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On October 23 2011 06:06 springtree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 06:01 Paper117 wrote:
For what it's worth, I'd like to say that I'm unhappy with Zerg mobile detection in HotS as it is now. However, I have no doubt it'll be better by beta or at least release if isn't actually fine presently.
I sort of doubt they'll put the overseer back in. At least the Viper seems to come straight out of lair, not spire as people originally presumed, which means it'll be out in time for DT rushes and such, in most cases. I'd love the Viper ability if it wasn't because it's one time. What will end up happening is, Zerg will be forced to make a minimum amount of vipers (say 1 per base, to give detection to queens, then more as queens are sniped, and they will def be targeted more than ever) even if the Z player doesn't want to use Vipers in any other way in their strategy. Forced into making a unit you don't "need" has a bad taste in my mouth, even if the Vipers' other abilities seem pretty cool and useful.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I agree with the problem with Vipers you mentioned--though I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right; that could be a big head ache.
Idk if they'd really be out in equivalent time. I think overseers would be out much faster. It'll take 17 seconds and 50/ 50 to field one, as you already have an overlord built and paid for. You might have access to their tech at the same time, but unless the viper can build in 17 seconds, the viper will be fielded later. How does it build? In one post I read it comes from an egg but in another one I read that it comes from the hatch like a queen. If it comes from the hatch, that could delay research or queen production. I don't think it would really bother most people, but that could be a problem. Having to use a larva for a detector is also kinda sucky, but is even less of a problem.
The cost is also unsettling. How much do vipers cost? I think I read somewhere that it was around 100/200/ 2? That's a bit more expensive to field than the 50/ 50/ 0 for an overseer, as you've already paid a lot of his cost as an overlord earlier. This could make the viper come out even later. I guess you could save up for it, so you can start one at the same time you would an overseer, but that would be delaying other stuff, right? They could make them cheaper or faster building to let them field easier, but they seem pretty strong now as a spell caster and doing so would allow Zergs to field some powerful units much easier and quicker.
Now, to help your overlords scout, you can morph one quickly into an overseer and use his added speed and durability to get more information than you normally would with a slow ovie. The changeling could potentially also give additional intel. In HotS as it is, it looks like you're obligated to get ovie speed if you want to help them scout, which is much more expensive and takes longer. Also, you're already spending more gas on the viper. Intel could come later and at a greater cost.
To me, it looks like scouting will be much harder. I'm really curious how Blizzard is going to make this all work out. What do you guys think?
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mod edit.
User was warned for this post
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I love the changes for protoss, as I think they address a lot of the current issues with the race.
Issue 1: Lack of harass options.
- The Oracle has the potential to be a really annoying harass unit. Blocking mineral patches from being mined for 45 seconds will be a big deal in the early - midgame. Phasing out opponents buildings will be super annoying (no turrets / spores for DT detection, phasing out stargate means the 1/1/1 is a 1/1/0)
- Bringing Mass Recall to the Nexus allows the protoss to harass with its main army (or portions of the army) and recall back to the main. The combination of Warp Prism harass + Mass Recall retreat has so many possibilities.
Issue 2: Dealing with Terran 1/1/1.
- One of the issues with the 1/1/1 is not knowing exactly which combination of units the terran is bringing (Raven? cloak on the banshees?). If Toss opens stargate, the Oracle reveals all, allowing the toss to know what is coming. The Oracle can also phase out a building (no cloakshees for you!)
- If Toss opens Robo, one or two replicants should be super effective. Have a seige tank of your own, or a couple extra immortals if you need them. .
Issue 3: Stargate tech is weak.
Rarely seen in PvT, and a bit of a gimmick in PvP, stargate in HoTS may become a standard opening in all 3 matchups. I think I'm going to want the Oracle pretty early for annoying harass, and the Tempest should shut down muta play and provide nice support (vs Vikings and Corruptors) once Collosi are added.
Issue 4: Ghost's EMP too strong vs Protoss.
- Changes to the ghost cloak (no longer toggles on/off) should help. As the terran tries to engage, the toss can retreat (forcing the cloak similar to forcing a stim), forcing the terran to engage a little later with uncloaked ghosts.
- Replicant tranforms into 1 ghost, EMPs terran army (no terran EMPs, no PDD).
Issue 5: Early pool Zerg.
- 6/7 pool can be very difficult to deal with if scouted late. The Arc Shield looks like it might provide just enough support to get a zealot out. If they balance the damage on the cannon correctly, a 6pool would still be viable (could catch a greedy toss who used his chronos immediately on probes), but much more risky for the zerg (as it should be).
I love the ideas behind the new units and abilities. It seems like the new Toss units allow / encourage Protoss players to get away from the deathball. I can't wait to see some pros get their hands on them to see what they can really do!
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I wonder if someone could use the editor to create a HOTS custum map?
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On October 23 2011 06:51 Reborn8u wrote:
I wonder if someone could use the editor to create a HOTS custum map?
Probably. I imagine one popping up in the beta to let WoL players without a key play around with it. I bet that could help speed up the community's understanding of the game.
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On October 23 2011 06:48 nstrike wrote:
I love the changes for protoss, as I think they address a lot of the current issues with the race.
Issue 1: Lack of harass options.
- The Oracle has the potential to be a really annoying harass unit. Blocking mineral patches from being mined for 45 seconds will be a big deal in the early - midgame. Phasing out opponents buildings will be super annoying (no turrets / spores for DT detection, phasing out stargate means the 1/1/1 is a 1/1/0)
- Bringing Mass Recall to the Nexus allows the protoss to harass with its main army (or portions of the army) and recall back to the main. The combination of Warp Prism harass + Mass Recall retreat has so many possibilities.
Issue 2: Dealing with Terran 1/1/1.
- One of the issues with the 1/1/1 is not knowing exactly which combination of units the terran is bringing (Raven? cloak on the banshees?). If Toss opens stargate, the Oracle reveals all, allowing the toss to know what is coming. The Oracle can also phase out a building (no cloakshees for you!)
- If Toss opens Robo, one or two replicants should be super effective. Have a seige tank of your own, or a couple extra immortals if you need them. .
Issue 3: Stargate tech is weak.
Rarely seen in PvT, and a bit of a gimmick in PvP, stargate in HoTS may become a standard opening in all 3 matchups. I think I'm going to want the Oracle pretty early for annoying harass, and the Tempest should shut down muta play and provide nice support (vs Vikings and Corruptors) once Collosi are added.
Issue 4: Ghost's EMP too strong vs Protoss.
- Changes to the ghost cloak (no longer toggles on/off) should help. As the terran tries to engage, the toss can retreat (forcing the cloak similar to forcing a stim), forcing the terran to engage a little later with uncloaked ghosts.
- Replicant tranforms into 1 ghost, EMPs terran army (no terran EMPs, no PDD).
Issue 5: Early pool Zerg.
- 6/7 pool can be very difficult to deal with if scouted late. The Arc Shield looks like it might provide just enough support to get a zealot out. If they balance the damage on the cannon correctly, a 6pool would still be viable (could catch a greedy toss who used his chronos immediately on probes), but much more risky for the zerg (as it should be).
I love the ideas behind the new units and abilities. It seems like the new Toss units allow / encourage Protoss players to get away from the deathball. I can't wait to see some pros get their hands on them to see what they can really do!
ye make it even harder for a terran to engage a toss, good idea.
You are aware of that terran needs around 3-4times as much multitasking compared to what a toss needs in big ball combat, Some of the basic toss units have to change so it aint just about A moving, while like the terran army wich needs all marine/maruder binded, ghost binded, vikings binded, now controll that around like a boss, like building shit
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I really wish Blizzard had the guts to keep the Carrier in there.. there's no big reason as to why they can't have two capital ships, especially since both units have the same basic counters. And the whole Protoss Starfleet thing really meshes well with the race thematically.
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argh I just have one minor complaint. I wish they change the unit appearance of swam hosts  I have a bit of trypophobia, and those holes on their backs really creep me out...
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On October 23 2011 06:53 Paper117 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 06:51 Reborn8u wrote:
I wonder if someone could use the editor to create a HOTS custum map? Probably. I imagine one popping up in the beta to let WoL players without a key play around with it. I bet that could help speed up the community's understanding of the game.
That would be so good! Waiting for a key is going to be horrible.
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On October 23 2011 06:57 Quotidian wrote:
I really wish Blizzard had the guts to keep the Carrier in there.. there's no big reason as to why they can't have two capital ships, especially since both units have the same basic counters. And the whole Protoss Starfleet thing really meshes well with the race thematically.
You know, I keep thinking about this one. And I sort of envision BlizzCon ~2013 where Blizz proudly announce "By popular demand, the Carrier's back. And it's back in style." (and carrier beefed up majorly, BW carrier level, then halved in time for expansion release, just like the units here).
Just a feeling.
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On October 23 2011 06:57 Quotidian wrote:
I really wish Blizzard had the guts to keep the Carrier in there.. there's no big reason as to why they can't have two capital ships, especially since both units have the same basic counters. And the whole Protoss Starfleet thing really meshes well with the race thematically.
I kind of feel the same way. I get why they did it, I'm sad to see the carrier go. Would it work the same if instead they just made the interceptors into mini corsairs with a lot of splash and gave the the carrier an air to ground attack like the tempest?
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i think the new hellion transformation might be op as hell against zerg.I know it's designed more against protoss (for help with zealots) but against lings it's gonna be sick.BF hellions as a buffer against lings/roach/hydra,warhounds right behind hellions and tanks shooting freely from afar.Not to mention no more counters when he's away from base thanks to that burrow radiation thing(did u see how many zerglings that thing killed?).But it's gonna be a beta to sort all things out....no reason to worry 
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On October 23 2011 07:00 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 06:53 Paper117 wrote:On October 23 2011 06:51 Reborn8u wrote:
I wonder if someone could use the editor to create a HOTS custum map? Probably. I imagine one popping up in the beta to let WoL players without a key play around with it. I bet that could help speed up the community's understanding of the game. That would be so good! Waiting for a key is going to be horrible.
It sounds feasible, right? I think I'm going to check with some map makers to see how it would work out. The more I think about it, the more excited I am.
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On October 23 2011 07:04 Paper117 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 07:00 Qikz wrote:On October 23 2011 06:53 Paper117 wrote:On October 23 2011 06:51 Reborn8u wrote:
I wonder if someone could use the editor to create a HOTS custum map? Probably. I imagine one popping up in the beta to let WoL players without a key play around with it. I bet that could help speed up the community's understanding of the game. That would be so good! Waiting for a key is going to be horrible. It sounds feasible, right? I think I'm going to check with some map makers to see how it would work out. The more I think about it, the more excited I am.
I wonder if we will ahev the same of luncher where it was offline and you were able to play against computer ( ok they were really bad but it's better than nothing  )
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The viper comes straight out of Lair? Ugh Blizzard you're getting lazy. Maybe, just maybe, timings should exist where people don't have detection?
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On October 23 2011 07:10 0neder wrote:
The viper comes straight out of Lair? Ugh Blizzard you're getting lazy. Maybe, just maybe, timings should exist where people don't have detection?
uhhh....are you serious?
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On October 23 2011 07:10 0neder wrote:
The viper comes straight out of Lair? Ugh Blizzard you're getting lazy. Maybe, just maybe, timings should exist where people don't have detection?
Hmm, how does this work out? Do Vipers build like queens O.o??
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On October 23 2011 07:10 0neder wrote:
The viper comes straight out of Lair? Ugh Blizzard you're getting lazy. Maybe, just maybe, timings should exist where people don't have detection?
Just because they come out of lair doesn't mean everyone builds one as soon as a lair pops. Esp considering their cost (100/200).
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Does the shredder only work vs ground?
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EPT
