On October 23 2011 12:07 ~Maverick~ wrote: I really just cannot help but feeling that protoss got shafted. All of these new units that protoss got are expensive and gimmicky; I really don't think that they are what protoss really needs.
I'll wait and see how things flesh out in the actual beta, but if the actual expansion is anything remotely like what they have shown in those videos, I will probably no longer be playing protoss.
I am starting next ladder season as terran. I picked Protoss in BW because of the storm spell but now terran will have these awesome portable storm generators so i figure its close enough. I was really hopping the HotS preview units would do something to revitalize my interest in protoss but sadly it had the reverse affect. I hat gimmicky units and it looks like blizzard has decided protoss is supposed to revolve around gimmicks so I am getting out of there.
PS I already hate the design decision of warp gates because it is very gimmicky in my opinion and instead of alleviating the amount of gimmicky crap protoss has to work with they seem to have doubled down on it.
This is what I'm really starting to hate about protoss as well. The whole race is based around cute little tricks (Forcefield, WG, etc.), whereas terran just has really great core units that don't rely on spells and tricks.
Yeah, they're not what they used to be. I'm sticking with protoss no matter what, im just loyal to them and I think they're the coolest looking and spacy, so yeah... I just hope the next expansion brings something cool for them. Or maybe they'll remove the oracle before release and change it for something nice? Who knows, things are definitely going to change before release.
On October 23 2011 12:07 ~Maverick~ wrote: I really just cannot help but feeling that protoss got shafted. All of these new units that protoss got are expensive and gimmicky; I really don't think that they are what protoss really needs.
The other thing that not many people mention a lot is that some Terran and Zerg units got improved. The Protoss army is pretty much unchanged in that regard.
On October 23 2011 12:09 Shaman.us wrote: I think its funny that Blizzard couldn't create a new Protoss unit they liked, so they added the Replicant and said "Hey take some of the Terran or Zerg units, they're pretty good!"
Ok, I think you are about the 1000th person to say this.
I mean it is a simple idea, but it does have a lot of interesting potential at the same time.
Yeah I think it's a great idea. I for one will enjoy EMPing the terrans entire ghost ball. And 111 seems dead because you can steal a banshee and cloak kill all their marines seeing as though they only have 1 OC. And if they bring a raven then you can take that and kill the rines with HSM. Possibilities are endless
Edit: providing that the replicant can steal air units? Any clarification please?
On October 23 2011 12:09 Shaman.us wrote: I think its funny that Blizzard couldn't create a new Protoss unit they liked, so they added the Replicant and said "Hey take some of the Terran or Zerg units, they're pretty good!"
Ok, I think you are about the 1000th person to say this.
I mean it is a simple idea, but it does have a lot of interesting potential at the same time.
Yeah I think it's a great idea. I for one will enjoy EMPing the terrans entire ghost ball. And 111 seems dead because you can steal a banshee and cloak kill all their marines seeing as though they only have 1 OC. And if they bring a raven then you can take that and kill the fines with HSM. Possibilities are endless
Edit: providing that the replicant can steal air units? Any clarification please?
They specifically provided copying a banshee as an example, so it's pretty clear they can.
This is what I'm really starting to hate about protoss as well. The whole race is based around cute little tricks (Forcefield, WG, etc.), whereas terran just has really great core units that don't rely on spells and tricks.
"cute tricks" has *always* been the essence of Protoss play. The Bisu build is as gimmicky as it gets--snipe detection, make dts, win. The BesT build that had a 100% winrate in PvP (and was good in PvT too) for a long ass time revolved around a fast arbiter for stasis used almost EXACTLY like forcefield. PvT play in general is HUGELY reliant on the various arbiter spells, which are the definition of "cute tricks".
Basically, if you just wanted strong units that don't rely on abusing certain combinations and taking advantage of spell tricks...don't play Toss. I mean, you could play sub-pro Toss that way in BW by just a-moving (although how is that better?), but pro-level Toss in BW was definitely the most "gimmicky" race in the sense of relying on abusive combos and "cute" spells.
Protoss has never just been about straightforward "build a bunch of awesome units, win." If thats what you want, play Terran. Seriously.
Personally though, I like that Protoss is the wierd race, I like that I have to be clever and tricky with how I use my abilities. As awesome as the marine is at, well, everything...it bores me. I don't want a Protoss equivalent to the marine.
Hm, just me but I don't really like those changes at all. I think Blizzard have lost the plot.
You don't remove units in an expansion. That's a first for a Blizzard game. You ADD. You EXPAND on the game. You don't try and make it into a sequel.
Completely redesigning the entire tech tree for 2/3 races - also a first for an expansion.
These are not good firsts.
And rather than fixing carriers, which they never even tried to get right and only grudgingly included (they used the original beta Tempest model and never even bothered to reskin it), they just remove them? Iconic units.
And the Thor? Massive, one-off Hero units are bad design for a macro-oriented game. They were bad in all C&C games, they were bad with the Mothership, and Warcraft 3 was not Starcraft that being one reason.
So yeah, not impressed. I think I may be retiring for SC2.
Only the new zerg units really caught any of my interest. Terran especially seemed really boring. Then again its probably all going to change by the time the game is really released anyway.
On October 23 2011 11:59 Fungal Growth wrote: Don't know if this has been posted or not, but here is a video from blizzcon from somebody in the graphics department detailing some of the changes they've made:
(eg new physics engine, cleaner look, creep going over protoss buildings...)
Pretty sick stuff! I'd still play on low, but watching pro matches with rag doll physics and shit flying all over the place good be lots of fun :D
And rather than fixing carriers, which they never even tried to get right and only grudgingly included (they used the original beta Tempest model and never even bothered to reskin it), they just remove them? Iconic units. .
Yeah I've always wondered why they never bothered to fix the carriers at all. They were obviously aware that they were hardly ever used. I mean, how many times did they patch the ultralisk? In fact it will get a new ability in the HotS. As will the battlecruiser. But they NEVER patched the carrier even once, and now they decided to remove it. Sad.
On October 23 2011 12:38 DaemonX wrote: Hm, just me but I don't really like those changes at all. I think Blizzard have lost the plot.
You don't remove units in an expansion. That's a first for a Blizzard game. You ADD. You EXPAND on the game. You don't try and make it into a sequel.
Completely redesigning the entire tech tree for 2/3 races - also a first for an expansion.
These are not good firsts.
And rather than fixing carriers, which they never even tried to get right and only grudgingly included (they used the original beta Tempest model and never even bothered to reskin it), they just remove them? Iconic units.
And the Thor? Massive, one-off Hero units are bad design for a macro-oriented game. They were bad in all C&C games, they were bad with the Mothership, and Warcraft 3 was not Starcraft that being one reason.
So yeah, not impressed. I think I may be retiring for SC2.
What plot? They have as far back as '07 stated that all three expansions operate as separate games aka sequels. So yes, you should expect significant changes in the battlefield dynamics.
I am curious what the "hero" unit for the Zerg will be in LotV.
On October 23 2011 12:38 DaemonX wrote: Hm, just me but I don't really like those changes at all. I think Blizzard have lost the plot.
You don't remove units in an expansion. That's a first for a Blizzard game. You ADD. You EXPAND on the game. You don't try and make it into a sequel.
Completely redesigning the entire tech tree for 2/3 races - also a first for an expansion.
These are not good firsts.
And rather than fixing carriers, which they never even tried to get right and only grudgingly included (they used the original beta Tempest model and never even bothered to reskin it), they just remove them? Iconic units.
And the Thor? Massive, one-off Hero units are bad design for a macro-oriented game. They were bad in all C&C games, they were bad with the Mothership, and Warcraft 3 was not Starcraft that being one reason.
So yeah, not impressed. I think I may be retiring for SC2.
What plot? They have as far back as '07 stated that all three expansions operate as separate games aka sequels. So yes, you should expect significant changes in the battlefield dynamics.
I am curious what the "hero" unit for the Zerg will be in LotV.
Those Tempest are going to be able to fly in and kill every friggen clumped up overlord in 5 seconds and fly out unharmed, leaving Zergs severely supply capped.
On October 23 2011 12:55 Unnamed Player wrote: Those Tempest are going to be able to fly in and kill every friggen clumped up overlord in 5 seconds and fly out unharmed, leaving Zergs severely supply capped.
The obvious solution is to not clump your overlords and have some kind of anti-air by the time protoss has tempests on the field.
On October 23 2011 12:38 DaemonX wrote: Hm, just me but I don't really like those changes at all. I think Blizzard have lost the plot.
You don't remove units in an expansion. That's a first for a Blizzard game. You ADD. You EXPAND on the game. You don't try and make it into a sequel.
Completely redesigning the entire tech tree for 2/3 races - also a first for an expansion.
These are not good firsts.
And rather than fixing carriers, which they never even tried to get right and only grudgingly included (they used the original beta Tempest model and never even bothered to reskin it), they just remove them? Iconic units.
And the Thor? Massive, one-off Hero units are bad design for a macro-oriented game. They were bad in all C&C games, they were bad with the Mothership, and Warcraft 3 was not Starcraft that being one reason.
So yeah, not impressed. I think I may be retiring for SC2.
"Give us money to remove cool units from the game and exchange them for questionable ones."
And rather than fixing carriers, which they never even tried to get right and only grudgingly included (they used the original beta Tempest model and never even bothered to reskin it), they just remove them? Iconic units. .
Yeah I've always wondered why they never bothered to fix the carriers at all. They were obviously aware that they were hardly ever used. I mean, how many times did they patch the ultralisk? In fact it will get a new ability in the HotS. As will the battlecruiser. But they NEVER patched the carrier even once, and now they decided to remove it. Sad.
It really does seem like someone at Blizzard has their ego attached to the tempest. And is resentful that the community wanted carriers instead. :\
Yeah I've always wondered why they never bothered to fix the carriers at all. They were obviously aware that they were hardly ever used. I mean, how many times did they patch the ultralisk? In fact it will get a new ability in the HotS. As will the battlecruiser. But they NEVER patched the carrier even once, and now they decided to remove it. Sad.
Carriers sucked in BW too, and for the exact same reason. They're just way too hard to balance--anything that flies, with that level of health and dps vs. both air and ground, need either some really hard counters, or to be insanely expensive/hard to build, or both. Giving the Tempest different attacks vs. air and ground is a good start, because its much easier to play around with in such a way that you can give it a defined role without making it too strong overall.
Seriously if you look at the units that fly and hit both air and ground, they *always* have some drawback. Usually, its being super fragile, like Mutas and Voids. But if they aren't that fragile and still do great dps vs everything, then you have to provide really strong incentives not to just make that unit all the time...hence the Carrier we got in both BW and SC2, awesome in theory but way too expensive/slow building to ever be really viable.
Whereas with the Tempest, they can just nerf its ground attack or something if necessary, and voila, its countered by basic ground anti-air. Once that niche is clearly established, with the unit having clear weaknesses as well as strengths, its much easier to set the cost/buildtime more reasonably so people can actually use it.
Can anyone explain to me the idea behind scrapping protoss' hero unit from the game and adding one for terran? I've been trying to figure it out but just can't seem to wrap my head around it... Why not go ahead and either give each race one or forget about it completely?
On October 23 2011 12:07 ~Maverick~ wrote: I really just cannot help but feeling that protoss got shafted. All of these new units that protoss got are expensive and gimmicky; I really don't think that they are what protoss really needs.
I'll wait and see how things flesh out in the actual beta, but if the actual expansion is anything remotely like what they have shown in those videos, I will probably no longer be playing protoss.
I am starting next ladder season as terran. I picked Protoss in BW because of the storm spell but now terran will have these awesome portable storm generators so i figure its close enough. I was really hopping the HotS preview units would do something to revitalize my interest in protoss but sadly it had the reverse affect. I hat gimmicky units and it looks like blizzard has decided protoss is supposed to revolve around gimmicks so I am getting out of there.
PS I already hate the design decision of warp gates because it is very gimmicky in my opinion and instead of alleviating the amount of gimmicky crap protoss has to work with they seem to have doubled down on it.
This is what I'm really starting to hate about protoss as well. The whole race is based around cute little tricks (Forcefield, WG, etc.), whereas terran just has really great core units that don't rely on spells and tricks.
Where you see cute little tricks and gimmicks, I see versatility. Stargate openings just got a huge buff. Arc shield provides us with the security of scans, so the fear of a banshee is greatly reduced. Replicants will crush 111. Bring an oracle or two with phoenixes and missile turrets and spores are no longer a problem. Replicants can emp ghosts making ghost micro considerably harder. Infestors can now be fungalled making infestor micro harder. I have a feeling the replicant will be the best unit in the game. You can even make your own baneling bombs that can move underground. The possibilities are literally endless
It seems like the game is becoming even more casual player friendly. Of course no one knows yet. But just looking at the new abilities and units, a lot of them are to save a player who forgot to think ahead. mass aoe air, oh noes I did'nt react at all to his mutas so I build a few of these. Oh no I didn't make a bunker at my expand, no worries a shredder can protect an entire choke. Etc etc.. I hope Im wrong though.
On October 23 2011 12:55 Unnamed Player wrote: Those Tempest are going to be able to fly in and kill every friggen clumped up overlord in 5 seconds and fly out unharmed, leaving Zergs severely supply capped.
The obvious solution is to not clump your overlords and have some kind of anti-air by the time protoss has tempests on the field.
You know, build stuff.
You mean anti air against the ULTIMATE air unit.
Spores will be nullified by Oracles.
Of course you are right we have nothing much to do with our time so will be able to split up our overlords easily around all our bases.
EPT
