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On October 22 2011 20:09 SharkStarcraft wrote:
So we make a new Carrier that has the same problems as the old one BUT counters Mutas and only Mutas. Yay -.-
It's still countered by Vikings and - guess what - Marines. Don't see it being used very often.
According to what I got from this it counters anything that can fly, so it does fuck vikings/corrupters too. It is meant to work with colossi to counter the counter to colossi.
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On October 22 2011 20:04 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 19:56 pezit wrote:On October 22 2011 19:48 secretary bird wrote:On October 22 2011 19:44 Qikz wrote:On October 22 2011 19:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 22 2011 19:27 Salteador Neo wrote:
If Tempest is also countered by Marines AND Vikings just like the mommaship I'm gonna cry xD
Technically having a ball of Tempest to cover the Viking while the Colossi roast the Vikings seem to be the perfect bio killer end game. Do you mean collosi roast the marines? He meant the Colossi kill Marines and Tempest kills vikings. I dont see them not being effective against Vikings when you have a few as otherwise they would only be better voidrays that cant be countered by mutas but idk. Edit: Okay you edited your post now mine doesnt make sense lol Yeah there is absolutely no way that the tempest will counter vikings since it has bonus to light and vikings are supposed to be strong versus armored capital ships. So blizzard is replacing the carrier with a unit that will suffer the exact same problem - it is countered by the exact same thing that colossus is, so you only use one of them. Browder seems to have no idea what he's doing. In the past I would have agreed with you. But not this time. The Nexus changes are going to be HUGE. How many times do you see a Protoss army snipe a hatchery only to be overwhelmed by wave after wave of Zerg units? Never again. EMP, Terran army stims... warp out 6 pool? Turn your nexus into a cannon. And the Oracle is going to be an awesome harass unit. Instantly shut down a mining base or completely stop production of a key unit. Terran and Zerg have some new options but they don't have a straight up buff like the Nexus changes provide. mass recall for the nexus is a huge buff for Protoss. and very interesting. the amount of stuff people will do with that will be awesome.
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On October 22 2011 20:13 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 20:09 SharkStarcraft wrote:
So we make a new Carrier that has the same problems as the old one BUT counters Mutas and only Mutas. Yay -.-
It's still countered by Vikings and - guess what - Marines. Don't see it being used very often. According to what I got from this it counters anything that can fly, so it does fuck vikings/corrupters too. It is meant to work with colossi to counter the counter to colossi.
whats the range? cant see it owning vikings unless its way faster or has an equal range
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The main issue with most of the complaints is that none of it is based on any actual knowledge regarding unit stats and such. For the most part, only the concepts are known, and yet people are making assertions about their in-game utility.
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300/300 is kind of ridiculous, especially the gas cost. And 75 seconds for the Tempest too?
Protoss is already the gas-heaviest race. I didn't have the time or resources to ever make a carrier. When will I be able to make the tempest? It's just not gonna be in a standard unit composition, as far as I can see.
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On October 22 2011 19:50 DrastyK wrote:
After the initial excitement I am pretty sceptical about the new units.
Mass Recall seems to be way op. The Swarm Host is ridiculously weak considering its cost and tech. What about Zerg detection? Tempest looks totally useless. Mutas are strong because of the mobility and I don't see the Tempest as a fast unit. For base-defense you could as well leave some HTs and Archons at home or maybe build cannons. No need to build fleat beacon just to deal with mutas.
But what I really don't get is the fact that every P Unit will cost a ridiculous amount of gas. There is simply no way P can build all these things. I guess P will stick to Collossi which are so easily countered. But hey, new Mass Recall could fix everything.
I really don't get the design.
Building a fleet beacon to deal with mass muta is the exact same thing as building a robotics support bay to deal with mass zerg ground units.
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Italy12247 Posts
On October 22 2011 20:14 syllogism wrote:
The main issue with most of the complaints is that none of it is based on any actual knowledge regarding unit stats and such. For the most part, only the concepts are known, and yet people are making assertions about their in-game utility.
Many of the concepts are pretty bad from a game design point of view though, just like warpgates and forcefields are. Cool on paper, but they introduce a shitstorm of problems when trying to actually have a balanced game; the Replicant is a perfect example of this.
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On October 22 2011 20:14 syllogism wrote:
The main issue with most of the complaints is that none of it is based on any actual knowledge regarding unit stats and such. For the most part, only the concepts are known, and yet people are making assertions about their in-game utility.
what else are we suppose to do ?
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LOL. Blizzard makes battle hellions so terran can use mech vs protoss, and then they take out the carrier, which was one of the few counters to a pure mech army.
I actually don't see protoss beating mech at all if things got implemented like this. These new units seem really underwhelming 
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On October 22 2011 20:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Protoss is already the gas-heaviest race Ever heard of a race called zerg? They're pretty gas heavy dude.
And you're going to make a tempest when you're facing mass mutalisk. Of course you're not going to use it in a "standard" unit composition if you're fighting roach/hydra.
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Interesting units. Can't really say much since we don't know things like stats, build times, tier, etc.
Please keep in mind people that Blizzard will without a doubt do some changes to these units (like they did in the Wings of Liberty). There's no need to bury your SC2 copies just yet.
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On October 22 2011 20:16 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 20:14 syllogism wrote:
The main issue with most of the complaints is that none of it is based on any actual knowledge regarding unit stats and such. For the most part, only the concepts are known, and yet people are making assertions about their in-game utility. what else are we suppose to do ?
Reasonable skepticism is fine, but that's obviously not the case; no one is willing to admit they don't know enough to make any definite judgments. In some cases even concepts can be heavily criticized. Specifically, the replicator is a concept that may simply work, which blizzard even acknowledges.
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On October 22 2011 20:16 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 20:14 syllogism wrote:
The main issue with most of the complaints is that none of it is based on any actual knowledge regarding unit stats and such. For the most part, only the concepts are known, and yet people are making assertions about their in-game utility. Many of the concepts are pretty bad from a game design point of view though, just like warpgates and forcefields are. Cool on paper, but they introduce a shitstorm of problems when trying to actually have a balanced game; the Replicant is a perfect example of this.
Pretending that something is bad doesn't make it bad.
Your knowledge basis is as poor as everyone else's at the moment. Showing hatred so eaely, before actually having experienced it, just shows poor pessimistic attitude.
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On October 22 2011 20:12 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 20:04 Klive5ive wrote:On October 22 2011 19:56 pezit wrote:On October 22 2011 19:48 secretary bird wrote:On October 22 2011 19:44 Qikz wrote:On October 22 2011 19:41 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 22 2011 19:27 Salteador Neo wrote:
If Tempest is also countered by Marines AND Vikings just like the mommaship I'm gonna cry xD
Technically having a ball of Tempest to cover the Viking while the Colossi roast the Vikings seem to be the perfect bio killer end game. Do you mean collosi roast the marines? He meant the Colossi kill Marines and Tempest kills vikings. I dont see them not being effective against Vikings when you have a few as otherwise they would only be better voidrays that cant be countered by mutas but idk. Edit: Okay you edited your post now mine doesnt make sense lol Yeah there is absolutely no way that the tempest will counter vikings since it has bonus to light and vikings are supposed to be strong versus armored capital ships. So blizzard is replacing the carrier with a unit that will suffer the exact same problem - it is countered by the exact same thing that colossus is, so you only use one of them. Browder seems to have no idea what he's doing. In the past I would have agreed with you. But not this time. The Nexus changes are going to be HUGE. How many times do you see a Protoss army snipe a hatchery only to be overwhelmed by wave after wave of Zerg units? Never again. EMP, Terran army stims... warp out 6 pool? Turn your nexus into a cannon. And the Oracle is going to be an awesome harass unit. Instantly shut down a mining base or completely stop production of a key unit. Terran and Zerg have some new options but they don't have a straight up buff like the Nexus changes provide. I'm not complaining about it being to weak, it's about bad design because only one of the two units will be used just like it is right now with the carrier/colossus. I don't care about how strong shit is, but how it will play out. And most of this new stuff is just horrible in that regard, it's like they just added a bunch of stuff because it sounds cool.
Didn't you listen to Dustin's explanation?
The whole point is they don't want YET ANOTHER unit to add to the Protoss deathball. If they gave them another DPS unit, or another spellcaster they'd just be making the deathball stronger and not address the real problems with Protoss late/mid game - harass and mobility.
So they made the Nexus changes and the Oracle to give mobility/harass without making the deathball even stronger.
I'm not sure about the replicator and I don't think Dustin is either. They said they aren't 100% sure about it yet but just wanted something cool that players could use if they wanted.
Not everything in the game needs to be used in 100% of pro games. It's quite cool when you see a rare DA in BW; SC2 could have that as well.
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On October 22 2011 20:09 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 20:07 CaptainCharisma wrote:On October 22 2011 19:52 Sawofhackness wrote:
So many nerds are going to throw such tantrums over this, take the usual patch whine and multiply it by a million
Neeyyyrr we can't deal with change.. neeyyyrr the game is now broken.. aaand so on and so forth
I for one welcome our new changes, it'll almost be like the beta all over again, everyone "rediscovering" the game, fun times!
I am also sick of all the naysayers. Why do some people have to be so quick to start trashing new ideas from Blizzard? Sure, something may look OP or useless now, but until this stuff is tested in professional games we don't know. And here's the good news! If something does turn out to be OP or useless, Blizzard has unlimited time to nerf or buff it. I'm tired of all these overly-reactionary nerds who think trashing Blizzard is the new black. Have faith - all things considered, at the very least Blizzard has produced a game that managed to attract hundreds, if not thousands, of screaming fans to watch the GSL Code S final today. HotS will screw things up for a while (aka provide some very interesting months of Starcraft). Most of us are not professional SC2 players and haven't invested our livelihoods into this game, so embrace the changes and enjoy the experience! This is a company, not a religion. You sound like another victim of marketing. If you have positive impressions, post them. But let the people who dislike the changes voice their opinion too. You should be ashamed of yourself for standing up for a corporation of all things.
I am not a victim of marketing, unless you consider the production of an extremely good game "marketing".
I'm not trying to stop people voicing their negative opinions, I'm merely voicing my opinion on why the whinging is stupid.
As for your last comment, it just seems dumb, a trait displayed by most of the posters in this thread, so I'm not surprised. There is noting inherently wrong in something being a corporation. Dustin and David are very prominent faces of Blizzard anyway, so if it makes you feel differently, just pretend I'm standing up for them instead.
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On October 22 2011 20:14 syllogism wrote:
The main issue with most of the complaints is that none of it is based on any actual knowledge regarding unit stats and such. For the most part, only the concepts are known, and yet people are making assertions about their in-game utility.
Not really you can easily complain about the concept of thor or the replicant, also you can question the role of e.g. the 300/300/6 tempest fleetbeacon required designed mutakiller. For those kind of complains there is not much more information required and im pretty sure Blizzard wants a lot of feedback from us even if much of it are complains.
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Tempest is just silly, how can a fleet beacon unit counter the Mutalisk? Even if you scout the spire immediately, building the beacon+ investing 300/300 in a unit that takes 75 Seconds to build? You've got to be kidding me. And a single one for sure can't handle like 10 Mutas, which your opponent will have for sure by the time that thing pops out of the starport.
Looks cool, but that's it. Not well thought out in my opinion.
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You aren't supposed to rush for tempest to deal with early game muta harass, don't be absurd. Just because it's great against muta flocks, doesn't mean that's its only role.
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i think most of these units get reworked, what they showed us is shit right now and cant go into a stable game but they know that they just wanna show sth because its blizzcon.
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On October 22 2011 20:25 SharkStarcraft wrote:
Tempest is just silly, how can a fleet beacon unit counter the Mutalisk? Even if you scout the spire immediately, building the beacon+ investing 300/300 in a unit that takes 75 Seconds to build? You've got to be kidding me. And a single one for sure can't handle like 10 Mutas, which your opponent will have for sure by the time that thing pops out of the starport.
Looks cool, but that's it. Not well thought out in my opinion.
I think it will more end up beeing a supplement unit to phoenixes against mutas.
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EPT
