of your walls when your templar tech is finishing if you want to be able to move between bases without unblocking ramps all the time
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They never stated mutalisks are overpowered, they simply wanted to give players more options to deal with them, and big clunky slow units may be fine if you have perfect positioning, but for low level players that is not the case. Adding a more mobile anti-muta unit gives more options to high level players, while helping to make a low level player experience much more enjoyable.
Whilst I'm a high level terran player (hit GMs frequently on ladder), I'm not much better than the average masters protoss, so take this with a grain of salt:
I think in the ZvP matchup, mutalisks are a bit too difficult to deal with, and the reactions from protoss are almost forced, this gives zerg total control of the game, and protoss doesn't really have much way to swing the momentum and tempo control back into their hands (if protoss have hands),
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As pointed out before In terms of ZvT the Marine could do the job, but they wanted to have mech alternative.
In ZvP look at their possibilities to counter Mutas:
1. Stalker: which are primarly designed to counter heavy Air not light Air, they received several buffs in the history of WOL to be a lil bit cost effective against light Air. So with blink they are good against the normal Muta-force but as the numbers grow and we assume both are on the same tech level it can get pretty ugly for the protoss player.
2. HT: as pointed out to kill mutas with storm only is extremly hard, because of their speed.
3. Archon: in terms of anti-air the Archon works as same as the Thor, the only difference is the archon has less range. Its nice if your Opponent doesn't pays a lot attention on his Muta but usually I wouldn't build the archon against Mutas.
4. Phoenix: works perfect against Mutas alone in the midgame, but after the Midgame it becomes pretty risky to build Phoenix, not because of the Muta, because the Zerg could build some Infestors and with one good Fungal you can loose all your phoenix, because they are trapped. Not to mention Mass Phoenix doesn't works well with the protoss main army.
I would never say that Muta is OP. I think its more like they want to give the races more options to react on such things, i.e. TvZ Zerg goes Muta=> Terran builds Marines or PvZ Zerg goes Muta=> Protoss builds Stalker... because in combination with this unit they are basicly forced to choose one specific techpath.
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I always thought mutas are one of the best units in the game if controlled right especially since Zerg can techswitch so easily. I think giving terran and protoss other options to deal with them instead of forcing the same response/playstyle every game is a good thing and doesnt make mutas useless or anything like that, probably not even weaker. Removing thors could turn out to make it harder against mass muta play even, we dont know yet.
I dont agree that only lower level players struggle against them at all, even at the pro level games can be decided by muta harass alone, if the ground distance between your bases is large it is very difficult to deal with.
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On October 25 2011 19:12 Jemesatui wrote:
-Thors don't counter muta, unless you have 5+ of them.
-High templar dont counter muta, because they're too slow, and you'd hav to be retarded to actually lose health from a storm.
- Archons dont counter muta, they are also too slow and can't get where you need to be in time. Plus theyre so big that they get stuck fucking everywhere
- Marines counter muta
-Stalkers (semi) counter muta, but once muta reach the 20/30+ numbers, muta> stalker in a 1 for 1 fight because of splash.
The main problem is, muta's are so easy to use and hard to defend against, so the skill balance difference is enormous. And there is SOME validity to balancing units based on how hard they are to use.
Why do people expect 1-2 thors or 1-2 HT to counter 20+ mutas that are worth 2000/2000?
Same with archons. If zerg invested so much resources into mutas you need to invest a similar number to counter it. It is as simple as that. Only thing that I know of that breaks this formula are 8marine+medivac drops. Those drops need much more resources to stop unless the terran player is an idiot and lets 2 banelings kill all marines.
Then you got marines that counter mutas while actually being way under the cost of mutas and you consider that OK.
Then you expect Stalkers alone to counter mutas in 1vs1 scenario where Stalkers are both lower cost and lower tech.
Seriously people! I don't understand your way of thinking.
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On October 25 2011 18:27 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:23 firehand101 wrote:totally agree with you. I couldnt believe blizz were making these changes to counter the mutalisk, terran in particular were not having any muta trouble at all with the thor. We will have to wait and see what happens with the next game, but all of these nerfs towards the muta makes me worry that it wont be an effective harass anymore, which makes me sad Well I don't consider mutas OP but the best strategy in ZvT is massing mutas to the point where you get like 30-40 of them and constantly engange into army trades with the terrans and try to presserve your mutas while sacrificing lings to kill off their tank numbers to force terrans to reproduce them and delay the mass ghost. I'm not a zerg,but I'm pretty sure this is how IdrA plays recently and how he was able to beat Bomber. A lot of Koreans play like this as well I believe.
This is pretty much my opinion.
TvZ atm is really close to balanced, but the game is on a knife-edge for terrans against mutalingbling. Once the zerg gets a certain mass of mutas, one mistake and you are fucked. If a decent number of banelings connect with marines, the zerg has an easy cleanup job to gg.
For me though, I think goliaths will be most exciting in TvP. Sure, they have decent usage in TvZ (and will help mech play, which suffers against heavy muta play), but they will make mech viable in TvP, which any respectable terran player/BW fan/person with a heart/person who hates marauders will be excited for.
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I think they should nerf the phoenix' attack damage a little bit and give it a slight splash instead of introducing this awkward T3 ship.
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On October 25 2011 20:20 decaf wrote:
I think they should nerf the phoenix' attack damage a little bit and give it a slight splash instead of introducing this awkward T3 ship.
Then Phoenixes will have equal range as mutas.... (3) 4 is pretty short already
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EPT
